Arcane changes show little thought from DE

[m0b1us1]

Lets dissect all the issues that DE completely missed when they talked about changing arcanes.

DE wants weaker arcanes to be used more often. Of all the points DE made during the devstream, this is the most valid. Many arcanes are simply never used in comparison to others. However DE seems to be completely misunderstanding why that is. Let's compare arcane grace to warmth. The prior has a chance to heal you when you take damage over the course of a few seconds, the latter gives you a chance to ignore cold procs. Let's even assume warmth grants 100% resist for this discussion. If I had a giant list of all missions possibly available in WF, what missions would give you a chance to experience a cold proc. Typically this would only be corpus missions, and most cold procs in standard corpus missions comes from breaking a certain type of barrel. Outside of that, you have exploiter and a small number of enemies in the orb vallis that can proc cold damage. Even then, these cold procs are nothing that can "change the tide" of battle. So you have an extremely niche use arcane because the number of times where it would actually be useful are minuscule at absolute best. Now lets look at arcane grace. You have a chance to heal over time upon taking damage. Again, let's assume we consider every single possible mission in WF, how many missions are there where you can take damage? ALL OF THEM. The only times where grace is useless is when you are not going to be hit at all (ironskin/stealth/limbo void) or you are trying to go so far into a time mission that the enemy can easily out damage your healing. The number of places where grace is not useful is incredibly small and highly specific. Then there are arcanes like nullifier. Before eidolons, this was a "bottom tier" arcane for the exact same reasons as I had already listed. However with the introduction of eidolons, magnetic procs became a far more consistent threat. So a niche arcane found itself becoming one of the more sought and used arcanes. This didn't change because nullifier was buffed, it changed because a need for resisting magnetic procs came into the game. 0 buffs or nerfs caused this.

I could go on and on explaining how DE has completely failed to recognize that the "worst" arcanes are those that are so oddly specific that unless you actively try to recreate those exact conditions, would never be used.

Now let's talk about the other claims of DE that make absolutely zero sense.

"Oh we didn't mean for them to stack, they were meant to be more of changing the tide of battle". Ahh look, a good ole DE special of "Hey, this thing has been in the game for years unchanged but its actually not been working how we meant it" excuse. Like mentioned, arcanes have been in the game FOR YEARS, and just now DE decides that they weren't meant to be used like this. This is 100% a lie, and every time they try to use this "doesn't work right" excuse for changing something that has been around for years, its them using the same lie.

"Oh we aren't trying to increase the grind", no, you 100% absolutely are trying to increase the grind. More accurately, you are trying to nerf and change arcanes to try to keep people playing. I got all my arcane graces from NMLOR. I never once went to eidolons to try to farm for grace because I already had them. Trials were removed to give eidolons a reason to kill. I was 100% against this move as it took a hard to obtain endgame item and made it easily and readily available for everyone to farm of any skill level. Now DE is feeling the negative side effect of that poorly thought out decision. Once everyone got their arcanes, why would we ever go back to eidolons? So they want to make a new event, but people are simply not playing due to horrid rewards? They have to take something that people don't have millions of, but still have a strong impact on the game, and make a need for it again. So they take arcanes, use the DE patent excuse of "its not working right", and push out a change that will require people to farm more for them.

 

I would love if anyone from DE could put forth any strong (hek I would take even valid) argument for the changes to arcanes. If they weren't meant to stack, then they could easily just say "they don't stack". However, with the changes they proposed and the excuses they made up show us that DE truly has put little to no thought into these changes. Every single nerf DE has put out recently has seemed to be purely to increase the grind and I am getting completely sick of DE making up excuses to justify themselves.

[ShadowKnightjjg]

Honestly yea you are 100% right and they will do this again and again. The new event will honestly be a way to fill out collection of arcanes for free instead of doing terrible eidolon hunts, or paying for it from other players. Lets just watch as they keep doing this till the game goes into the ground.

[kevoisvevo]

maybe they are doing all these nerfs because of the s curve scaling on enemies now

[Libpea]

23 minutes ago, ShadowKnightjjg said:

Honestly yea you are 100% right and they will do this again and again. The new event will honestly be a way to fill out collection of arcanes for free instead of doing terrible eidolon hunts, or paying for it from other players. Lets just watch as they keep doing this till the game goes into the ground.

