Suggestion to encourage players to fight their lich when they don't have their requiem mods.

[QuinnCarter]

I posted this suggestion in the main feedback thread for Old Blood, but I thought I would post it here to see your guys' opinions.

 

5 minutes ago, QuinnCarter said:

Dying to Kuva lichs for failing the requiem mod combination feels overly discouraging and really unnecessary. It would be fine if the failure just resulted in the lich leaving, and it would feel less discouraging to try and get rid of a lich during a mission where you are just trying to get murmurs.

That said, there's no incentive to try fighting the lich if you're not trying to kill/convert it. My suggestion is that anytime you chase off a lich in their controlled sector, they wont tax you when you complete that certain mission.

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by QuinnCarter

[GruntBlender]

Well, I don't care about dying or the tax, but I don't want the lich to level up, especially if it means they'll one-shot me. So even for the 10 murmurs we get from our liches, it's not worth it until we know at least one of the mods required.

[Test-995]

If they want us to kill liches they should just remove every one of punishment for killing, we won't lose his anger, he won't rank up, we won't die, remove thrall convert ability.

Now suddenly all of people won't kill liches are just troll and nothing else.

 

[Leyvonne]

Easiest solution; lich only spawns when playing solo. I mean they are supposed to be our personal enemy, but now they making other players the enemy because of the "I want everyone to play MY way" attitude.

[Jiminez_Burial]

44 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

he won't rank up

If they do this then they need to provide us with another means to rank the Lich.  If they remove my ability to have lvl 100+ missions be the normal missions I'm playing then I'm calling the Lich system a write-off.

[Kainosh]

5 hours ago, Leyvonne said:

Easiest solution

Pfff....Observe:   

  If you let Lich recover its health after knocking it down....it despawns and you get Murmurs. 

 

You dont want to try and level it up? Dont use Parazon and let it retreat.  They recover pretty fast, so it wont hinder other players.

Also, i already suggested "Lich cooperation".   Like...They just spawn together and its 4 vs 4 (if entire team got Liches).  You get murmurs for "trying" someone's lich. And if you Discover someone's requiem, you get extra Murmurs.  Jolly cooperation.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Kainosh
Link

[Leyvonne]

38 minutes ago, Kainosh said:

Pfff....Observe:   

  If you let Lich recover its health after knocking it down....it despawns and you get Murmurs. 

 

You dont want to try and level it up? Dont use Parazon and let it retreat.  They recover pretty fast, so it wont hinder other players.

 

Also, i already suggested "Lich cooperation".   Like...They just spawn together and its 4 vs 4 (if entire team got Liches).  You get murmurs for "trying" someone's lich. And if you Discover someone's requiem, you get extra Murmurs.  Jolly cooperation.

Lich giving murmurs was supposed to be a solution to people not engaing their lich and that didn't help. Why? There is no way to make someone play someone else's way in public game and that is the core issue when it comes to dealing with liches. And that brings us back to lich only spawing when solo being the easiest solution.

[Test-995]

2 hours ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

If they do this then they need to provide us with another means to rank the Lich.  If they remove my ability to have lvl 100+ missions be the normal missions I'm playing then I'm calling the Lich system a write-off.

Of course, because otherwise whole rank system would be pointless.

[BloodKitten]

if a lich spawn, the player cannot extract, might be strongarming at this point, but its the most effective method, lich is already an optional part after some updates, if you really dont want to fight it, then dont do lich controlled missions.

[Kainosh]

3 hours ago, Leyvonne said:

Lich giving murmurs was supposed to be a solution to people not engaing their lich and that didn't help.

Do you even read?   

 Lich spawns > You damage it > Lich gets "downed" > You dont use parazon and wait > Lich gets up and DESPAWNS, allowing for other liches to spawn.

 

That was my answer.   Link is a reference to another thread for curious ones.   

[Leyvonne]

4 hours ago, Kainosh said:

Do you even read?   

 Lich spawns > You damage it > Lich gets "downed" > You dont use parazon and wait > Lich gets up and DESPAWNS, allowing for other liches to spawn.

 

That was my answer.   Link is a reference to another thread for curious ones.   

Yes, I actually did read. Your idea only works if the player is willing to engage their lich and many refuse to do so even after DE changed it so that lich gives murmurs. I don't see how your idea would make anyone interested in engaing their lich when adding an extra reward didn't. Unless we are talking about accidentally damaging a lich and it then despawning.. but that would open a new can of worms where people get upset about their lich despawning because they damaged it by accident.

