About the arcane changes: "The goal here is not at all to increase the arcane grind, we wanna correct mistakes in the meta, not squeeze you for the grind, you don't have to go back to Eidolons, you'll have Scarlet Spear". - Steve Sinclair, Devstream 139,

[SirTobe]

6 hours ago, DraekoSilver said:

Not counting any lost credits, a guy on reddit did the math how long it would take to get each reward. Going by the points I got on my first couple of runs, I would need to grind for eight hours for a single level 5 arcane. It does not matter if the event is going for one week, one month or one year.

Its all to high.

8 hours for a full rare arcane? That's NOTHING compared to farming through Eidolons. SP is effectively cutting out the dreaded RNG of it, and doesn't require a massive invesment in gear and focus to even be able to do it, especially in solo. Even the time-gating is better than the day/night-cycle of PoE. 

The grind is most definitely fair in this regard (and a kick in the balls for anyone who did a thousand Eidolons). 

[HexOmega111x]

il y a 53 minutes, SmokinDice a dit :

where does it say this?

Just a copy paste from the patch note of the first SS release:

"Keep in mind that you won’t see all Arcanes in Little Duck's Trade Offerings - we'll be added those manually over time" 

And from the patch note from the first hotfix :

"Everything you see there will be there for the whole event. Nothing is getting rotated out.

We are Adding more Arcanes to complete the collection" 

And from the SS announcement topic (of course 1 or 2 days was not taking the bugs and adjustments into account so it will come anyway) :

"Arcanes?

The full Arcane offerings will be added once the event has had 1-2 days of stress testing!"

[HexOmega111x]

il y a une heure, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan a dit :

No.  They're withholding the strongest arcanes until players balance the game for them for free, so they can make sure they're aren't any completely legitimate methods of efficient farming that they can label "exploits" and nerf, before they release the rewards people actually want.

They're probably going to hold them till the last half of the event to increase FOMO, and blame all the bugs they left in for the [DE]lay.

Jeez. If you want it to see it that way... Bad DE. 

If they want to wait before releasing the other arcane to be sure that we will not see the game being flooded with all those Arcanes. If they want to be sure that it will still require a bit of farming. This is 100% legit. Those arcanes are an important part of the content for a lot of players so it is obvious that they will be the main target of the shop. They have to be sure to not mess with them so the way they are handling it is justified. 

No matter if you want to see it the way you do or if you try to understand more legit reasons, those Arcanes will be available during the event.

Edited March 27, 2020 by HexOmega111x

[grindbert]

imagine them now deleting the eidolons because they want to shift arcane rewards to railjack.

oh, they wouldn't do that? -> rip raids

[m0b1us1]

8 hours ago, Acos said:

This event is much faster and more "secure" than grinding Eidolons since you can eliminate the RNG element from it. If I didn't already have the Arcanes I needed I could very easily have a Rank 5 after 3 days of pretty casual grinding. I keep seeing this same topic and it keeps sounding like drama-fueled politics to me. 

They mentioned in the devstream as well that they would be rebalancing some of the Arcanes in an attempt to make more than a couple of options appealing; How well you individually think they did that is subjective but lets' not pretend like they were "lying" about it either. 

To be blunt, lets' also not pretend they actually cared about balance.

The issue with "top tier" arcanes and everything else is simple and takes only a minute if you pause and think about why some arcanes are used far more than others. Relevance. Let's take arcane ice, before a max rank one would give you a 80% chance to resist a fire proc. How many instances can you name in the star chart where resisting a fire proc would be of great value. Rinse and repeat for all arcanes of this nature except for one. Now look at grace, guardian, or energize. How many instances where these would be beneficial? Well for guardian and grace, they would proc all the time because no matter where you go, enemies will be trying to damage you. So the only time when these 2 are not relevant is when you are not taking damage (like iron skin) or avoiding it (invis/limbo shenanigans). No status proc would ever be more common or valuable to resist than any of the "top tier" arcanes, except for one. Arcane nullifier was a lot like other arcanes, far too niche to be of any value compared to others. Then eidolons got dropped and they brought tons of magnetic procs with them. All of the sudden, there was a need for nullifier. That need was so strong that many many players would run double nullifier over other "top tiers".