The game wont go to the ground, because just like anything else, old people leave, new players come and know nothing of the past. And third kind of players are those who are old and couldnt leave and stay on forum to watch the game grow either up or down. I think i have become that third kind of player.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Libpea

[ShadowKnightjjg]

4 minutes ago, Libpea said:

The game wont go to the ground, because just like anything else, old people leave, new players come and know nothing of the past. And third kind of players are those who are old and couldnt leave and stay on forum to watch the game grow either up or down. I think i have become that third kind of player.

Oh it will cuz every game does I'm not saying it will be soon or that the game is dying but every game the community eventually fades. Which yea I'm the third as well sadly.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

1 hour ago, m0b1us1 said:

Lets dissect all the issues that DE completely missed when they talked about changing arcanes.

DE wants weaker arcanes to be used more often. Of all the points DE made during the devstream, this is the most valid. Many arcanes are simply never used in comparison to others. However DE seems to be completely misunderstanding why that is. Let's compare arcane grace to warmth. The prior has a chance to heal you when you take damage over the course of a few seconds, the latter gives you a chance to ignore cold procs. Let's even assume warmth grants 100% resist for this discussion. If I had a giant list of all missions possibly available in WF, what missions would give you a chance to experience a cold proc. Typically this would only be corpus missions, and most cold procs in standard corpus missions comes from breaking a certain type of barrel. Outside of that, you have exploiter and a small number of enemies in the orb vallis that can proc cold damage. Even then, these cold procs are nothing that can "change the tide" of battle. So you have an extremely niche use arcane because the number of times where it would actually be useful are minuscule at absolute best. Now lets look at arcane grace. You have a chance to heal over time upon taking damage. Again, let's assume we consider every single possible mission in WF, how many missions are there where you can take damage? ALL OF THEM. The only times where grace is useless is when you are not going to be hit at all (ironskin/stealth/limbo void) or you are trying to go so far into a time mission that the enemy can easily out damage your healing. The number of places where grace is not useful is incredibly small and highly specific. Then there are arcanes like nullifier. Before eidolons, this was a "bottom tier" arcane for the exact same reasons as I had already listed. However with the introduction of eidolons, magnetic procs became a far more consistent threat. So a niche arcane found itself becoming one of the more sought and used arcanes. This didn't change because nullifier was buffed, it changed because a need for resisting magnetic procs came into the game. 0 buffs or nerfs caused this.

I could go on and on explaining how DE has completely failed to recognize that the "worst" arcanes are those that are so oddly specific that unless you actively try to recreate those exact conditions, would never be used.

Now let's talk about the other claims of DE that make absolutely zero sense.

"Oh we didn't mean for them to stack, they were meant to be more of changing the tide of battle". Ahh look, a good ole DE special of "Hey, this thing has been in the game for years unchanged but its actually not been working how we meant it" excuse. Like mentioned, arcanes have been in the game FOR YEARS, and just now DE decides that they weren't meant to be used like this. This is 100% a lie, and every time they try to use this "doesn't work right" excuse for changing something that has been around for years, its them using the same lie.

"Oh we aren't trying to increase the grind", no, you 100% absolutely are trying to increase the grind. More accurately, you are trying to nerf and change arcanes to try to keep people playing. I got all my arcane graces from NMLOR. I never once went to eidolons to try to farm for grace because I already had them. Trials were removed to give eidolons a reason to kill. I was 100% against this move as it took a hard to obtain endgame item and made it easily and readily available for everyone to farm of any skill level. Now DE is feeling the negative side effect of that poorly thought out decision. Once everyone got their arcanes, why would we ever go back to eidolons? So they want to make a new event, but people are simply not playing due to horrid rewards? They have to take something that people don't have millions of, but still have a strong impact on the game, and make a need for it again. So they take arcanes, use the DE patent excuse of "its not working right", and push out a change that will require people to farm more for them.

