Why are Grineer Crewships so much stronger than the Railjack?

[GPrime96]

20 hours ago, Diangelius said:

You choose to solo Empyrean and you must accept the difficulties (at least for now until DE change something). You are trying to multitask, which in Empyrean's design, you cannot, and are not supposed to.

During most of the time i’ve being playing Railjack, i play more of Solo with my Railjack than with a Squad. For Public, i only start those runs from Orbiter although my Railjack is tough enough to take a real beating while randoms is controlling it. Those runs, i go for no Forward Artillery or Slingshot, sometimes no Forging sometimes, and no Amesha once (this one would require specific placing your Railjack and warping back to your Railjack after you destroyed the Crewship’s Reactor). All those be successful runs at Veil Proxima but i rely on the last two a lot less than the no Forward Artillery/Slingshot playstyle, they were just for experimenting fun. To be fair, Solo wasn’t doable for me when i still had my Glassjack. 

Oh btw, me using the front Turrets on the Crewship and another Player uses FA can kill the Crewship without the Avionics for the Artillery.

Edited February 18, 2020 by GPrime96

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

17 hours ago, nslay said:

I mean, obviously the Grineer have better space technology than the Orokin or Tenno. Heck, they have even mastered making space glass! Not even the Corpus could get that right! Along with space glass, Grineer also have mastered materials that are impervious to any puncture, fire, ice or otherwise. Hence, no omni on their ships! Why need omni when damage never occurs? And you probably thought lack of omni was because of the fact that the Grineer are disposable...

DE has outdone the cliche Sci-Fi of advanced beings taking over the primitive ones. Now it's the primitive ones besting the advanced ones!

 

Well, being the grunt over engineers they are, it makes sense for them to focus on tougher tech instead of higher tech. They are, after all, really big on armor and bulletproof glass is a thing. Their ships are hella slow because of it though.

[Mr.Fluffins]

Well, Grineer crewships are basically big flying hunks of metal with guns - they are very slow, they don't have a variety of special systems like rams, cloacking, damage boosters, black hole launchers, and other tenno abilities (but they do have the healing bubble), they have much weaker fire power (compare your damage with MK3 guns VS fighters to a crewship damage VS fighters in Veil), no ordnance and no artillery weapons. Moreover, their surviveability is actually lower, if you count the revolite that can save you from any fatal damage multiple times, while the crewships goes down for good once its reactor is damaged with no option for repair.

Crewships are essentially heavy support vehicles that don't go down as easy, but get destroyed if focused by specialized means. And in the end, there is a reason why one Railjack manned by one person can take out 6 crewships and 90 fighters without too much trouble.

[32768]

22 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

If you hit them in them from directly behind it's a 1 shot even with no avionics. 

I tested this theory and it doesn't work. I was using void cloak to get into position and maxed forward artillery mod, still takes 2 shots on Saturn. This is not the first time i hear this theory, this is why I tested it, my best guess is that it's referring to some bug. Sometimes I can oneshot crewships from the front too, the opposite of this bug is when UI shows that I crited ship for 300k, but ships health doesn't go down. They probably have some overflow or underflow in their code and sometimes it looks like oneshot, sometimes not.

Other suggestions for putting breaches and fires on crewships doesn't work too. Photor mk3 and pulsar mk3 do absolutely nothing to crewships on Saturn. Maybe cryophon would do something, but I got tired of this at that point and didn't check, also I don't remember it doing anything to crewships before. In my personal experience best working gun against crewships is carcinox, takes couple of years to soften a crewships though.

Edited February 18, 2020 by 32768

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

No offense op, but this is all nonsense. Railjacks, with all their avionics, make everything else look like a joke. 

• Railjacks can move very, very fast.
• They have a variety of godly abilities and powers like void hole, particle ram, and void cloak.
• Tenno crew.
• Forge.
• slingshot whose payload cannot be shot down before arrival.
• Can be modded to support fighter craft (archwing).
• No easy-boom reactor like crewships.
• Onboard cephalon.
• Piloted by traumatized children.
• Forward artillery can one-shot crewships where as they cannot one-shot railjacks. Not even shipkiller platforms or galleons can oneshot railjacks. 

Should I stop now or do you want me to keep going?

[JackHargreav]

They might be tankier but they are not really stronger.

They are slow, don't deal much damage to our Railjack and have a very limited range and they don't have any of our abilities either. 

