1000 Dirac = 1 Intrinsics point

[HintOfMalice]

13 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

If the game is fun, there is no reason to skip gameplay like that

Yeah, other than the reason's I listed, and whatever other reason someone may have, there is no reason. If you skip missions, you're not going to actually miss out on that content, so your "if it's fun people want rush" argument falls apart immediately. People are impatient. I'm fairly certain that you know that your argument is super weak, so I've no idea why you insist on making it.

13 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

If the game isn't fun, is a new frame or a new gun going to make it fun? I don't think so.

If the game isn't fun then why would people want to spend money on it? I wouldn't want to offend anyone but... that sounds really stupid.

 

People are impulsive and people are lazy. Wanting to have a shiny new thing as quickly is possible doesn't mean they don't want to play the game.

13 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Maxed out mods? Trade for with plat.

These mods have still had hours of time, millions of credits and thousands of endo poured into them.

 

13 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

But somehow that five minutes is what separates this game from being pay-to-win? Please.

The hours of time, in total, spent maxing mods and leveling gear is what makes it not a pay-to-win. That's not even considering the hours of experience needed to know how to use the mods/gear effectively. Again, I'm fairly certain anyone who has actually touched the game knows this, so I'm not sure why you're still trying to suggest such an outrageous idea.

Edited December 30, 2019 by HintOfMalice

[SordidDreams]

18 minutes ago, HintOfMalice said:

If the game isn't fun then why would people want to spend money on it? I wouldn't want to offend anyone but... that sounds really stupid.

To not have to play it. I did say that. If the game is fun, why would people want to play less of it? That's what sounds stupid to me, and you haven't answered that at all. In order for the pay-to-skip model to work, the game has to be a tedious chore. If it felt rewarding and satisfying, nobody would pay to skip it.

18 minutes ago, HintOfMalice said:

These mods have still had hours of time, millions of credits and thousands of endo poured into them.

Yeah, but not by you. You just bought them instantly with money. Everything you buy with money was made by someone else's labor, that's the whole point of money.

18 minutes ago, HintOfMalice said:

The hours of time, in total, spent maxing mods and leveling gear is what makes it not a pay-to-win.

Firstly, that's really stupid. Just because someone else earned something doesn't make it not pay-to-win when you just buy it. Secondly, you can actually directly buy credits and endo for plat if you have more money than sense. I'm fairly certain anyone who has actually touched the game knows this.

The best part of your reply was when you completely ignored my main point, which is that actually ranking up a frame is trivial compared to acquiring it. Your argument is that "it's not pay-to-win because my payment only took me 99% of the way there, I still need to put in that 1% of effort, which means I totally earned it".

Edited December 30, 2019 by SordidDreams

[HintOfMalice]

1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

If the game is fun, why would people want to play less of it?

Having this conversation would be a lot less laborious if you would actually read my reply before responding.

 

3 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Yeah, but not by you. You just bought them instantly with money.

By that logic, any game with a trade system is pay-to-win, since you can just trade for everything.

No, because that's not applicable to everyone. Someone has to grind it.

 

4 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Firstly, that's really stupid. Just because someone else earned something doesn't make it not pay-to-win when you just buy it.

Trading for an item with another player is not indicative of a pay-to-win marketing model.

 

6 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Secondly, you can actually directly buy credits and endo for plat

Not sure how you justify using words like "ridiculous" and "stupid" while you unironically suggest that someone is going to buy a Warframe, 3-5 forma, 10-or-so million credits and thousands of Endo for a game they don't enjoy playing.

And even though all of that is possible, I can buy a Warframe, and forma, and endo, and credits and I haven't given DE a penny. Thus, the game is conclusively not pay-to-win. Someone who pays has no advantage over me.

 

18 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

I'm fairly certain anyone who has actually touched the game knows this.

I was about to say that I'm sure you can do better than just repeating my one-liners, but as this dialogue progresses, I'm losing my confidence in that claim.

[SordidDreams]

6 minutes ago, HintOfMalice said:

By that logic, any game with a trade system is pay-to-win, since you can just trade for everything.

No, only those games where you can trade in-game items for premium currency that you bought with money.

