Recent changes to Warframe abilities

[Cype9k]

First, DE "fixed" Chroma because people were using him to 1-shot Eidolons back during Plains of Eidolon's release, after years without a single change to him, but now people can do that with just Oberon/Volt/Void Strike.

Then they "fixed" Limbo against Sentinents, saying that "sentients adapt to warframe abilities", even tho stuff like Frost/Nova/Gara/Rhino/Lockdown can stop Battalysts dead in place just fine.

And finally they wanted to remove Khora's Venari/Vazarin's dash healing defense targets, even tho that's been there ever since the Focus tree rework/Khora's release. Granted, they're reverting Khora's changes, but still.

One time is a mistake, two times is a coincidence, three times is a pattern.

[at35z]

They had to nerf Limbo specifically because people have been complaining that he trivializes the event and they found it too easy because of it. I remember a youtuber specifically saying that maybe Limbo needs to be weaker against the sentients, that may help with the event.

[Highresist]

1 minute ago, at35z said:

They had to nerf Limbo specifically because people have been complaining that he trivializes the event and they found it too easy because of it.

Cough cough Nova and Mesa. 

[(PSN)xBellikx]

hace 49 minutos, Cype9k dijo:

even tho stuff like Frost

As a Frost main (yes it's sad, i know) i feel like every time i freeze the damn thing it stays frozen for a shorter amount of time than the last time i froze it.

I don't exactly know if this is true, it's just how i've felt now that we have the chance to fight more often those flying sticks.

[Acos]

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Chroma/Patch_History

I wouldn't be surprised if after the event they give Sentients a more broad-spectrum CC immunity; adapting to Limbo specifically is pretty obviously a response to how bored players were getting with the meta developing around Scarlet Spear. I feel like the sentients might already have growing CC immunity as it feels like re-applications of crowd control seem to stick around for shorter periods of time, but I haven't really taken them into the simulacrum to test it out either. 

Most (all?) defense frames have some sort of built-in "failure" so that you can't just completely dominate an enemy. I know as a Nova, for example, that even slowing enemies to max will still eventually result in enough damage being done that I can't solo a 17 run by myself. Limbo is supposed to have a failure state as well, it's just that it doesn't ever come up due to how most players mod him. If enough projectiles enter the Rift it will collapse, but because the Rift can be so large most enemies don't start shooting into it until they've already walked into it and become frozen. I've suggested changes for this behavior in the past (I don't think Limbo is designed very well) but I don't think DE has been interested in looking at Limbo again until he got popular with this event, and they probably won't have time to do anything until after Covid-19 and the even has ended anyway. 

Limbo's sentient specific changes are a temporary fix to make the event suck less for those of us who like to kill things that can like... sort of fight back. 



 

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, Cype9k said:

even tho stuff like Frost

He doesnt get the full duration versus sentients. He gets maybe half the time. A well played Limbo can get the full stasis duration in effect, which is more than enough time to kill them and catch the next batch. Problem with most Limbo's is that they let the sentients hit the edge of the cataclysm over and over, making diminishing return kick in for stasis, if they'd just cancel stasis from time to time so the sentients get inside the cataclysm area it will take longer before they end up outside and start bashing their forehead on it. Which results in more stasis upkeep and nothing wasted on the diminishing return when hitting the edge of the barrier.

[trst]

If something is out of line but is no harm to anything then it's a non-issue or can fly completely under the radar.

Chroma didn't need to be changed because his insane scaling didn't accomplish anything meaningful until Eidolons where now you at least need decent weapons and a way to stay alive. If Eidolons were never made then he would have likely gone unchanged until the Orb Mothers, some endless mode release (Arbitrations or Disruption), or for the current event with due to including lv150 Sentients.

Sentients have had ability resistance, it isn't new, but we've never had Sentient focused content thus when Limbo (the strongest CC frame in a mode where killing is optional) or any other frame/effect doesn't trigger it then it's now a problem or was completely unknown till now. If any other ability bypasses the resistance then it needs to be changed as well.

And, afaik, the Khora change was due to her being able to heal Oplinks which are defense objectives that were immune to all other forms of object healing besides the support system. The change was entirely ham-fisted but changing it for the oplinks at least was still warranted. Also it was ultimately a good change as it prompted discussion and an upcoming rework to healing interactions with defense targets.

  

4 hours ago, Acos said:

-snip-

Sentients already have a broad CC based immunity as diminishing returns on duration based abilities isn't a new mechanic. The Limbo change was a fix in that the resistance didn't apply to Stasis when it should have as it does with all other abilities like it and as such it should be in no way temporary. Also hasn't the projectile interaction been gone since his rework? Pretty sure they go through it like normal and just don't do damage to enemies in the opposite plane.

