Do you think the nail is in the coffin?

[GreyDeath789]

2 minutes ago, Goodwill said:

You are completely right. All I'm saying is that DE does play their own game, but what they can cover is nowhere near the amount of what thousands of players can cover. I do agree that some things like the grind should be better thought out in advance. For them to cover what players can, it will considerably lengthen development windows and if you've been around in the forums for the past two years, you probably know about the content drought crowd. We'd be having the same amount of complaints from players, but just from the other side.

On a side note of the grind, it's hard to gauge tolerances. As someone who's come from Korean MMOs, Warframe feels like a vacation in comparison. But for people who may come from other experiences, I can see how it is intolerable. I mean, I guess no one would complain about a lesser grind so I am most certainly not against a vacation getting better. But if DE asks for my opinion and I say it is tolerable, then they ask another play and they say it's absolutely atrocious, that doesn't really help them. You could say that DE doesn't know what they want to do and they put too much on the players to make decisions for them.

The conversation should then be, how should DE test their game thoroughly while still satisfying the content drought crowd. I think we as players need to agree on one of two things, would we prefer more polished content at the expense of much longer development/testing times. Or would we prefer to get content quicker to play at the expense of seeing it in an unfinished state and the "promise" it would be improved later? 

Honestly, I'm fine with either option. I got plenty of other stuff I can be doing so taking a break from Warframe is no skin off my back. On the other hand, I also don't mind getting incomplete features to test drive. But that's me and I am not speaking for anyone else.

Agree as well! Hands out 100 platinum to all to avoid hugs (social distancing and all)...

DE needs to make a test server that is public facing so players can test content before mainstream release. But that would slow down releases probably and that isn't something that DE has expressed interest in...

[(PSN)SolarPhantom82]

10 hours ago, Goodwill said:

Thing is, NOBODY on the forums is offering solutions. That's why it seems like DE isn't listening because feedback, criticisms and suggestions are NOT solutions.

Players have been offering solutions for the past two years. .. simple things like increase railjack vacuum. . And we get told " we discussing it" and then hear nothing. .. 

so now the player who a just tied of not been heard ,  have just started saying WTF are you doing. ..

on the next dev stream they are going to talk about the community been upset with the last 6 months of content. .  Hope it's good, 

but railjack never did get that vacuum increase. .. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by (PS4)SolarPhantom82

[UserO1]

7 hours ago, GreyDeath789 said:

While your point that new players are good for the game...IMO...it is flawed to suggest that new players are the fix for losing current/veteran players. Churn happens but retention strategies are as or more important than acquisition strategies. Ignoring retention and focusing on just acquisition to reduce churn is unlikely to make the game survive in the long term.

"Customer retention describes the actions and strategies used to prevent customers from taking their money elsewhere. When a customer defects, it’s known as churn. Customer retention efforts, when done successfully, will prevent churn and encourage repeat customers.

Keeping customers happy is nothing new, but it’s taken on greater importance ever since a little something we call the SaaS industry came about. Churn is devastating for recurring revenue businesses of all kinds—a silent killer. If you're not proactive, your customer base could be eroding even as you book more and more new clients."

Source article for above quote on customer retention

Player retention strategies work to reduce churn rates.

"1.Find Them: Acquire customers and determine which are the most valuable.

2.Engender Habits: Implement tangible strategies for drawing back those valuable customers - get them to click your button again.

3.Keep Them: Focus customer service strategies on meeting customer needs and preventing them from 'churning.'"

White paper source for above quote on player retention in online gaming

#1 is about acquisition and analyzing how to retain those new players

#2 is about how to retain existing (new or old) players

#3 is about retention of existing (new or old) players

So...a flashy trailer about new content in a game will get new (and "churned" out old players) to return to the game to take a look...but there is only a percentage of those that will continue to play the game over the long run.

With mobile gaming being easily accessible and a steady stream of new games released on mobile platforms (phones) the retention rate of a specific game will struggle.

"A staggering 94% of players tend to abandon gaming apps by day 28. Among the genres with the longest retention were puzzle, word, board, trivia and casino game apps."

Source for above quote about mobile game retention

The point is that while new players are good...more players are better...retention is what will keep a game like Warframe alive in the long run...at least IMO.

I like you. Good post. Well thought out and reasoned. 
 

it all comes down to customer life time value. What is the expected average life time of a revenue producing player? How does DE extend this? How does DE get more (revenue producing players and revenue)?

[xXDeadsinxX]

6 hours ago, VitalAmprex said:

Looks like they’re going to address some concerns on next friday’s dev stream. 

Addressing it is one thing, actually acting on it is another. Let’s hope that they finally start fixing the game.

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

Nah, I don't think this the final nail. But, it certainly is starting to seem like Warframe is becoming stagnant which means that in a year or two, yes, it might very well be gone.

