Obsolete Abilities - time to change

[alseltas]

First of all, I'm not very well at English, so please forgive me if I made terrible mistakes.

Warframe evolves constantly. There were new stuffs brought to the game in this year including most recent Old Blood and shiny new frames. While new stuffs come and the game shines more, I feel some older things are left collecting dust. In my mind, especially some abilities became obsolete and does not suit in the game now. I think those abilities can be divided into several types following how they are outdated. Below are lists of those abilities for each type. Keep in mind this is my personal opinion, and I haven't tested all 69 frames. Any discussion and addition are welcome.

 

1. Non recastable duration based abilities - This kind of abilities usually have good self buff and should be activated all the time, yet they cannot be recast while the time counts are remaining. Although low armor frames such as Loki highly depend on this kind of abilities, they can recast the abilities only after the effect expired, making them off guard enough to be one-shot. Considering there are recastable duration based abilities such as Octavia's 3, This kind of abilities should be recastable as well.

Spoiler

• Ash's 2
• Chroma's 2
• Loki's 2
• Mesa's 2 and 3
• Mirage's 1
• Valkyr's 2
• Zephyr's 3

 

2. Abilities with no practical use - Those abilities are basically useless. In any direction I could not find any use. Should be replaced by other abilities.

Spoiler

• Chroma's 1
• Excalibur's 3
• Frost's 2
• Nekros's 1
• Valkyr's 1 and 3
• Titania's Entangle and Full Moon
• Vauban's Vector Pad
• Zephyr's 1

 

3. Decent effect abilities with poor utilities - Abilities that have good effect yet with some flaws like insane energy drain or difficult targeting system making them hard to use constantly. 

Spoiler

• Ash's 4
• Chroma's 4
• Ivara's 1(other than Sleep one), 2, and 4(only with the augment)
• Loki's 1(Stupidly low durability)
• Mirage's 4
• NYX's 4
• Vauban's Over Driver, Tether Grenade, 3 and 4

 

4. RNG Random elements based abilities - those abilities are great if only random elements (enemies type, status chance, etc) are not involved. It's sad and lethal when the effect does not appear as you expected.

Spoiler

• Ash's 3 (sadly you can't activate finisher when a enemy is on slope or is specific type mob)
• Titania's Dust, 3 and 4(evasion)
• Vauban's 1
• Mirage's 3

 

5. Nuisance abilities - Counter co-play abilities that making your mates angry. Those abilities usually decreasing kill speed, yet sometimes It is helpful when you don't need kill enemies or you are in danger.

Spoiler

• Loki's 4(with the augment)
• Nekros's 2
• Nyx's 3
• Titania's 1
• Zephyr's 2 and 4

 

6. Abilities that depend on augments 

Spoiler

• Frost 2
• Nekros 2
• Nyx 4
• Valkyr 3

I really hope DE focus on fixing and adjusting old stuffs after the New War released as I remember some games that brainlessly made new stuff and eventually terminated itself.

Edited December 12, 2019 by alseltas

[Skythin]

I did not read everything but Zephyr's 1 is far from useless. It's a movement ability and it does exactly that.

[Aadi880]

45 minutes ago, alseltas said:

• Valkyr's 1
• Zephyr's 1

These abilites are far from useless. They are purely for traversal, and are good that their job. These abilites will be more used if maps were bigger, which they will be when DE releases the corpus ship tilset rework, like they have done so with Jupiter.

48 minutes ago, alseltas said:

 

4. RNG based abilities - those abilities are great if only random elements (enemies type, status chance, etc) are not involved. It's sad and lethal when the effect does not appear as you expected.

  Hide contents

• Ash's 3 (sadly you can't activate finisher when a enemy is on slope or is specific type mob)
• Mirage's 3
• Titania's Dust, 3 and 4(evasion)

 

How the heck are these RNG?

Titania's 3 is lantern. There is no RNG to this, Enemies WILL be caught in the lantern.

Mirage's 3? Are you talking about the dark form "evasion"? You should know that this gives DR, which is its primary use.

How is Ash's teleport RNG? Teleporting is in COMPLETE control to the player. RNG does not decide what enemies the player jumps to, the player decides. There is nothing random in this that I can think of.

[Jiminez_Burial]

You're joking about half of these right?  The only things I agree with you on are your 1. group, Chroma and Nekros' first abilities, nyx's fourth ability and the Vauban abilities.  If you didn't have those then I would have jumped to calling this a troll post.  

Edited December 12, 2019 by Jiminez_Burial

[alseltas]

45 minutes ago, Skythin said:

I did not read everything but Zephyr's 1 is far from useless. It's a movement ability and it does exactly that.