Edited April 12, 2020 by trst

[(PSN)Xachary_Cross]

4 hours ago, (PS4)xBellikx said:

As a Frost main (yes it's sad, i know) i feel like every time i freeze the damn thing it stays frozen for a shorter amount of time than the last time i froze it.

I don't exactly know if this is true, it's just how i've felt now that we have the chance to fight more often those flying sticks.

 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

He doesnt get the full duration versus sentients. He gets maybe half the time. A well played Limbo can get the full stasis duration in effect, which is more than enough time to kill them and catch the next batch. Problem with most Limbo's is that they let the sentients hit the edge of the cataclysm over and over, making diminishing return kick in for stasis, if they'd just cancel stasis from time to time so the sentients get inside the cataclysm area it will take longer before they end up outside and start bashing their forehead on it. Which results in more stasis upkeep and nothing wasted on the diminishing return when hitting the edge of the barrier.

 

4 hours ago, Acos said:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Chroma/Patch_History

I wouldn't be surprised if after the event they give Sentients a more broad-spectrum CC immunity; adapting to Limbo specifically is pretty obviously a response to how bored players were getting with the meta developing around Scarlet Spear. I feel like the sentients might already have growing CC immunity as it feels like re-applications of crowd control seem to stick around for shorter periods of time, but I haven't really taken them into the simulacrum to test it out either. 
\

 

 

 

From personal observation, Vauban and Frost also have reduced duration on them (IE on the ground, the Grineer stay effected longer then the Sentients). I don't know if its "diminsihing returns", seems more like a flat 30/40% reduction

[kevoisvevo]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

He doesnt get the full duration versus sentients. He gets maybe half the time. A well played Limbo can get the full stasis duration in effect, which is more than enough time to kill them and catch the next batch. Problem with most Limbo's is that they let the sentients hit the edge of the cataclysm over and over, making diminishing return kick in for stasis, if they'd just cancel stasis from time to time so the sentients get inside the cataclysm area it will take longer before they end up outside and start bashing their forehead on it. Which results in more stasis upkeep and nothing wasted on the diminishing return when hitting the edge of the barrier.

Problem with that is now you are spamming a 100 energy ult all the time and if those sentients start moving for even a split sec inside rift then it's game over for limbo. And unlike frost he has no Armor to save his ass in the rift.

Edited April 12, 2020 by kevoisvevo

[Arcira]

5 hours ago, (PS4)xBellikx said:

As a Frost main (yes it's sad, i know) i feel like every time i freeze the damn thing it stays frozen for a shorter amount of time than the last time i froze it.

I don't exactly know if this is true, it's just how i've felt now that we have the chance to fight more often those flying sticks.

That´s correct. They added cc adaptation which is a nerf for pretty much everyone relying on it. Well at least for most frames Baruuk´s sleep for example still works 100% and the reason Limbo is broken is certainly not because of his stun. Balancing on point as usual

Edited April 12, 2020 by Arcira

[condimentking]

6 hours ago, at35z said:

They had to nerf Limbo specifically because people have been complaining that he trivializes the event and they found it too easy because of it. I remember a youtuber specifically saying that maybe Limbo needs to be weaker against the sentients, that may help with the event.

But a nerf that's bc of the event that doesn't last long? Come on, man... .

Buff it back when SS is gone... .

[Serafim_94]

Man, you actually need to PRESS BUTTONS in SS with Limbo now. Cry harder.

 

[SneakyErvin]

43 minutes ago, kevoisvevo said:

Problem with that is now you are spamming a 100 energy ult all the time and if those sentients start moving for even a split sec inside rift then it's game over for limbo. And unlike frost he has no Armor to save his ass in the rift.

And Frost doesnt have to cast one that costs "100" and far more often aswell? Plus why would you not use efficiency mods? Also, why would the sentient start moving and how would you possibly die in that time when we have access to shield gate? Just equip augur message, that way you'll have 1.2 seconds from basic shield gate and then a further 0.3 seconds during/after cataclysm and another 0.3 seconds during/after casting stasis. Not that you need to recast stasis with every cata. Also there is this thing called Rolling Guard incase shield gate and your personal rift isnt enough to keep you alive for that 1 seconds it takes to pump out cata and stasis.

Pretty much cast cata, kill sents, repeat and cast stasis when you have room for it or when it is absolutely needed.

 

[(PSN)TONI__RIBEIRO]

7 hours ago, Cype9k said:

First, DE "fixed" Chroma because people were using him to 1-shot Eidolons back during Plains of Eidolon's release, after years without a single change to him, but now people can do that with just Oberon/Volt/Void Strike.

