wf energy HAS to change

[mraz641]

spamming pizzas and having infinite energy is basicly cheating. if warframe energy is rechargable like operator energy then saryn couldn't spam that fast her abilities and power creep overall would lessen in the game.

[Raqiya]

Yes.

[Loza03]

Cross-posting from a similar thread, because it still applies:

Quote

Both the abilities and the energy system, not one or the other, are to blame. Conversely, the current system works great for more frequent, less powerful abilities. Wisp isn't exactly a mass-destruction nuker from a single button press, but she's powerful and versatile because she has lots of small options she can use quite freely. Gauss famously doesn't fit into standard roles, because his powers aren't mass-destruction, infinite survival or mapwide CC, despite him having options at damage, survival and CC. Wukong, as well, had his survivability split from one all-inclusive ability that pretty much 'solved' survival by turning off deah' into his passive and two active abilities, and he works a lot better for it.

The energy economy isn't itself the problem. It's the fact that everything from the smallest pistol, to the most niche sniper, to the Big F***ing Gun are all on functionally the same energy economy.

 

[(NSW)Sk0rp1on]

Meh. Energy pads take resources though. Strategies like this are traditional in games and I’m ok with that. It’s like bringing 1000 health potions in Diablo and spamming heal. It’s boring, but its not really hurting anyone.

[WhiteMarker]

I want OP to explain it things HAVE to change.

Could the energy system and abilities take a rework so that we some always have abilities that cost 25/50/75/100 energy? Sure thing.
But why is it a must as OP is saying? Is it hurting your fun, OP? Do you dislike people spaming abilities? Maybe I hate your way of playing. Should things change to the worse for you because I would like it?
Maybe you should explain yourself thoroughly instead of just posting a statement.

And if we were to nitpick, we don't have infinite energy. You can only have 200 pizzas of on kind with you. So there is a limit to pizzas. And after that you have to rely on Arcane Energize which is RNG to some extend, and rely on Zenurik which does NOT give you huge amounts of energy in a short amount of time

Btw. It's just hilarious to bring up Saryn in this. As if Saryn would need a lot of energy to do what she is doing XD
So in addition to a thorough explanation as to why energy HAS to change, I would like to ask, if you ever played the game before.

Edited October 25, 2019 by WhiteMarker

[ant99999]

Pizzas need to go, I agree. No, I'll say better, they shouldn't be there from the beginning. They don't bring anything that can even remotely be considered positive into the game. They convert your acumulated pile of resources that you farmed elsewhere into raw power here and now. I don't know how something like this can be suitable for a game like Warframe.

Though power creep isn't really connected with their existence. Energy system is fine apart from Pizzas and Energizing Dash. Saryn if you examine closely has no purpose in spamming her abilities. Spamming spores would only decrease dps, and spamming miasma is a worse way to spend gameplay time than using guns.

[ILOHARTA]

8 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

Pizzas need to go, I agree. No, I'll say better, they shouldn't be there from the beginning. They don't bring anything that can even remotely be considered positive into the game. They convert your acumulated pile of resources that you farmed elsewhere into raw power here and now. I don't know how something like this can be suitable for a game like Warframe.

Though power creep isn't really connected with their existence. Energy system is fine apart from Pizzas and Energizing Dash. Saryn if you examine closely has no purpose in spamming her abilities. Spamming spores would only decrease dps, and spamming miasma is a worse way to spend gameplay time than using guns.

as I said elsewhere, that's not the real problem. The problem lies in how easy is to make efficient use of that power/energy.
Practical example: let's compare Chroma with Octavia.
Chroma: press 3, you have no other worries beside being sure to keep pressing 3 every 20 or 30 seconds.
Octavia: prepare the right song, being sure to understand how each part of the Mandachord actually works. Then, during any battle, dance at the correct rhythm to keep all the buffs active. Every time you fail, you lose the specific buff you committed the error for and you are pretty much dead right after.

Now it's not hard to understand why you see Chroma everywhere and nobody uses Octavia.

Until DE fixes that, there is no way to overcome this issue.

[LascarCapable]

Removed several unconstructive posts.

[(PSN)ChaosTheNerd]

50 minutes ago, mraz641 said:

spamming pizzas and having infinite energy is basicly cheating. 