I actually want a solution that is fair to both lich hunters and lich avoiders.. a solution that doesn't force either side to change the way they play.

 

[Kainosh]

19 minutes ago, Leyvonne said:

Unless we are talking about accidentally damaging a lich and it then despawning

1) You can't "accidentally damage" a Lich for entire Health bar.   That kind of sht can be only done on purpose.

2) After getting downed, Lich stays in "finishable" state for long enough....so its really hard to "troll despawn" someone's Lich.  DE can also add a different Lich marker so that its even harder to miss.

3) Any player can damage Lich and down it. So even if "hunted" player refuses to get rid of his Lich, you can drive it away on your own and get another Lich to spawn.

 

Coz solo is not a solution in coop game. There are people who play with friends. Locking content in solo mode will hurt em much more than any trolling possibility. 

[Leyvonne]

16 minutes ago, Kainosh said:

1) You can't "accidentally damage" a Lich for entire Health bar.   That kind of sht can be only done on purpose.

2) After getting downed, Lich stays in "finishable" state for long enough....so its really hard to "troll despawn" someone's Lich.  DE can also add a different Lich marker so that its even harder to miss.

3) Any player can damage Lich and down it. So even if "hunted" player refuses to get rid of his Lich, you can drive it away on your own and get another Lich to spawn.

 

Coz solo is not a solution in coop game. There are people who play with friends. Locking content in solo mode will hurt em much more than any trolling possibility. 

Oh I see, when you said 

6 hours ago, Kainosh said:

Lich spawns > You damage it > Lich gets "downed" > You dont use parazon and wait > Lich gets up and DESPAWNS, allowing for other liches to spawn.

I was just waking up so my brain squished that into "you damage it and it despwns", my bad on that one 😄 So yeah, now that I'm properly awake I think your idea could work as long as the downed state is indeed long enough to prevent situations where someone wants to fight their lich, but someone else gets there first.

[MirageKnight]

How about getting rid of the whole stupid and arbitrary "press x to die and level up your enemy" mechanic? Seriously, that would be great encouragement.

The LIch has been battered to the point where its on its damn knees. You jab it - but it turns out you have the wrong secret code. Then it goes "LOL - wrong code, I win" and proceeds to one hit kill you and buggers off in triumph. Because the game says so.

Tell me again how this is reasonable or fair to the player?

The Lich nemesis should be defeated by "normal" means, but require the Parazon with the right phrase sequence to either kill it for its weapon or convert to an ally.

Conversely, attempting a jab with the Parazon without the right mod sequence should never result in the player getting killed, nor should it level up the Lich. Instead, have the Lich nemesis initiate an emergency teleport escape to fight another day but you get a better clue as to how to beat it the next time it shows its ugly mug. Following up on that, the Lich should only be able to level up if it actually defeats you (and perhaps other players) in a fight. We rank up gear as we defeat enemies do we not? The Lich nemesis should therefore operate by the same rules we do if we want the system to be fair.

 

Edit: I know I've said all this before elsewhere, but it bears repeating.

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by MirageKnight

[Tsukinoki]

17 hours ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

If they do this then they need to provide us with another means to rank the Lich.  If they remove my ability to have lvl 100+ missions be the normal missions I'm playing then I'm calling the Lich system a write-off.

There is another way to level up a lich:
If you clear all nodes under its influence it levels up and takes over another planet.
You can actually test this right now...just avoid trying your lich if it spawns and watch it level up when you finish all nodes it controls.

Can easily happen by accident if it takes over a small planet like Phobos and never shows up as you clear the 4 nodes it took over.

3 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

How about getting rid of the whole stupid and arbitrary "press x to die and level up your enemy" mechanic? Seriously, that would be great encouragement.

I fully agree here.
I'm trying to level the new weapons and it shows up and I'm faced with "Time to lose 10% affinity for zero positives unless you know 2 requiems and manage to somehow get lucky!"

3 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Conversely, attempting a jab with the Parazon without the right mod sequence should never result in the player getting killed, nor should it level up the Lich. Instead, have the Lich nemesis initiate an emergency teleport escape to fight another day but you get a better clue as to how to beat it the next time it shows its ugly mug. Following up on that, the Lich should only be able to level up if it actually defeats you (and perhaps other players) in a fight. We rank up gear as we defeat enemies do we not? The Lich nemesis should therefore operate by the same rules we do if we want the system to be fair.

