DE's New vs. Reworked Content Dilemma

[HelmetTooTight]

DE has been getting a lot of backlash over the past 2 (maybe 3 depending on your opinion of Scarlet Spear) updates with Liches Railjack. I think one of the most frequent complaints is their incompleteness, or that they do not match what was advertised at Tennocon; people are saying "stop releasing new content and fix existing sh*t (janky forum swear censoring);." I agree with this sentiment, but DE is somewhat at a crossroads here.

If you watch this video at timestamp 16:22 (https://youtu.be/NA5vT1LooXk?t=982) Rebb literally say why they release unbaked content: players will leave in times of content drought. Warframe as a F2P game needs new content to bring in new players as well as retain veterans.

So what's different about Liches/Railjack from PoE/Fortuna? They're all buggy messes on release, but the latter two don't have such a negative connotation, and arguably boosted Warframe's base, while the former two have left a rather bad taste. If this new content is driving away old players and not bringing in new players, should they just continue releasing new sh*tshows? DE is realizing that they might have done goofed here, but I doubt that'll stop them from pushing ahead with new content releases.

So what happens to Railjack and Liches once people are done farming them (if they even bother to start)? Will DE let it rot like Lunaro and PvP? To be frank, I don't know, but I would argue they have an opportunity not to. I believe it is possible for them to fix things in a "new content" manner that can still bring in/retain players. Reworked content does not need to be significantly divorced from new content. DE could completely overhaul Invasions, incorporating Liches, Railjack, and Squad-Link and simply market it as a brand new gamemode (in the same time removing the old Invasions, in effect reworking it). Don't call it Invasions 2.0, call it something different, something new (idk Planetary Incursion? lmao). Reworking new player experience and quests into an actual campaign can be marketed as a fresh update, while still being well received by veterans and new players alike (I won't give a name suggestion because I suck at it, BUT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DON'T JUST CALL IT "New Player Experience: Reworked"). The point is, DE just needs to rework stuff but advertise it correctly; major overhauls should simply be branded as new content so it gets coverage. And the truth is, if done correctly, the reworked content WILL be new content.

I think Jovian Concord is a good example of this done correctly; this is mainly a rework of the Jupiter tileset, with of course some new content (Disruption, Bird Boss). Yet this was a fairly successful update, and received positive online coverage (and I'm hoping Deadlock Protocol will be of the same nature). DE just needs to do the same with Railjack and Liches: fix a bunch of S#&$ and heavily rework or add new gameplay such that it can be promoted as new content.

The heart of this is just marketing. If I'm not a Warframe player and I see some YouTube video that says "Look at all the things DE fixed in Warframe," I probably wouldn't give a flying #*!%. But if I'm not a Warframe player and I see "Warframe's new Planetary Incursion" (or something with a better name) with some clickbaity thumbnail of some ground-breaking reworked Railjack gameplay, I'd be pretty damn interested.  Under the covers, I wouldn't know that Railjack already existed in Warframe and this was a rework of invasions, I would just see some cool ass flying ships blowing S#&$ up. And if I am currently a Warframe player, I would be still be seeing fresh new content that would keep me interested. Warframe is at the point where Railjack (and other situational contexts) has achieved the exact opposite of the breakthrough DE was hoping for (unlike with Open-World) and I would guess this next year's direction with content may likely make or break its popularity. Thanks for reading (and hopefully DE will too, but doubtful).

TL;DR: DE can rework existing content into "new content" by removing and re-releasing a significantly overhauled version so they can appease both veterans while attracting new players.

Edited April 13, 2020 by HelmetTooTight
Seems I didn't make my point clear enough. I wasn't suggesting that DE should stop releasing new content, nor was I suggesting they ignore existing issues with Railjack/Liches. Rather, they should release "new" content aimed at reworking existing systems.

[(XBOX)calvina]

I'm of the mindset that new futher large-scale content drops like the New War and Duviri Paradox should be put on hold so DE can work on refining what they currently have. Of course, despite that Reb said that constant updates are the lifeblood of Warframe, just continuing to release half-baked updates will lose more players in the long run.

As mentioned, overhauling/refining content that already exists will do well to help improve the game, tie liches and railjack into the core game somehow and you got a winner, the bigest issues so far is that they are an island of content that's completely disconnected from the core game from the time being, (Like, most enemies in Railjack doesnt even drop archwing mods, except on rare cases from grineer crew. And you have to go through specific nodes for lich content that often sees you playing said node alone instead of running into randoms.)

So far, the only recent content that I see as positive was the disruption game mode that came with the Jupiter rework.

