Is DE starting to turn in the direction of P2W?

[Xerachiel]

This whole discussion would make sense if we weren't able to trade platinum.
But we can, so if you want to buy things with plat from the market, just sell a couple mods.

[(XBOX)COA Altair]

You can buy forma or build it as well.  Aura forma is a specialty item that you don't necessarily need unless you can actually enable multiple builds with it that wouldn't be achievable with just a single polarity.  I am SO glad they made aura forma buyable on the market, because seriously I have over 210 vitus essence or something?  Got 2 aura forma out of all that grinding, lost one because host migration failed.  On top of that, seems some people don't understand that good plat sinks are very necessary to keep inflation in check oh wait people sell riven mods for 30,000 plat on PC and primed chamber for 250K.  There is billions if not trillions of plat in circulation on pc alone.  This will hardly put a dent in it.  I'm sitting on 25K that I'm not really spending because no one has rivens I want and if they do have the riven I want they want some ludicrous price for it that I won't pay because said riven could be nerfed.  

[arolust]

Technically...

Warframe has been p2w always, its just so fair that no one really gives a ****. I mean, you could always just grab some plat, trade it and gain a huge advantage even without the store that would take another player weeks to grind for if not more.

Everything is p2w now adays, but at least warframe has been one of the most fair p2w games out there, you can fairly easily grind items and sell for plat without much issue, the store has managed to avoid loot boxes and other predatory purchases. 

[MrInubis]

4 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

So I guess you missed the part where that whole comparison thing was a response to SneakyErvin comparing kuva gains to endgame farming in other games? Or is that just more wilfull misinterpretation on your part?

His games were somehow relevant, with many similar aspects yours on the other hand were nowhere near that.  He is comparing F1 to Nascar, you are comparing it to scuba diving.

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

On 2019-08-31 at 7:54 AM, Knight_Ex said:

"I understand the argument of P2W in a PVE game not being relevant"

Lmfao. Why does this post even exist when you admit your own question isn't viable??? Fyi, there's absolutely nothing in the game you "need" to buy or P2W. You dont even need extra slots.  We just want then so we have more space and not delete other items. Plus plat can very easily be gain without real money. Plat is used to get like 97% of everything. Of which again,  you don't "need" to "win"... you pay for convenience.  

Pay to win is about player v player games that lock items behind paywall, likely with no trading alllowed. When the game doesn't give you items strong enough to defeat another player unless you buy items with real world money. Waframe has no such gimmicks. You can complete every single part of the game and get most special items without paying for anything. 

Edited September 6, 2019 by (XB1)Phantom Clip

[Mints]

What exactly are you paying to win? A 4 player cooperative game that is, by its very design, essentially non-competitive? This thread is a joke.

[(PSN)Paholanani_X]

2 minutes ago, Mints said:

What exactly are you paying to win? A 4 player cooperative game that is, by its very design, essentially non-competitive? This thread is a joke.

Winning Fashion Frame. Duh

[Goodwill]

To be fair, even a non-competitive PvE game can still fall under predatory monetary practices. Winning can simply mean winning the game and does not necessarily refer to over another player.

But Warframe mitigates this by the ability to trade premium currency but there are lots of issues with that though. Most notably that people who spend money on this game have less value than people who don't.

Example: there are 2 players with 20k plat. One player who payed $100 for 2000 plat and traded for the rest, the other who got all their plat through trading. At the end of it all, the player who paid for their plat loses $100 and the free2play player loses nothing. They both have access to the exact same items as well.

Paying real money in Warframe is losing. It's much more cheaper and efficient to trade.

Now if FashionFrame actually had any gameplay benefit, then maybe something else could be argued.

[(XBOX)Dex Xean]

1 hour ago, Goodwill said:

To be fair, even a non-competitive PvE game can still fall under predatory monetary practices. Winning can simply mean winning the game and does not necessarily refer to over another player.

But Warframe mitigates this by the ability to trade premium currency but there are lots of issues with that though. Most notably that people who spend money on this game have less value than people who don't.