So....you're upset people are playing the game and using resources to the best they can? Really?

[Azrael_V]

No.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Azrael_V

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

Lower your own efficiency, or raise it and move on. No one cares you had a nuke in your party lol.

[ant99999]

1 час назад, ILOHARTA сказал:

as I said elsewhere, that's not the real problem. The problem lies in how easy is to make efficient use of that power/energy.
Practical example: let's compare Chroma with Octavia.
Chroma: press 3, you have no other worries beside being sure to keep pressing 3 every 20 or 30 seconds.
Octavia: prepare the right song, being sure to understand how each part of the Mandachord actually works. Then, during any battle, dance at the correct rhythm to keep all the buffs active. Every time you fail, you lose the specific buff you committed the error for and you are pretty much dead right after.

Now it's not hard to understand why you see Chroma everywhere and nobody uses Octavia.

Until DE fixes that, there is no way to overcome this issue.

That is another topic, frames complexity, not related to energy system.

Complexilty should have a reason to overcome it. The best example is Saryn. It's harder to figute out her mechanics than it is with most other frames, but in turn you get lots of self spreading damage procs and powerful aoe.

On the other hand we have frames like Mag who is not only hard to play as, but also has a narrow niche of application and in most cases easily outshined by more versatile frames like Mesa.

Octavia is more on the funny side. Her mechanics seem so complex that they frighten the players away, but in reality, they are as simple as 'make 3 circles in Mandachord, then press crouch button 3-4 times every half a minute'.

[ShortCat]

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

The energy economy isn't itself the problem. It's the fact that everything from the smallest pistol, to the most niche sniper, to the Big F***ing Gun are all on functionally the same energy economy.

I disagree with this statement. A small scale action (a handgun in your metaphor) and a tactical nuke (BFG in your metaphor) can function on the same currency, if the economy is right and expected results are taxed properly. With a total pool of 100[currency] a handgun, that spends only 1 per usage, is a cheap alternative to BFG, that needs 70. This model only works, if gain and consumption are properly regulated - a working economy.
In case of our current energy system, there is hardly a limiter on the "gain" side, thus there are no consequences for inappropriate BFG usage. If you do not have to choose when to BFG and instead use it whenever you want, BFG turns into a "handgun" while the actuall handgun becomes irrelevant.

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Both the abilities and the energy system, not one or the other, are to blame. Conversely, the current system works great for more frequent, less powerful abilities. Wisp isn't exactly a mass-destruction nuker from a single button press, but she's powerful and versatile because she has lots of small options she can use quite freely.

Not quite right. Warframes have no powerfull abilities (BFG), precisely because there are no limiters, or rather the intended limiter is not working. Wisp is actually a good example of a Frame with no BFG, but a diverse collection of medium sized firearms. So are 30 other Frames. Thus DE started to work with secondary resources (Saryn, Nidus, Baruuk, Gauss, soon Ember) to prserve the concept of relative power scaling. Even in real economy, a need for a new currency is an obvious sign of fundamental economical problems.

Broken energy economy caused current ability model with 4 mostly spammy skills, which provide rather small scale results; no real BFG or tactical nukes; heavy ability dependencies, not synergies!; as well as secondary currencies.

Edited October 25, 2019 by ShortCat

[Vyra]

2 hours ago, mraz641 said:

spamming pizzas and having infinite energy is basicly cheating. if warframe energy is rechargable like operator energy then saryn couldn't spam that fast her abilities and power creep overall would lessen in the game.

No...yes? , apparently even with fleeting expertise,streamline, energy pickups etc. i seem to have no enough energy for most  uses.
Reason? Higher level rooms of leeches and visual disturbance... the effects blind me and i can not even find the leech that hides behind a corner ( or a room under my room ) ...

Anyway, making energy rechargeable could be a good idea but only if we can increase the recharge rate that it works like energy rechargers!!!

[Loza03]

6 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

I disagree with this statement. A small scale action (a handgun in your metaphor) and a tactical nuke (BFG in your metaphor) can function on the same currency, if the economy is right and expected results are taxed properly. With a total pool of 100[currency] a handgun, that spends only 1 per usage, is a cheap alternative to BFG, that needs 70. This model only works, if gain and consumption are properly regulated - a working economy.
In case of our current energy system, there is hardly a limiter on the "gain" side, thus there are no consequences for inappropriate BFG usage. If you do not have to choose when to BFG and instead use it whenever you want, BFG turns into a "handgun" while the actuall handgun becomes irrelevant.