 

11 minutes ago, Aadi880 said:

These abilites are far from useless. They are purely for traversal, and are good that their job. These abilites will be more used if maps were bigger, which they will be when DE releases the corpus ship tilset rework, like they have done so with Jupiter.

I know those 2 abilities are used as movement ability, and comparing to other movement abilities like Gauss'1 or Wukong's 2, stated those into category 1. Huge energy cost, hard to control(Zephr's 1 with high duration) and weak CC are enough to not use them. Operator dash do better job.

16 minutes ago, Aadi880 said:

How the heck are these RNG?

Titania's 3 is lantern. There is no RNG to this, Enemies WILL be caught in the lantern.

Mirage's 3? Are you talking about the dark form "evasion"? You should know that this gives DR, which is its primary use.

How is Ash's teleport RNG? Teleporting is in COMPLETE control to the player. RNG does not decide what enemies the player jumps to, the player decides. There is nothing random in this that I can think of.

Titania - Enemies ramdomly ignore the lantern and start to shoot you even if there is no obstacle. 

Mirage - The dark form are tied with light condition, and can be disabled by any light, even some weapon's light. You cannot control which and how much effect you receive.

Ash - You can't select which types of enemies spawn(same thing as Titania's 2), and most importantly, random terrain easily disables the finisher. 

15 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

You're joking about half of these right?  The only things I agree with you on are your 1. group, you Chroma and Nekros' first abilities, nyx's fourth ability and the Vauban abilities.  If you didn't have those then I would have jumped to calling this a troll post.  

Without any proof you call my post as a troll? Be not troll yourself and respectful. 

[Aadi880]

2 minutes ago, alseltas said:

Titania - Enemies ramdomly ignore the lantern and start to shoot you even if there is no obstacle. 

Mirage - The dark form are tied with light condition, and can be disabled by any light, even some weapon's light. You cannot control which and how much effect you receive.

Ash - You can't select which types of enemies spawn(same thing as Titania's 2), and most importantly, random terrain easily disables the finisher. 

Never had that problem with Titania's 3, so I can't say anything about your experience. My case, Enemies always are manipulated. If this those not happen to you, then there might be a bug, or broken AI.

Also, I think you have a different meaning of "Randomness". If a player has complete control on an ability, its not random.

You can control Mirage's 3 by NOT going into dark. Going into dark areas was YOUR decision, not some Random Number Generator's work (RNG). Also, the effect controlled is a fixed value, meaning it CAN be controlled since there are 2 possible outcomes (nothing in between), said outcomes are affected by player's choice of walking into said areas, or using self damage  and weapon's muzzle flash does not affect it.

If you had known how Mirage as Eidolon hunter worked, you would not call this ability "RNG based" at all.

There is no such thing as "random terrain" in warframe. I think you mean something different.

[Jiminez_Burial]

33 minutes ago, alseltas said:

Without any proof you call my post as a troll? Be not troll yourself and respectful. 

Challenge accepted then (though you're making the claim in the affirmative so the burden of proof should really be with you).

Excalibur 3:  It's a radial damage ability when excalibur would otherwise have targeted damage abilities.

Frost 2:  Cheaper form of CC than Avalanche and wider reaching than Freeze

Valkyr 1 and 3:  Traversal and the ability to open enemies to finishers.

Zephyr 1: Traversal

Ash 4:  Not hard to use.  And considering his other abilities don't take much energy you shouldn't ever be starved for energy,

Ivara 1:  Dashwire Arrow is useful for elevated sight-lines in zone control missions (def, intercept, md etc), Sleep Arrow is good cc, and Cloak Arrow is invisibility so of course it's good.

Titania Full Moon:  You're calling a +75% damage bonus useless?

Loki 1:  Deployable Switch Teleport target.

Ash 3:  Nothing RNG about it.  That's a terrain bug, not use of a Random Number Generator

Mirage 3:  Damage boost or damage reduction based on lighting of current environment.  It doesn't randomly decide to be one or the other, the light threshold just isn't well defined.  Again, not a use of a Random Number Generator.

Titania 3 and 4:  Again, not RNG.  For the third ability you target a specific enemy and then it's motion is based on physics inputs such as melee, bullets or other abilities.  For the fourth ability... it's just miniature Archwing using weapons.  I really think you need to research what RNG is.

And the entirety of your 5. category:  It's CC.  That's like saying a spoon is a bad utensil because it's inefficient at cutting food.  It's not a problem with the abilities, it's a problem with the people using them.  And guess what, you chose to be in a mission with other people so you open yourself up to others using abilities in ways you personally find annoying.