Example: there are 2 players with 20k plat. One player who payed $100 for 2000 plat and traded for the rest, the other who got all their plat through trading. At the end of it all, the player who paid for their plat loses $100 and the free2play player loses nothing. They both have access to the exact same items as well.

Paying real money in Warframe is losing. It's much more cheaper and efficient to trade.

Now if FashionFrame actually had any gameplay benefit, then maybe something else could be argued.

I see buying plat with real money as supporting the game in my eyes. If no1 ever spent money there would not be a market. Also I find it easier to take 1-3 hours of my work pay a week to spend it on plat vs sitting in trade chat dealing with ppl. It is a much better use of my time. Also I dont always spend money its usually only when prime accessories I like come out I decide to spend real money then.

Edited September 6, 2019 by (XB1)Dex Xean

[Goodwill]

Just now, (XB1)Dex Xean said:

I see buying plat with real money as supporting the game in my eyes. If no1 ever spent money there would not be a market. Also I find it easier to take 1-3 hours of my work pay a week to spend it on plat vs sitting in trade chat dealing with ppla much better use of my time. Also I dont always spend money its usually only when prime accessories I like come out I decide to spend real money then.

Me personally, I buy plat out of support for DE rather than any need of it to play the game. Also helps that Prime Access also gives a healthy amount of plat that one full purchase could set you for life.

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

1 hour ago, Goodwill said:

 

But Warframe mitigates this by the ability to trade premium currency but there are lots of issues with that though. Most notably that people who spend money on this game have less value than people who don't.

Example: there are 2 players with 20k plat. One player who payed $100 for 2000 plat and traded for the rest, the other who got all their plat through trading. At the end of it all, the player who paid for their plat loses $100 and the free2play player loses nothing. They both have access to the exact same items as well.

 

Person who $100 for plat, winning by giving support to the game and allowing developers to continue to give us free game and content.  And they CHOSE to pay to have INSTANT PLAT. No gameplay , grinding or trading required.  They can instantly buy what they want from market or chat. That's an advatage. But what they lose is the experience of trade practices and prices. They are very likely to pay high prices from scammers. Like 400p for a Mirage warframe or 2k for a talons riven. Person who traded had to actually play the game, advance far into the game for good items. They had to grind missions then buy and sell items for who knows how long.  Same time, they are less likely to be cheated on bad deals. 

 

But both still have the same odds,rng,luck.  Neither have a significant advantage over the other. 1 just paid for instant plat which also helps the game for f2p players.  The other who grinded likely played with others as a team at some point which adds to the player base.  

[nslay]

10 minutes ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

Person who $100 for plat, winning by giving support to the game and allowing developers to continue to give us free game and content.  And they CHOSE to pay to have INSTANT PLAT. No gameplay , grinding or trading required.  They can instantly buy what they want from market or chat. That's an advatage. But what they lose is the experience of trade practices and prices. They are very likely to pay high prices from scammers. Like 400p for a Mirage warframe or 2k for a talons riven. Person who traded had to actually play the game, advance far into the game for good items. They had to grind missions then buy and sell items for who knows how long.  Same time, they are less likely to be cheated on bad deals. 

 

But both still have the same odds,rng,luck.  Neither have a significant advantage over the other. 1 just paid for instant plat which also helps the game for f2p players.  The other who grinded likely played with others as a team at some point which adds to the player base.  

Or, you know... Just ignore the plat and use it to buy slots when needed. And trade items for items the old fashioned way (especially with all the bad plat horror stories on the forums).

I gave DE the price of an old fashion AAA game with expansion. I got a pile of plat that's essentially a decorative number at the top right. And it goes exclusively into slots! Everything else I get by grinding and waiting... like what I used to do in Diablo 3.

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

13 minutes ago, nslay said:

Or, you know... Just ignore the plat and use it to buy slots when needed. And trade items for items the old fashioned way (especially with all the bad plat horror stories on the forums).

I gave DE the price of an old fashion AAA game with expansion. I got a pile of plat that's essentially a decorative number at the top right. And it goes exclusively into slots! Everything else I get by grinding and waiting... like what I used to do in Diablo 3.