In theory, perhaps, but when you examine trends in games (even Warframe itself) it becomes apparent that, whilst possible, it's a lot more practical to not have them all run on the same stuff. Bearing in mind the existing DOOM analogy - there are guns that share ammo types. Shotgun ammo, plasma ammo and rifle ammo, spread over six weapons that use them (plus the Pistol and Rocket Launcher on their own economies, pistol being complete lack thereof.) Warframe itself splits ammo economies between Launchers/Snipers, Pistols, Shotguns, Heavy Weapons and Rifle ammo, each being more or less common. Hell, TF2 works on a %-based system, so practically speaking any given gun works on its own economy.

Having a dozen energy types isn't ideal, and I'm not sure what solution could be drawn aside from the existing albeit slow approach of implementing new per-frame secondary resources if they wish to have abilities like this in the game, but it's a lot 

13 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Not quite right. Warframes have no powerfull abilities (BFG), precisely because there are no limiters, or rather the intended limiter is not working. Wisp is actually a good example of a Frame with no BFG, but a diverse collection of medium sized firearms. So are 30 other Frames. Thus DE started to work with secondary resources (Saryn, Nidus, Baruuk, Gauss, soon Ember) to prserve the concept of relative power scaling. Even in real economy, a need for a new currency is an obvious sign of fundamental economical problems.

The 'no BFG' part is straight-up not true.

Discharge can, at normal levels, kill everything on a map from one press. So can Soundquake, Peacemaker among others. Invisibility effectively lets players never die because, whilst it's not invincibility, in all actual practicality, if no shots are being fired in your direction, no shots are going to land. And CC might be a whipping boy, but it didn't change. It can still turn off the whole game with very little effort. DPS nuking just cut out the fat. Just because something doesn't kill everything directly doesn't mean it's not invalidating gameplay.

These are undoubtedly on the same power level as BFG-style weapons and powers. In fact, some of them are more powerful than DOOM 2016 BFG. The BFG deals massive DoT emanating from a projectile, which explodes on contact with a surface. But it's quite possible for enemies to survive it if the player shoots a pillar so it never reaches them or just doesn't have time to dish out its full damage. And it only works directly in front of you. Volt's 4 doesn't exactly work that way - due to chaining, it can work its way around walls and it's in a 360 degree area. Soundquake doesn't care about walls at all. Mesa's is probably the closest, but even then it's not like you can mess up aiming it.

A lot of frames are managing to avoid this over time, but not all of them are just packing abilities that work well in the current system, but several frames still have BFG's from a time period where energy was a limiting factor, and haven't been touched since after it stopped being so.

[ShortCat]

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Having a dozen energy types isn't ideal, and I'm not sure what solution could be drawn aside from the existing albeit slow approach of implementing new per-frame secondary resources if they wish to have abilities like this in the game, but it's a lot 

Good question.

My solution would be a heavy regulated energy economy, so that you can can create clearly predictable controll rooms. For this it would require to:

1. Remove or rebalance most external Energy sources (random Orbs, Energyze, Zenurik, Pizzas, Rage, syndicate wepon effects and abilities).
2. Give every Frame innate Energy regen, it can vary from Frame to Frame; e.g. active casters require more resources.
3. Adjust ability costs and Energy pools; if an ability is intended to be spamed a lot make it cost 1% of base Energy pool, if it should be really powerfull make it 70%.
4. Remove efficiency; replace it with other not abuseable options to gain extra energy, kinda like https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Sharpshooter
5. If necessary use other resources to fuel skills, as some designs require this approach.

If you can predict how much energy player will get in 1 minute, you can adjust abilities to their intended skill usage or power.

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

The 'no BFG' part is straight-up not true.

Discharge can, at normal levels, kill everything on a map from one press. So can Soundquake, Peacemaker among others. Invisibility effectively lets players never die because, whilst it's not invincibility, in all actual practicality, if no shots are being fired in your direction, no shots are going to land. And CC might be a whipping boy, but it didn't change. It can still turn off the whole game with very little effort. DPS nuking just cut out the fat. Just because something doesn't kill everything directly doesn't mean it's not invalidating gameplay.