[(XBOX)Ancient Mutt]

Hang on a sec... are you confusing T5 artillery with Ordnance? Ordnance is useless and expensive, in my experience anyway (worse when A******s spawn in on public sessions and fire it all off at nothing in particular!) - Tier 5 artillery is used to one-shot a crew ship though. 

Also, a railjack is much more deadly and efficient with a trained crew working together. 

I've noticed a lot of people complaining about the game being hard and/or boring when they're trying to solo everything. I get that being social is hard for a lot of people, but still...

Edited February 18, 2020 by (XB1)Primus Patronum

[Diangelius]

9 hours ago, Aesthier said:

 

First off you definitely can multitask Empyrean and secondly if you were not supposed to be able to then they would have programmed it in a way you couldn't.

You can do all of them but not 2 tasks at the same time like you play other game modes. You have to temporarily stop this task to do another one.

And about the program intention, I need to remind you that Empyrean is not yet completed. It still lacks lots of content to be sure that, this mode is solo-able. But the fact that you cannot currently do all tasks at once could prove 90% that this mode was not intended to play solo. If DE really intended to give us solo ability in Empyrean, they should have added AI warframes to fill in the blank, and those AIs would do all necessary tasks within the Railjack, just like Index, rather than removing Solo option, which is pretty bullshjt.

My Railjack is strong enough to lay waste all Veil nodes before any 2nd player could get in my ship. But I did that like 10 times and I get bored of using a co-op tool to solo. I could do the solo, but I felt it (not morally) wrong...

[Mr.Fluffins]

4 hours ago, 32768 said:

I tested this theory and it doesn't work.

But this is not a theory, this is reality. Artillery with NO damage avionics one-shots veil crewships if you hit them in the engine, at least on PC. Maybe you just missed.

[Aesthier]

46 minutes ago, Diangelius said:

You can do all of them but not 2 tasks at the same time like you play other game modes. You have to temporarily stop this task to do another one.

And about the program intention, I need to remind you that Empyrean is not yet completed. It still lacks lots of content to be sure that, this mode is solo-able. But the fact that you cannot currently do all tasks at once could prove 90% that this mode was not intended to play solo. If DE really intended to give us solo ability in Empyrean, they should have added AI warframes to fill in the blank, and those AIs would do all necessary tasks within the Railjack, just like Index, rather than removing Solo option, which is pretty bullshjt.

My Railjack is strong enough to lay waste all Veil nodes before any 2nd player could get in my ship. But I did that like 10 times and I get bored of using a co-op tool to solo. I could do the solo, but I felt it (not morally) wrong...

Before I get into a misunderstanding can you expand upon some of what you have stated above?

Multitasking from my understanding is quickly temporarily stopping one task to do another and then back.

When you say Empyrean was not intended to be soloed are you talking about the modes we currently have or the new stuff that has yet to be released?

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Aesthier

[DoomFruit]

8 hours ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

can a crewship summon a black hole?

Not unless you install that particular mod on it.

8 hours ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

can it instantly repair itself from damage and fires in a instant with a press of a button?

Grineer ships don't even get fires or hull breaches.

8 hours ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

can it 360 degree maneuver at high speed? does it have a archwing slingshot?

Those, it can't do. 2 points to the railjack here (although nobody's tried installing some decent Vidar engines on to a crewship).

8 hours ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

can it void jump like the railjack?

They warp in out of nowhere as reinforcements, so I'd say yes. They can also follow you back to the dojo - so they are definitely FTL capable. In fact, it's likely that their atmospheric dropships can also warp - you see them appear in a flash of light on the Plains of Eidolon.

8 hours ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

is it cephalon compatible?

Is that even a good thing?

8 hours ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

also btw the houses and wreckage cannot be applied to crewships due to there design from orokin tech not grineer disposable scrap 

Yet we can still install mods on grineer disposable crap like the Hind or Grakata.

[SpiritTeA]

Crewship turns into pussy on 2k+ distance. While most of our weapons can still fight in twice (or even more) longer distance. I’m saying it as owner of almost top builded RailJack and I see no problems with it. However if your RailJack is is far from top build you’re surely will face a lot of problems. But you not using potato and forma-less warframes and weapons on arbitrations don’t you?

P.S. Yes missiles from pilot seat on crewships can fire up to 8k distance. But pilots don’t using missiles so it’s not worth to keeping it in mind

P.P.S. Crewship side and down turrets can shoot only in one direction. When RJ behind crewship, crewship is harmless

Edited February 18, 2020 by SpiritTeA

[Mr.Fluffins]

17 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

et we can still install mods on grineer disposable crap like the Hind or Grakata.