Im on xbox, less worry about bad plat and trading Item for item is very hard. Loki sys worth more than chroma bp. On xbox, people always want to give you crap and get the premium item .  Almost never worth it. I rather sell Loki sys at 70p -90p and buy chroma bp at 5-10p. When trade often,  you know to just wait for fair deals.  Sometimes it's 10min. Sometimes it's 1 week or more. Everyone online at the time you ate trading don't always have you need or want what you have. Trading is somewhat better , more fair at night when the kids are offline 

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

42 minutes ago, nslay said:

 

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by (XB1)Phantom Clip
Duplicate

[Goodwill]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

And they CHOSE to pay to have INSTANT PLAT. No gameplay , grinding or trading required.

Know that I agree with most that you said but I thought I pick apart this.

You make it sound like paying players have an instant $100 lying around. A lot of players have to grind irl to get that $100 to get that plat. So I'd disagree it's instant plat. If I'm having a month of bills, insurance and rego, then I won't be able to afford "instant" plat for a month.

I'm arguing semantics here and your point still kind of stands if we take away that fact.

 

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

44 minutes ago, Goodwill said:

Know that I agree with most that you said but I thought I pick apart this.

You make it sound like paying players have an instant $100 lying around. A lot of players have to grind irl to get that $100 to get that plat. So I'd disagree it's instant plat. If I'm having a month of bills, insurance and rego, then I won't be able to afford "instant" plat for a month.

I'm arguing semantics here and your point still kind of stands if we take away that 

I'm saying paying players make a choice to buy in game currency. PAYING FOR PLATINUM IS NOT NECESSARY. Only some fashion is locked behind real money purchase. If they don't have a clear $100 to waste on buying plat in a free to play game, maybe they should reflect on life chocies. Nothing is stopping anyone from FREE trading for plat . NEVER must plat be bought. You can get plat in a 100% free fashion just buy trading the items you find or get by playing the game. Trading is a part of the game DE expects you to use. But If want , you can avoid alot of trading for plat buy choosing to buy it. 

It's instant because you get the plat the moment you pay for it.   As f2p, I have to get items and then TRY to trade them for plat. Sometimes it takes 20 seconds , sometimes 15min. Other times it may take for me to wait till after 5 o'clock or the weekend when more traders are online.

If you saving up money to buy plat , maybe you not playing the game. Because if you ARE playing the game while saving money,  just save up items to trade for plat and keep your money. 

Im not sure why people would ever choose to pay for items you get for free.  But they do pay. If anything,  buy a prime vault pack so you can have items f2p players can't get and you get some plat.  That way you have something to show that you supported the game by spending money.  

 

And a BIG thank you to all who use real money. They support me playing for free

Edited September 6, 2019 by (XB1)Phantom Clip

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

4 hours ago, Goodwill said:

To be fair, even a non-competitive PvE game can still fall under predatory monetary practices. Winning can simply mean winning the game and does not necessarily refer to over another player.

But Warframe mitigates this by the ability to trade premium currency but there are lots of issues with that though. Most notably that people who spend money on this game have less value than people who don't.

Example: there are 2 players with 20k plat. One player who payed $100 for 2000 plat and traded for the rest, the other who got all their plat through trading. At the end of it all, the player who paid for their plat loses $100 and the free2play player loses nothing. They both have access to the exact same items as well.

Paying real money in Warframe is losing. It's much more cheaper and efficient to trade.

Now if FashionFrame actually had any gameplay benefit, then maybe something else could be argued.

We're paying for the convenience/time saved. Of course anyone can dedicate 80% of their time to something, but I have other things to do.

[SordidDreams]

6 hours ago, kuciol said:

His games were somehow relevant, with many similar aspects yours on the other hand were nowhere near that.  He is comparing F1 to Nascar, you are comparing it to scuba diving.

Yes, because my point was that his comparisons were picked specifically for that similarity, and I demonstrated that point by picking comparisons for dissimilarity. Anything else you'd like me to explain in more detail?

[SilentMobius]

On 2019-08-31 at 3:54 PM, Knight_Ex said:

 is quite a bit disheartening

Not for me.