 

    

Edited December 12, 2019 by Jiminez_Burial

[NekroArts]

1 hour ago, alseltas said:

1. Non recastable duration based abilities - This kind of abilities usually have usually good self buff and should be activated all the time, yet they cannot be recast while the time counts are remaining. Although low armor frames such as Loki high depends on this kind of abilities, they can recast the abilities only after the effect expired, making them off guard enough to be one-shot. Considering there are recastable duration based abilities such as Octavia's 3, This kind of abilities should be recastable as well.

  Reveal hidden contents

• Ash's 2
• Chroma's 2
• Loki's 2
• Mesa's 2 and 3
• Valkyr's 2

 

Ash's Smokescreen and Loki's Invisibility shouldn't be. With how "invincible" Octavia's invisibility allows her to be, best not to pass that trend to others. Plus, with two  great ways to get energy (Zenurik and Arcane Energize) just perpetuates the play-style of "killing without having to worry about any threats to the point of non existent".

Mesa kind of walks on the same line as Ash and Loki.

1 hour ago, alseltas said:

2. Abilities with no practical use - Those abilities are basically useless. In any direction I could not find any use. Should be replaced by other abilities.

  Reveal hidden contents

• Chroma's 1
• Excalibur's 3
• Frost's 2
• Nekros's 1
• Titania's Entangle and Full Moon
• Valkyr's 1 and 3
• Vauban's Vector Pad
• Zephyr's 1

 

Not replace, make better.

1 hour ago, alseltas said:

3. Decent effect abilities with poor mechanics - Abilities that have good effect yet with some flaws like insane energy drain or difficult targeting system making them hard to use constantly. 

  Hide contents

• Ash's 4
• Chroma's 4
• Ivara's 1(other than Sleep one), 2, and 4(only with the augment)
• Loki's 1(Stupidly low durability)
• NYX's 4
• Vauban's Over Driver, Tether Grenade, 3

 

FIFY.

1 hour ago, alseltas said:

4. RNG based abilities - those abilities are great if only random elements (enemies type, status chance, etc) are not involved. It's sad and lethal when the effect does not appear as you expected.

  Hide contents

• Ash's 3 (sadly you can't activate finisher when a enemy is on slope or is specific type mob)
• Mirage's 3
• Titania's Dust, 3 and 4(evasion)
• Vauban's 1

 

It's not random with Ash, it's whether you are aware that it can or can't in said situation.

1 hour ago, alseltas said:

5. Nuisance abilities - Counter co-play abilities that making your mates angry. Those abilities usually decreasing kill speed, yet sometimes It is helpful when you don't need kill enemies or you are in danger.

  Hide contents

• Loki's 4(with the augment)
• Nekros's 2
• Nyx's 3
• Titania's 1
• Zephyr's 2 and 4

 

The mission types that you're referring to are the kind where you have to kill. Loki, Nekros, and Nyx listed works well in those that don't have to. So if you come across players that using them and it's delaying progression, that's the player's fault not the abilities.

Edited December 12, 2019 by NekroArts

[alseltas]

1 hour ago, Aadi880 said:

Never had that problem with Titania's 3, so I can't say anything about your experience. My case, Enemies always are manipulated. If this those not happen to you, then there might be a bug, or broken AI.

Also, I think you have a different meaning of "Randomness". If a player has complete control on an ability, its not random.

You can control Mirage's 3 by NOT going into dark. Going into dark areas was YOUR decision, not some Random Number Generator's work (RNG). Also, the effect controlled is a fixed value, meaning it CAN be controlled since there are 2 possible outcomes (nothing in between), said outcomes are affected by player's choice of walking into said areas, or using self damage  and weapon's muzzle flash does not affect it.

If you had known how Mirage as Eidolon hunter worked, you would not call this ability "RNG based" at all.

There is no such thing as "random terrain" in warframe. I think you mean something different.

guess I misunderstood how RNG means. maybe ramdom elements are corret. It seems categorize true RNG things with just ramdom situational things into a piece is my mistake.

Oh my bad, mirage 3 is not affected by weapon's light as I tested penta's napalm grenade(guess though of it with fire status effect) . I saw the fixed value. It still depends on situation though, its not so random and easy to manipulate.

Random terrain is not also correct word. I guess "terrain where the enemies ramdomly goes"? but It seems also situational and not RNG.

1 hour ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

Challenge accepted then (though you're making the claim in the affirmative so the burden of proof should really be with you).

