Heat procs shouldn't reduce armor

[Xhobract]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb MPonder:

Oh look at those void ferrite enemies, they are not weak against viral/heat, oh wait:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Corrupted_Butcher
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Corrupted_Heavy_Gunner

An example with a Corrupted Heavy Gunner lvl 100 (7332.33 armor = 96.07% dmg reduction):

Cloned Flesh takes 75% more dmg from Viral. Ferrite armor also gets a 75% bonus and additionally the armor is reduced to 25% of its value before any further dmg calculations when using Corrosive. We'll assume weapons modded for 1000 viral and 1000 corrosive dmg:

1000 viral * 1.75 * (1 - 0.9607) = 68.775 dmg dealt

1000 corrosive * 1.75 * (1 - 7332.33 * 0.25 / (7332.33 * 0.25 + 300)) = 246.122 dmg dealt

But luckily they are "weak" against viral, right?

[Marvelous_A]

Don't really care..I mean the root reason is the ridiculous armor scaling but since DE isn't going to fix that soon, I will take the fire proc buff over anything else.

[MPonder]

@DeMonkey

You really used Bladed instead of Vile Acceleration on that Boltor example, really? Primed Faction mods plz. DPSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS, not dmg per shot plz.

Funny. Also funny that you used a enemy that is weak against corrosive just to make the example better to you. Funny, really funny.

That heat final dmg is wrong by the way (Heavy Gunner Lv60 armor = 3017.36): 46 x 2.65 x 1.9 x 0.9 = 208.449 x 0.090433356645043 = 18.85074275930258 x 1.25 (from cloned flesh bonus) = 23.56342844912822

Edited October 7, 2019 by MPonder

[MPonder]

"basic understanding of the games modding"

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, MPonder said:

You really used Bladed instead of Vile Acceleration on that Boltor example, really?

Correct, because it's hard to DPPS1111!!11 when you haven't got any ammo.

Primed Faction mod won't make up for the overwhelming difference in damage.

It is as I figured, you wrote it off for arbitrary reasons.

"Use 2 of these 3 mods"

*Uses 2 of the 3 mods*

"You didn't use the correct 2 mods, reeeeee. You used an enemy that suits your argument, which is exactly what we've been discussing, reeeee"

3 minutes ago, MPonder said:

That heat final dmg is wrong by the way (Heavy Gunner Lv60 armor = 3017.36): 46 x 2.65 x 1.9 x 0.9 = 208.449 x 0.090433356645043 = 18.85074275930258 x 1.25 (from cloned flesh bonus) = 23.56342844912822

A basic understanding of modding... you lack it.

Could you actually, you know, listen to any of the numerous people telling you that you're wrong? Would make life easier.

2 minutes ago, MPonder said:

"basic understanding of the games modding"

I mean, you keep saying that to try and mock me and yet you keep displaying that you do not have a basic understanding.

Congratulations, you played yourself.

Edited October 7, 2019 by DeMonkey

[MPonder]

27 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

" we've been discussing, reeeee"

Discussing about stripping armor, so using a mob that was neutral to both elements on the armor part and maybe on the flesh part would be fair, but ok, let's use the one that you ignore 75% of its armor while still getting 75% bonus will do.

There is not just ferrite armor in the game.
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Ghoul_Devourer
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Bombard

Edited October 7, 2019 by MPonder

[DeMonkey]

5 minutes ago, MPonder said:

Discussing about armor

Really? Because I've been discussing Ferrite armour the whole time. Were you not paying attention?

12 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

If, say, an enemy has 5,000 ferrite armour

Here.

2 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Ferrite armour is not weak to heat or viral.

Here.

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

Ferrite armour enemies, or rather, "enemies currently possessing Ferrite armour", are not weak to viral/heat.

And here.

Those are all instances of me arguing and discussing within the realms of "ferrite armour" and led to my math containing an enemy who has Ferrite armour. Why are you having so much trouble following this?

8 minutes ago, MPonder said:

There is not just ferrite armor in the game.

Thanks Sherlock, whatever would we do without you.

If only I had said.

"For 180% (or more) additional damage that ignores 75% of ferrite armour, and gets a 75% damage boost on top of that." in response to your question as to why you would use two slots for corrosive damage.

If only I had specified that I was talking about Ferrite armour the entire time, if only I had... Wait, I did do that.

You don't know basic modding, you struggle with the math and now you're having trouble reading... Either there's a serious problem here or you're trolling.

[MPonder]

@DeMonkey

We are in a thread about "heat procs shouldn't reduce armor"

I type

"IF both remove armor, but heat do DoT, why I would waste 2 slots on corrosive while also having fire, there are so many good mods that I could put in place actually that I don't usually use because of space, like Vile Acceleraton, Bladed Rounds, Faction Dmg mods, maybe I'll finally try hunter munitions, I'll probably be able to put a reload mod on the exilus slot that will come with the update"

Which both are about armor stripping.

and then, someone reply, and all you were doing was using "use this dmg type against that enemie that is weak against that dmg type" all this time?????