[EdinaMonsoon]

i'm actually really enjoying the game again after my burn out that started when railjack came out 😄

[(PSN)Limorkil]

Personally, I don't really mind if new events have issues, although it's obviously not good.  For me, what is making this game worse over time is:

- Nerfs

- Penalties for playing solo

Nerfs piss me off the most because it takes me a really long time to get something, like a prime weapon or frame or a zaw/kitgun and when it gets nerfed it's just many hours of play invalidated.  The threat of nerfs just dis-incentivizes playing the game.  It's why I stopped playing MMOs.  I mention nerfs because DE have been reasonably good at not nerfing too much in the past, but they are really ramping it up of late.

Since I started playing in 2017, the highlights of Warframe content have been the two open world areas - PoE and OV.  Those are absolutely fantastic and I hold out hope that DE will do open world Mars.  I can't believe they don't see the draw in that, since Mars has been topical for several years.

Railjack and Scarlet Spear - not touched them.  Solo penalties and they just sound horribly grindy.  For Scarlet Spear, I don't have the consecutive time to spend doing many waves of a mission.  Fair play to people that do.  I'm not against it: I just don't have the time to engage with it.  I doesn't put me off the game, but it would if most of the content headed in this solo-penalized endurance-run focused direction.  (And allowing me to spend plat to short cut it won't work.  I don't pay to skip.)

[Zimzala]

11 hours ago, Goodwill said:

Thing is, NOBODY on the forums is offering solutions. That's why it seems like DE isn't listening because feedback, criticisms and suggestions are NOT solutions.

The onus on the playerbase is to give feedback, not solutions,

The developer creates the solutions.

I for one would run away very fast if creative direction was given to the masses.

So many gamers are filled with egos that make them think they know better and that if the game company does not listen to them specifically it will fail is the hilarious bit.

Sure, there are good ideas that pop up on forums and I am sure some of them inspire solutions, but feedbakc, good and bad, preferably specific and intelligently presetned, is what a game company needs, not an army or armchair developers.

[Felsagger]

On 2020-04-10 at 8:03 AM, Goodwill said:

The conversation should then be, how should DE test their game thoroughly while still satisfying the content drought crowd. I think we as players need to agree on one of two things, would we prefer more polished content at the expense of much longer development/testing times. Or would we prefer to get content quicker to play at the expense of seeing it in an unfinished state and the "promise" it would be improved later? 

Honestly, I'm fine with either option. I got plenty of other stuff I can be doing so taking a break from Warframe is no skin off my back. On the other hand, I also don't mind getting incomplete features to test drive. But that's me and I am not speaking for anyone else.

Finally we have wood to work with. 

1. The variables are retention of current clients or acquisition of new clients to cut churn. Both policies are equably valid. One over the other doesn't guarantee the survivability of the game. This problem happens when the rate of production is less than the rate of consumption. Retention is hard to keep because there is not enough 'energy' or content for sustainability of these users. 

2. Warframe became a bait system. If initial items are downgraded by programmed obsolescence then how you secure retention? The life expectancy of this game depends on satisfaction and the 'small innovations' on each update. How we work with the idea of 'novelty'?

3. That way of thinking is risky. Your are giving free licence and encourage DE to become EA. You are accepting less for more. In other word that policy becomes a compromise and of course a liability. You are hurting the whole gaming community indirectly by accepting that mechanics. 

 

On 2020-04-10 at 2:44 PM, UserO1 said:

 

it all comes down to customer life time value. What is the expected average life time of a revenue producing player? How does DE extend this? How does DE get more (revenue producing players and revenue)?

The IMPORTANT QUESTION WAS MADE. Finally. 

Now we can discuss DESIGN. 

Customer life value is the real central topic here. When people grow with this product these individuals gets more awareness by the years. These people understand how the designer behave and how the designer needs to fight off innovation, novelty and relevance. The problem of churn happens in every game and retention for that span of time is almost impossible. What motivates people go back to Horizon Zero Dawn or Spiderman? What motivates developers create new content for these old games? The second question is easy to answer, money. However the first question is a bit more hard to answer. 

Let us run a short analysis in terms of indirect revenue producing player. 

1. A veteran produces free advertisement of the game and how the game is featured. 

2. A veteran guides the new players on how to get through the game and how get involved with the intricacies of it. The veteran becomes a guide. 

3. A veteran produces material on how to use mods, on the new meta decided by the development team, and how to power creep in a smart way without being 'cheap'. 

4. A revenue producing player always speaks about their new apparel, how to look interesting with the 'fashion frame' and what to do in smart way. 

5. A revenue producing player buys accessories that are not accessible in the game. Indirectly he induces sales. 

6. A revenue producing player play/test the game for free. He wants to make the game interesting, entertaining and immersible. 

