The Ember rework was a failure

[Tsardova]

Wait what?

 

145%  power strength here and with 2 active, her 3 melts sortie level stuff...

Heck, now her 3 and 4 combo may feel spammy, but it sure as heck ain't brain dead and is actually fun to use.

[Djego27]

It is rediculous spammy, and this is comming from somebody that did love the old "bugged" toxic transfer saryn where your 1 litterally was clicked more often then your left mouse button on a weapon based damage frame.

Futuremore your 3 is AOE and your 4 basically hits everything you look at(with some random LOS kind of bugs to it, missing stuff that is barely behind a corner where other times going stright through walls). That is not really what I would call interesting gameplay, at least compared to a frame that used to reqire a lot of thought when it comes to builds and good utilization of the weapons you bring with you to do high damage.

Ember did melt sortis quicker and more effective solo before the changes:

This is a extra armor sorti survial on the Kuva Fortress what does not even affect Ember, given if you figgured out that putting fire and corrosive damage on your status weapon and utilizing a the strongest status weapon buff in the game armor scaling is more or less irrelevant for you as a damage dealer. This also worked with radiation and viral vs infested, where Ember actually was in a much better position to do damage at L150+ then most damage frames in the game, because a weapon set up to negate aura protection was very effective on your frame, not so much on other damage frames, because that radiation and viral damage is heavly resisted by the faction.

Future more there is something buggy with the passive, given that I am 100% certain that I did not stand in 21 units on fire while activating fireball frenzy:

 

[CephalonSolo]

2 hours ago, Djego27 said:

Ember could easily solo sortis before, it was just quicker and more efficent with accelerant and weapons.

If you believe never useing guns and being good at positioning by looking in the general direction of enemy units makes a great FPS, then your are litterally in the same "think different" camp as a developer that instead of fixing enemy damage scaling and high level mechanics believes that the correct approach is to just gives everybody god mode and buffs weapons multiple times above reasonable levels, making litterally all her content in her game a effortless boring grindfest that not even gives real motivations to get all the different weapons, frames and gear, given that it is today mostly just more of the same boring stuff.

Nope I think not using weapon to kill and going solo Warframe is a good thing when doing right , saryn complete sh*t u make your spore pop and go hiding till all die (that's solo Eso after 9 wave for me) , volt equinox the same , u kill so many people and u don't feel u achieve that , just a chore (uff I need to farm Eso lv 8, let me click 4 till that point ) whyle with ember every kill have a price , u can nuke all the map yes  but if u do it wrong u will find yourself dead with no energy , ember rework is what nukers in this game should be , btw her first (charging) ability is pointless use it normal .

[(PSN)AlucardUndying]

I do not like the new Ember at all. 

I wish I had known that Ember would change this drastically as I would not have wasted my time, credits, endo and potatoes building something that I just want to put in the trash now. 

An offer for a refund from DE would have at least been a nice gesture for enyone who doesn't like it. 

Imagine all the players that spent plat to buy Ember Prime and now has to play with this weak smolder. Rip Ember dps. 

Why doesn't DE just give us a new frame that does these things and just leave Ember alone? The only skill that's similar is 1 and they could have just renamed it something else? 

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

Her rework has made her 10x better just no longer has the fire and forget any more.  she still melts pretty much anything I need her too.  she is alot more tanky now and less glass cannon.  with simply a little time management and situational awareness she is a power house

[EdinaMonsoon]

ember is fantastic now

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, (PS4)AlucardUndying said:

I do not like the new Ember at all. 

I wish I had known that Ember would change this drastically as I would not have wasted my time, credits, endo and potatoes building something that I just want to put in the trash now. 

An offer for a refund from DE would have at least been a nice gesture for enyone who doesn't like it. 

Imagine all the players that spent plat to buy Ember Prime and now has to play with this weak smolder. Rip Ember dps. 

Why doesn't DE just give us a new frame that does these things and just leave Ember alone? The only skill that's similar is 1 and they could have just renamed it something else? 

I dont think you actually know what the acronym dps means if you think Ember's dps took a drop with the rework. Everything in her kit has improved her DPS massively. Her old skills did a fraction of the dps she does now, too a limited amount of targets over a silly short range in most cases.