These arcane changes were not done in an attempt to make more options appealing. They were done to increase the grind. DE had to know what this event would be like far in advanced, and when they realized that its just 2 different mobile defense missions, they randomly just dropped these arcane changes and rushed them out before they took in any feedback. Normally when they introduce a change like that, they would talk about it for several weeks or even months. The arcane changes? Nope. Rushed right out the door! They even used the patented DE excuse of "oh these aren't working as intended" for content that has been in the game for years.

Let me put it to you another way, you have a pile of roses, and a pile of rotting ghoul corpses. The roses will always smell better than the ghoul corpses, so you will always take the roses. To say that DE did these changes for the sake of "more options" is akin to saying that adding vinegar to the roses will make more people pick the ghouls. When in reality, the proper set of changes would be to make a reason for the players to pick the less popular option. This exact thing already happened with arcane nullifier.

It's not complicated logic at all, there is no trick, I am not a game designer by any means, but if I could come up with this within 2 minutes of them first talking about rebalancing arcanes, that just shows how little they actually thought about these changes. Making the arcanes not stack? Ok, that only hurts double energize and maybe double grace on Inaros only. Buffing the status resist arcanes? Sure that will help nullifier, but no one will be wanting to waste a slot for a rank 5 fire resist or cold resist arcane. More than doubling the amount of arcanes needed to get? That was absolutely done for the sole purpose of getting people to play this operation.

[m0b1us1]

1 hour ago, --Aegis--MR9 said:

A standard Tridolon team can do 3 runs per night, thats around 15 mins each run. You have to deal with RnG and take whatever arcane drops. A Ground team takes 25-30 mins to do 17 waves and with bonus reward, its pretty close. But here you can pick your reward. I dont see how this grind is unfair. DE isnt going to hand out arcanes and destroy the market for years to come. The event will last for a month, you dont need to get everything today.

You think that DE is actually worried about in game markets? You want to talk about ruining the arcane markets, arcanes were more than doubled in cost before trials were removed. Let me give you a quick run down on trials and how eidolons destroyed the arcane markets far far worse than anything this operation could ever hope for unless they were priced at 1 credit each.

Trials were a multi-mission thing where you could have anywhere between 4 to 8 players. Each mission was a significantly harder version of others, and still had many more things to do on top of that. You could only gain the reward from completing a trial once a day. If you could do it in 20 minutes, that was a great time. Most of the time in pubs it would take far longer. Each trial was gated behind a key that took 8 hours to build. However your team only needed 1 key among all of you to run it. There was 0 notification or attention brought to raids in game, so the only way you knew about them was by hearing about them from other players. You could not solo trials as there were many parts that instantly fail you if you dropped below 4 players, and even if by some miracle you did get less than that in, there were many aspects that would stop you from being able to proceed. There were only 3 trials you could do a day, law of retribution, law of retribution nightmare mode, and jordas verdict. The latter being notoriously hard if you did not know what to do or had under leveled equipment. So at absolute most, you could only gain 3 arcanes a day. Many of these groups that ran trials either did them privately, or so few people knew how to do them that you didn't get many people even looking to do them in recruit chat. Trials required knowledge and coordination to win.

Then DE killed off raids to push their new content, eidolons! Eidolons were the exact opposite. They have 0 requirement to actually gain rewards. You can take in a group of newbies who have just entered the plains, 1 geared out player who can solo them, and all players will gain arcanes. There is no hard limit to how many times you can do this in a single night, you can do this as many times as you can possibly squeeze out. It was not gated behind any key at all. You don't even need to be able to use your operator to gain the rewards, you just have to be present to pick up the items. The bosses decided that a gear check was somehow more difficult than having knowledge and coordination to win. As long as you have the gear, you will get far more arcanes from eidolons than you ever would from raids.

So you went from a heavily regulated trial system that hard capped you to only gaining at max 3 arcanes a day, all blocked by game modes that despite how well you personally did, you could fail because of another player making a simple mistake or simply not knowing what to do, gated behind 8 hour keys, and absolutely 0 reference to them in any other place in the game. To a system where there is no physical cap, they can easily be solo'd, and DE made exposure to the eidolons an unavoidable thing so that even the newest of players would learn about eidolons before they even got to mars.

Still think DE cares about "markets" in game?

[Travis05]

hace 4 horas, Nehra96 dijo:

Not everyone is receiving the bonus from doing long runs. 

I tried doing it on space, but because of the amount of ground versus space squad ratio, I didn't get any single kill code and I already had ran it on that flotilla so I couldn't waste that and change relay instance. So eventually I ended up doing ground one but nobody was joining so it was almost solo 😬. 