6 minutes ago, HintOfMalice said:

Not sure how you justify using words like "ridiculous" and "stupid" while you unironically suggest that someone is going to buy a Warframe, 3-5 forma, 10-or-so million credits and thousands of Endo for a game they don't enjoy playing.

I feel the same way about your unironic suggestion that people pay to play less of a game they enjoy.

6 minutes ago, HintOfMalice said:

And even though all of that is possible, I can buy a Warframe, and forma, and endo, and credits and I haven't given DE a penny.

With plat you 'farmed' for, I assume? Where do you imagine that came from?

6 minutes ago, HintOfMalice said:

I was about to say that I'm sure you can do better than just repeating my one-liners, but as this dialogue progresses, I'm losing my confidence in that claim.

I was hoping you'd have a bit of an epiphany seeing your own sarcasm being applicable to yourself, but I, too, am losing confidence in your ability to do better.

Also, you still haven't addressed my main point, which is that actually ranking up a frame is trivial compared to acquiring it. Your argument is that "it's not pay-to-win because my payment only took me 99% of the way there, I still need to put in that 1% of effort, which means I totally earned it".

Edited December 30, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Awazx]

hace 5 horas, -AoN-CanoLathra- dijo:

The difference being that, if you could buy affinity directly, you wouldn't need to do any missions to get affinity.

And what is the problem? For that I pay, to receive comfort and benefits. Truth?

[HintOfMalice]

12 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

No, only those games where you can trade in-game items for premium currency that you bought with money.

Unfortunately, this doesn't make your point any less silly.

13 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

With plat you 'farmed' for, I assume? Where do you imagine that came from?

That's obviously a loaded question, so I'll develop my response more to propel the discussion.

Of course, that plat only came into the game because someone purchased it with real money (whether the buyer of my goods bought it, or he traded for it from someone who bought it, it started with a micro-transaction). Presumably with the intention of exchanging it for items to speed up their grind. However, once the plat is in my hands, I can then buy a warframe, or a booster, or a cosmetic or a damn firework. I have the opportunity to skip some of the grind - just as he had. We've been given the same opportunity, despite the fact that he paid, and I didn't. Thus, not pay-to-win.

16 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

I was hoping you'd have a bit of an epiphany seeing your own sarcasm being applicable to yourself, but I, too, am losing confidence in your ability to do better

Your failure is two-fold; I wasn't being sarcastic, and your sarcasm was not applicable to me.

16 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Also, you still haven't addressed my main point, which is that actually ranking up a frame is trivial compared to acquiring it. Your argument is that "it's not pay-to-win because my payment only took me 99% of the way there, I still need to put in that 1% of effort, which means I totally earned it".

A deliberate misconstrual of the argument doesn't make your point stronger, I'm afraid.

 

Your main point was that buying intrinsics was equivalent to affinity boosters. I countered it, so you went off on a tangent about how someone has the capacity to pump hundreds of pounds (dollars, euro, whatever) into a game they don't like, leaving them next to nothing left to do. Which I then countered by saying that free-to-play users can also shorten their grind by using the same skips that the pay-to-play player did. It'll take longer, but they can still do it.

Realistically, what you're looking at is someone spending money on a new Warframe, leveling it up, polarising it with Forma (which they farmed), equipping it with mods (which they farmed) and leveling the mods up with Endo (which they farmed) and Credits (which they farmed). Yes, they can buy credits, mods and endo. But that's not practical. Also, so can I.

Find me a player who spent a mere 5 minutes of their time (remember, this is the time that you suggested in the first place) going from new player to hour-long Arbitration player and I'll retract that statement. Not that it matters, because the fact that Plat can be traded for is more than enough to disqualify Warframe as a pay-to-win game.

 

And just a flash of advise: regurgitating different variations of "no u" isn't a good look, man.

 

[CarstairsTV]

@Joe_Barbarian@SordidDreamsYou two also seem to be forgetting that Affinity gains affect Intrinsic gains, so an Affinity Booster is already boosting Intrinsic gain. Intrinsic points are fine as they are now, no buying them for an easily obtainable currency that can be bought with platinum. Dirac is Railjack's version of Endo, and in no way should you be able to buy Affinity with Endo, so vice versa with Intrinsics and Dirac.