She was a low level mission hero and even there she wasnt even very good compared to several other frames. Now she is a top tier damage frame, with great survivability, debuffs and cc aswell

[CTanGod]

15 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I dont think you actually know what the acronym dps means if you think Ember's dps took a drop with the rework. Everything in her kit has improved her DPS massively. Her old skills did a fraction of the dps she does now, too a limited amount of targets over a silly short range in most cases.

She was a low level mission hero and even there she wasnt even very good compared to several other frames. Now she is a top tier damage frame, with great survivability, debuffs and cc aswell

Let me do the math on old Ember:

Base values: 400/150 fireball, 300 Fire Blast, 800 WoF multiply all these by the 2.5 multiplier of Accelerant and you get 1000/375 Fireball, 750 Fire Blast and 2000 WoF, 35% proc chance. Only WoF had lower damage than Inferno. However all of these change drastically when you use Power Strength.

At 200% power Strength: Accelerant would have a 5x multiplier so that would be: 2000/ 750 Fireball, 1500 Fire Blast, 8000 WoF. 70% proc chance. Now keep in mind that heat procs would double dip, they would be larger first because of the damage that procs them and and secondly because they would be amplified by Accelerant. Ember only lacked damage vs Armor because Heat procs didn't work like they currently do but even back then I could legit quickly kill lvl 50-60 grineer anyway. Anyone who says old Ember had low damage is just plain wrong. To put it into perspective, WoF and Inferno basically would have had the same cost (Because Accelerant + WoF, which would hit all enemies in range upon cast) but WoF would have hit everyone in range instead of needing 2 casts to cover all angles.

What held Ember back was the garbage passive, split damage and static aoe fireball and absolutely garbage WoF changes (yes DE, murdering my already small AOE on WoF for double damage was a good idea /s, also making it a toggle, absolutely brilliant move, who needs energy anyway?).

If DE had given Ember her current passive, reverted WoF to its 2013 status, made Fireball do full damage in the aoe and had it scale with range, and reworked heat procs like they are now, Ember would be the perfect dps frame, she would do good instant damage but also increase in damage as time flows while also having decent CC to survive and help in a group.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

2013 WoF? I had some PTSD spam casting that ability with its low duration and not being a toggle ability @CTanGod

[SneakyErvin]

9 minutes ago, CTanGod said:

Let me do the math on old Ember:

Base values: 400/150 fireball, 300 Fire Blast, 800 WoF multiply all these by the 2.5 multiplier of Accelerant and you get 1000/375 Fireball, 750 Fire Blast and 2000 WoF, 35% proc chance. Only WoF had lower damage than Inferno. However all of these change drastically when you use Power Strength.

At 200% power Strength: Accelerant would have a 5x multiplier so that would be: 2000/ 750 Fireball, 1500 Fire Blast, 8000 WoF. 70% proc chance. Now keep in mind that heat procs would double dip, they would be larger first because of the damage that procs them and and secondly because they would be amplified by Accelerant. Ember only lacked damage vs Armor because Heat procs didn't work like they currently do but even back then I could legit quickly kill lvl 50-60 grineer anyway. Anyone who says old Ember had low damage is just plain wrong. To put it into perspective, WoF and Inferno basically would have had the same cost (Because Accelerant + WoF, which would hit all enemies in range upon cast) but WoF would have hit everyone in range instead of needing 2 casts to cover all angles.

What held Ember back was the garbage passive, split damage and static aoe fireball and absolutely garbage WoF changes (yes DE, murdering my already small AOE on WoF for double damage was a good idea /s, also making it a toggle, absolutely brilliant move, who needs energy anyway?).

If DE had given Ember her current passive, reverted WoF to its 2013 status, made Fireball do full damage in the aoe and had it scale with range, and reworked heat procs like they are now, Ember would be the perfect dps frame, she would do good instant damage but also increase in damage as time flows while also having decent CC to survive and help in a group.

Level 50-60 isnt a good benchmark though. It is beyond that where she shines now, something she didnt do previously because of both low damage and horrible survivability. You are also neglecting how much easier range is for her now.

