Please enough with the nerfs!

[Aldain]

Rampant power that allows players to literally ignore the game is a problem.

Things don't need to be hard to be fun yes, but there's no point in a game where players can just choose to ignore the entire foundation of the game.

Even the easiest games in the world avoid making the player ignore mechanics entirely, even bloody point and click adventure games require player interaction and thought no matter if they are legitimate brainteasers or for kids.

Conflating hard with fun is a bad thing, but conflating mind-numblingly easy with fun is just as bad, it needs a balance between the two, enough effort needed so people don't just not bother playing but not so much that people smash keyboards and controllers in a rage.

Of the two though, things being too easy has even worse of an effect that something that is too hard, while hard games might drive people away out of frustration, games that are too easy never manage to get new players in, because an entertainment media being boring is a far greater sin than being frustrating.

[SneakyErvin]

As a heavy Rev player I fully support the nerf. He is still golden to use versus liches due to his defenses. And in return for this nerf (fix) to 1+3 they opened up liches to status effects that benefit all frames.

I mean it was kinda silly to be able to 1HK a lich with 1+3 when it barely does damage to a Nox.

[Leyers_of_facade]

12 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

When they're rank 5 they most certainly are. Ever try killing one with a Stradavar Prime? Dera Vandal? Ignis Wraith? Burston Prime? Miter? Tiberon Prime? Panthera? ...Deeply deeply futile. ...and don't even get my started on fighting one with a Shaku.. aww hell no. Bad time.

Liches: I am tanky and can resist your damages!

Mesa: Peacemaker goes brrrrr

[SneakyErvin]

What I kinda hope for now with the nerfs to 2 skills that totaly trivialize 2 game modes i.e stasis and enthrall+reave, is that they'll finaly do some gutting of the AoE frames that trivialize content in a far wider way than two skill combos effecting two game modes only.

[Aldain]

9 minutes ago, Leyers_of_facade said:

Liches: noooo you can't just kill me in seconds I have 150k eHP!

Mesa: haha peacemaker go brrrr

Meme fixed.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Aldain

[Genitive]

42 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Rampant power that allows players to literally ignore the game is a problem.

Things don't need to be hard to be fun yes, but there's no point in a game where players can just choose to ignore the entire foundation of the game.

Even the easiest games in the world avoid making the player ignore mechanics entirely, even bloody point and click adventure games require player interaction and thought no matter if they are legitimate brainteasers or for kids.

Conflating hard with fun is a bad thing, but conflating mind-numblingly easy with fun is just as bad, it needs a balance between the two, enough effort needed so people don't just not bother playing but not so much that people smash keyboards and controllers in a rage.

Of the two though, things being too easy has even worse of an effect that something that is too hard, while hard games might drive people away out of frustration, games that are too easy never manage to get new players in, because an entertainment media being boring is a far greater sin than being frustrating.

Someone gets it.

I remember the outrage when DE nerfed Prism so it doesn't work through walls, or changed melee so it doesn't work through walls. Not every nerf is detrimental to the game.

Of course, many issues are on the devs. They kept a lot of wonky mechanics for years. But just because they allowed them doesn't mean they are going to keep them. 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

6 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

See, if I can't do it with the combinations that feel like.. uniquely and personally are made for me.. then it's as if that content doesn't exist, right? I can't do this or that, because doing it means playing in some way that feels cheesy, or awkward, or just.. not the kind of game feel I want.

What makes balances like this so messy, is.. I could want Shattering Impact to chip a Lich's armor off entirely, because it makes my Stradavar or whatever, with the mods that I like, to finally be competent and achieve the right kind of game feel. (Not just pointlessly throwing bullets into the void.) ...However.. if you allow shattering impact on a Lich with a player that has way more powerful gun/frame/mod combinations, that Lich becomes a push over. Like in this case, should I request a mod that allows Shaku to chip Lich armor, then it becomes a meta to bang your Lich up with that, and end them outright with some meta primary god-slayer.