[Joe_Barbarian]

6 hours ago, Joe_Barbarian said:

Affinity booster increases your affinity gains, just like how the Smeeta cat buff works. You aren't directly paying for levels using a resource that can be bought with Plat. Like I said: Because that's a grey zone of Pay2Win and Pay to Progress faster. 

Booster = Pay to progress faster
Using a resource that is obtained through premium currency (platinum) to essentially level you up = Pay to win. But because it's also easily obtainable for most I wouldn't say it's game breaking Pay2Win but at the same time it's going beyond what you could classify as Pay to Progress faster.

 

2 minutes ago, Cephalon_Carstairs said:

@Joe_Barbarian@SordidDreamsYou two also seem to be forgetting that Affinity gains affect Intrinsic gains, so an Affinity Booster is already boosting Intrinsic gain. Intrinsic points are fine as they are now, no buying them for an easily obtainable currency that can be bought with platinum. Dirac is Railjack's version of Endo, and in no way should you be able to buy Affinity with Endo, so vice versa with Intrinsics and Dirac.

Yeah I completely forgot how affinity worked. Also I'm confused as to where I said that being able to trade Dirac for Intrinsic should happen or even supported that idea?

[SordidDreams]

12 minutes ago, HintOfMalice said:

Unfortunately, this doesn't make your point any less silly.

Saying so doesn't make it so.

12 minutes ago, HintOfMalice said:

that plat only came into the game because someone purchased it with real money (whether the buyer of my goods bought it, or he traded for it from someone who bought it, it started with a micro-transaction). Presumably with the intention of exchanging it for items to speed up their grind. However, once the plat is in my hands, I can then buy a warframe, or a booster, or a cosmetic or a damn firework. I have the opportunity to skip some of the grind - just as he had. We've been given the same opportunity, despite the fact that he paid, and I didn't. Thus, not pay-to-win

But you grinded for the items you traded for that plat in the first place. You didn't skip grind, you just exchanged it for a different grind. You didn't get anything for free. He paid and he got to skip his grind altogether. One payment made, one grind skipped. It works out. Thus, pay-to-win.

12 minutes ago, HintOfMalice said:

Realistically, what you're looking at is someone spending money on a new Warframe, leveling it up, polarising it with Forma (which they farmed), equipping it with mods (which they farmed) and leveling the mods up with Endo (which they farmed) and Credits (which they farmed). Yes, they can buy credits, mods and endo. But that's not practical.

Neither is paying 50p for 1K dirac. If "it's impractical" is enough to destroy my argument that other aspects of WF are pay-to-win, then it's also enough to destroy your argument that buying dirac with plat would be pay-to-win. Congratulations, you played yourself.

12 minutes ago, HintOfMalice said:

the fact that Plat can be traded for is more than enough to disqualify Warframe as a pay-to-win game

No, that's exactly what makes it pay-to-win, as I have been explaining and you have been failing to understand.

12 minutes ago, HintOfMalice said:

regurgitating different variations of "no u" isn't a good look, man

You're projecting again.

Edited December 30, 2019 by SordidDreams

[CarstairsTV]

1 minute ago, Joe_Barbarian said:

Also I'm confused as to where I said that being able to trade Dirac for Intrinsic should happen or even supported that idea?

You didn't. The other person I tagged was defending it. There were like 10 quotes I was going to include, but I didn't want to waste that much time, so I just combined what I was saying into one and tagged you two.

[HintOfMalice]

2 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Saying so doesn't make it so.

Otherway around. It is, which is why I'm saying that it is.

3 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

You didn't get anything for free. He paid and he got to skip his grind altogether. One payment made, one grind skipped. It works out. Thus, pay-to-win.

No, that's not how it works. You're right that I didn't get anything for free, but neither did they. I grinded = they paid. Thus, not pay to win. Whether you pay or do not pay, you have all of the same opportunities. That means it isn't pay to win.