No, we dont. We make our own replicas of their weapons that are orokin-reactor and forma compatible and can take our mods. It's the same reason we don't pick up their weapons during missions - they are complete garbage compared to ours and are not compatible with our technology (mods, reactors, formas).

[BornWithTeeth]

7 hours ago, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

Except high level grineer are high level because they're more experienced and making better use of the mods that they carry. It has been explicitly stated in the lore multiple times that mods are used outside of tenno.

 

Lore wise, even as it applies to the gameplay, high level hinds are the same as low level hinds, just modded better.

 

The railjack is also clunky and slow as hell outside of those same mods that have already, lore wise, said to be applicable to other weapons and parts like shield generators and engines that could easily be hacked onto those crewships.

Ok, then you have your answer! Crewships do indeed use avionics and components. They are tankier than Railjacks because of their build and their mods...so if you replace that tanky as hell build of theirs with the balanced loadout that makes Railjacks faster and more offensive, then crewships will stop being so tanky. 
 

Question answered: crewships are tougher than Railjacks because they use their entire avionics setup to be tough as hell, with precious little left over for speed and damage. Very simple.

 

 

Ok, I’m being facetious, but the core of your argument here hinges on interpreting the exact balance of lore vs gameplay to allow you to argue that crewships are just better. It seems like the argument that Grineer tech is inherently the way it is, or that Grineer tech is modular like Tenno gear, whichever supports the OP position at the time.

[Diangelius]

16 minutes ago, Aesthier said:

Before I get into a misunderstanding can you expand upon some of what you have stated above?

Multitasking from my understanding is quickly temporarily stopping one task to do another and then back.

When you say Empyrean was not intended to be soloed are you talking about the modes we currently have or the new stuff that has yet to be released?

 

Forget the "multitasking" then. What I meant from the beginning, is the inability of not doing 2 tasks at once and that's it. If you focus on repairing the ship, you cannot pilot it out of dangerous zone and rekt some fighters on the way, etc.

Empyrean, judging from the design and the fact above, is not supposed to do solo, and this could be the intended of future Empyrean content too. I'm literally telling you this twice.

I was just explaining to OP about the difficulties of doing Railjack things alone while with knowledgeable teammates, the run will be much easier to go through.

[DoomFruit]

7 minutes ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

No, we dont. We make our own replicas of their weapons that are orokin-reactor and forma compatible and can take our mods. It's the same reason we don't pick up their weapons during missions - they are complete garbage compared to ours and are not compatible with our technology (mods, reactors, formas).

Either that or it's because their weapons turn to dust a few seconds after they die.

EDIT: you'd also think that we wouldn't make something so... mediocre, like a Hind or Kraken.

Edited February 18, 2020 by DoomFruit

[Aldain]

4 minutes ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

It's the same reason we don't pick up their weapons during missions - they are complete garbage compared to ours and are not compatible with our technology (mods, reactors, formas).

...Then why do level 300+ enemies using those same weapons one-shot anything that doesn't have insane eHP?

Because if I could pick up a level 300 Bombard's weapon I'm pretty sure it would be able to do better work than most crafted explosive weapons.

I'd honestly believe the Metal Gear Solid 4 "Nanomachine Locks" excuse for why we can't pick up and use enemy weapons more than the same artillery that can tear us apart being useless in our hands.

[32768]

1 hour ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

But this is not a theory, this is reality. Artillery with NO damage avionics one-shots veil crewships if you hit them in the engine, at least on PC. Maybe you just missed.

I think you're hitting some bug. I'm on PC and obviously on latest patch. I tried this more than once and i didn't miss. If crewship health goes down then i didn't miss, right?

I can't be bothered with trying new great suggestions what spot crewship should be hit at to oneshot it, could you record a video or something? (And possibly post it to bugreport section?)

[Aesthier]

What I was actually hoping for is that you would define what you mean when you say that "you cannot" are/or "not supposed to" do something.

On 2020-02-17 at 3:38 AM, Diangelius said:

You choose to solo Empyrean and you must accept the difficulties (at least for now until DE change something). You are trying to multitask, which in Empyrean's design, you cannot, and are not supposed to.

Again multitasking is simply swamping quickly between tasks and I think I understand what you were trying to get at as swapping between piloting and repairing etc...(which you can do) isn't really as efficient as it is in other areas of Warframe such as swapping from casting an ability or shooting a gun to hacking a console and then back again.