Then they "fixed" Limbo against Sentinents, saying that "sentients adapt to warframe abilities", even tho stuff like Frost/Nova/Gara/Rhino/Lockdown can stop Battalysts dead in place just fine.

And finally they wanted to remove Khora's Venari/Vazarin's dash healing defense targets, even tho that's been there ever since the Focus tree rework/Khora's release. Granted, they're reverting Khora's changes, but still.

One time is a mistake, two times is a coincidence, three times is a pattern.

You knew this was coming 👆

[GPrime96]

7 hours ago, Cype9k said:

Then they "fixed" Limbo against Sentinents, saying that "sentients adapt to warframe abilities", even tho stuff like Frost/Nova/Gara/Rhino/Lockdown can stop Battalysts dead in place just fine.

While there’s a Frame like Mesa which wrecks any CC’d Sentient in her sight AFAIK in Scarlet Spear.

[Acos]

33 minutes ago, GPrime96 said:

While there’s a Frame like Mesa which wrecks any CC’d Sentient in her sight AFAIK in Scarlet Spear.

I really like Mesa, but she's overhyped and not as useful as a Limbo or a Frost or a Nova or etc. etc. etc. 

It's nice that she can instantly clear the map of enemies but all that really does is present a small window of respite; there's always more enemies on the way. Most players don't really have her built to endure multiple peacemakers and one sneaky boi with a cleaver will still sit her down. 

[minininja77]

8 hours ago, Highresist said:

Cough cough Nova and Mesa. 

Nova maybe but I have seen plenty of S#&$ Mesa that couldnt shot their way out of a paper bag I personally know 2. I know many people complain this is to OP that is to OP but at the end of the day people need to understand no everyone who plays is "elite" some struggle to complete the content. I 100% agree with the Limbo change as he was a cast 2 and 4 and go back to watching netflix. Rhino and Nova at least have to recast way more often. The bigger issue over all is I dont give a damn who you are remove, mesa/nova/frost(who only stops range, conculysts could give a flying #*!% about his bubble) frames and groups wont get past 8-10 rounds on the ground and 2-3 in space as our weapons are either spit ball guns and wet noodles in this event

[Acos]

3 hours ago, trst said:

Sentients already have a broad CC based immunity as diminishing returns on duration based abilities isn't a new mechanic. The Limbo change was a fix in that the resistance didn't apply to Stasis when it should have as it does with all other abilities like it and as such it should be in no way temporary. Also hasn't the projectile interaction been gone since his rework? Pretty sure they go through it like normal and just don't do damage to enemies in the opposite plane.

I figured they did; I haven't interacted with them much until this event. Unless you count Eidolons (I don't). 

AFAIK enemy projectiles have an object limit count which is supposed to end Stasis when 300 objects are suspended. It doesn't affect player weapons anymore. The wiki still states this, at any rate. 

[kevoisvevo]

12 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And Frost doesnt have to cast one that costs "100" and far more often aswell? Plus why would you not use efficiency mods? Also, why would the sentient start moving and how would you possibly die in that time when we have access to shield gate? Just equip augur message, that way you'll have 1.2 seconds from basic shield gate and then a further 0.3 seconds during/after cataclysm and another 0.3 seconds during/after casting stasis. Not that you need to recast stasis with every cata. Also there is this thing called Rolling Guard incase shield gate and your personal rift isnt enough to keep you alive for that 1 seconds it takes to pump out cata and stasis.

Pretty much cast cata, kill sents, repeat and cast stasis when you have room for it or when it is absolutely needed.

 

simple i can't be assed to juggle shield gate recharge time limit and rolling guard here at the same space while 8-10 lvl 150 are walking into the rift and oneshotting me. not without any indicator how long shield gate lasts and i personally find spamming a 100 energy ult stupid. no i don't have space for efficiency mods on my proven limbo builds, didn't need to before DE's nerfs, don't  em now either for all the other factions. that stasis nerf also applies to all future sentients who didn't even touch the bubble. i can understand adapting, but not a hive mind adaptation. it took 2-4 sec just with my 300k+ dps god roll redeemer riven to kill lvl 150 sentient, taking on a bunch of those when they locked for 6-8 sec is a nightmare and nigh impossible without a team, and don't think a team comp can excuse a poor design choice that knee jerk DE made now. doesnt help that one of the spinning sentients can one shot you through rift many times now even when banishing out of the rift plane to normal plane. At the end of the day CC is already gettting shafted as it, from eidolons to fortuna and now this. By this mind set everyone might just bring magus lockdown for some CC and circulate it between dps frames like mesa for every mission.