 

I would love if anyone from DE could put forth any strong (hek I would take even valid) argument for the changes to arcanes. If they weren't meant to stack, then they could easily just say "they don't stack". However, with the changes they proposed and the excuses they made up show us that DE truly has put little to no thought into these changes. Every single nerf DE has put out recently has seemed to be purely to increase the grind and I am getting completely sick of DE making up excuses to justify themselves.

I am so completely sick of hearing "oh it wasnt meant to work this way" for something that has been in the game for YEARS. not days, not weeks, not months, YEARS. 

Arcanes not stacking? Okay. Fine. I dont think that's necessary because I dont think many people ever did that but okay. Fine.

Some arcanes getting nerfed? That's annoying but okay fine. I'll get over it.

 

What I absolutely cannot stand though is the fact that my "max rank" arcanes are going to suddenly not be max rank and I need to get what, 11 more arcane guardians to MOSTLY undue the nerf. Just to get it slightly worse than it is now? Hey why not just reset all my maxed primed mods to rank 5 while we're at it?

I am H I G H L Y skeptical of them telling us "theres a new arcane system we arent just doing this to artificially create grind dont worry".

 

I have ZERO trust in that statement especially as a console player after what we had to go through with railjack. 

 

They also dont seem to get that a lot of the arcanes are just straight up bad buffs to the point that their percentages dont matter. Resisting a freaking gas proc will never ever be as good as extra armor, health regen, or extra energy. If you want people to use more than maybe 4-5 arcanes on a regular basis either add more or do something about the ones that are just. Plain. Bad. 

[T.Hoagie]

I've picked up quite a few Arcanes through my Eidolon hunting. And most of them are absolutely worthless to me, even if they buff them I doubt I will ever use them cause they are too situational to really be useful.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

DE way of thinking is that arcane comes in tiers. In that the player will get the lower tier version then work their way up to the higher tier. In practice it never worked that way. People can mass farm the higher tier arcane and those with plat (or real life money) can just get them without trying.
Sure there's arcane with very little use if any at all. Then there's the one size fits all arcane like grace or energize. If there's a faster, easier, simplier way to equip arcane, yeah sure I'll switch for the situation at hand... maybe.

[SpiritTeA]

I’ll tell you story about one mobile game which I liked very much. It called Might and Magic Elemental Guardians, game is about 3 years online, and developers removed one interesting feature only at November 2019. First of all have to say that it turn-based game. That thing allowed infinity turns of your creatures happening in a row, so enemy just would never had a chance to take a turn. It was obviously that it was not intended this way , but developers didn’t said anything and only at summer of 2019 they finally said that it was broken and it wasn’t intended this way. And it took them 2 years out of 3 to say it.
So it happens that developers understand that it looks broken when 90-99% using the same tactic/build. Maybe they thought that it won’t be a thing and it not worth fixing, but when they saw that everyone is going around with double grace, guardian, energize etc they didn’t like it.

You can blame DE for nerfing your precious high-skilled end-game arcanes, but will it change it? Doubtfully. I have never used more than r1 Arcane Strike which I got during raids and I haven’t struggled with any content at all. I avoiding boring and stupid grind (Like Eidolons) so I don’t care about arcanes. If everyone one would take things much easier there won’t be problems at all. And anyway if you super skilled player that ready for endgame you always can buy arcanes from players for $ and save your time. People like to pay for overall useless things, so why you complaining? It’s also new grind! Yay!

[m0b1us1]

1 hour ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I am so completely sick of hearing "oh it wasnt meant to work this way" for something that has been in the game for YEARS. not days, not weeks, not months, YEARS. 

Arcanes not stacking? Okay. Fine. I dont think that's necessary because I dont think many people ever did that but okay. Fine.

Some arcanes getting nerfed? That's annoying but okay fine. I'll get over it.

 

What I absolutely cannot stand though is the fact that my "max rank" arcanes are going to suddenly not be max rank and I need to get what, 11 more arcane guardians to MOSTLY undue the nerf. Just to get it slightly worse than it is now? Hey why not just reset all my maxed primed mods to rank 5 while we're at it?

I am H I G H L Y skeptical of them telling us "theres a new arcane system we arent just doing this to artificially create grind dont worry".