That would actually fit into the trigger for the lich just leaving the mission: A tenno going into bleedout.
If a tenno enters bleedout while a lich is in the mission have the lich play a victory transmission, level up, and leave.

It would feel better to know "Oh worst case if I have the magic combination wrong?  It leaves." instead of "You lose 10% affinity with no way to avoid it and have to sit there for up to 20 seconds while the game refuses to show you the revive button!"

[Aldain]

3 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

How about getting rid of the whole stupid and arbitrary "press x to die and level up your enemy" mechanic? Seriously, that would be great encouragement.

The LIch has been battered to the point where its on its damn knees. You jab it - but it turns out you have the wrong secret code. Then it goes "LOL - wrong code, I win" and proceeds to one hit kill you and buggers off in triumph. Because the game says so.

Tell me again how this is reasonable or fair to the player?

The Lich nemesis should be defeated by "normal" means, but require the Parazon with the right phrase sequence to either kill it for its weapon or convert to an ally.

Conversely, attempting a jab with the Parazon without the right mod sequence should never result in the player getting killed, nor should it level up the Lich. Instead, have the Lich nemesis initiate an emergency teleport escape to fight another day but you get a better clue as to how to beat it the next time it shows its ugly mug. Following up on that, the Lich should only be able to level up if it actually defeats you (and perhaps other players) in a fight. We rank up gear as we defeat enemies do we not? The Lich nemesis should therefore operate by the same rules we do if we want the system to be fair.

Been saying this for the past week or so, every time I do it gets ignored or deflected with "It's just a revive bruh".

But I'll keep saying it and cheering when somebody else does, because THIS is the number 1 reason why nobody wants to dispel their Lich.

Game design should never use "Win to lose and lose to win" logic like this, plus on top of that, what good is an immortal nemesis you only truly injure/kill once?

[Miyabi-sama]

Being the Jackie Chan means you first have to be punched in ya face to start kickin'.

... i thought everyone wanted to be like Jackie Chan.

[QuinnCarter]

2 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Being the Jackie Chan means you first have to be punched in ya face to start kickin'.

... i thought everyone wanted to be like Jackie Chan.

No, we want to be Bruce Lee.

[Miyabi-sama]

1 минуту назад, QuinnCarter сказал:

No, we want to be Bruce Lee.

Uh... you wanna die?

But that's what Liches are made for! You gloriously kick ass and then suddenly die.

Steve is a miracle worker truly. Knows exactly what players want.

[QuinnCarter]

1 minute ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Uh... you wanna die?

But that's what Liches are made for! You gloriously kick ass and then suddenly die.

Steve is a miracle worker truly. Knows exactly what players want.

Seriously people, why is Bruce Lee's death the only thing that comes to mind when someone says Bruce Lee? That's like Prince only being known as that popstar that died, when he was one of the greatest popstars of his time.

[Miyabi-sama]

1 минуту назад, QuinnCarter сказал:

Seriously people, why is Bruce Lee's death the only thing that comes to mind when someone says Bruce Lee? That's like Prince only being known as that popstar that died, when he was one of the greatest popstars of his time.

Uh... who's Prince? Is he some relative for 2pac?

Glad I wasn't around in time when Bruce was kickin'. I was hanging around in ether or something similar getting ready to be incepted. So yeah, my heroes of childhood were Jackie, Arnold and Jean-Claude, who weren't invincible at all, opposed to Brucey (yeah, I tried to watch his movies, that was as challenging as doing endurance runs in WF, since yawns are your arch-enemy in those endeavours).

Aaaaaaanyway, to think of it, ripping off the so-called "nemesis" system from a game centered on one badass character dealing with those nemesises (nemesie?) with flying colors wasn't great move. Yes I saw VODs about Shadows of Mordor, protag has no problem dealing with any threat by using wide spectrum of instruments, be it skills or weapons.

Considering that game has a great rpg-ish skilltree the player can be in trouble dealing with really tough one orcs... which is badly translated in Warframe, since any decently geared son of a Lotus can rip apart some Lich. Hence in final grasp of adding "challenge" devs pooped with existing "insta ded" system and served the result on a platinum platter.

Seriously, protag in WF has nearly no hindrances in progression as SoM protag do, just go farm meta stuff, no struggle. And you can even call your friends if you have problems. Moreover, Lich does not change as it levels up, does not change resistances, behavior, guns etc.

[Kefirno]

What's the problem with being killed? It's not good old days when we had 4 revives a day per frame. I tried fighting my first few liches every time they spawn to bruteforce the combination, it was just massive waste of time due to bullet sponges enemies turn into after lich hits lvl 5.