 

As far as the not supposed to do again I hope I am not misinterpreting this but you didn't really give any more depth to that when I asked and instead just

2 hours ago, Diangelius said:

Empyrean, judging from the design and the fact above, is not supposed to do solo, and this could be the intended of future Empyrean content too. I'm literally telling you this twice.

 

From my interpretation you are saying not supposed to as if it is wrong to do so.

3 hours ago, Diangelius said:

And about the program intention, I need to remind you that Empyrean is not yet completed. It still lacks lots of content to be sure that, this mode is solo-able.

You are correct that there is more content yet to be released and that from that information DE has provided us thus far that new content to be released at a future date looks like it might be more co-op dependent. But I am not debating future content that has yet to be released I was debating your statements concerning current content.

However the future content that hasn't been released has no effect on our current content "until" that new content is released. Thus the Empyrean content we are currently playing has been proven to be solo-able.

You even state this yourself:

3 hours ago, Diangelius said:

My Railjack is strong enough to lay waste all Veil nodes before any 2nd player could get in my ship. But I did that like 10 times and I get bored of using a co-op tool to solo. I could do the solo, but I felt it (not morally) wrong...

 

As far as inefficient multitasking proving that something was not intended to be played solo:

3 hours ago, Diangelius said:

 But the fact that you cannot currently do all tasks at once could prove 90% that this mode was not intended to play solo.

I would agree that Co-op play is the primary focus as Steve even stated that in Devstream #134 (17:50-19:19)  where he talked about having to decide "for now" between co-op or solo content for the first section of the Empyrean release and deciding to focus on the co-op play for this section. However even though they are focusing on the co-op portion they are not locking solo players out. That combined with the portion (20:08-20:34) where he reiterates that "you can play this solo you're not locked out" even though the design is about taking on roles and that co-op is the optimal experience.

So while you may believe this mode is not intended to play solo DE has designed it to support solo players as well as those co-op players who were the primary focus.

 

3 hours ago, Diangelius said:

 If DE really intended to give us solo ability in Empyrean, they should have added AI warframes to fill in the blank, and those AIs would do all necessary tasks within the Railjack, just like Index, rather than removing Solo option, which is pretty bullshjt.

First off DE HAS NOT REMOVED THE SOLO OPTION. They have only focused on the co-op experience during this portion of the release.

As far as DE's intent I refer you to the following:

Devstream #134 (28:48-29:04) Command Intrinsic geared towards solo players.

Devstream 134 overview

"A fifth, Command, will come when we introduce the ability to manage an NPC crew. These NPCs would be composed of Syndicates and Liches, which will be helpful for Solo players. Don’t worry, we will add a system that allows you to respec your intrinsics in the future so don’t hold off on investing your points if you’re waiting for the 5th Intrinsic."

On 2019-12-12 at 7:34 PM, [DE]Megan said:

COMMAND* 2020.
In an upcoming Empyrean expansion the Command Intrinsics will be available to increase the efficiency of your on-board Railjack crew. 

*When the COMMAND Intrinsic launches in 2020, we will also offer a chance to rebalance your Intrinsic skills, thus refunding you all your spent Intrinsics to edit your skills however you please with the addition of COMMAND. 

 

Now I not believe that the Command Intrinsic will have the "AIs... do all necessary tasks within the Railjack" however again the point my points are:

1. Railjack missions are currently soloable

2. Even though DE has focused more on the co-op experience within the current portion of Empyrean they do support solo play-styles.

3. DE has NOT removed any solo functions from Railjack as far as our current release.

So that is why I do not agree to a portion of your statements.

However I do completely agree with your previous statement, quoted below, and think it was perfectly spot on in its summation:

On 2020-02-17 at 3:38 AM, Diangelius said:

You choose to solo Empyrean and you must accept the difficulties (at least for now until DE change something).

 

Again I cannot say if DE will lock solo players out of some of the Empyrean content with future releases however I do believe, with some measure of confidence, that, while this content may have a greater focus on roles from a co-op or multiplayer experience, DE does, and will continue to, take the solo player experience into consideration.

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Aesthier

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

7 hours ago, 32768 said:

I tested this theory and it doesn't work. I was using void cloak to get into position and maxed forward artillery mod, still takes 2 shots on Saturn. This is not the first time i hear this theory, this is why I tested it, my best guess is that it's referring to some bug. Sometimes I can oneshot crewships from the front too, the opposite of this bug is when UI shows that I crited ship for 300k, but ships health doesn't go down. They probably have some overflow or underflow in their code and sometimes it looks like oneshot, sometimes not.