 

I have ZERO trust in that statement especially as a console player after what we had to go through with railjack. 

 

They also dont seem to get that a lot of the arcanes are just straight up bad buffs to the point that their percentages dont matter. Resisting a freaking gas proc will never ever be as good as extra armor, health regen, or extra energy. If you want people to use more than maybe 4-5 arcanes on a regular basis either add more or do something about the ones that are just. Plain. Bad. 

Yep yep. Its like their go-to excuse for trying to justify stupid choices. Hey, here's chroma, who hasn't been touched since his release. Oh hey, eidolons came out and he's one shotting them! Better nerf vex armor to not even half of its former self in both damage and tankiness and claim that it was a bug! Oh hey, we never wanted itzal to be faster than the other archwings! Better nerf it!

DE has made up so many excuses for so many changes that I honestly can't trust a single word from them these days. I am absolutely floored that they think buffing these weak, way too specific arcanes, will make them any better. Yeah, let me go use my arcane warmth and get 1 actual use of it if I accidentally step on a cold patch during a sabotage mission. Yep! Totally worth it!

 

52 minutes ago, T.Hoagie said:

I've picked up quite a few Arcanes through my Eidolon hunting. And most of them are absolutely worthless to me, even if they buff them I doubt I will ever use them cause they are too situational to really be useful.

Exactly. Thats what DE doesn't understand. I have always said that DE doesn't play their own game. How many enemies can give cold, fire, or gas procs? Incredibly few, and even then there is only a CHANCE that they proc them. Meanwhile all enemies can damage you, so you will get far far more use of any arcane that procs on being damaged. When they removed raids and tried to force sanctuary onslaught down our throats as the "new end game", it was hilarious watching them struggle against level 30 enemies. DE actually thinks that the itzal should have been nerfed because it was being used more than other archwings. Even though that is 100% DE's fault that itzal became the most used archwing. When JV was still around, itzal was by far the least used archwing, only used by speed runners due to how squishy it is. It wasn't an issue then.

[(PSN)Shelneroth]

1 hour ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

What I absolutely cannot stand though is the fact that my "max rank" arcanes are going to suddenly not be max rank and I need to get what, 11 more arcane guardians to MOSTLY undue the nerf. Just to get it slightly worse than it is now? Hey why not just reset all my maxed primed mods to rank 5 while we're at it?

Where you getting this from. I got the impression current ranks wouldn't be changing. Ranks four and five will be more powerful than current max rank arcanes. So if you don't double up on one arcane you won't see any difference.

[Urlan]

34 minutes ago, (PS4)Shelneroth said:

Where you getting this from. I got the impression current ranks wouldn't be changing. Ranks four and five will be more powerful than current max rank arcanes. So if you don't double up on one arcane you won't see any difference.

Per the forum thread, if the listed changes are correct; many of the more passive arcanes like Guardian actually become worse as they are ranked up past our current max reducing activation chance and just going up in duration. I think many of those values need heavy look before that goes live or would have to agree that its a nerf overall from current arcane usages which I don't think is the overall intent.

[(PSN)Shelneroth]

2 minutes ago, Urlan said:

Per the forum thread, if the listed changes are correct; many of the more passive arcanes like Guardian actually become worse as they are ranked up past our current max reducing activation chance and just going up in duration. I think many of those values need heavy look before that goes live or would have to agree that its a nerf overall from current arcane usages which I don't think is the overall intent.

Thanks. 

[Urlan]

Just now, (PS4)Shelneroth said:

Thanks. 

No prob.

[Lion]

9 hours ago, ShadowKnightjjg said:

Oh it will cuz every game does I'm not saying it will be soon or that the game is dying but every game the community eventually fades. Which yea I'm the third as well sadly.

I mean, WoW/Runescape/Everquest (gag) are still going strong, if not actively trending at the moment. Hell even JRPG MMOs have staying power these days.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Lion

[Graavarg]

5 hours ago, m0b1us1 said:

Lets dissect all the issues that DE completely missed when they talked about changing arcanes.

...