So, even if all is fine and dandy in your side of the world, doesn't mean other's have it as easy. 

I got that experience too. First day, no a single kill code in like 30 minutes. Another run and similar results, but like i said that was the first day. Now kill codes come normal and there is matchmaking on space. I mean you have to choose the right flotilla (you cant enter in one 95/100, or 0/100 and close to time finish), but the only problem i encounter now is "There are no murex detected". 

I prefer to do rj and i think earth mission is no worth it (too little points). They could boost the earth side, like double than it is now. I guess they did it so people with railjack feel better with their investment in a ship, and also they need to convince people rj is great content, cause many dont like it.

But yeah, the experience is now different.

[DrBorris]

If you took Steve' statement to assume that you could max rank every Arcane in one event than... I don't know what to say.

It is a joke to max an Arcane with Scarlet Spear because you get to pick exactly what you get. No Arcane Phantasm getting in your way, just two hours TOPS of grinding to get one fully maxed Arcane from scratch. This is huge, most people will only ever use 3-5 different Arcanes to begin with.

[(NSW)Greybones]

48 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

If you took Steve' statement to assume that you could max rank every Arcane in one event than... I don't know what to say.

It is a joke to max an Arcane with Scarlet Spear because you get to pick exactly what you get. No Arcane Phantasm getting in your way, just two hours TOPS of grinding to get one fully maxed Arcane from scratch. This is huge, most people will only ever use 3-5 different Arcanes to begin with.

I remember a lot of the complaints about grind earlier were throwing around numbers that were calculated against everything the event had.

There were a lot of people angry at those numbers. I was strongly under the impression that they wanted to get everything on offer, since the total was often referred to as (paraphrasing) “absolutely bonkers”.

Still waiting to do the event myself, and was nearly scared off by the attitudes of the players on the first day 😕 . Personally I’m just after maybe the two weapons and a few Arcanes, not even maxed, just something to be interesting in some builds.

Edited March 27, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones

[Krankbert]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Nehra96:

Not everyone is receiving the bonus from doing long runs. 

I tried doing it on space, but because of the amount of ground versus space squad ratio, I didn't get any single kill code and I already had ran it on that flotilla so I couldn't waste that and change relay instance. So eventually I ended up doing ground one but nobody was joining so it was almost solo 😬. 

So, even if all is fine and dandy in your side of the world, doesn't mean other's have it as easy. 

This has been my experience as well. Leave it to DE to make a huge event that a massive number of people are playing, and still splinter the community to the point where matchmaking just doesn't happen.

[Krankbert]

vor 47 Minuten schrieb DrBorris:

If you took Steve' statement to assume that you could max rank every Arcane in one event than... I don't know what to say.

It is a joke to max an Arcane with Scarlet Spear because you get to pick exactly what you get. No Arcane Phantasm getting in your way, just two hours TOPS of grinding to get one fully maxed Arcane from scratch. This is huge, most people will only ever use 3-5 different Arcanes to begin with.

Well, after about three hours of grinding and a one-time hotfix that (for some reason almost, but not quite) doubled my credits, I now have enough to buy two thirds of a fully maxed Arcane Phantasm. I have no clue how much of an Arcane Energize that is, and neither have you, but I somehow doubt that the top tier Arcanes are going to be cheaper.

So I'm going to go ahead and say that that will not be my experience.

[Lord-Childeric]

The real lie is all these players who say outright s***.

SS is a mean to get arcanes WAY FASTER than any edolons farm, whatever efficiency you have at capturing them. Stop lying on the forums and get your maths right.

[Krankbert]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb Lord-Childeric:

The real lie is all these players who say outright s***.

SS is a mean to get arcanes WAY FASTER than any edolons farm, whatever efficiency you have at capturing them. Stop lying on the forums and get your maths right.

Sure, but that's because Eidolons is also an insane grind and would cause much more uproar if they were a four week event instead of long-term content. That's beside the point though because "Scarlet Spear will be a faster way to get Arcanes than Eidolons" isn't what Steve said, so you take your strawman and go away.

[kevoisvevo]

12 hours ago, MagPrime said:

The event isn't even a week old and they're releasing a hotfix a day, the event lasts a month and DE has a track record of releasing new rewards or changing existing rewards based on player feedback and stats. 

Until the event ends with no changes made, no one has lied about anything. 

Good grief people. 