[CTanGod]

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

Level 50-60 isnt a good benchmark though. It is beyond that where she shines now, something she didnt do previously because of both low damage and horrible survivability. You are also neglecting how much easier range is for her now.

I should have mentioned that the lvl 50-60 benchmark was for Grineer since Alloy armor is a $&*^. When you say she is good for high level you have to factor in her mechanics and values: right now Fireball is useless, it still has the split damage problem and now has even worse range (but hey it scales with range mods, only 250% range and you have the old base range back!), Immolation is punishing to use if you plan to cast abilities all day, Fire Blast has LoS of the lowest caliber and takes way defensive ability while also costing a S#&$ ton, Inferno only targets enemies in front of you so long as they aren't off screen, in a different room/behind a door. I absolutely do not understand where people are coming from when they say she is amazing, her damage is nothing special, her abilities are either bad or frustrating and all she has that is somewhat reliable and consistent is damage reduction. Does everyone just run her as a tank or something?

1 minute ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

2013 WoF? I had some PTSD spam casting that ability with its low duration and not being a toggle ability @CTanGod

If I remember correctly it used to have a 15s duration which scaled with mods. Considering that back then we only had continuity, constitution and narrow minded for duration mods, yes it was low, but keep in mind it didn't drain energy after an initial cost and still was a passive damage aura. If toggle abilities are so good, why do all good damage reduction abilities rely on a duration? I mean, casting the ability once every 15 seconds is much better than constantly losing energy for 15 seconds, regardless if it does something or not.

[SneakyErvin]

31 minutes ago, CTanGod said:

I should have mentioned that the lvl 50-60 benchmark was for Grineer since Alloy armor is a $&*^. When you say she is good for high level you have to factor in her mechanics and values: right now Fireball is useless, it still has the split damage problem and now has even worse range (but hey it scales with range mods, only 250% range and you have the old base range back!), Immolation is punishing to use if you plan to cast abilities all day, Fire Blast has LoS of the lowest caliber and takes way defensive ability while also costing a S#&$ ton, Inferno only targets enemies in front of you so long as they aren't off screen, in a different room/behind a door. I absolutely do not understand where people are coming from when they say she is amazing, her damage is nothing special, her abilities are either bad or frustrating and all she has that is somewhat reliable and consistent is damage reduction. Does everyone just run her as a tank or something?

If I remember correctly it used to have a 15s duration which scaled with mods. Considering that back then we only had continuity, constitution and narrow minded for duration mods, yes it was low, but keep in mind it didn't drain energy after an initial cost and still was a passive damage aura. If toggle abilities are so good, why do all good damage reduction abilities rely on a duration? I mean, casting the ability once every 15 seconds is much better than constantly losing energy for 15 seconds, regardless if it does something or not.

Even versus grineer at level 50-60 should not be a benchmark. And I do factor in her mechanics and values, I also dont really consider #1 skills on many frames since they are generally bad. You tend to transition out of #1 skills very early, for Ember there is no use to ever hit her 1 after you get her 4. So worrying about the stats of the #1 is pointless, since you will never ever build to make it better and if it does get better while building for the rest you will never use it anyways.

There is nothing wrong with having LoS requirements on skills when they hit hard aswell as have other uses aside from pure damage. I also dont really see the costs as a problem, I run a 175% efficiency build with basic energy pool and never run out while spamming away with her 4 and reducing heat with her 3 as needed while having 2 toggled on. I guess the LoS requirements just dont bother me since I moved away from the no-LoS AoE frames a long while back. They still see use at times when needing a sortie defense cleared as fast a possible or when I need a kill X enemies with Y element nightwave task that fits them. When I actually wanna play the content I prefer an interactive frame, which Ember fits perfectly now aswell as being a high damage dealer.

Regarding the need to have targets infront of you for Inferno, yeah, but there is this thing called positioning, which is easy to do on defensive maps. She kinda follows the same rules as Mesa and last I checked Mesa wasnt considered a bad frame due to having LoS and angle rules to abide to.

Edited November 24, 2019 by SneakyErvin

[CTanGod]

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Even versus grineer at level 50-60 should not be a benchmark. And I do factor in her mechanics and values, I also dont really consider #1 skills on many frames since they are generally bad. You tend to transition out of #1 skills very early, for Ember there is no use to ever hit her 1 after you get her 4. So worrying about the stats of the #1 is pointless, since you will never ever build to make it better and if it does get better while building for the rest you will never use it anyways.