Yes, "no BFG" was bad wording on my part. I would not deepen the discussion on what is and what is not a BFG, as it is not the main topic here. What I tried to explain is, that new/reworked Frames' abilities are instantly compared to other abilities - can its CC lock down the whole map like Limbo? No, then it has trash CC. Can it outdps Saryn or Mesa? No, then its trash DD. People expect that new additions are at least as strong as already existing ones. If every CC is a BFG, non of them is; if every damage skill is a BFG, non of them is.

Edited October 25, 2019 by ShortCat
for (XB1) COA Altair

[(XBOX)COA Altair]

No, it does not.  If you nerf energize and other such things the outrage would far outweight any benefits redoing the energy system might have.  On top of that you didn't even come up with any real alternative.  

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I'd rather they just rework nuke powers out of the game from Equinox to Saryn and leave the energy alone or expand it in being able to hack consoles with the Parazon to fill up the meter using the base's own power system...

[trst]

The whole energy economy has been a mess since Trinity was a thing (which is to say since the game's release).

Before we had access to energy restores, rage/adrenaline, zenurik, or arcane energize there was trinity giving her squads infinite energy and health. She still does this but the reason she's so rarely seen now is because of the aforementioned additions (plus the ways healing has been trivialized).

If DE did want to go and fix the energy system then all these things need to go simultaneously in addition to most abilities getting readjustments or outright reworks to their values, energy sources being reevaluated or new ones added entirely, potentially enemies themselves would need adjustments, and bosses (and all other ability resistant enemies) would need changes as ability resistance would no longer be needed as much as they are now.

Really we're talking about a shift in warframe's gameplay almost as large as, if not larger than, the shift from parkour 1.0 to 2.0 was. But unlike the parkour update I doubt this change would smooth over into a positive one in the long run among players.

Edited October 25, 2019 by trst

[ShortCat]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)COA Altair said:

No, it does not.  If you nerf energize and other such things the outrage would far outweight any benefits redoing the energy system might have.

Whiny community holding the game hostage in this terrible state won't benefit us either and is a terrible counter-arguemnt. However, given DE's track record i can imagine they could make it even worse with a rework.

Edited October 25, 2019 by ShortCat

[(PSN)ChaosTheNerd]

3 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Whiny community holding the game hostage in this terrible state won't benefit us either and is a terrible counter-arguemnt. However, given DE's track record i can imagine they could make it even worse with a rework.

Removing energize and ze  dash wouldnt fix this broken game it would just extend the issues of the game and lead to MORE  whining 

[(XBOX)COA Altair]

 

5 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Whiny community holding the game hostage in this terrible state won't benefit us either and is a terrible counter-arguemnt. However, given DE's track record i can imagine they could make it even worse with a rework.

Come up with an alternative to the current system that doesn't affect DE's bottom line.  I have yet to see one posted.  All I see are people whining about too much energy without a good fix for it other then remove zenurik, energize, and pads.  That doesn't fix the problem by the way, as people then resort to harrow, trinity, etc. etc. for their energy needs.  I'm in the camp of don't nerf trinity for the 20th time since she is the frame that has received the most nerfs by far if you look at all the changes DE has made to her over the years.  

I'm not the one whining.  I'd likely roll with any system DE put out unless it was truly horrible.  Not everyone feels the same as I do however.  

[(PSN)thegarada]

I do not get this. Even the most spammable skills pale in comparison to weapons damage. Is spanking level 30 content is the benchmark for balance now? This will significantly hurt frames that relay on skills and energy for survivability without adding anything to the game. It most definitely will have no impact on frames power in sortie level 3 content and beyond, unless you need energy to survive and cannot use hunter adrenaline.

 

[ShortCat]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)COA Altair said:

Come up with an alternative to the current system that doesn't affect DE's bottom line.  I have yet to see one posted.

Scroll above and you will see one. Come on, at least read what people posted in a thread.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

I would love

for warframes to have rechargeable energy like operators

And replace energy regeneration abilites with energy recharge speed and recharge delay speed 

That way players can still have self sustainability in their kit 

For someone like gauss that spams his abilities all the time having a rechargeable energy can be a dream 

 

I hate energy pizzas and i hate zenurik...not having to use both is a gift