Nerfs are a double edged sword.. they remove one player's ability to play a way they enjoy (being all powerful), to allow another player to enjoy something they were incapable of obtaining because of the other. Having to fracture the player base into private sessions so that everyone gets what they want, totally undermines the intent and experience of open cooperative multiplayer.. and so what do you do? You can aim for the middle of the bell curve, but no matter what, you're either shaking players off at both ends, or making things dangerously samey from a stat, feel, and performance perspective. Sure, lots of innovation can separate the feel of 10 guns with the same exact DPS.. but not everyone even wants the same approximate feel as a baseline. Tricky stuff.

Tricky stuff indeed! DE literally has to deal with a seven year span of players in an ever evolving game that is trying to tell a great story. Some players could have graduated from high school, college or could even have seven year old kids now. I 1000% DO NOT ENVY THEM! Lol!

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

"No one used Magus lockdown for damage.
Magus lockdown being limited to 2x10 Targets is more than fine, it is supposed to give you a choice. Not 100% trivialize crowd control Warframes.

Vazarine was way to strong on defense targets.

Revenant was way to strong on Liches.

Limbo was perhaps the only Warframe that did not have a diminishing effect towards Sentients, there is probably a outlier still there. And perhaps more important, Limbo still works perfectly fine."

 

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

17 hours ago, MagPrime said:

...Magus Lockdown did damage?

I use it to kill lures and hack them without wasting a Void Strike to shoot it.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

16 hours ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

Wait...liches are bullet sponges? Since when?

Since the beginning of videogame time, some players thought they were better than they actually are lol.

[CodeUltimate]

18 hours ago, Oreades said:

IMHO that Magus Lockdown "nerf" was in actuality a strait up buff. 

Never cared about the damage, never used more than two or three nodes anyhow so two is fine and IT DOESN'T TRIGGER SPY VAULT DRONES ANYMORE. SOLD! 

LOL wtf a buff he says. Before you could link up as much enemies as you wanted now you can't.

[Oreades]

38 minutes ago, CodeUltimate said:

LOL wtf a buff he says. Before you could link up as much enemies as you wanted now you can't.

And? If you needed it to lockdown a whole map you where playing well outside your means. 

If you'd been using it as intended this whole time, locking down small groups of enemies and not relying on it as your primary source of damage. Then it still does everything it was meant to and it doesn't trigger Vault Drones anymore. That my friend is a win. 

If you still see it as a nerf, whelp  *starts playing the worlds smallest Shawzin*

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by Oreades
more specific on the damage.

[CodeUltimate]

1 minute ago, Oreades said:

And? If you needed it to lockdown a whole map you where playing well outside your means. 

If you'd been using it as intended this whole time, locking down small groups of enemies and not relying on it for damage. Then it still does everything it was meant to and it doesn't trigger Vault Drones anymore. That my friend is a win. 

If you still see it as a nerf, whelp  *starts playing the worlds smallest Shawzin*

 

It is objectively a nerf please stop being delusional. thanks xd

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

5 hours ago, ant99999 said:

Literally only for lures. 

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

6 minutes ago, CodeUltimate said:

It is objectively a nerf please stop being delusional. thanks xd

It was objectively a crutch. Stop being delusional, thanks. 

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

6 hours ago, trst said:

Lockdown was capable of killing enemies, for free, regardless of their levels. It was one of if not the single strongest forms of scaling damage we had.

Protective Dash trivializes all defense missions due to the five second invulnerability. Plus it's 100% free due to operator energy regenerating within the invulnerability.

Revenant can down tier five Liches with one cast of Reave.

Limbo still affects Sentients, try the changes yourself instead of parroting what other people say. The change fixed the mechanics Sentients have always had which wasn't applying to Stasis as it should have.

And, no, nerfs when justified do make a better game and every one of these changes are fully justified.

Pretty much.

Now we wait for that Viral nerf and the inevitable backlash.