There is nothing wrong with having LoS requirements on skills when they hit hard aswell as have other uses aside from pure damage. I also dont really see the costs as a problem, I run a 175% efficiency build with basic energy pool and never run out while spamming away with her 4 and reducing heat with her 3 as needed while having 2 toggled on. I guess the LoS requirements just dont bother me since I moved away from the no-LoS AoE frames a long while back. They still see use at times when needing a sortie defense cleared as fast a possible or when I need a kill X enemies with Y element nightwave task that fits them. When I actually wanna play the content I prefer an interactive frame, which Ember fits perfectly now aswell as being a high damage dealer.

Regarding the need to have targets infront of you for Inferno, yeah, but there is this thing called positioning, which is easy to do on defensive maps. She kinda follows the same rules as Mesa and last I checked Mesa wasnt considered a bad frame due to having LoS and angle rules to abide to.

Level 50-60 grineer is a valid benchmark when the frame and damage type have no way to deal with armor, alloy armor has resistances to almost all elements, heavy units gain huge armor values and then you add it other special units with absurd armor values. I did use Ember even for lvl 100+ corpus/infested and her damage values were up to snuff there, just not against armor.

The thing about 1st abilities is that we should start considering them as an important part of the frame, Fireball can easily be good if DE were to made the changes I suggested since the combo mechanic + heat procs makes it do tremendous damage. You said you like interactive frames (as I do), so why not make Fireball good? it would make Ember more interactive, you would have more options to work with. Why not make all 1st abilities good? Good 1st abilities can only add to a frame, not detract.

I hate LoS abilities because they tend to be inconsistent, the amount of times I have seen Fire Blast not affect enemies I can see on my screen is too large to even mention. As for Inferno, I don't hate the targeting, it's ok, I hate the fact that the ability isn't stronger for it however but that can easily be fixed by giving the Rings a proc chance, that way they can keep the initial heat proc from Inferno going and can make the ability a good CC move as well.

The reason people don't complain about Mesa's Peacemakers is the fact that once you cast it you can just rapidly spin the camera around and hit enemies everywhere before the targeting AOE gets too small, with Inferno you press it in a direction and hope for the best, positioning does very little here as you have no way to know if the enemy is in a different room or behind some object/environmental detail that counts as being in a different room or some other spaghetti code logic. Also, Peacemaker isn't advertised as striking everything in front of you, it just says shoots all enemies in sight.

Personally I find Ember way less interactive, I don't have to make sure enemies have Accelerant on them, I don't have to make sure I time my WoF right, I don't have the to think about using Fireball (since it's garbage), I don't have to consider using Fire Blast's ring as some source of damage or just eye candy. All I do is press 3 and 4, hoping they work correctly, I feel I do less for my team, I feel I have fewer options.

The worst part is, all of these issues can be fixed with quick and easy changes but for some reason people don't see these issues, all they see is this amazing rework. Maybe comparing it to the previous version, yeah, I guess it is an improvement (although anything is an improvement over the last version of WoF...).

*sigh* I'm just so tired of all this, I want Ember to be good, but I don't see it here, all I see here is a failed damage/tank hybrid.

[BornWithTeeth]

43 minutes ago, CTanGod said:

Level 50-60 grineer is a valid benchmark when the frame and damage type have no way to deal with armor, alloy armor has resistances to almost all elements, heavy units gain huge armor values and then you add it other special units with absurd armor values. I did use Ember even for lvl 100+ corpus/infested and her damage values were up to snuff there, just not against armor.

I have some very good news for you about Ember’s new kit and the changes to Heat damage.

[CTanGod]

24 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

I have some very good news for you about Ember’s new kit and the changes to Heat damage.

For God's sake I am aware of the changes. If anything they are the sole reason Ember can even consider herself a damage frame when it comes to armor (Fire Blast is too unreliable to strip armor). I was talking about old Ember, before the heat proc changes. Do you people even have reading comprehension? No offence, but so many people keep giving me answers that make me think they don't understand what I say.