Think we have really some reading problems

Edited October 7, 2019 by MPonder

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, MPonder said:

IF both remove armor, but heat do DoT, why I would waste 2 slots on corrosive while also having fire

Read below, again.

21 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

For 180% (or more) additional damage that ignores 75% of ferrite armour, and gets a 75% damage boost on top of that.

Please note that armour stripping generally isn't instantaneous, and, as I point out, Corrosive allows for a consistently greater damage against Ferrite enemies until the armour is actually broken.

That's your reason.

3 minutes ago, MPonder said:

Think we have really some reading problems

Hahahaha. A "no u" response. Classic.

[0_The_F00l]

41 minutes ago, MPonder said:

Discussing about stripping armor, so using a mob that was neutral to both elements on the armor part and maybe on the flesh part would be fair, but ok, let's use the one that you ignore 75% of its armor while still getting 75% bonus will do.

There is not just ferrite armor in the game.
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Ghoul_Devourer
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Bombard

I have made a video using sybaris P (cause it has the most balanced IPS)

tested against both bombards and heavy gunners and you can see the effect of the damages yourself.

if you disagree you can try to show me the build which you believe is better.

against gunners

against bombards

 

[SneakyErvin]

26 minutes ago, MPonder said:

I type

"IF both remove armor, but heat do DoT, why I would waste 2 slots on corrosive while also having fire, there are so many good mods that I could put in place actually that I don't usually use because of space, like Vile Acceleraton, Bladed Rounds, Faction Dmg mods, maybe I'll finally try hunter munitions, I'll probably be able to put a reload mod on the exilus slot that will come with the update"

Which both are about armor stripping.

Because heat will do piss poor damage until all the armor is removed and the mob switches over to cloned flesh health instead of ferrite health. The wiki entry that states that even armored cloned flesh is weak to viral, heat and slash is either outdated or refers to Ghouls and Saturn Six Fugitives only.

It has been tested again and again (even comments in the wiki section bring it to light) that armor needs to be removed fully before the negatives/positives of the second health type are in play. Hence why corrosive and radiation damage bonuses to ferrite/alloy are removed when the target hits zero armor.

[MPonder]

@0_The_F00l

Don't think you can test right now, the test need to be done with th fire proc update.

@SneakyErvin

Ok, good to know.

[SovereignLord]

If the "heat" is hot enough to melt armor, then shouldn't it be able to cook what's inside that hot armor? Lots of people saying that heat will be temporary armor stripper (like viral is for health), but why not make it to where it has a true damage potential instead? Like say a proc ticks at 50% of just what the heat damage was as true damage? So it's not copying slash, but still has major potential?

 

 

We wouldn't have to come up with silly procs if they would fix the way enemies scale with just limitless amounts of armor.

[MPonder]

@0_The_F00l

0:27-0:38 - 11 sec more or less kill with Viral/Heat (now), 1:08-1:19 - 11 sec more or less Kill with corrosive/Heat on bombards. Seems the same to me if the enemy armor is neutral to the weapon elements.

[dwqrf]

Incoming protoshield buff or ingame presence will rekt the Corro/fire meta.

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, MPonder said:

@0_The_F00l

0:27-0:38 - 11 sec more or less kill with Viral/Heat (now), 1:08-1:19 - 11 sec more or less Kill with corrosive/Heat on bombards. Seems the same to me if the enemy armor is neutral to the weapon elements.

Emphasis was more on the per hit damage

they are identical builds for all stats except one being viral and one being corrosive. Even the IPS is balanced out as much as possible.

summarized as below:

		Gunner		Bombard
		Body	Head	Body	Head
IPS+ Viral + heat	Regular	42	84	34	68
	Crit	185	741	149	597
IPS+ corrosive+ heat	Regular	91	182	26	53
	Crit	401	1604	116	462

Corrosive damage is before the first corrosive proc hits , as is obvious it keeps scaling higher with each additional proc. but viral damage stays the same throughout.

The reason the corrupted was killed so quickly by viral is due to the effect of status effects , this was not a Time to Kill experiment , that would need a lot more diverse set and more than just 2 enemies each.

The gunner may have been killed quickly too , if the viral and slash procs were refreshed consistently.

i assure you the results with no slash procs will be very different , if my objective was to show pure time to kill effect of elements against armor.

 I would have used a weapon with no slash procs at all for that purpose.

Edited October 7, 2019 by 0_The_F00l

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, SovereignLord said:

If the "heat" is hot enough to melt armor, then shouldn't it be able to cook what's inside that hot armor? Lots of people saying that heat will be temporary armor stripper (like viral is for health), but why not make it to where it has a true damage potential instead? Like say a proc ticks at 50% of just what the heat damage was as true damage? So it's not copying slash, but still has major potential?

 

 

We wouldn't have to come up with silly procs if they would fix the way enemies scale with just limitless amounts of armor.

50% is too high i believe it would go beyond slash territory. less than 25% would be more suitable.

and yes , do agree on the broken armor stats , or more accurately only armor being effective for DR and shields being weak.