 

5 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Neither is paying 50p for 1K dirac. If "it's impractical" is enough to destroy my argument that other aspects of WF are pay-to-win, then it's also enough to destroy your argument that buying dirac with plat would be pay-to-win. Congratulations, you played yourself.

Woah. I haven't seen a leap in logic that drastic since I was last on the Overwatch forums. Buying Credits and Endo is not progression. You need to invest those into things in order to create the tools with which you can grind for progression. That is not the same as straight up buying progression. It is much more direct (and thus much more practical) to go Plat > Dirac > Intrinsic rather than Plat > Credits and Endo and mods > upgrade mods > do missions to get progression. That's false equivalence and you know it.

 

9 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

No, that's exactly what makes it pay-to-win, as I have been explaining and you have been failing to understand.

Totally backwards. Trading platinum gives free-to-players to access 100% of the games content. There are no hard paywalls (other than Tennogen, which is just cosmetic). A game with no pay walls cannot be pay-to-win.

10 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

You're projecting again.

I used to think it was funny how often people threw stuff like this out when they realised that they didn't have an argument but they were too stubbord to admit that they were wrong, now I'm just feeling neglegted. Was there 'Using Internet Buzzwords In Place Of A Substantial Argument" class that I didn't get invited to?

 

"Projecting" implies that I am guilty of a particular thing and that I have an insecurity as a result of it, and that as a coping mechanism I am accusing you of that very thing. Accusing me of projecting in this case would be to, not only claim that you are not haphazardly throwing out "no u" arguments but that I am.

Find me one.

 

Here are yours:

1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

If there's anything ridiculous here

 

53 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

I feel the same way about your

 

54 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

but I, too, am losing confidence in your ability to do better

The "again" would also imply that this isn't the first case of projection, so I'd love to hear about this first instance.

 

Sorry, but I'm not going to accept buzzwords as a substitute for an argument. Nor am I going to accept "ignored my argument" ad infinitum when I've already explained what could cause someone to want to skip grind in a game they enjoy. You haven't attempted to counter that point yet, but you still have the nerve to tell me I didn't make a point.

 

It's my opinion that Warframe isn't pay-to-win, and you're entitled to have an opposing opinion if you want. But I'm just surprised you're not embarassed to continue this discussion over how atrociously you've presented your side so far. Here's hoping that either the conversation ends, or your tact improves.

[SordidDreams]

7 minutes ago, HintOfMalice said:

You're right that I didn't get anything for free, but neither did they. I grinded = they paid. Thus, not pay to win. Whether you pay or do not pay, you have all of the same opportunities. That means it isn't pay to win.

Except for the opportunity to not subject yourself to soul-crushing grind, you mean?

7 minutes ago, HintOfMalice said:

I haven't seen a leap in logic that drastic since I was last on the Overwatch forums. Buying Credits and Endo is not progression. You need to invest those into things in order to create the tools with which you can grind for progression. That is not the same as straight up buying progression. It is much more direct (and thus much more practical) to go Plat > Dirac > Intrinsic rather than Plat > Credits and Endo and mods > upgrade mods > do missions to get progression. That's false equivalence and you know it.

So you're right back to the "I invested that last 1% of effort after paying to skip the other 99%, so I totally earned it and it wasn't pay-to-win" argument that you said you weren't making?

7 minutes ago, HintOfMalice said:

Trading platinum gives free-to-players to access 100% of the games content. There are no hard paywalls (other than Tennogen, which is just cosmetic). A game with no pay walls cannot be pay-to-win.

Can you pay to win in it? Yes. Then it's pay-to-win. Seems a simple enough concept to grasp to me, I'm not sure why you're struggling.

7 minutes ago, HintOfMalice said:

"Projecting" implies that I am guilty of a particular thing and that I have an insecurity as a result of it, and that as a coping mechanism I am accusing you of that very thing. Accusing me of projecting in this case would be to, not only claim that you are not haphazardly throwing out "no u" arguments but that I am.

Find me one.

I did, I quoted it above the bit where I said "you're projecting again". Same goes for the reverse sarcasm and a bunch of others I didn't call out because I want this to be a discussion, not a flame war. Your intentions seem opposite, sadly.

