DragoonStorm1 Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 (edited) Now I'm not much of a forum poster so I hope this is the right place But the Devstream and the Workshop notes got me thinking. The nerf to CO, namely that it will cap out at 3 status procs... feels terrible..at first. I had to do some math (and I can't account for the nerf they will bring to Blood Rush numerically or mechanically) In the end, I made a spreadsheet to calculate across combo counter and CO status procs, and very importantly, base damage buffs across the board (which I'm extrapolating a value of 3x from the skana shown in the stream. I know the numbers are placeholder, but just using it as a guide, they gave it a 3x buff. (oh on double checking, it looks like a 3.4x buff. Well I made that cell editable in my spreadsheet) From what I've seen so far, EDIT: UPDATED with latest Prime Time info that CO will buff at 120% <spoiler contains redundant info from previous assumptions> Spoiler The buffed versions do really great on all of the Starchart, with minimal work, and hopefully easier combo multiplier (as long as it still buffs melee damage) gains. Even with only 3-status stacking on CO. BUT On tougher stuff that right now requires us to have 2-3.5x combo multiplier and/or stack 7+ status procs... the present model wins out. Why does this matter? Because the present status of Melee encourages mixing in primaries/secondaries into your melee playstyle to gather up status procs. And most fun of all, is when warframe abilities add to the status proc diversity. Even companion weapons/claws really can add to the melee scaling. (and this encouraged dynamic gameplay, using all tools at our disposal. Making Blast viable. Making weps with I+P+S also very useful, as opposed to only slash or only elemental) (Even operator amps with void status and/or amp arcanes made huge differences! And feeling their relevance is great.) And that's the important thing. As it is right now, it scales. As it will be, CO does not scale. It has a cap. And as we know, enemy scaling is definitely an issue warframe grapples with. So for Starchart and sortie stuff, the melee rework will in fact make meleeing easy, and take less work. Which personally, I really am totally happy with. But on anything approaching 45 mins to an hour or more, the scaling is will hurt. Arbitrations, disruption farms, endless fissures... that's where this will come into play. I've included the spreadsheet. You can add to drive and download it to play with it. The orange numbers are what you can test around. (I tried to add an online-editable google sheet, but it seems like that will actually change the source file. And I haven't figured out how to make only those 4 relevant cells editable) On the other hand, all this is based on extrapolations and assumptions. DE might still change stuff around, in fact they're likely to. Hopefully, the changes will be good. Simply letting CO work on 4 procs will be a great boost. I would love that lol. BUT 5 procs makes it incredibly insane tbh. very OP xD Meaning the balancing act is pretty precarious. I can appreciate the difficulty DE has to go through during this. There's a lot that could go wrong, but there's a lot that could go right too. (Side note, one of my biggest hopes is that they will make combo counter duration infinite... or something like that. Because if we're going to be spending it on heavy attacks, it shouldn't be something that can be lost in 3 seconds.) I hope the melee rework works out overall and DE takes this in a really fun and viable way ^_^ Here's the spreadsheet: (feel free to correct me if any of my formulas and math are wrong. I picked up a lot of excel skills in the hours since the stream for this xD)https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PGNOo4k8C6FMkXVhJy6ZoIUDAT8PTHSRWc0IqC5JPhg/edit?usp=sharingEDIT: The stuff in below spoiler were fears, that turned out to be true in both, a bad way, as well as a good way because the 120% stat reveal sort of makes up for it Spoiler (MAAAAAAJOR EDIT: I did all the calcs, and the entirety of this post, thinking that they'd still apply combo counter multiplier to base damage, not ONLY heavy attacks. There is ONE line supporting this in the dev workshop, and one line AGAINST this, in the workshop. So i'm really confused. If they really do remove the effect of combo counter on normal attacks, then all this posting and math is moot. Damage output will be in hell. (I haven't edited the spreadsheet to reflect this realization, but i really hope it isn't the case) but if it was, it'd look like this: really really really hoping they don't do this. because that's hardly scaling, except for expendable heavy attacks.) Edited October 25, 2019 by DragoonStorm1 Refined excel sheet, made it editable, and better screenshot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
844448 Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Still, excellent work and dedication on that Excel 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OvisCaedo Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 (edited) While they didn't SAY so, I frankly would not be surprised if they were also planning on completely changing the mod's damage bonus to not be an exponential multiplier, either. We won't really know that until it comes out, though. i can't really be mad if they do, either, because a singular mod providing THAT massive of a damage multiplier is innately just absurd. Even by current numbers, 3 procs is a 4.1x total damage multiplier. Edited October 19, 2019 by OvisCaedo 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bibmobello Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 (edited) People think too much in this forum when the game really don't need a brain to be played. Last time i did 2 hours arbitration survival against corpus with a shaku and a good riven with CO killing everything spamming maiming strike. I did 2 hours against grinners arbitration without co and killing everything spamming maiming strike and 2 hours arbitration orokin without co and without maiming strike with mios. Following what it's written there will be no nerf at all, you will have max 3 status buff and they will increase the damage accordingly, practically it's a BUFF , not a nerf! The only nerf is for few people doing 8 hours survivals but i doubt there are a lot of them. Edited October 19, 2019 by bibmobello 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhkretor Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 40 minutes ago, bibmobello said: The only nerf is for few people doing 8 hours survivals but i doubt there are a lot of them. They don't need a weapon for that, they'll only take Saryn/Prime and be done with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bibmobello Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Just now, Uhkretor said: They don't need a weapon for that, they'll only take Saryn/Prime and be done with it. You have no idea what you are talking about... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhkretor Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Just now, bibmobello said: You have no idea what you are talking about... That's what General Discussion is for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0_The_F00l Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 DE has a bad habit of over nerfing popular things both mechanically and statistically so it becomes significantly worse and ends up at the bottom of the pile. If they limit the status to 3 and make it an additive to pressure point it will really take the reason to use CO down, a few notches, but it will need to be checked against the actual damage per status chance, if it's in the 90% range it might not be too bad overall, but if it's still at 60% it will be a very replaceable mod. Which may be good for build diversity, but will affect DPS output significantly as compared to how it is now. This is compounded by the fact that blood rush will also effectively have some changes mechanically. Whether this is a Nerf or not is something we will see after the actual stats are released. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bibmobello Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 (edited) 22 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said: DE has a bad habit of over nerfing popular things both mechanically and statistically so it becomes significantly worse and ends up at the bottom of the pile. If they limit the status to 3 and make it an additive to pressure point it will really take the reason to use CO down, a few notches, but it will need to be checked against the actual damage per status chance, if it's in the 90% range it might not be too bad overall, but if it's still at 60% it will be a very replaceable mod. Which may be good for build diversity, but will affect DPS output significantly as compared to how it is now. This is compounded by the fact that blood rush will also effectively have some changes mechanically. Whether this is a Nerf or not is something we will see after the actual stats are released. De had the bad habit to release something without thinking the consequences. Pratically every weapon without crits can be thrown in the toilet. I didn't see any reasons to nerf CO because it's useful only on very high levels but bloodrush and maiming strike are a joke and needed a BIG nerf. Edited October 19, 2019 by bibmobello 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiiat Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 (edited) regardless of the Damage we get out of it, i will only say that limiting Condition Overload to 3 Status Effects just makes it less interactive and more W+M1 style. far better off finding a Formula to use that you can let go to infinite Status Effects. because stacking more Status Effects feels a lot better to do, as you're encouraged to apply more of them. even if Condition Overload ends up as 25.0^3 instead of 1.6^n, it will still suck because it'll just be less fun to use. as you'll essentially just automatically hit the cap within a second and you didn't have to think about it for any amount of time, it was just automatic. no reason to try and mix your Equipment together, no reason to try and put in any effort. maybe that's a metaphor for Warframe overall, that things that encourage Players to put in effort and do more regularly get deleted and replaced with borderline AFKbot features. but it doesn't mean it's a scenario that i'm ever going to desire. or tl;dr - if the Formula for how the Mod calculates is the problem, why, why yet again is everything other than that being touched to solve it? i hate that the 'solutions' to problems in Warframe always seems to be "change and probably nerf everything in the game except the source of the problem". Edited October 19, 2019 by taiiat 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)jaggerwanderer Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Can't say too much right now. We need the patch to do extensive testing with actual raw data than a spreadsheet. Notable it's only in maybe two weeks. So running a few test right now for numbers before the updates hits. That way numbers can be compared to see how much of a nerf it really is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Yes-Man-Kablaam Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 nerf or not i'm not too worried it's honestly good for us if they trim the power we have a little bit. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken-Biryani Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 So, how will we deal with demolysts? 🧐 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bibmobello Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, --C--Nehra said: So, how will we deal with demolysts? 