[DatDarkOne]

13 minutes ago, CTanGod said:

For God's sake I am aware of the changes.

Then maybe you should have added to your sentence "before rework" and no misunderstandings would happen.  😛

edit: yes I did go back and read your statements twice before I made my comment.  My reading comprehension is way above average just in case it comes up.  

Edited November 24, 2019 by DatDarkOne

[GPrime96]

6 hours ago, (PS4)AlucardUndying said:

Imagine all the players that spent plat to buy Ember Prime and now has to play with this weak smolder. Rip Ember dps. 

Why doesn't DE just give us a new frame that does these things and just leave Ember alone? 

^^ Current Ember for sure.

[CTanGod]

45 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Then maybe you should have added to your sentence "before rework" and no misunderstandings would happen.  😛

edit: yes I did go back and read your statements twice before I made my comment.  My reading comprehension is way above average just in case it comes up.  

Well I did say Old Ember and even made references to old abilities but whatever.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

On a personal level, I feel that if you’re running Exothermic there’s really no reason to build for duration if you’re running Ember with 190% Efficiency/40% Duration. If you’re going for that build, Energy Conversion is the better option since no matter what you mod for Immolation will still be capped at 2.5 energy/sec.

Exothermic, Energy Conversion, Arcane Energize, and Ember’s new passive synergizes pretty well for stacking Power Strength and keeping her 90% DR consistent, especially if you’re getting good Heat and armor strip procs with Fire Blast.

I’m enjoying her new kit, but I can see how people dislike the changes. Maybe more work can be done to improve her kit, but I feel (again, on a personal level) that she’s going in the right direction.

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, CTanGod said:

Level 50-60 grineer is a valid benchmark when the frame and damage type have no way to deal with armor, alloy armor has resistances to almost all elements, heavy units gain huge armor values and then you add it other special units with absurd armor values. I did use Ember even for lvl 100+ corpus/infested and her damage values were up to snuff there, just not against armor.

The thing about 1st abilities is that we should start considering them as an important part of the frame, Fireball can easily be good if DE were to made the changes I suggested since the combo mechanic + heat procs makes it do tremendous damage. You said you like interactive frames (as I do), so why not make Fireball good? it would make Ember more interactive, you would have more options to work with. Why not make all 1st abilities good? Good 1st abilities can only add to a frame, not detract.

I hate LoS abilities because they tend to be inconsistent, the amount of times I have seen Fire Blast not affect enemies I can see on my screen is too large to even mention. As for Inferno, I don't hate the targeting, it's ok, I hate the fact that the ability isn't stronger for it however but that can easily be fixed by giving the Rings a proc chance, that way they can keep the initial heat proc from Inferno going and can make the ability a good CC move as well.

The reason people don't complain about Mesa's Peacemakers is the fact that once you cast it you can just rapidly spin the camera around and hit enemies everywhere before the targeting AOE gets too small, with Inferno you press it in a direction and hope for the best, positioning does very little here as you have no way to know if the enemy is in a different room or behind some object/environmental detail that counts as being in a different room or some other spaghetti code logic. Also, Peacemaker isn't advertised as striking everything in front of you, it just says shoots all enemies in sight.

Personally I find Ember way less interactive, I don't have to make sure enemies have Accelerant on them, I don't have to make sure I time my WoF right, I don't have the to think about using Fireball (since it's garbage), I don't have to consider using Fire Blast's ring as some source of damage or just eye candy. All I do is press 3 and 4, hoping they work correctly, I feel I do less for my team, I feel I have fewer options.

The worst part is, all of these issues can be fixed with quick and easy changes but for some reason people don't see these issues, all they see is this amazing rework. Maybe comparing it to the previous version, yeah, I guess it is an improvement (although anything is an improvement over the last version of WoF...).

*sigh* I'm just so tired of all this, I want Ember to be good, but I don't see it here, all I see here is a failed damage/tank hybrid.

Prior to the rework it might have been a valid benchmark to indicate what she could do. It isnt a benchmark anymore, for at the point where old Ember did well, the new Ember is far beyond that. You can say that old Ember killed 50-60 Grineers as fast as new Ember, but that is no indication of where new Ember is at. She is decimating well into the high levels and is also able to survive well in those high levels. New Ember simply doesnt care if it is armor or not well above 100, she just poops on them no matter what.