20 hours ago, Leyvonne said:

Easiest solution; lich only spawns when playing solo. I mean they are supposed to be our personal enemy, but now they making other players the enemy because of the "I want everyone to play MY way" attitude.

You're literally asking for more grind. Farming murmurs in group with active lich in the mission is the best way to speed up the grind because liches spawn more thralls and multiple people kills thralls faster (obviously).

Edited November 11, 2019 by Kefirno

[Leyvonne]

2 hours ago, Kefirno said:

You're literally asking for more grind. Farming murmurs in group with active lich in the mission is the best way to speed up the grind because liches spawn more thralls and multiple people kills thralls faster (obviously).

Murmurs could still be farmed in a group and thralls + the murmurs they give should ofc be adjusted accourding to the change in lich spawns. I'd just remove murmurs from lich and increase the amount thralls give if lich only spawned when solo. For me the grind isn't even an issue since I don't care about the weapons so I'm not in a rush to kill a million liches. The thing that bothers me is how the system makes players behave towards each other. I have never seen this community be so hostile towards how someone else chooses to play the game.

[Tsukinoki]

6 hours ago, Kefirno said:

What's the problem with being killed? It's not good old days when we had 4 revives a day per frame. I tried fighting my first few liches every time they spawn to bruteforce the combination, it was just massive waste of time due to bullet sponges enemies turn into after lich hits lvl 5.

Three problems with dieing to lich, which is required to progress (unless you just happen to be extremely lucky):
-Lose 10% affinity which is very annoying when trying to level something
-Lich becomes more and more of a bloody bullet sponge.
-It just feels bad.  And honestly its one of the few systems in warframe that just feels very bad to deal with.

On 2019-11-10 at 2:07 AM, Leyvonne said:

Easiest solution; lich only spawns when playing solo. I mean they are supposed to be our personal enemy, but now they making other players the enemy because of the "I want everyone to play MY way" attitude.

So basically remove even more co-op from the game because "reasons" instead of trying to make the system co-op friendly.
Such a great idea! /s
Further screw people who want to do things with their friends, and utterly screw people who can't handle a solo level 110 lich and yet are stuck with a level 5 lich that controls a majority of the starchart and is taking all of their rewards!
They must deserve having sortie items and other hard to grind items (such as mantis engines, or even boosters from rare containers, and not even quest reward items are safe, etc) taken for them with nothing they can do about it!

Yeah...I can't see any way that forcing the lich hunts to solo would go wrong....absolutely no way at all....I mean outside of all of the people that would just suddenly be stranded with level 110 liches that they can't do anything about and were pubbing it because they don't have the gear to solo a level 110 mission (I mean I've seen MR5 people with level 5 liches because they tried getting into the system and now can't do anything about it on their own because you're required to die and level the lich up to progress through the system, and even if you only actually attempt to kill your lich when you know all three words it could still take the lich getting to level 4, which is well outside their means of dealing with it, to get the right combination because they were unlucky.  Hek they could have even listened to the people that told them to always try to kill their liches in pubs and are now stuck with the lich controlling the majority of their starchart.)

Edited November 11, 2019 by Tsukinoki

[Mach25]

On 2019-11-10 at 7:01 PM, MirageKnight said:

How about getting rid of the whole stupid and arbitrary "press x to die and level up your enemy" mechanic? Seriously, that would be great encouragement.

The LIch has been battered to the point where its on its damn knees. You jab it - but it turns out you have the wrong secret code. Then it goes "LMBO - wrong code bro, I win! GET REKT" and proceeds to one hit kill you and buggers off in triumph. Because the game says so.

Tell me again how this is reasonable or fair to the player?

The Lich nemesis should be defeated by "normal" means, but require the Parazon with the right phrase sequence to either kill it for its weapon or convert to an ally.

Conversely, attempting a jab with the Parazon without the right mod sequence should never result in the player getting killed, nor should it level up the Lich. Instead, have the Lich nemesis initiate an emergency teleport escape to fight another day ("Next time, Batman!") but you get a better clue as to how to beat it the next time it shows its ugly mug. Following up on that, the Lich should only be able to level up if it actually defeats you (and perhaps other players) in a fight. We rank up gear as we defeat enemies do we not? The Lich nemesis should therefore operate by the same rules we do if we want the system to be fair.

FTFY.

I wish this man would just take over the gaming industry in general.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Mach25