7. There is no guarantee to retain new players. Their life expectancy is short because they are not used to the grind game concept. Veterans needs to guide them. Veterans secure that such new players INVEST TIME or MONEY in the game. This pyramidal strategy of business happens WHEN you retain your veterans. 

This one message is for DE. 

Listen DE, just listen.

"YOU CAN LEARN A LOT FROM YOUR MISTAKES WHEN YOU ARE NOT BUSY DENYING THEM"

Pay attention to that quote and take notes. 

[Sahansral]

I don't know what the last nail in the coffin will be, but the first one in my opionion are definitly rivens.

They increased existing power creep, furthered the decline of CC, worsened the whole economy and are the epitome of RNG in an already grindy game..
The funny thing is, while it's claimed that the game is designed to be playable without rivens you can crush most of the "hard" content with them, taking out the last bit of challenge.  

DE really backed themselves in a corner with rivens.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

10 hours ago, Goodwill said:

On a side note of the grind, it's hard to gauge tolerances. As someone who's come from Korean MMOs, Warframe feels like a vacation in comparison. But for people who may come from other experiences, I can see how it is intolerable. I mean, I guess no one would complain about a lesser grind so I am most certainly not against a vacation getting better. But if DE asks for my opinion and I say it is tolerable, then they ask another play and they say it's absolutely atrocious, that doesn't really help them. You could say that DE doesn't know what they want to do and they put too much on the players to make decisions for them.

Yeah, unfortunately we don't make it easy for DE when it comes to balance changes in general. Despite this however, I do think DE does a pretty good job overall aside from the occasional curve ball (Hema, Tower White when it was on Condrocs, Arcanes when they were giant Gem sinks, etc).

I still personally think the amount of grind in this game is tolerable for the most part. I think the real issue is that a lot of content has stuff you want/need to grind for only in that specific "island" of content. When you bottleneck players into a very linear set of missions over and over again, people are going to get irritated faster and not want to continue if they feel as if they're just running in circles. While I know that's kind of weird to say considering Warframe is very linear, I'm talking more about if people FEEL its repetitive. However, it's very easy to add variety while not changing too much, look at all the different types of sandwiches you can make and eat. You can easily make a grilled cheese, PB & J and a ham sandwich every day, and as long as you eat each type in small amounts and change up which days you eat which sandwich, you'd have a far harder time getting sick of sandwiches.

For example, I'm sure the Hema would have been a far less controversial addition if DE made it so Mutagen Samples were more common in Infested missions as a whole and weren't only limited to the Derelict. Would it have still been a grind? Certainly, but now players have options, and even if one is better than the other, chances are that person has run a few Infested missions, enough to hopefully get at least a sizable portion of the weapon done. I know I see something as far easier to complete (and therefore more worth the effort) when I already have some of it done by just playing normally.

I'm positive that's why you saw rather high Arcane prices before Scarlet Spear, Arcanes (for Eidolons and Arbi's of course) are pure RNG you have to consistently run over and over again to even have a chance to get, and you may just get unlucky and never get what you're looking for after who knows how many runs. That's not even mentioning the limited weapons and Warframes you're forced to play due to you needing 21 Arcanes, which you need to get as fast as possible because Eidolons still have the artificial timer for some reason and are known for being completely immune to everything our Warframes can do damage-wise aside from weapon buffs.

TL;DR, DE needs items to be obtainable from more than just one location 99% of the time.

[Sovyul]

On 2020-04-09 at 1:20 AM, MagPrime said:

If there wasn't a near world wide quarantine and legal stay at home order in place, I could agree with this but I think it's less people coming back/joining because the game is improving and more "wtf else can I play?"

The irony of this is that now those people who could play <10hrs in total a week, now play more and get to see the major flaws of the game.

[UserO1]

5 hours ago, Felsagger said:

The IMPORTANT QUESTION WAS MADE. Finally. 

Now we can discuss DESIGN. 

Customer life value is the real central topic here. When people grow with this product these individuals gets more awareness by the years. These people understand how the designer behave and how the designer needs to fight off innovation, novelty and relevance. The problem of churn happens in every game and retention for that span of time is almost impossible. What motivates people go back to Horizon Zero Dawn or Spiderman? What motivates developers create new content for these old games? The second question is easy to answer, money. However the first question is a bit more hard to answer. 

Let us run a short analysis in terms of indirect revenue producing player. 

1. A veteran produces free advertisement of the game and how the game is featured. 

2. A veteran guides the new players on how to get through the game and how get involved with the intricacies of it. The veteran becomes a guide. 

3. A veteran produces material on how to use mods, on the new meta decided by the development team, and how to power creep in a smart way without being 'cheap'. 