I would love if anyone from DE could put forth any strong (hek I would take even valid) argument for the changes to arcanes.

Well, I don't agree with your conclusions, but this is mostly a result of the logical framework you are using. Let me explain, and as you said: "let's dissect".

DE has (especially lately) been very consistent in that they want to broaden the use of the huge content available in the game. From this it is fairly straightforward to conclude that the opposite is seen as a problem by the developer and owner of the game. The "opposite" being when some warframes, abilities, weapons, mods, builds OR arcanes are used much more than others.

It is also worth noting that there is no real need for META- or "god"-builds in the game, as you can handle absolutely all normal content in the game without them. There is also no need for META-/"god"-builds for "experiencing the power fantasy", the way the game plays you can do that just fine without getting into the ultimate stuff. All this is pretty important for the context, since the conclusion then is that being even "more powerful", or in extremis "most powerful", doesn't come from demands within the game but from the players themselves. It is a personal wish, need, interest, sense of fun, social standing (within the game), "completionistness", "effectivistness" or something that drives the META-/"god"-part of the game, not the game itself.

Part of the Warframe "playerbase" is extremely knowledgeable, smart, experienced, analytical and progressive, continuously probing the game and it's contents and functions for new, better and/or more efficient ways of "doing things". The goal could be described as the opposite to the devs stated intent, namely to find the most op, broken builds, combos and ways of playing the game. Since Warframe in part is a continually evolving sandbox game, there is quite a lot of room for this. Anything that is "broken" (as in too powerful, or more powerful than intended) is quickly found. The "findings" then get spread efficiently, and a huge part the playerbase just copies it from Youtube, Reddit and even the forum.

Boiling all this down you end up with the end result of specialist META- and "god-"stuff and -builds becoming widely used, which skews the usage of content, which it is against how the game is supposed to work according to the developers & "caretakers" of the Warframe.

Things are further complicated by more diffuse effects from in-game economy (the META- & "god"-concepts drives part of plat-based business), player motivation (as in wanting to acquire the stuff connected to having your own META-/"god"-build) as well as generating third-party content buffing interest the game. Or in other words, there is a risk of "hurting" the game by making everything more "flat", "same" and "non-special", by removing part of the "economy" and by reducing third-party activity.

Aboard so far? (It's just simple facts and logic).

The big question then is what to do in order to achieve the stated objective, which is a wider use of the contents in the game. Or put another way, diminish the use of the much too widely used parts. Preferably affecting the game positively in the process, though at least without affecting the game negatively.

This is where things gets mixed up, since making the game better (more interesting and fun for all players) might well include making a minority of players grumpy. And with "mixed up" I mean the viewpoint from which the upcoming changes are analyzed, which is the troika of "my viewpoint", "a player's viewpoint" and "the game's viewpoint" (and the last one could also be called "all the players' viewpoint").

I have no need to argue that the changes are not "nerfs" etc., they are and they are clearly meant to be (except the shotgun status calculations, which are just a long-awaited logical improvement to the game). I am also not surprised by all the salty tears in the forum, it has become par the course for a forum becoming more and more dominated by the "my viewpoint". A lot of posts claiming to be about the future of the game and about the effects on all player actually belong in this more ego-centered group, simply masquerading personal wants and feelings as a more general care of the game. What HAS surprised me is that so many player's (many quite experienced, based on the "join"-date & the number of posts) have chosen to view and analyze this from the game's perspective. What I am not surprised about is that these are generally in favour of the changes.

But back to the three most central questions:

1. Will the upcoming changes achieve the (quite clearly) stated goal of broadening the use of arcanes? Since the metric is the player usage statistics the answer is clearly "yes", due to the combined effects of removing the stacking, nerfing the META-arcanes and buffing and adding other arcanes.
2. Will the changes make Warframe better? Well, this question is impossible to answer, since the answer is completely and totally dependent on your viewpoint, what you like about Warframe and why you play. Any measured results will be available only in the future, which means that arguing for or against fills some other function than trying to reach a conclusive result.
3. Is DE trying to improve Warframe and make it a better game? This is probably the most screwed and the funniest question of all, since there are so many posts containing variations on how DE is trying to destroy the game, even some claiming coding is flawed (which is hugely funny). Let's just say that anyone with any common sense at all would answer "yes", and in addition lots of longtime players would answer "yes" simply from 7 years of experience.
4. Has DE put a lot of thought into the arcane changes? Which is sort of the ultimate question, straight from the header in this thread. Of course we can't know, only speculate. But I tend to disagree (more or less completely) with the OP. I think DE has put an immense amount of thought into this, over a long time and over huge changes in the game. I also think DE has come to the conclusion that these old problems stacking up over time have to fixed, for the sake of the game. I also think DE was apprehensive (to put it mildly) of player feedback, and I even believe that fear of a huge negative response has inhibited making these changes earlier, instead just letting things continue and adapting to the flaws in the system. I also think DE underestimated their playerbase, a lot of us gets it.

So, yes, my unkillable god-Inaros will be a bit weaker, so will my ever-shielded Hildryn and so on. But it is for a good cause, and despite getting "hit by the nerfs" I sincerely believe this is for a better Warframe. My belief in DE's commitment to Warframe increased as a result of the devstream, not the opposite. And it might even become a better Warframe for me personally, because after the first shock wore off I've found myself speculating about which "second arcane" I am now going to use on my builds, and damn!, this little mini-thing is now so interesting I can hardly wait for the mainline to drop!

Edited March 1, 2020 by Graavarg

[Methanoid]

8 hours ago, kevoisvevo said:

maybe they are doing all these nerfs because of the s curve scaling on enemies now

or because MORE GRIND & MORE TIMEGATE is the only way they know.

[T.Hoagie]

11 hours ago, m0b1us1 said:

Exactly. Thats what DE doesn't understand. I have always said that DE doesn't play their own game. How many enemies can give cold, fire, or gas procs? Incredibly few, and even then there is only a CHANCE that they proc them. Meanwhile all enemies can damage you, so you will get far far more use of any arcane that procs on being damaged. When they removed raids and tried to force sanctuary onslaught down our throats as the "new end game", it was hilarious watching them struggle against level 30 enemies. DE actually thinks that the itzal should have been nerfed because it was being used more than other archwings. Even though that is 100% DE's fault that itzal became the most used archwing. When JV was still around, itzal was by far the least used archwing, only used by speed runners due to how squishy it is. It wasn't an issue then.

Having watched a number of their streams, I can kinda agree with that idea. Unless I'm mistaken, outside of the rare Eximus enemy do any of the standard bosses heavily use elemental attacks?. Let alone ones that would require negation of said damage as a tactic?, I really can't even think of one. As I recall most of them just employ obnoxious invincibility phases and gimmicks.

And sure, the Eidolon's employ Sentient damage, which the Umbral mods cover pretty well and certainly get used for more then just Eidolon hunting.

And given how they nerf things mostly based around popularity, well that does hint they have a lack of understanding towards why something is popular. I have so many guns after having been playing for so long, most of them I never use, most of them I never want to put the time and resources into. Why would I when the guns I do use are so much better in every fashion.

Then there is the states that the last two major updates were released in, though thankfully they seem to be listening at least some.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Shelneroth said:

Where you getting this from. I got the impression current ranks wouldn't be changing. Ranks four and five will be more powerful than current max rank arcanes. So if you don't double up on one arcane you won't see any difference.

I mean this in the nicest way possible: read the post about it. Its confirmed guardian will be worse.

[BloodyEy3]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb m0b1us1:

"Oh we aren't trying to increase the grind", no, you 100% absolutely are trying to increase the grind. More accurately, you are trying to nerf and change arcanes to try to keep people playing. I got all my arcane graces from NMLOR. I never once went to eidolons to try to farm for grace because I already had them. Trials were removed to give eidolons a reason to kill. I was 100% against this move as it took a hard to obtain endgame item and made it easily and readily available for everyone to farm of any skill level. Now DE is feeling the negative side effect of that poorly thought out decision. Once everyone got their arcanes, why would we ever go back to eidolons? So they want to make a new event, but people are simply not playing due to horrid rewards? They have to take something that people don't have millions of, but still have a strong impact on the game, and make a need for it again. So they take arcanes, use the DE patent excuse of "its not working right", and push out a change that will require people to farm more for them.

i pretty sure u missed the main point.