[kapn655321]

On 2020-04-08 at 8:25 AM, Leyers_of_facade said:

Mesa

Man, I ditched that frame so fast... I don't even think I leveled her original frame to 30 before she hit the airlock. (Regardless of what a complete pain she is to grind.. I'm never going think that was a bad call. MR fodder isn't worth me hating my time in game.) That's just a fundamental style choice for me. I like my powers to manipulate the battlefield, give me QOL utility, etc.. while my weapons do the killing. Otherwise, why have any (let alone upwards 400) weapons in the game? o_O

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by kapn655321

[Slivarito]

Lockdown was the single strongest form of scaling damage in the game for how safe it was to apply.  You could stack it infinitely at no risk, and it did % max health damage. It was the go-to form of damage for endless, and it's what all the groups used that had high scores in the Hostile Mergers event.  Combined with Naramon you'd refund more energy than you'd use dashing, so you'd have infinite dashes, infinite scaling damage, and you were at zero risk.

The nerf was needed because it trivialized all content in the game with a few exceptions (see, Catchmoon nerf).

[kevoisvevo]

On 2020-04-08 at 3:15 AM, Hellmaker2004 said:

No one used Magus lockdown for damage.
Magus lockdown being limited to 2x10 Targets is more than fine, it is supposed to give you a choice. Not 100% trivialize crowd control Warframes.

Vazarine was way to strong on defense targets.

Revenant was way to strong on Liches.

Limbo was perhaps the only Warframe that did not have a diminishing effect towards Sentients, there is probably a outlier still there. And perhaps more important, Limbo still works perfectly fine.

limbo doesn't work fine now, at lvl 150 sentients walk into a 40 sec stasis field and stay locked for 5 sec and that goes for the ones even outside the bubble having never entered it in the first place. by DE's logic every i do mean every enemy affecting power should be nerfed on sentients. 

[Hellmaker2004]

20 minutes ago, kevoisvevo said:

limbo doesn't work fine now, at lvl 150 sentients walk into a 40 sec stasis field and stay locked for 5 sec and that goes for the ones even outside the bubble having never entered it in the first place. by DE's logic every i do mean every enemy affecting power should be nerfed on sentients. 

Funny, against level 188 Sentients mine last longer than 5 seconds.
Unless you Hyperbol, or are referring to the enemies who have a diminishing effect on them due to repeatedly being affected by Stasis, you know the very same thing probably every single frame at the moment have with the majority of their toolkit against Sentients.

So no, it was not a nerf. They simply changed him to work like pretty much every single ability in the game. Obviously there probably are exceptions.

My recommendation would be to kill the Sentients instead of trying to AFK farm a event. Mesa works wonderful for this, despite them getting a 95% Damage reduction against her, one type at a time, sure, but always the strongest first.

[TioMegaManX]

On 2020-04-07 at 4:40 PM, (NSW)Katsuro said:

nerf magus lockdown damage and CC limit

nerf vazarin protective dash on defence targets

nerf revenant 1 & 3 on liches

nerf limbo affecting sentients

Nerfs do not make a player return to the game it promotes the opposite instead create better content, events, new fun mechanics & rewards to keep the game interesting not reducing the enjoyment of the game.

Vivergate.

[(PSN)segulibanez65]

On 2020-04-07 at 5:07 PM, kapn655321 said:

OP, perhaps we can get your take on how to resolve the issues that those changes aimed to resolve.

We have players saying the game is too easy and boring as a result of having such things at our disposal that trivialize the game. DE feels they undermine the intended experience that they were trying to design, and it's harming their product and reputation.

So what do you personally do, to address those concerns, without these changes? Maybe if we work from there, we can reach some agreements.

Power of abilities/gear is not what makes this game easy and boring.  Brain-dead AI, and no strategic gameplay against enemies is what makes it a snooze even in 2 hour endless.  The latter could be solved, if DE would allow enemies to be affected by many of the frames abilities.  But no, everything is status immune because it makes the star chart content "too easy" as if that's even possible.