🧐 I don't know maybe using the correct build? A redeemer prime charge attack can have 3 status procs, blast,viral,radiation, or blast,gas, magnetic or blah blah and can kill a wave 30 demolist with 2 or 3 hits with zero combo counter. Edited October 19, 2019 by bibmobello 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)COA Altair Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 We don't know the full extent of changes to CO beyond being capped at 3. We don't know if it will still be exponential/1.6 to the power of N where N is the number of status procs on the target or if they are just making it like pressure point/beyond useless honestly. Demolysts still get answered just fine by magus lockdown + oberon smite, regardless of level since it scales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belanya Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Maybe you should wait a bit to get more data... Maybe you should all wait before crying for nerf all across the board... Il y a 3 heures, DragoonStorm1 a dit : But on anything approaching 45 mins to an hour or more, Endurance runs are completely irrelevant. Balance (if we can call that balance) has nothing to do with people who want to challenge themselves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorradiX Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Does calculating anything before the final changes,stats and numbers are officially out there really do anything but rile people up? Just curious.... 😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackHargreav Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Oh CO is getting nerfed? I'm completely fine with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebiko Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 So uh, why is the reworked CO (no hits, 1 status) is 5.78x instead of 1.7x? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcira Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Great another nerf that makes the game unplayable. I mean how I´m supposed to play the game with a mere 75x damage multiplier? Jokes aside they want to increase weapon base damage which isn´t considered in your calculation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragoonStorm1 Posted October 19, 2019 Author Share Posted October 19, 2019 (edited) 21 hours ago, 844448 said: Still, excellent work and dedication on that Excel D'aw thanks ❤️ 21 hours ago, OvisCaedo said: While they didn't SAY so, I frankly would not be surprised if they were also planning on completely changing the mod's damage bonus to not be an exponential multiplier, either. We won't really know that until it comes out, though. Ouch. I hadn't considered that. That would suck bigtime. 15 hours ago, MorradiX said: Does calculating anything before the final changes,stats and numbers are officially out there really do anything but rile people up? Just curious.... 😉 Well, if the community shows it cares enough about something, DE can consider our thoughts before having to hear an outrage on implementation, and keep hotfixing for weeks, and also stopping at an unsatisfactory place for years. (Prevention better than cure, and all that) The goal is just to raise concerns, and see that DE knows about it. 1 hour ago, Zebiko said: So uh, why is the reworked CO (no hits, 1 status) is 5.78x instead of 1.7x? It's calculating no hits, 1 status, and CO with the base damage buff they're going to apply. 18 minutes ago, Arcira said: Jokes aside they want to increase weapon base damage which isn´t considered in your calculation. hm the two of you ^ answered each other's questions The top left corner, 3.14x is actually the base damage boost. I've simply extrapolated it from the devstream's stats of the shown Skana (which are according to them not final, of course, but it's all I have to go on atm. It's subject to change, and you can tweak it too, personally.) Feel free to play around with the spreadsheet 🙂 and see how different amount of base damage buffs affect the whole thing. Base damage buff definitely makes a big difference in the lower-mid ranges. So melee, in arsenal, and in basic starchart to sortie, will feel incredibly buffed. It's the cap and scaling that's the issue in the end. Arbitrations, Disruptions, (and pesky Demolysts), basically any game mode that encourages time investment, will start to feel less worth the effort even in the sub-1hour runs. In theory. Edited October 19, 2019 by DragoonStorm1 typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken-Biryani Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) 19 hours ago, (XB1)COA Altair said: We don't know the full extent of changes to CO beyond being capped at 3. We don't know if it will still be exponential/1.6 to the power of N where N is the number of status procs on the target or if they are just making it like pressure point/beyond useless honestly. Demolysts still get answered just fine by magus lockdown + oberon smite, regardless of level since it scales. Care to explain. I haven't heard of that synergy. Oberon + lockdown I mean. Edited October 20, 2019 by --C--Nehra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)COA Altair Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 27 minutes ago, --C--Nehra said: Care to explain. I haven't heard of that synergy. Oberon + lockdown I mean. Lockdown to just stop the demolyst from moving, smite as an ability scales based on enemy health so you could use it on a level 9000 demolyst and it will be 35% of the max health and shields/a lot of damage. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bibmobello Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, (XB1)COA Altair said: Lockdown to just stop the demolyst from moving, smite as an ability scales based on enemy health so you could use it on a level 9000 demolyst and it will be 35% of the max health and shields/a lot of damage. i think it's better to use the augmented mods giving more damage to all mates. Edited October 20, 2019 by bibmobello Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiiat Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 51 minutes ago, --C--Nehra said: Care to explain. I haven't heard of that synergy. Oberon + lockdown I mean. as mentioned there isn't anything special to it, Smite just deals fully Scaling Damage based on Power Strength. default Strength is 6 * 0.35, and double Strength is 12 * 0.35. it works pretty effectively provided that your Projectiles have sufficient Range and Duration that they'll be able to bounce around and hit the original Enemy again. 17 minutes ago, bibmobello said: i think it's better to use the augmented mods giving more damage to all mates. Smite Infusion doesn't stop you from Casting Smite normally. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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