Excalibur 3:  It's a radial damage ability when excalibur would otherwise have targeted damage abilities.

Frost 2:  Cheaper form of CC than Avalanche and wider reaching than Freeze

Valkyr 1 and 3:  Traversal and the ability to open enemies to finishers.

Zephyr 1: Traversal

Ash 4:  Not hard to use.  And considering his other abilities don't take much energy you shouldn't ever be starved for energy,

Ivara 1:  Dashwire Arrow is useful for elevated sight-lines in zone control missions (def, intercept, md etc), Sleep Arrow is good cc, and Cloak Arrow is invisibility so of course it's good.

Titania Full Moon:  You're calling a +75% damage bonus useless?

Loki 1:  Deployable Switch Teleport target.

Ash 3:  Nothing RNG about it.  That's a terrain bug, not use of a Random Number Generator

Mirage 3:  Damage boost or damage reduction based on lighting of current environment.  It doesn't randomly decide to be one or the other, the light threshold just isn't well defined.  Again, not a use of a Random Number Generator.

Titania 3 and 4:  Again, not RNG.  For the third ability you target a specific enemy and then it's motion is based on physics inputs such as melee, bullets or other abilities.  For the fourth ability... it's just miniature Archwing using weapons.  I really think you need to research what RNG is.

And the entirety of your 5. category:  It's CC.  That's like saying a spoon is a bad utensil because it's inefficient at cutting food.  It's not a problem with the abilities, it's a problem with the people using them.  And guess what, you chose to be in a mission with other people so you open yourself up to others using abilities in ways you personally find annoying.

 

    

I didn't challenge you though....

Excalibur 3: Radial mediocre damage with max number of 12.

Frost 2: Still cannot find out in what situation you use. If enemies are in front of me, shooting them is enough in most cases.

Valkyr 1 and 3: Pointless traversal and the ability to open enemies to finishers for a few seconds. 

Zephyr 1 : above

Ash 4: directly aim targeting system and relatively slow animation. When you can aim enemies you can shoot. I have no complain about energy.

Ivara 1: if the zipline are activated or not is situational, but It is still useful. I have no complain about Sleep one, and Cloak arrow is hard to land your allies. 

Titania: tell me where you need companion damage bonus as much as you want to stay outside of Razorwing. In Razoewing, Razorfly's damage is meh...

Loki: yes it is. still doesn't work as decoy though

Ash 3: terrain bug is correct word. you right.  

Mirage 3: yep.

Titania 3 and 4: for 3 as I said above. Even with 4's evasion if a bullet hits or not is completely RNG.

category 5: As I clearly said, its useful in some situations. 

1 hour ago, NekroArts said:

Ash's Smokescreen and Loki's Invisibility shouldn't be. With how "invincible" Octavia's invisibility allows her to be, best not to pass that trend to others. Plus, with two  great ways to get energy (Zenurik and Arcane Energize) just perpetuates the play-style of "killing without having to worry about any threats to the point of non existent".

Mesa kind of walks on the same line as Ash and Loki.

 

I know what you are feeling. I didn't think invisibility turns into invincible as I've seen so many dead Octavias in arbitration, and in my personal experience, stray shots lured by allies oneshot me sometimes. However, your opinion is another way to go.

Mesa grants 95% DR only to bullets, so I still wanna see her abilities recastable.

Edited December 12, 2019 by alseltas

[Awazx]

100% according to the content of this thread (and I have read it all).

[Aadi880]

7 minutes ago, alseltas said:

Valkyr 1 and 3: Pointless traversal and the ability to open enemies to finishers for a few seconds. 

Zephyr 1 : above

Traversal is not really pointless. Its almost mandatory in Jupiter if you want to travel quickly. DE will also be doing the same thing with Corpus ship tilesets, making it more required. Its a utility ability, only needed when its needed. 

About you point in energy cost, Valkyr's 1 has a reduced energy cost by half on a double cast (This stacks with more casting), which alleviates energy management. Its actually quite energy efficient. Compared to Gauss: Ripline can change direction at will regardless of initial momentum but gauss cannot, and has a slower turn (harder handling).

 

 

About Ash's 3 on sloped enemies, I would walk towards then before initiating a finisher, just to be sure, otherwise, it seems to be a problem with the game treating ash's position, not the ability in itself.

[alseltas]

6 minutes ago, Aadi880 said:

Traversal is not really pointless. Its almost mandatory in Jupiter if you want to travel quickly. DE will also be doing the same thing with Corpus ship tilesets, making it more required. Its a utility ability, only needed when its needed. 