[MonoDavid]

22 hours ago, at35z said:

They had to nerf Limbo specifically because people have been complaining that he trivializes the event and they found it too easy because of it.

 I think that if DE really cared about frames trivializing content, stuff like Saryn, Mesa, Inaros, Nidus, Octavia, Loki, etc. would be nerfed out of the existence, seeing as they kinda trivialize the entire game pretty much.

[BRZZAFK]

It will always be like this. dev make unresonable and broken ability only to nerf then when something goes wrong on the new content. Because dev not willing to set boundary to player and too lazy to fix the bug and balance issues.Player no longer be able to know which one is bug and which one is feature. 

[SneakyErvin]

8 hours ago, kevoisvevo said:

simple i can't be assed to juggle shield gate recharge time limit and rolling guard here at the same space while 8-10 lvl 150 are walking into the rift and oneshotting me. not without any indicator how long shield gate lasts and i personally find spamming a 100 energy ult stupid. no i don't have space for efficiency mods on my proven limbo builds, didn't need to before DE's nerfs, don't  em now either for all the other factions. that stasis nerf also applies to all future sentients who didn't even touch the bubble. i can understand adapting, but not a hive mind adaptation. it took 2-4 sec just with my 300k+ dps god roll redeemer riven to kill lvl 150 sentient, taking on a bunch of those when they locked for 6-8 sec is a nightmare and nigh impossible without a team, and don't think a team comp can excuse a poor design choice that knee jerk DE made now. doesnt help that one of the spinning sentients can one shot you through rift many times now even when banishing out of the rift plane to normal plane. At the end of the day CC is already gettting shafted as it, from eidolons to fortuna and now this. By this mind set everyone might just bring magus lockdown for some CC and circulate it between dps frames like mesa for every mission.

"Juggle shield gate"? It is just there, long enough to cast 2 abilities, abilties that will last long enough so the gate is there again for the next time.

Why should Limbo be an exception when all other frames are effected by diminishing return or shorter duration versus Sentient and have been since long long long before this event?

[kevoisvevo]

8 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

"Juggle shield gate"? It is just there, long enough to cast 2 abilities, abilties that will last long enough so the gate is there again for the next time.

Why should Limbo be an exception when all other frames are effected by diminishing return or shorter duration versus Sentient and have been since long long long before this event?

And why should DE make a knee jerk reaction and not design a better event? Limbo was doing what he was always good at for 5 years before they thought CC was screwing their new poorly planned event. And by juggling shield gate I meant checking the timer when it's active/non active. You make it should like shield+rolling guard keeps you invincible all the time but you have to properly manage the timer. Doesn't help that when both shield gate and guard are on cooldown so I can be oneshotted in that time. Again limbo's only safe space is that rift. At least many other CC have good Armor and damage reduction like nova, frost, gara.

Edited April 13, 2020 by kevoisvevo

[SneakyErvin]

9 minutes ago, kevoisvevo said:

And why should DE make a knee jerk reaction and not design a better event? Limbo was doing what he was always good at for 5 years before they thought CC was screwing their new poorly planned event. And by juggling shield gate I meant checking the timer when it's active/non active. You make it should like shield+rolling guard keeps you invincible all the time but you have to properly manage the timer. Doesn't help that when both shield gate and guard are on cooldown so I can be oneshotted in that time. Again limbo's only safe space is that rift. At least many other CC have good Armor and damage reduction like nova, frost, gara.

It wasnt a knee jerk reaction since Limbo was obviously not inline with other CC frames versus sentients.

Shield gate is never on cooldown. You need a single point of shields for it to trigger so with augur message you should have 24/7 shield gate when in need of it. If shields drop to zero when cataclysm is canceled you'll have 1.2 seconds of shield gate (since you obviously go from naturally regenerated max), when you recast cataclysm you'll get shields back through message, that gives you a further shield of 0.3 seconds after the first run out followed by another 0.3 seconds when you hit the stasis button. So you should be protected throughout the whole reapplication of cata and stasis. You really dont need to time anything at all.

And if you remove cata early on, you can just tap your dodge to sit in the rift till the sentients get as close as you like in order to cover them all.

Sounds more like you just relied on afkataclysm and stasis without really understanding Limbo or other mechanics fully.

 

[Raqiya]

I'll be honest here All Warframes should be nerfed, massively. With the way it is now many abilities absolutely trivialises gameplay and make other Frames redundant, this needs to change. Khora's Venari nerf was the wrong way to do it but Limbo's change is at least on the right track.