4. A revenue producing player always speaks about their new apparel, how to look interesting with the 'fashion frame' and what to do in smart way. 

5. A revenue producing player buys accessories that are not accessible in the game. Indirectly he induces sales. 

6. A revenue producing player play/test the game for free. He wants to make the game interesting, entertaining and immersible. 

7. There is no guarantee to retain new players. Their life expectancy is short because they are not used to the grind game concept. Veterans needs to guide them. Veterans secure that such new players INVEST TIME or MONEY in the game. This pyramidal strategy of business happens WHEN you retain your veterans. 

 

 

No one is arguing that the community - particularly veteran players who help newcomers - is a bad thing, nor that they should be ignored. But catering to them exclusively? Yeah, that's not a good long term strategy.

[Felsagger]

6 hours ago, UserO1 said:

  But catering to them exclusively? Yeah, that's not a good long term strategy.

Retention and acquisition are equal strategies used to reduce churn. 

This is a fifty fifty strategy of gaining revenues and resources for your game. You keep your veterans while you acquire new players. New content and EXPLORATION is what keeps EVERYONE glued to a game. Repetition and grind excessively brings bore. 

 

DE EXCLUDED THE MOST IMPORTANT FEATURE IN THIS GAME. FUN. 

Simple. 

[grindbert]

i think the coffin is already buried. we're on the last few breaths of air that are left.

[UserO1]

2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Retention and acquisition are equal strategies used to reduce churn. 

This is a fifty fifty strategy of gaining revenues and resources for your game. You keep your veterans while you acquire new players. New content and EXPLORATION is what keeps EVERYONE glued to a game. Repetition and grind excessively brings bore. 

 

DE EXCLUDED THE MOST IMPORTANT FEATURE IN THIS GAME. FUN. 

Simple. 

Exactly my point. Except ... I'm still having fun. If you are not, then you've reached the end of LTV. It's natural, and it's OK. Or, you can find a way for it to be fun again. I've found that setting a goal of how much Plat I can acquire through the market is fun - without screwing other players. The real world economy is better than anything like Elite or other sim games.

[InsuranceFraud]

Idk, I just hope they address the concerns on the dev stream 

[Felsagger]

On 2020-04-11 at 2:00 AM, UserO1 said:

I've found that setting a goal of how much Plat I can acquire through the market is fun - without screwing other players. The real world economy is better than anything like Elite or other sim games.

 

The game is already dead. A Chinese company, Leyou Technologies has 91 % of DE. But is ok, you can enjoy dead games. What follows is the burial. It may be slow or fast. DE eventually will leave this one behind.

 

To be honest, at this point it would be much better if DE do something else while this continues on the hands of another developer. DE is just being the PR face of it trying to extend the death while it makes money. 

 

 

[Corvid]

13 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

The game is already dead.

And you expect people to take you seriously with this?

[Felsagger]

2 minutes ago, Corvid said:

And you expect people to take you seriously with this?

 

Is the truth. The game is dead. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Felsagger

[Corvid]

Just now, Felsagger said:

 

Is the truth. 

Yet by every conceivable metric, the opposite is the case.

[Felsagger]

Just now, Corvid said:

Yet by every conceivable metric, the opposite is the case.

 

Dead games doesn't imply that such game is not being played. The people who plays it doesn't abandon them completely since they are attached to it. They dedicated time. However the formula came to an end. 

 

Leyou Technology purchased the game because the cash cow still produces milk but it doesn't produces real new content or breakthrough. The company is interested in turning this game into a phone game. 

[MagPrime]

1 minute ago, Felsagger said:

 

Dead games doesn't imply that such game is not being played. The people who plays it doesn't abandon them completely since they are attached to it. They dedicated time. However the formula came to an end. 

 

Leyou Technology purchased the game because the cash cow still produces milk but it doesn't produces real new content or breakthrough. The company is interested in turning this game into a phone game. 

Is this your assumption or do you have anything to back this up?

Wouldn't mind WF being a mobile game...

[Felsagger]

3 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

 

Wouldn't mind WF being a mobile game...

 

It will happen eventually. Would be nice if Sony purchase DE or if Sony picks the game up and other developers like Guerrilla Games and few others collaborate adding more content to it. 

 

I think DE needs some vacation of it and do something else. They are burned out. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Felsagger

[Corvid]

5 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

 

Dead games doesn't imply that such game is not being played. The people who plays it doesn't abandon them completely since they are attached to it. They dedicated time. However the formula came to an end. 

 

Leyou Technology purchased the game because the cash cow still produces milk but it doesn't produces real new content or breakthrough. The company is interested in turning this game into a phone game. 

Define "Real new content". Because by the definition that I know of (new levels, classes, enemies and game modes) Warframe has never stopped adding it.

Also, you really should learn how investment works.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Corvid