About you point in energy cost, Valkyr's 1 has a reduced energy cost by half on a double cast (This stacks with more casting), which alleviates energy management. Its actually quite energy efficient. Compared to Gauss: Ripline can change direction at will regardless of initial momentum but gauss cannot, and has a slower turn (harder handling).

 

 

About Ash's 3 on sloped enemies, I would walk towards then before initiating a finisher, just to be sure, otherwise, it seems to be a problem with the game treating ash's position, not the ability in itself.

 Reducing energy cost is nice, only if I have to use it multiple times.  As I tested just now Gauss can ignore last momentum every time activate his 1.  But yes, using them in a Jupiter is not a bad experience.  Mostly operator dash is enough and safe, but If DE gives reduced cost and better control for Zephyr, increased momentum and some CC for Valkyr, I would love to use them a lot more in normal missions.

 

 I hope DE have a plan to fix ash again 🙂

 

[Andele3025]

3 hours ago, alseltas said:

Warframe evolves constantly. There were new stuffs brought to the game in this year including most recent Old Blood and shiny new frames. While new stuffs come and the game shines more, I feel some older things are left collecting dust. In my mind, especially some abilities became obsolete and does not suit in the game now. I think those abilities can be divided into several types following how they are outdated. Below are lists of those abilities for each type. Keep in mind this is my personal opinion, and I haven't tested all 69 frames. Any discussion and addition are welcome.

 

2. Abilities with no practical use - Those abilities are basically useless. In any direction I could not find any use. Should be replaced by other abilities.

  Hide contents

• Frost's 2
• Nekros's 1
• Valkyr's 1 and 3
• Zephyr's 1

 

3. Decent effect abilities with poor utilities - Abilities that have good effect yet with some flaws like insane energy drain or difficult targeting system making them hard to use constantly. 

  Hide contents

• Ash's 4
• Chroma's 4
• Ivara's 1(other than Sleep one), 2, and 4(only with the augment)
• Loki's 1(Stupidly low durability)
• Vauban's Over Driver, Tether Grenade, 3 and 4

 

To correct some wrongs in here:
Frost 2 is a big fat aoe chill. Sure it and its augment got nerfed massively for status dot/slash builds with the slow nerf, but they do their job (remember, his 4 doesnt always kill enemies to trigger a cold proc and even then its a much smaller area his 4 can chill proc than his 2).
Nekros 1 cant scale damage but its the highest range 1 handed cc covering his gameloops weakspot (you want to be up close with nekros at least to some degree thus for such situations with aoe you have terrify, so sole heavies hiding off or floating enemies when in melee that DE started adding to not be knockdownable easily with a slam such as OV and gas jetpack dudes and planes grineer).
Valkyr 1 just has its pull strengths reverse of what they should be (if anything related to her 1 is actually useless/should be replaced its the augment since the ability innately gives a discount on follup casts, IMO augment should extend that combo window of ripline and on use reset her double jump) while the 3 is a very solid finisher opener (or with augment solid aoe pull that trades speed for reliability/not yeeting enemies 2 rooms behind you like mag 1)
Zeph 1 is float, slam and generally solid movement.
Ash 4 works perfectly well.
Chroma in general needs a rework but as far as the function of his 4 as a ability on its own goes the biggest issue on it is just the fiddlyness of its credits boosting effect.
Ivaras worst 1 part is that noise arrow uses enemy detection aggro instead of being a hard taunt (like GD or gara mirror spin) which just means that its fiddly to use in teamplay; the cloak and dashwire are perfect.
Loki 1 duration is 25s.
All 4 of vabuans abilities you noted (well 2 1/4ths of 1 and 2 others) are extremely generous with their targetting.

And for Nekros Terrify and Nyx bubble, they just need their augments baked in default (a 40% slow and a 30% speed walk with ability to shoot).

[alseltas]