Edited December 30, 2019 by SordidDreams

[HintOfMalice]

1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

I did, I quoted it above the bit where I said "you're projecting again"

Yes, all that did was accuse me of making a "no u" argument. You did not highlight it.

1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

Same goes for the reverse sarcasm

I was the one who initially made that comment, so that is not a "no u". Nor is it projection, if that's your point.

 

2 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

because I want this to be a discussion

You say that, but I find it difficult to believe given your tendancy to distract from the argument with classic buzzwords. I hate to mention the Overwatch forums again, but I spent a couple of years scrolling through them and I've learned to tell when someone is obstructing conversation, despite what they're saying.

Here is a classic example:

4 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

because I want this to be a discussion, not a flame war. Your intentions seem opposite, sadly.

You pretend to take an optimistic and constructive approach while accusing me of attempting to start a flame war when the very end of my last post was this:

 

11 minutes ago, HintOfMalice said:

Here's hoping that either the conversation ends, or your tact improves.

This exact statement is in support of that very idea; constructive conversation. I can see that the conversation is looking downhill, so I hope it ends or gets pulled back into line. You ignored this and then try to villify me - obstructing the discussion you claim that you want.

 

If you do genuinely want a discussion, then I'm sorry, but you've shot yourself in the foot with your poor demeanor. However, I can't imagine you're going to complain that much.

[SordidDreams]

Just now, HintOfMalice said:

*snip*

Thank you for confirming your intentions with this post in which you ignored literally every single on-topic point I made. It's been a pleasure, have a nice day.

[HintOfMalice]

1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

which you ignored literally every single on-topic point I made

Yes, I did specifically say that I wasn't going to be continuing the discussion, so why on earth would I continuing referencing things from the discussion?. You don't get a diplomma for cracking that case.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

I think Intrinsics should also be obtained from ship kills, not just individual enemy kills: as a Gunner, the only time I get kills is onboard crewships and objectives, occasionally boarders too. I can take down 40+ fighters from the turrets, but all I get for that is affinity, which goes to my regular weapons. I've done missions where I've had to keep on the guns and occasionally repair, and if I don't get to kill any boarders, I get no Intrinsics. none whatsoever.

make Intrinsic points earned from ship kills and repairs as well as on-foot kills, then nobody will really need a booster that badly.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

Ok @SordidDreams, please name for me one non-cosmetic item in this game that can only be gained with money.

Because the only way for a co-op game to be truly pay-2-win is if paying gets you something that cannot be obtained, or something that cannot be reasonably obtained (i.e. you could grind for it, but you would need 1000 items that have a 0.01% drop chance from an hour-long dungeon crawl), without paying.

As far as I know, everything in this game, aside from platinum itself, that could be obtained with money at the current time (no dragging founder's gear into this) can be obtained through gameplay. The only exception I can think of would be a riven with extremely specific stats, like 'acrid hexa-mentanok with exactly +99.3, +121.7, +2.3, and -74.5'. This, of course, is nigh impossible to get through normal gameplay, but is also something only one player can obtain with plat; however, a comparable item could be obtained through gameplay.

In a co-op game, this is the only true form of pay-2-win, because otherwise everyone can get to the same point eventually. Some might get there faster than others, but if one player spends time on the game and another player spends some time at a job and then spends some time and some money on the game, the end result is the same. This is not true in PvP games, because in many of those games, he who gets the best stuff first wins. In Warframe, getting a frame/mod/arcane/whatever before someone else does not give you an advantage against other players because you aren't against other players. And since the game is co-op, most of the time an improvement for you is an improvement for your team.