I don't believe that DE put things in the store in response to people who say that acquisition of X takes too long. I think they do that for people who don't want to run that content at all.

Edited September 6, 2019 by SilentMobius

[SneakyErvin]

12 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

You're stretching the definition of that term beyond all reason. Yes, technically all those games are ARPGs in that they are RPGs with action combat (as opposed to some turn-based system), but that kind of literalist interpretation refutes itself when you realize you barely do any roleplaying at all in any of those games. The reality is that ARPG is very much a synonym for Diablo-clone; the actual words from which the acronym is composed are irrelevant, it's basically idiomatic at this point.

No. No, it can't.

Diablo 1 is one of my favorite games of all time, and as such I can tell you with 100% certainty that you're wrong. D1 was a very, very different game from D2 and its successors. Grinding for resources was just not a thing that existed in D1, because there simply weren't any besides gold, and you'd easily end up with literally more of it than you could carry (what with it taking up inventory space).

Having played Titan Quest, I really don't understand why people are so enamored with it. It's complete garbage in almost every way, even in comparison to games that came out earlier than it. And no, no derivative game can ever be 'up there' with genre-defining titles.

Ah, I see. I thought you were misusing the word to mean "resources", since that's grinding for resources to obtain gameplay-affecting items is kinda what the whole conversation was about. That's why I was confused, because you can get everything that affects gameplay without buying or trading for plat at all. Nobody in the course of this entire conversation said anything about cosmetics, which are the only thing you need plat for, so I don't know why you brought those up. Though since you have, I feel obliged to point out there are some you can't get with plat (e.g. Prime Accessories).

You dont do much roleplaying in which of them? NW, ST, Arena and any Elder Scrolls game after that are very heavy on the RPG part. Or do you mean that you dont do much roleplaying in games like D1, D2 and D3? Brevik would also very much disagree with you in that arpg is a synonym for Diablo-clone. You know the man that invented D1, D2 and Hellgate London aswell as the defining key parts of Marvel Heroes. The man that is currently doing a 2D "side scroller" arpg.

No. No, it cant, what? I'm highly confused. Are you even familiar with the 3 endgame rarities in D3? Well it should be 6 if you count set items, which dilutes the pool even more for certain classes.

I'm talking about the loot hunt in general of arpgs. It has always been there.

That is your opinion.

Nope, cosmetics is not what I'm talking about. You complained about boosters, which is something you can get for free in several different ways by just playing, thus reducing your grind for the resources that you complain have such low yield. You also need it for slots etc. So everything that effects gameplay and efficiency can be obtained easily for free.

[KikuVasNormandy]

Well... let me put mu gran of salt here, as a almost MR26 player (and not almost MR27 because I intentionally I´m being slow about it).

Between plat trading and the free stuff that DE gaves in game, drops, events, etc... I don´t see any way what WF can be P2W. Dozens of Formas, reactors, catalytis, boosters, slots... DE has give me some many stuff for free what I have l lost the count and I even trade plat to buy things from the store like the Domestic Drones, Shawzins and some cosmetics (about to buy Gauss syndana.. already farmed him and Acceltra).

At best, you can say "pay to skip" since you can buy a booster to get something done a bit more quickly like using a 3 days resource booster to farm a bit more quickly cryotic for the Sibear or some piigments for your dojo but at the same time.. I have already received so many resource booster for free that is like returning the favor at this point (same applies to other boosters).

[MrInubis]

6 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Yes, because my point was that his comparisons were picked specifically for that similarity, and I demonstrated that point by picking comparisons for dissimilarity. Anything else you'd like me to explain in more detail?

Thats how you make comparisons in the first place. You pick something similar. Also you gave ME Skyrim as example of non P2W game, that alone shows how out of touch you are. You so called explanations show more and more that you dont know what you are talking about, you keep bringing completely irrelevant things and pretend like that proves something. Newsflash, it doesnt and you are wrong.

[SordidDreams]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You dont do much roleplaying in which of them? NW, ST, Arena and any Elder Scrolls game after that are very heavy on the RPG part. Or do you mean that you dont do much roleplaying in games like D1, D2 and D3?