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

To correct some wrongs in here:
Frost 2 is a big fat aoe chill. Sure it and its augment got nerfed massively for status dot/slash builds with the slow nerf, but they do their job (remember, his 4 doesnt always kill enemies to trigger a cold proc and even then its a much smaller area his 4 can chill proc than his 2).
Nekros 1 cant scale damage but its the highest range 1 handed cc covering his gameloops weakspot (you want to be up close with nekros at least to some degree thus for such situations with aoe you have terrify, so sole heavies hiding off or floating enemies when in melee that DE started adding to not be knockdownable easily with a slam such as OV and gas jetpack dudes and planes grineer).
Valkyr 1 just has its pull strengths reverse of what they should be (if anything related to her 1 is actually useless/should be replaced its the augment since the ability innately gives a discount on follup casts, IMO augment should extend that combo window of ripline and on use reset her double jump) while the 3 is a very solid finisher opener (or with augment solid aoe pull that trades speed for reliability/not yeeting enemies 2 rooms behind you like mag 1)
Zeph 1 is float, slam and generally solid movement.
Ash 4 works perfectly well.
Chroma in general needs a rework but as far as the function of his 4 as a ability on its own goes the biggest issue on it is just the fiddlyness of its credits boosting effect.
Ivaras worst 1 part is that noise arrow uses enemy detection aggro instead of being a hard taunt (like GD or gara mirror spin) which just means that its fiddly to use in teamplay; the cloak and dashwire are perfect.
Loki 1 duration is 25s.
All 4 of vabuans abilities you noted (well 2 1/4ths of 1 and 2 others) are extremely generous with their targetting.

And for Nekros Terrify and Nyx bubble, they just need their augments baked in default (a 40% slow and a 30% speed walk with ability to shoot).

People seem to love movement abilities, so I will make an edit.

Frost 2 with the augment is not bad, yet normal version is hilarious.

Nekros 1 is still a small CC. making few enemies gone instead of kill.

Valkyr 3 is useful with its augment, but normal version just let you finisher 1~3 nearby enemies at a time.

Loki 1 has extremely low EHP

Ivara 1 is basically useful. I wrote flaws above. And in fact, noise arrow is still do great job in Jupiter Interception, otherwise it is silly useless though.

Vauban Overdriver has a problem to land allies.  Tether Grenade catch only 2 enemies and make them stuck onto obstacles.  3 explodes in air, Bastille's armor buff is slow, weak, lasts short, and it has a limitation of affected enemies. Vortex makes enemies stuck onto obstacles.

I guess there is a new category of abilities that are not practically usable without augment.  Some of listed abilities can be moved there.

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by alseltas

[selig_fay]

I can relate Titania's razorwing to all these points:

4 часа назад, alseltas сказал:

3. Decent effect abilities with poor utilities - Abilities that have good effect yet with some flaws like insane energy drain or difficult targeting system making them hard to use constantly.

We have an energy problem. If you don't feel it, just do normal energy efficiency and remove Arcane Energyze. So same we we have restrictions in choosing weapons, and our companions hide. When you consider all this, razorwing limits our builds.

4 часа назад, alseltas сказал:

4. RNG Random elements based abilities - those abilities are great if only random elements (enemies type, status chance, etc) are not involved. It's sad and lethal when the effect does not appear as you expected.

Evasion is not the only problem. To be in razorwing, you need orbs of energy because nothing else can restore your energy. Also, you can't control the survival of your razorfly because they die randomly and can die all at once from 1 missile.

4 часа назад, alseltas сказал:

5. Nuisance abilities - Counter co-play abilities that making your mates angry. Those abilities usually decreasing kill speed, yet sometimes It is helpful when you don't need kill enemies or you are in danger.

It's very simple. You can't disable razorfly and it slows down opponents on defense mission. (since we need this on small missions, razorfly won't die fast) It also activates the alarm on spy missions. So same razorfly can affect enemies, which raised in air (spellbind and latern), and is obtained, that Titania prevents itself. 

And I would introduce another point where razorwing fits perfectly:

6. Abilities that break the game: Abilities that have a large number of bugs or imperfections in the game mechanics that players can use for their own benefit or interfere with the gameplay.

Ohhhh. This point can greatly expand your understanding of the game. And razorwing is not the only one. I think Loki's teleport still has the ability to break the game.

You might say I'm quibbling, but that's the realities of the game. 

[Andele3025]

17 minutes ago, alseltas said:

Frost 2 with the augment is not bad, yet normal version is hilarious.

Actually, its better without its augment because the augment costs a mod that could be used for range or efficiency and a cold proc is still ok even post nerf/its still a 100% chance for 50% slow.

Quote

Nekros 1 is still a small CC. making few enemies gone instead of kill.

Knocked down or killed. If you yeet a enemy in any area where they would be "gone", they tend to get stuck in ragdoll state or hit out of bounds thus despawn and give you affinity (even if it doesnt count as a kill, it gives you the benefit like one), ESPECIALLY when its a flying enemy and going melee. Alternatively you can also use it as a knockdown while gap closing because its rare on the ability side of being in the above 25m range. And its 1 handed. Its only flaw is that at higher levels it merely tickles the enemy and cant be used vs enemies with invul body/doesnt target weakspots like most abilities.