Hearing this statement just makes me sad and facepalm at DE's current work state

[Lord-Childeric]

il y a 15 minutes, Krankbert a dit :

Sure, but that's because Eidolons is also an insane grind and would cause much more uproar if they were a four week event instead of long-term content. That's beside the point though because "Scarlet Spear will be a faster way to get Arcanes than Eidolons" isn't what Steve said, so you take your strawman and go away.

Well, I'll agree fully if this event does not come back at any point, which I highly doubt , most certainly will be a yearly or twice per year event. I'll wait until they make a statement about that matter

[HugintheCrow]

11 hours ago, MagPrime said:

8 hours, over 30 days, is too high?

I don't think warframe is the game for you then. 

Are you seriously defending one-day work time-long grinding of a single (mobile defense) mission for a single item in a VIDEOGAME?
Mag, I know you're trying really hard to be some sort of e-celeb here on forums, but being contrarian for no reason isn't the best way to do it.

The grind is waaaaaay too high. But that's not even the biggest problem. The problem is that this event is designed like a job for robots, and no rewards would make it worth it to waste time on it.

inb4 "but eidolons are worse" Yes, exactly, and that is why I never ever intend on fighting eidolons either. Teralyst was boring enough for me.

 

As I said somewhere else, I wouldn't play it even if I was given 1 million platinum PER mission. I'd think about it if they gave me real money instead, since the whole thing is built like a boring corporate work, and that's grounds for real payment.

Edited March 27, 2020 by HugintheCrow

[Acos]

35 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Sure, but that's because Eidolons is also an insane grind and would cause much more uproar if they were a four week event instead of long-term content. That's beside the point though because "Scarlet Spear will be a faster way to get Arcanes than Eidolons" isn't what Steve said, so you take your strawman and go away.

What other method of Arcane acquisition do you suppose he was comparing it too, then? 

 

3 hours ago, m0b1us1 said:

These arcane changes were not done in an attempt to make more options appealing. They were done to increase the grind. DE had to know what this event would be like far in advanced, and when they realized that its just 2 different mobile defense missions, they randomly just dropped these arcane changes and rushed them out before they took in any feedback. Normally when they introduce a change like that, they would talk about it for several weeks or even months. The arcane changes? Nope. Rushed right out the door! They even used the patented DE excuse of "oh these aren't working as intended" for content that has been in the game for years.

I'm not sure your first argument makes sense; Scarlet Spear is demonstrably less grinding than previous arcane acquisition methods by a huge margin. I'm not arguing that as a hypothetical anymore either, it's blatantly obvious to anyone who isn't just being dramatic and/or willfully ignorant about the differences of either system. 

DE hasn't been able to touch Arcanes largely because the grind for their acquisition was previously so insane. People (myself included) poured hundreds of hours and thousands of platinum into relevant arcanes and while it has been obvious for quite some time that DE was not happy about the numbers they released I imagine they would have a hard time justifying that level of investment on a whim. Arcanes are more easily available now because DE had a desire to adjust their numbers. One could not have easily happened without the other.

Speaking personally I feel the "garbage" arcanes are more justified now than they were previously; I don't feel as bad about "Fire Resistance" existing when it's an optional choice rather than a garbage "reward" for a night of Eidolon slaying. 

Scarlet Spear is an obvious improvement for those of us who were actually grinding this crap beforehand, numerically. I have a lot of opinions about how to make the encounter more fun, but to pretend that it isn't a more efficient method of Arcane acquisition is absurd. 

Edited March 27, 2020 by Acos

[iLightning13]

5 hours ago, SmokinDice said:

where does it say this?

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

46 minutes ago, Acos said:

DE hasn't been able to touch Arcanes largely because the grind for their acquisition was previously so insane. People (myself included) poured hundreds of hours and thousands of platinum into relevant arcanes and while it has been obvious for quite some time that DE was not happy about the numbers they released I imagine they would have a hard time justifying that level of investment on a whim. Arcanes are more easily available now because DE had a desire to adjust their numbers. One could not have easily happened without the other.

The uproar on the forums when DE touched Arcanes with the original 5 ranks update looked insane from what I saw, both after the fact and before the update even dropped.

I’m far from dismissing the effort it took (takes) to get Arcanes. It does look crazy. 

I wonder if you see eye-to-eye with me over the idea that a majority of the player feedback surrounding the changes to Arcanes was aggressive at best, and abusive at worst? You seem like someone who had a stake in the matter, as well as seeming approachable, and I wonder what you thought of the posts made around Arcanes before and after the update dropped.