[Hexsing]

I'm just finding this whole thing trivialized certain frames whos debuffs were designed specifically to strip armor.

Mag, Saryn, Nyx (is really quite hurt by this because this was a niche thing she could do)  there are others as well. 

I'm not opposed to fire melting an armor type. Maybe corrosive will affect one type and fire another.

But if fire is to offer this.  Then the armor stripping abilities of frames may need a looksie.  

I mean.  I can use a pox or scourge and an stamps or even a high status melee weapon like the Lacera.   To melt armor down pretty quick. 

Frame abilites really suffer from this.

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, Hexsing said:

I'm just finding this whole thing trivialized certain frames whos debuffs were designed specifically to strip armor.

Mag, Saryn, Nyx (is really quite hurt by this because this was a niche thing she could do)  there are others as well. 

I'm not opposed to fire melting an armor type. Maybe corrosive will affect one type and fire another.

But if fire is to offer this.  Then the armor stripping abilities of frames may need a looksie.  

I mean.  I can use a pox or scourge and an stamps or even a high status melee weapon like the Lacera.   To melt armor down pretty quick. 

Frame abilites really suffer from this.

not sure i agree it will affect frames , corrosive already existed to strip armor and most of the frames are fine. I do not see any significant change to frames irrespective of how the heat procs change

, i do see a possible change to how players build weapons for elemental damage depending on actual mechanic that finally gets applied.

[Hexsing]

I guess my point was that Frames who use armor stripping as a base mechanic or a nich mechanic become less desirable if armor stripping is so readily available as a debuff from corrosive or heat.

Sure you can build for just crit.  But with corrosive projectile and at least one arnor stripping weapon it basically negates the need for those types of powers.  

The frame Will still be useable.  It just removes the need for a niche skill.

Modding for Psychic bolds for example is not necessary to begin with.  Now it's less necessary.   

This applies to others who have arnor stripping in their kit as well.  For example Vouban. His rework adds arnor stripping which is no longer really needed.   

[Hexsing]

27 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

not sure i agree it will affect frames , corrosive already existed to strip armor and most of the frames are fine. I do not see any significant change to frames irrespective of how the heat procs change

, i do see a possible change to how players build weapons for elemental damage depending on actual mechanic that finally gets applied.

Whoops double post on my part

[seprent]

6 hours ago, (PS4)de_sch0sch said:

The change to stacking damage is good. With fire removing armor as well they've overtuned it.

I would have prefered to have a unique touch to Ember. It's Missed oppotrunity imho.

The rework imho addressed the weaknesses of her kit but seems to be overshadowed by the buffs of fire procs

Counter argument before breakfast (warning may contain higher than normal stupid levels)

toxin is over tuned to deal with the corpus since it flat out ignores everything to do with their 2 layered health types of shields/flesh it the damage itself its proc everything about it just ignores the shield which in most cases its a majority of their health its why toxin ancient is so deadly to some frames 

Fire could be the response element to the grineer it melts armor, makes them panic, and burns them with a fire dot the fire damage is not ignoring armor it still reduced just that when it procs it will melt some armor with it temp or perm over time or all at once are details we will need to make hard calls on it

Side note: i feel their doing heat procs in general because if they made it exclusive to ember they would have to add specific lines for ember so you would have Heat damage (normal) then Heat damage (Ember) no other element based frame does this and people would complain why not just give it to fire procs in general since ember rn like every other warframe uses non special elements in the game IE: the element they deal is the same as the one you can put on your weapons.

Fire did kinda get the short end of the stick out of all the elements non stacking only does a panic that seems to not work about half the time the only element that kinda outweighs what little fire procs bring to the table is magnetic as its only effective against one whole faction as only they predominantly use shields and void damage but that can be overlooked due to its proc being bullet attractor.

[seprent]

3 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Incoming protoshield buff or ingame presence will rekt the Corro/fire meta.

oh no a whole 17 enemies are going to get a buff (10 being bosses) 

[kevoisvevo]

On 2019-10-06 at 10:51 AM, JackHargreav said:

Heat melts stuff. Heat melts metal for example. Armor is metal so, heat melts armor. Armor is melted then armor is reduced.

I might as well add that just making enemies more vulnerable to fire wouldn't be useful at all. Since their armor will just outscale whatever dmg you do to them. If you melt their armor -as fire should do- then you can deal actual damage.

And also your idea would make an arcane pointless. So good job on that one.

by your logic, electricity produces heat so it should too remove armor. 

[VanFanel1980mx]

On 2019-10-06 at 2:42 AM, (PS4)Shustas said:

Is de out of ideas? Hm lets see we have this fire thingy that nobody uses but everyone uses corrosive hm oh oh oh lets make fire corrosive. Oh and magnetic best idea is to make it corrosive as well. Damage v3 done. Tara

Actually I think Magnetic should jam enemy weapons, this would make magnetic something usable against grineer, now when it comes to infested I am still trying to figure out, maybe even give them accuracy penalty.