Quote

Vauban Overdriver has a problem to land allies.

Overdrive actively bounces to allies. It might have a issue if it targets pets and sentinels and the ui lies about who got the buff in which case it needs to be fixed, but it literally aimbots to the closest ally. Only issue one can have with it is if ones allies are faster than you which is a issue of coordination.

Quote

Tether Grenade catch only 2 enemies and make them stuck onto obstacles. 

It pulls them to it. Its literally its job. It does seem to currently be buggy in terms of not letting go of enemies stuck in bastille, but even with that it works.

Quote

3 explodes in air

3 explodes if it was out for long enough/is on a timer.

Quote

Bastille's armor buff is slow, weak, lasts short,

Its 1k (not amazing, but as a free benefit on a double ability thats more than solid enough and actually lets vauban with adaptation tank for a bit/survive non-bombard or nade burst to survive later on if you want to tank with him), its infinite if you are in bastille and has 10s base duration.

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and it has a limitation of affected enemies.

Which scales with power strength and doesnt matter because bastilles in the same area stack.

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Andele3025

[alseltas]

On 2019-12-12 at 9:34 PM, Andele3025 said:

Actually, its better without its augment because the augment costs a mod that could be used for range or efficiency and a cold proc is still ok even post nerf/its still a 100% chance for 50% slow.

I don't think cold proc is worth to the cast animation, but I will try more. 

On 2019-12-12 at 9:34 PM, Andele3025 said:

Knocked down or killed. If you yeet a enemy in any area where they would be "gone", they tend to get stuck in ragdoll state or hit out of bounds thus despawn and give you affinity (even if it doesnt count as a kill, it gives you the benefit like one), ESPECIALLY when its a flying enemy and going melee. Alternatively you can also use it as a knockdown while gap closing because its rare on the ability side of being in the above 25m range. And its 1 handed. Its only flaw is that at higher levels it merely tickles the enemy and cant be used vs enemies with invul body/doesnt target weakspots like most abilities.

Sounds fun to use in open world. 

On 2019-12-12 at 9:34 PM, Andele3025 said:

3 explodes if it was out for long enough/is on a timer.

At the first time the Old Blood releases, It detonated only after touching the ground (or seen like that). Possibly a bug, and I want see fixed. 

On 2019-12-12 at 9:34 PM, Andele3025 said:

Its 1k, its infinite if you are in bastille and has 10s base duration.

Which scales with power strength and doesnt matter because bastilles in the same area stack.

I'd say only 1k. In high level mission it is not enough value to survive. Infinite but every time you move to place you have to throw bastilles on the halfway.before the buff expires.

To throw multiple bastilles it costs huge energy.  And in my personal opinion,  strength is always difficult to gain in Vauban build.

Edited December 17, 2019 by alseltas

[Andele3025]

5 minutes ago, alseltas said:

At the first time the Old Blood releases, It detonated only after touching the ground (or seen like that). Possibly a bug, and I want see fixed. 

Timer was longer thats all (why some people complained it took too long to explode even when they just dropped it into vortex from near point blank). Which is a bit derpy because the orb could have been coded to die/trigger the orbital drop on impact instead of timer fixing both issues.

5 minutes ago, alseltas said:

I'd say only 1k. In high level mission it is not enough value to survive. Infinite but every time you move to place you have to throw bastilles on the halfway.before the buff expires.

Depends on duration you build for.

5 minutes ago, alseltas said:

To throw multiple bastilles it costs huge energy.  And in my personal opinion,  strength is always difficult to gain in Vauban build.

Again, depends on your build. A single setup can be average at everything (140-190 positive across stats) or focus on 1-2 stats while dropping or keeping others close to 100% with augments usually letting 1-2 abilties skip/use a trick to avoid the downsides (e.g. orbitals 5hit for next free cast). That is a good thing.
While my sample size with vauban post rework is only some 6~7 survivals, a medium length disruption and trying a bit on sortied missions, a 170+ in all but efficiency at 130 distirbution is a perfect for everything to be spammable enough with zenurik while being a mass CC bastion.
Tho for a more spammy tanky setup just focusing on having 265% or more range and the 75% efficiency is solid enough/gives free slots if you want to be tanky and maily use melee/guns with the big succ.

[alseltas]

On 2019-12-12 at 10:42 PM, Andele3025 said:

Timer was longer thats all (why some people complained it took too long to explode even when they just dropped it into vortex from near point blank). Which is a bit derpy because the orb could have been coded to die/trigger the orbital drop on impact instead of timer fixing both issues.

that makes sense. 