So to make the game "challenging" anything players find fun gets nuked into the ground.  We will never have challenge in this game because they do not know how to implement it; all challenge is to them is cranking the dial on scaling.  We could have FUN; all they have to do is leave s*** alone, but no, instead we get neither... This is why WF's player base are exiting in droves; the game is not fun anymore.  Without fail, whenever we find something that is fun, it gets destroyed.  If every 3mo all my rivens are going to be nerfed, why would I keep playing, given that is the only system I still login for?  The answer is I won't, nor have I been at an increasing clip, just like thousands of other players.

As to how you fix it: bring in Team Ninja, Platinum, From Soft, etc as consultants on how to create fun, challenging, and rewarding action combat, with enemies that have interesting mechanics that are not engaged with & defeated purely based on the numbers attached to each party.  It will never happen...

Edited April 9, 2020 by (PS4)segulibanez65

[SandDune]

On 2020-04-08 at 6:32 AM, trst said:

Protective Dash trivializes all defense missions due to the five second invulnerability. Plus it's 100% free due to operator energy regenerating within the invulnerability.

 

On 2020-04-08 at 6:32 AM, trst said:

And, no, nerfs when justified do make a better game and every one of these changes are fully justified.

Sure alot of the nerfs were justified even the Vazarin one to an extent, but the severity of the nerf isn't justified.

In Vazarin's Dash case, ever since Magus Repair came out, Protective Dash's original use of dashing through teammates/your own frame to heal 'em died off (that's a whole 'nother problem though) leaving it with it's only other use to heal defense objectives. (Which I still doubt was even intended to begin with)  500 health /s for 6/s non-stacking and NO invul or even damage reduction is just abysmal especially at higher levels where you may actually need to use it.  Just lower the heal amount to like 6% or so total (since it is spammable) so it isn't totally useless vs high level or even mid level defense targets (and scales with level cause everyone loves scaling abilities), and give it a damage reduction amount of like 50% or so, and it'll be fine in the defense objective sense.

Honestly I think they did right when it came to Limbo's nerf, they didn't outright destroy it, heck it's still one of the more used frames in Scarlet Spear cause it still has a use.  That's how you properly nerf something, not nerf something till it lacks a use cause it's now worse then better alternatives.

[SpringRocker]

On 2020-04-08 at 4:47 AM, Aldain said:

Rampant power that allows players to literally ignore the game is a problem.

Things don't need to be hard to be fun yes, but there's no point in a game where players can just choose to ignore the entire foundation of the game.

Even the easiest games in the world avoid making the player ignore mechanics entirely, even bloody point and click adventure games require player interaction and thought no matter if they are legitimate brainteasers or for kids.

Conflating hard with fun is a bad thing, but conflating mind-numblingly easy with fun is just as bad, it needs a balance between the two, enough effort needed so people don't just not bother playing but not so much that people smash keyboards and controllers in a rage.

Of the two though, things being too easy has even worse of an effect that something that is too hard, while hard games might drive people away out of frustration, games that are too easy never manage to get new players in, because an entertainment media being boring is a far greater sin than being frustrating.

This is probably the best way I've seen it stated on the forums so far.

[kengxiaoju]

On 2020-04-08 at 7:45 AM, Hellmaker2004 said:

No one used Magus lockdown for damage.
Magus lockdown being limited to 2x10 Targets is more than fine, it is supposed to give you a choice. Not 100% trivialize crowd control Warframes.

Vazarine was way to strong on defense targets.

Revenant was way to strong on Liches.

Limbo was perhaps the only Warframe that did not have a diminishing effect towards Sentients, there is probably a outlier still there. And perhaps more important, Limbo still works perfectly fine.

yes people use lock down to do dmg. noobs just dont know how to use it

and pros exploit it for eso solo

and it kills lvl 9999 enermy fast