We should start considering them when they actually become good, we should not use them as examples when the old one was as bad as the new one.

I've never had issues with LoS, never felt any inconsistancy whatsoever, no matter the frame. And inferno not being stronger compared to what? The skill deals pretty impressive damage and leaves a nice damaging DoT behind aswell.

Mesa's skill is still a LoS skill and it can also be annoying when you actually have a specific target you wanna kill, yet it shoots at something else first or spreads out the damage among the targets. Ember has a 1-click skill that hits everything equally within sight. It is more of a 1-click upfront large damage instance vs toggle and sweep with several smaller spread damage instances. Now sure, if Mesa has a single target she will wreck it far faster than anyone else could since everything will hit that single target.

I guess that is a matter of taste, it still doesnt change that Ember does far more damage now and can actually burst pretty well. WoF was just a very bad skill with a cap on enemies she would hit and so on. Just a Fire Blast was really just a good buffer to shoot through, it didnt do much in the initial cast.

Personally I dont see a need for many changes. She deals great damage, has good debuffs, a great survival skill and good options for energy management. I dont think there is much hybrid to her, she is a damage frame with a survival skill that lets you build her as more of a tank. Although playing safer and focusing on damage is probably the best solution.

[Zerathos_Dagon]

Overall, in a very general and technical sense, I have to disagree. At least this iteration is somewhat better than her previous one, making it technically an improvement in my view. At least this rework brought her some survivability and some scaling. This causes this version to at least be somewhat playable in the current gamestate, whereas her previous self could barely survive at all - or even deal above average damage.

However, I too share your disappointment with her current kit. While I don't agree with some points in your post (like disliking that her ult is targeted in front of her, but hey, that's your opinion), I too have my own gripes with her kit:
 * Her Fireball ability is still too boring and sub-par. Why use it when you can just spam 4?
 * Her Immolation drains too much time and frame energy to be any fun or interactive. Hell, it also deducts a lot from its usefulness.
 * Her Fire Blast and Inferno are just way too simple, in that you can just spam them everywhere while turning your brain off. The visuals are pretty, but using them feels boring AF.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

On 2019-11-01 at 2:49 PM, lmpossibIe said:

No I've run ESO a lot it hits well over 10 targets. Also no where does it mention "up to a cap" anywhere.

The cap is related to the enemy cost. Ember 4 can hit an unlimited number of enemies in view, but it only costs energy up to ten enemies hit

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

Personally i like her change

So ehh.

[Aldain]

I don't get it.

How can giving her damage resistance, changing the status of heat to melt armor, giving even MORE armor shred on her 3, massive AoE potential with her 4 since the fire spreads (again melting armor), have made her worse than when she was a frame who's only good uses were afking in low level missions and giving out fire buffs with her 1 augment (usually to buff radiation damage)?

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2019-11-01 at 12:36 PM, lmpossibIe said:

I'm not saying the idea of her new kit is bad. I'm saying the way they implemented it is. The amount of limitations on her is crippling to other frames that can do the same job she does but better. The way she works now is she feels like a slightly more damage variant than nezha. She doesn't feel anything like ember anymore aside from settings things on fire. Which he does to anyways. The amount of limits put on her abilities like energy cost, amount of units that she can hit, how big her AOE is and even the amount of damage potential she has is putting her at the bottom of the barrel in terms of damage, and outside of augments and her maxed out heat bar 3 she has no utility. The fact that she has no team support outside of augments to me is terrible imo unless she literally does so much damage that she can ignore that like saryn. But even excal and mesa have team support.

I have to disagree with you here.

Originally testing her new kit on level 130 heavies, I noticed just how quickly she can dispatch them with her 2 maxed followed by her 3 + melee. Since she melts armor now, her overall damage has skyrocketed. They also made her augment mods sync very well and begs for her to dive into the middle of the crowd and go hard. Add to that her ability to take shots and she is now my favorite frame again. 

Lastly, and this is probably just me, I like how I now have to manage her energy a bit and really hope this is DE's way of testing frame limitations. Saryn and Mesa should be in this category as well.