On 2019-12-12 at 10:42 PM, Andele3025 said:

Again, depends on your build. A single setup can be average at everything (140-190 positive across stats) or focus on 1-2 stats while dropping or keeping others close to 100% with augments usually letting 1-2 abilties skip/use a trick to avoid the downsides (e.g. orbitals 5hit for next free cast). That is a good thing.
While my sample size with vauban post rework is only some 6~7 survivals, a medium length disruption and trying a bit on sortied missions, a 170+ in all but efficiency at 130 distirbution is a perfect for everything to be spammable enough with zenurik while being a mass CC bastion.
Tho for a more spammy tanky setup just focusing on having 265% or more range and the 75% efficiency is solid enough/gives free slots if you want to be tanky and maily use melee/guns with the big succ.

Yes, depends on build. His augment can't cover the downside. I don't know what skip/use a trick means, but his 3 augment just let you spam the photon strike every once in 1~2 sec on enemies under the Vortex, and that's all.  

I just tested your builds. The first one is of course relatively better at using Bastille than my arbitration Vortex build. However, it is still slow to just get 1k armor. In excavation it actually required to throw Bastille in a half way of place to place to just resume Bastille's armor. The second one has more time consuming set up for just 1k armor. But those build are pretty good, so I'm gonna modify them for arbitration Bastille build. I'm glad if you post Vauban's opinion here so that your opinion is considered by DE.

Edited December 17, 2019 by alseltas

[Aldain]

10 hours ago, alseltas said:

Decent effect abilities with poor utilities - Abilities that have good effect yet with some flaws like insane energy drain or difficult targeting system making them hard to use constantly.

 

10 hours ago, alseltas said:

Vauban's Over Driver, Tether Grenade, 3 and 4

U wot mate?

The only thing on there that remotely falls under that discription is Over Driver not having an order of operations for what it attaches to.

His 3 also might need to stop going off without hitting something first, but other than that I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Andele3025]

20 minutes ago, alseltas said:

Yes, depends on build. Augments can't cover the downside.I don't know what skip/use a trick means,

I just meant that from time to time on a frame, a augment lets you dump a stat you otherwise need for the ability or somehow circumvent the downside of dumping a stat (or even just keeping it low).

20 minutes ago, alseltas said:

but his 3 augment just let you spam the photon strike every once in 1~2 sec on enemies under the Vortex, and that's all. I just tested your builds.

Its not my builds, just how stats tend to work across most frames.

20 minutes ago, alseltas said:

The first one is of course relatively better at using Bastille than my arbitration Vortex build. However, it is still slow to just get 1k armor.

One thing for note is that Bastille armor only cares for enemy base armor and enemy count (it keeps ticking armor up even if no enemy with armor is in bastille as long as any enemy is still in it and that that scaling will stick (overlapping bastilles stacking in terms of enemies held for it, but not doubling up on the same enemy). Tho this is starting to go off topic.

 

 

[alseltas]

6 hours ago, Aldain said:

 

U wot mate?

The only thing on there that remotely falls under that discription is Over Driver not having an order of operations for what it attaches to.

His 3 also might need to stop going off without hitting something first, but other than that I have no idea what you're talking about.

Read above or u can read the Vauban feed back mega thread 

[(PSN)deathwolfclaw666]

I stopped using excalibur's 4 in favor of his 3. It's deadly and you can use mods like rage to build up energy fast as you spam 3.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2019-12-12 at 7:16 AM, alseltas said:

Decent effect abilities with poor utilities - Abilities that have good effect yet with some flaws like insane energy drain or difficult targeting system making them hard to use constantly. 

  Hide contents

• Ash's 4

Agreed. This is the reason why some ppl don`t like the ability.

Simple solution;

4th Ability:

·       When activating the ability, it will start instantly.

·       Pressing the ability will bring you into the animation while holding the ability will send clones out to kill instead of you.

·       If you want to jump out of bs, press the ability again and the clones will continue to kill enemies.

·       Enemies that are red can be killed by players.

·       There is no limit to how many enemies he can kill within the radius of the enemy he`s aiming at.

·       An indicator is shown of the number of enemies that are going to be killed by bs.

·       Sliding before activating will increase the animation speed by 20%.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

On 2019-12-12 at 3:12 AM, Aadi880 said:

These abilites will be more used if maps were bigger, which they will be when DE releases the corpus ship tilset rework, like they have done so with Jupiter.

Where is this info of DE saying anything about a Corpus ship rework? I wouldn't be surprised if there is no rework planned, on account of it probably being a problem to rework 3 areas that use it.