The Diablo series has no roleplaying in it whatsoever, it's just a hack-and-slash action game where you upgrade your stats and gear.

Elder Scrolls is a bit better, but roleplaying opportunities are generally limited to the occasional persuasion check, which allows you to get what you want immediately instead of having to do a minor fetch quest. In Skyrim, the only major roleplaying choices are whether to join the Empire or the Stormcloaks and whether to kill Paarthurnax or not. There's generally no way to refuse quests, the game just keeps giving them to you at every turn with the expectation that you're going to want to finish all of them. Heck, you can't even avoid joining the mages guild, since the main quest requires you to go in, and there's no "I don't want to join, I'm just here to talk to your librarian" dialogue option. And sure, you can just ignore quests you don't want to do, but that's not the same as refusing them. They'll still be marked incomplete in your journal, the NPCs in the college will forever stand around waiting for you to show up for your first lesson, etc.; the game will not acknowledge your refusal. You could say roleplaying happens in your head, not in the game, so the game doesn't need to acknowledge your choice, but then literally any game could be called an RPG, because you can always imagine things happening that don't exist in the game regardless of what kind of game you're playing. The game giving you choices and acknowledging your decision is what makes an RPG.

Incidentally, this is why WF isn't an RPG. Roleplaying choices in WF are limited to a handful of quests with very simple black/grey/white choices that have no consequences beyond the cutscene they happen in.

The others I haven't played, so I can't comment much, but I would be very surprised if they were any different.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Brevik would also very much disagree with you in that arpg is a synonym for Diablo-clone. You know the man that invented D1, D2 and Hellgate London aswell as the defining key parts of Marvel Heroes. The man that is currently doing a 2D "side scroller" arpg.

I'm doubtful you can credibly speak for that man, and his opinion doesn't really matter to me anyway. The inventor of the .gif file format thinks it should be pronounced "jif"; I wasn't persuaded by that, I don't see why I should be by this.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No. No, it cant, what? I'm highly confused. Are you even familiar with the 3 endgame rarities in D3? Well it should be 6 if you count set items, which dilutes the pool even more for certain classes.

Legendary, ancient, primal? I'm a bit lost myself now.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm talking about the loot hunt in general of arpgs. It has always been there.

Not to such a degree. Diablo 1 only had seven equipment slots, one or two magic affixes per item drawn from a very limited pool of possible affixes, unique items with fixed stats, and no crafting system of any kind. It seems to me ARPG devs think that making a better ARPG means making the systems more and more complex, giving items more and more stats with more and more possible affixes, thereby increasing the role of RNG, thereby decreasing the percentage of usable items in drops. It's gone so far that modern ARPGs include elaborate item filters, because 99.9% of items that drop are complete garbage not even worth picking up. Needless to say I think this design philosophy is misguided.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is your opinion.

Not all opinions are created equal.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Nope, cosmetics is not what I'm talking about. You complained about boosters, which is something you can get for free in several different ways by just playing, thus reducing your grind for the resources that you complain have such low yield. You also need it for slots etc. So everything that effects gameplay and efficiency can be obtained easily for free.

I guess that depends on your definition of "easily". Also, there's more to fun than difficulty. Just because something's easy doesn't mean it's not tedious, and that also kills the fun.

2 hours ago, kuciol said:

Thats how you make comparisons in the first place. You pick something similar. Also you gave ME Skyrim as example of non P2W game, that alone shows how out of touch you are. You so called explanations show more and more that you dont know what you are talking about, you keep bringing completely irrelevant things and pretend like that proves something. Newsflash, it doesnt and you are wrong.

So you're saying Skyrim is pay-to-win? A bold stance to take, I must say, especially for someone who goes around telling others they don't know what they're talking about.

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by SordidDreams

[nslay]

1 hour ago, kuciol said:

Thats how you make comparisons in the first place. You pick something similar. Also you gave ME Skyrim as example of non P2W game, that alone shows how out of touch you are. You so called explanations show more and more that you dont know what you are talking about, you keep bringing completely irrelevant things and pretend like that proves something. Newsflash, it doesnt and you are wrong.