DE is trieng to make this game more and more and more casual friendly. They gave more and more casual options to farm once niche endgame items. from once a day raids to eidolon. and now from eidolon which needed special set up to efficiently farm arcanes to "additional" reward on operation (u just have to play it and you get it).

before the amount of people having arcane grace r3 arcane guardian r3 arcane energize r3 were extremly low (before eidolons r3 energize cost 3-4k plat, now u get a single energize for 100p)

because they became more common to obtain, more people had them. More people had them so the overall "balance" was more influenced because of it. it went from endgame to everyone had the basic r3 sets. Thats what pushed the needs to nerf arcanes.  Hence the need to make "balance" changes to it. (having rank 5 which needs 11 more arcanes then r3 was to still give the "endgame" for it)

if you want ur good values back on the nerfed arcanes u will have to get new arcnes (or u accept it and just keep useing ur r3). And i am not denieng its also in de intention to push their update/ operation with it. Which is not a bad idea at all

[BloodyEy3]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA:

I mean this in the nicest way possible: read the post about it. Its confirmed guardian will be worse.

and thats absolutly fantastic !! having an arcane thats up nearly always giving you 70% dmg reduction (not even speaking about stacking it) is hella broken, same for arcane energize. Now that it can only proc so often its alot more balanced. And as they said "balance doesnt necessarly mean fun"

the only problem (which stems more from shieldgating) is that arcane aegis is now trashtier, while barrier is godtier.

And that is mainly because shield recharge is trash tier. The only time it was usefull was with aegis (as it removed the delay, so the recharge had an effect), but thats less of an arcane problem more of shield recharge itself being the problem.

And on this point i can agree, that the usefullness/ uselesness of arcanes strictly stems of how appricable it is --> if they made the elemental resistence mods/ arcanes together it would already make alot more sense to use them, same for physical ones (4 base elemtnals = 1 arcae) (3 combined elementals = 1 arcane), (3 physical elemental= 1arcane) but then put it on 75% for rank 5. (or if its only the "status" proc of that dmg type, then it could still be 100%)

another example is Arcane trickery. the effect is amazing. the probem is more finisher. is super niche. The overall dmg of weapons are often way to high to even consider useing a finisher. The next problem: there are only so many ways to open an enemy for finishers (parazon health treshhold,stagger, blind, warframe abilities, naromon voiddash, melee stance combo & parry) and i dont even know if the last 2 are still in the game since melee rework.

stagger is often to short to use it (aswell if its proced through a weapon enemy is 99% dead), parazon threshold --> 99% of the time they die before reaching "finsiher" state, blind is mainly through warframe abilites (and madurai leaving voidmode --> but i think it interrupts the state aswell so its not pracitcal useable)

this leaves naromon voiddash (& melee combo, parry) as its most easy way to perform finishers conistantly. (magus lockdown or anomaly both overwrite the "open for finisher" state, so you have to even look out for those

so after even all this it has 15% chance to trigger for 30sec on a r5 arcane. I think if you go so far as set ur whole build to make 1 arcane work, it should be rewarded better.

[0_The_F00l]

DE needs to realise that Just changing a tool does not make it more useful. 

A fishing net in a desert is still unlikely to be ever used even if you make it is 5x more likely to catch fish. 

A bottle that replenishes water regularly is good no matter where you are. 

 

Most arcanes are so niche that they are borderline useless. 

 

I am more or less OK with the changes, just feels that it's not going to change anything gameplay wise. 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

5 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Most arcanes are so niche that they are borderline useless.

Dude they all are. They arnt worth the price of admission in market. DE could outright remove Arcanes for all I care 🤷‍♂️ 

I like what they have planned.

[BloodyEy3]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb (XB1)Cram Duahcim:

Dude they all are.

arcane guardian is pretty not niche and by the love of god not useless at all, same for all the good arcanes (energize, grace, avanger,...)

[SilverRook]

i love the over reaction to changes before they even happen this community has LOL