Now, why would using dirac to gain intrinsics be a bad thing? It's not because it is pay-2-win, despite what other people have said in this thread. It's because it is allowing a player to use money to skip a mechanic in its entirety. One could spend a few thousand to completely skip all of the Intrinsics grind. Not only that, but all of the plat spent on that goes straight back to DE. It's not like buying mods off of players, where you buy the plat, but the plat is still out there, being traded around. DE only truly makes money off of plat once that plat is spent in the Market (or the Foundry, or Drydock, or any other place that isn't a player-to-player trade). Until then, every point of plat someone buys, and then trades with, is a point of plat the receiver didn't have to buy. Thus, it is money from one player, but a credit to another player. Admittedly, the fact that all of this is digital currency and digital goods makes it difficult to use standard accounting, but that's the basic idea. Giving players an incentive to spend money, to skip a bad system, that was made bad for that reason, and selling it in a way that only enriches the company, is generally considered an evil business practice. As it is more simply put: If you make a problem, and then sell the solution, you are being evil.

Intrinsics farming, as DE intended it, is bad. It is slow, unrewarding, and has way to high of costs compared to the benefits. Being able to directly or indirectly spend platinum to directly skip it, without any interaction with the system, would be unfair to players.

Now, why do boosters not fall under this category? Because of the previous two assertions: one, they can be earned in-game. You can use Ducats to get them when Baro brings them, you can get them through Sorties, and you can get them from daily login rewards. Two, they do not allow you to skip bad systems. They may alleviate the bad systems, but they do not skip them. These two factors combine to form the difference between boosters and directly purchasing what the boosters help you get.

[SordidDreams]

18 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

the only way for a co-op game to be truly pay-2-win is if paying gets you something that cannot be obtained, or something that cannot be reasonably obtained (i.e. you could grind for it, but you would need 1000 items that have a 0.01% drop chance from an hour-long dungeon crawl), without paying

That's a popular misconception. The fact that what is or isn't reasonable is entirely subjective makes it useless as a definition. As I said before, the real, objective pay-to-win litmus test is simple: Can you pay to win? Yes? Then it's pay to win. Simple as that.

Edited December 31, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Test-995]

Fine fine, i can safely say warframe is a pay to advantage game or pay to skip right? idk what difference is but yeah seems like it's something supposed to be big.

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

No. Railjack has only been out for about a month, and people are already starting to max out Intrinsics. It's just a matter of time before everybody else does, too. 

[(PSN)Silverback73]

14 hours ago, Goodwill said:

Oh don't worry, DE will bring out the Hemanox turret that requires 6 million Dirac to craft.

Such are the intrinsic demands of “Johnny Meta.” 😏

[WindigoTG]

17 hours ago, Joe_Barbarian said:

 

Using a resource that is obtained through premium currency (platinum) to essentially level you up = Pay to win. 

Pay to win is buying something unobtainable through other means and giving you an unfair advantage, again, unobtainable through other means.

All you "win" by leveling up through buying resources is a few hours of you life you can spend on doing other things.

[Joe_Barbarian]

5 minutes ago, WindigoTG said:

Pay to win is buying something unobtainable through other means and giving you an unfair advantage, again, unobtainable through other means.

All you "win" by leveling up through buying resources is a few hours of you life you can spend on doing other things.

Pay to Win isn't just defined by: buying something unobtainable through other means and giving you an unfair advantage.

You'll be artificially increasing your Railjack capabilities without any experience using them. You'll be completely negating any need to spend time in Proxima space. You'll be 10/10/10/10 with no practical experience with that kind of experience you'll be expected to behave and conduct yourself as a very experienced player but if you bought that then you are as useless as someone who's never even heard of the word railjack.

Now before you quote me again, at least spend more than 30 seconds thinking your answer through instead of trying to jump on the band wagon with a flawed definition.

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, 8faiNt said:

You are missing the whole topic's matter so go back to reading again

That is one way of saying you wanna dodge the question.

If you think drones are P2W then everything else you can buy to skip here is P2W according to you. You cant really be ok with normal weapons and frames and at the same time be against repair drones and see them as P2W. Because that would make zero sense.

But this isnt the first time I've seen you not make sense.

[8faiNt]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

But this isnt the first time I've seen you not make sense.

considering this is coming from you Im not going to even take you serious bye, stalky

also the only reason I said that is because you said what drones are capable of doing I dont even care about rest of your point. so you misunderstood and went for kicking the dead horse over and over again. but if you had read the topic you would ve known my point but yeah your stalky mission came first than the topic ofc get a life.

Edited December 31, 2019 by 8faiNt