Other suggestions for putting breaches and fires on crewships doesn't work too. Photor mk3 and pulsar mk3 do absolutely nothing to crewships on Saturn. Maybe cryophon would do something, but I got tired of this at that point and didn't check, also I don't remember it doing anything to crewships before. In my personal experience best working gun against crewships is carcinox, takes couple of years to soften a crewships though.

Then you're encountering bugs or doing something wrong. 

 

I've noticed the crewship healing bubbles can block your artillery but a straight up clean shot into the back of a crewship engine will be a 1 shot. This is how I deal with crewships in the veil every time I go. It isnt a "theory" I can post a video if I have to. 

[Fallen77]

One railjack easilly kills 90 fichiers and 6 crewships => why are crewships so much stronger than railjack ?

You wot mate ?

[BornWithTeeth]

33 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Then you're encountering bugs or doing something wrong. 

 

I've noticed the crewship healing bubbles can block your artillery but a straight up clean shot into the back of a crewship engine will be a 1 shot. This is how I deal with crewships in the veil every time I go. It isnt a "theory" I can post a video if I have to. 

Is this with putting some Status effects on the target first, though? Using Carcinnox and Apocs to put some Plasma and Particle procs on the bugger will basically allow you to double dip yer damage with the big gun when you fire it. I like the way it works, to be honest.

[32768]

2 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Then you're encountering bugs or doing something wrong. 

I've noticed the crewship healing bubbles can block your artillery but a straight up clean shot into the back of a crewship engine will be a 1 shot. This is how I deal with crewships in the veil every time I go. It isnt a "theory" I can post a video if I have to. 

Does it work reliably for you or does it work sometimes? I honestly think you are seeing some bug, but it's so convoluted and broken that i don't know anymore what is bug and what is feature.

By the way i think they fixed healing bubbles blocking artillery shots, but don't quote me on that.

Edited February 18, 2020 by 32768

[Mr.Fluffins]

45 minutes ago, 32768 said:

By the way i think they fixed healing bubbles blocking artillery shots, but don't quote me on that.

Nope, they didnt. I wasted a shot on a bubble alright.

And regarding artillery, look, I really dont want to waste time on recording and uploading videos, but you have to hit them in the glowy part of the engines - if you do, it's a one-shot. I play Railjack solo, and not once (after the recent patch when this was changed) did I manage to not one-shot a crewship after a direct engine hit. Maybe it's latency on your part? It seems like you are hitting it in the engine, but due to high ping you actually dont?

5 hours ago, Aldain said:

Because if I could pick up a level 300 Bombard's weapon I'm pretty sure it would be able to do better work than most crafted explosive weapons.

Infinite scaling is done for gameplay reasons, not lore reasons, and even balance wise, anything past 120 is basically out of bounds area. Moreover, that same lvl 300 Bombard weapon is going to be very weak against other lvl 300 enemies. You forget that the balance in the game is as follows: players deal tons of damage but have less hp, enemies have tons of hp but deal lesst damage (same reason why self-damage is such a big issue). So yeah, our weapons are better.

5 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

you'd also think that we wouldn't make something so... mediocre, like a Hind or Kraken.

I mean, some people do choose these weapons out of many others and play with them and clear content... If a tenno likes a particular weapon design and gets the job done, why not? Even lore wise Tenno were kind of fashion victims and liked fancy things, if someone likes krake or hind design... why not?

[32768]

2 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Is this with putting some Status effects on the target first, though? Using Carcinnox and Apocs to put some Plasma and Particle procs on the bugger will basically allow you to double dip yer damage with the big gun when you fire it. I like the way it works, to be honest.

This actually works on Saturn, maxed artillery mod + Apoc MK3 + follow up Tunguska shot kills crewship, good stuff, doesn't work in Veil though. But maybe you have better guns or better mods than me.

 

11 minutes ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

Nope, they didnt. I wasted a shot on a bubble alright.

I thought i saw it mentioned in some patch notes, apparently i'm wrong.

8 minutes ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

And regarding artillery, look, I really dont want to waste time on recording and uploading videos, but you have to hit them in the glowy part of the engines - if you do, it's a one-shot. I play Railjack solo, and not once (after the recent patch when this was changed) did I manage to not one-shot a crewship after a direct engine hit. Maybe it's latency on your part? It seems like you are hitting it in the engine, but due to high ping you actually dont?

I host Railjack, zero ping. Alright, i'll give it another try when i have a chance, thanks for the tip.