Edited March 27, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones

[vegetosayajin]

"Hours of grind" 😄
Make it days of grind for many people. 
I've done the event from the start for 1-2 hours a day(that's the free time I have, all 17) and I managed to get arcane strike and guardian to R3(both were R1 before btw) and nothing else.
As I see it I could get them to R5 and maybe one or two more arcanes before this event ends.I can't dream for the weapons, the new sim or anything else.

[DraekoSilver]

5 hours ago, SirTobe said:

8 hours for a full rare arcane? That's NOTHING compared to farming through Eidolons. SP is effectively cutting out the dreaded RNG of it, and doesn't require a massive invesment in gear and focus to even be able to do it, especially in solo. Even the time-gating is better than the day/night-cycle of PoE. 

The grind is most definitely fair in this regard (and a kick in the balls for anyone who did a thousand Eidolons). 

I know this event is faster than hunting eidolons,but they said there would not be a grind at all.

 

I was expecting to have two or three arcane in the time it would to grind for one. They pretty much lied after they nerfed the arcanes saying you can just get them back in SS.

No one is going to spend HUNDREDS of hours getting all their arcanes back to level 5, not after spending HINDEREDS of hours getting them to level 3 in the first place. Lucky for me I only needed one and now I can forget that this event was even a thing. But others are not so lucky. Other people need ALOT more arcanes that me and DE said they would get them with SS...they can, but they need to put in the hours of a full time job over the next month to do so.

 

 

[Krankbert]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Acos:

What other method of Arcane acquisition do you suppose he was comparing it too, then?  

Why do you think he was comparing anything to anything? The quote is the title of this thread. It's impossible for you to be here and not know what he said, which was "you don't have to go back to Eidolons, you'll have Scarlet Spear".

[kevoisvevo]

12 hours ago, MagPrime said:

8 hours, over 30 days, is too high?

I don't think warframe is the game for you then. 

You are right it ain't. No sane person grinds 8 frigging hours for 21 arcanes aka rank 5. I can finish re2 remake and doom eternal in that time.

[Acos]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

The uproar on the forums when DE touched Arcanes with the original 5 levels update looked insane from what I saw.

I’m far from dismissing the effort it took (takes) to get Arcanes. It does look crazy. 

I wonder if you see eye-to-eye with me over the idea that the player feedback surrounding the changes to Arcanes was aggressive at best, and abusive at worst? You seem like someone who had a stake in the matter, as well as seeming approachable, and I wonder what you thought of the posts made around Arcanes before and after the update dropped.

Player feedback on Arcanes was always going to be aggressive (at best), and I am not at all surprised by the player reaction too it. Internet anonymity is always a part of it, but I also notice these insane jumps in logic people make against game developers to "express themselves" without restraint. I also don't think people assume anyone is reading their comments, so they feel less restricted in... let's go with "expressing themselves" again. 

I actively try not to be too judgmental when responding to the vitriol; I'm not immune to it either and you should see the replies I delete before I settle on the ones I post. I try to be more cognizant of my own rage the older I get. 

My personal stake in the Arcane 'adjustments' is that I didn't notice any notable change in my efficiency in combat, and so I was not extremely bothered by it to begin with. Minor adjustments to my builds that mostly involved swapping out double sets of Arcanes for two things that accomplished similar goals. 
 

1 minute ago, Krankbert said:

Why do you think he was comparing anything to anything? The quote is the title of this thread. It's impossible for you to be here and not know what he said, which was "you don't have to go back to Eidolons, you'll have Scarlet Spear".

I hazard the assumption that he might be comparing the efficiency of Eidolons to the efficiency of Scarlet Spear in regards to the "grind" associated with Arcane acquisition given that he directly mentions both systems in the quote of this thread. I could be mistaken, but my belief is that he meant to imply that Arcanes would be easier to obtain in Scarlet Spear than in Eidolon Hunts, which would make sense since they absolutely are. 

[vegetosayajin]

5 minutes ago, kevoisvevo said:

You are right it ain't. No sane person grinds 8 frigging hours for 21 arcanes aka rank 5. I can finish re2 remake and doom eternal in that time.

btw that 8 hours is for the perfect team. Normal mission of 17 with pub takes about 40-50 min and gives 2200 credits.
That's about 14-16 hours of grind for a full uncommon arcane.

Edited March 27, 2020 by vegetosayajin