Oh, nobody pointed out the blatantly obvious Diablo 3 that has 0 microtransactions or similar? The one that that shuttered Auction House and locked down trading to the point that it's practically impossible? You can trade an item for 1 hour after finding it to only up to 3 other players who happened to be playing the game with you when you found it.

I said it already, but the Diablo 3 community would never tolerate most of the microtransactions Warframe has. You can argue Prime Access being akin to a DLC (i.e. as if Warframes are synonymous to character classes), but boosters, lenses, etc... almost every Diablo 3 player will call that P2W. And when I mention good experiences about Warframe? They always dig up the new player packages on Warframe.com that cost money and call that P2W (and they're not completely wrong).

Also, aside of the isometric perspective, Diablo 3 and Warframe are extremely similar! To not see this hints that you are not familiar with one or both of these games. They're both loot hunters, they're both horde killers, both have notions of character classes with abilities (Character Classes vs Warframes), they both have character progression (Paragon+Caldesann's Despair vs Focus+Forma), they both have rare item-supercharging items (Ramaladni's Gift vs Reactors/Catalysts), they both have customizable weapons (Weapons with RNG attributes with one attribute re-rollable by Mystic vs Weapons + Mods), they both have re-rollable weapon attributes (Kanai's Cube's Law of Kulle vs Riven re-rolls), they both have infinitely scaling content (Greater Rifts vs Endless missions), they both have transmutation (Kanai's Cube's upgrade rare item vs Mod transmutation).

Lastly, they both share many of the same problems! Well gee... because they're similar!

- Warframe has a Meta and only certain frames, weapons and mods are really useful and powerful <---> Diablo 3 has a Meta and only certain character classes, items and item attributes are really useful and powerful.

- Warframe has severe power creep due to fans demanding more power <---> Diablo 3 has severe power creep due to fans demanding more power.

- Warframe players hate farming Kuva and re-rolling Rivens <---> Diablo 3 players complain about farming 50 forgotten souls and hate running 25 bounties for 3 re-roll attempts.

 

Warframe actually does a lot of things right that Diablo 3 got wrong... For all of Diablo 3's simplicity, I actually think Warframe is easier and more enjoyable (definitely ridiculously easier to farm for many things). If you'd like, I can tell you the things Warframe does better!

[MrInubis]

37 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

So you're saying Skyrim is pay-to-win? A bold stance to take, I must say, especially for someone who goes around telling others they don't know what they're talking about.

1. Its irrelevant to the topic because it has nothing in common with warframe. 2.It has items locked behind payed DLC so in a sense it is P2W. 3. Its B2P game in the first place and not live service F2P one

Thats why your comparison is stupid and all your points irrelevant. Stop embarrassing yourself any further. 

34 minutes ago, nslay said:

said it already, but the Diablo 3 community would never tolerate most of the microtransactions Warframe has. You can argue Prime Access being akin to a DLC (i.e. as if Warframes are synonymous to character classes), but boosters, lenses, etc... almost every Diablo 3 player will call that P2W. And when I mention good experiences about Warframe? They always dig up the new player packages on Warframe.com that cost money and call that P2W (and they're not completely wrong).

Necro DLC was a thing and thats as P2W as it gets. Also thats B2P game in the first place so micro-transactions of any kind are retarded.  Again its not about what game sells but how it is built overall that makes it P2W or not. The simple fact that you can easily get everything without spending a dime makes all your points wrong. P2W occours when you MUST spend money, be it items being locked completely behind pay wall or grind for them is just obscene. Nothing like that happens in warframe. Diablo 3 has ladders when Warframe does not, Diablo has seasons and warframe does not. That alone is enough for item acquisition to not matter. Your definitions of P2W is wrong in its core. It includes any and all in game purchases that are not purely cosmetic (such game doesnt exist) while completely ignoring alternative methods and time of acquisition. Again its not about what the game sells, its about how pressured you are to shell out money. If you are not forced to do it to be successful  then game is not P2W. Period.

Edited September 6, 2019 by kuciol