Edited April 13, 2020 by (XB1)calvina

[Oreades]

IMO the key to solving the balance is to have a more set schedule to address QOL issues than just ya know whenever.

Pick some larger QOL issues and work on them more actively along side the new content. 

I truly feel that more consistency in dealing with long term issues would go a long way towards putting the communities concerns at ease.

Heck maybe even let the community vote on their biggest big ticket fix of that cycle.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Oreades

[trst]

Reworked or polished content just can't bring in or retain players the way new content can though.

Take Liches where DE could take the time to flesh it out and integrate them with Railjack and whatnot but it won't matter for all the players who already finished it or for a lot who already have written the content off. They would need to not just be changed and fixed but be re-released with entirely new content and rewards where at which point they may as well have made something else entirely. It's why reworks to existing things usually only happen when something new related to it is coming be it an event or update.

Thus the best hope Liches have currently is as DE already mentioned before: when they get expanded on with Corpus Liches.

[Unibot]

10 минут назад, trst сказал:

Reworked or polished content just can't bring in or retain players the way new content can though.

Take Liches where DE could take the time to flesh it out and integrate them with Railjack and whatnot but it won't matter for all the players who already finished it or for a lot who already have written the content off. They would need to not just be changed and fixed but be re-released with entirely new content and rewards where at which point they may as well have made something else entirely. It's why reworks to existing things usually only happen when something new related to it is coming be it an event or update.

Thus the best hope Liches have currently is as DE already mentioned before: when they get expanded on with Corpus Liches.

I disagree here. It strongly depends on what they rework. If they rework tilesets, sure its not much interesting for me. But if they expand on gameplay features - then it might be interesting enought to get back in. But as it is - they mostly cut gameplay, not expand it. Or bloat it with new underdeveloped features that get stale fast cause they are undeveloped enought to hold on their own. Bloating gameplay with useless shawzin is not expanding it btw. Archwing is the same thing. Melee is still lackluster compared to slasher type games. They have a room for improvement, thay just don't want to improve. Add new useless stuff, drop time/rng/grind wall, sprinkle it with carrots for players and call it a content and hope people will return. That is what railjack was, that is what liches is and that is what SS still is. They got the skill and got the tools, thay just choose to do it lazy way.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Unibot

[Lakais]

Well, this is a case where the only, horribly painful, option they might have is to bite the bullet on delaying new content that doesn't have a round-about release date. but rebuilding and refining old ones. Nightwave 3 and the Corpus stuff with it is going to come out soonish. Yes, there will be a LOT of backlash in the whole "content drought" argument. There will be a considerable loss of revenue in players leaving because they don't see anything new being added. They're going to have to shelf the entire squad link thing for now to find better ways to link them up. In truth the current version we got really does seem like a WIP stress-test version with placeholder parts. 

But I believe, I hope, that when they get in these big reworks and refinements, that will be what brings back the vets (for a time) and keeps the newer players refreshed. And lets be honest, the press they would get for it would be PHENOMENAL. Say what you want, but if they do that, they will be "The devs who really listened." And that kind of publicity can't be sold short. Especially in this day and age of zealous cynicism.

Now, there is no guarantee that what they change or add will be what all the vocal horn tooters want. But people do their best when they believe in their work and are invested. So while the likelihood of their vision and ours not aligning is high, the hope is that if they actually get to refine the things to where they want, the result will be so much better for it. We can just offer our opinions and feedback, what they do with that is up to them. 

One of the bigger issues with Warframe in the current guise is that it has been a single product. Most other games have had that nuclear option of going for a sequel; a hard reset for everyone and the perfect opportunity to completely rebuild things from a conceptual level. They don't seem to want to take that option so they have to work within the constraints of what has been established. I would love for them to change so many things that would drastically alter the way the game works or would be played. 

I also want people to reconsider their notions that DE is apparently "ruining their game". This is their livelihood! They depend on this as a company. To assume that they have some deliberate purpose to, I don't know, spite some people, is childish. You can think them wrong, you can think them incompetent. In some part you are likely right. But to think them malicious to their own work only shows that it is time to take a break. 

[HelmetTooTight]

1 hour ago, trst said:

They would need to not just be changed and fixed but be re-released with entirely new content and rewards where at which point they may as well have made something else entirely. It's why reworks to existing things usually only happen when something new related to it is coming be it an event or update.

I mean this is exactly what my OP was getting at: the new releases should be trying to be rework things but should be marketed as "new" content. This way you can appease the existing player base while still attracting new players. A new player has no idea about what the sh*tshow Railjack/liches looked like at release; what they see is contingent on what the media demonstrates. Things like hotfixes don't get attention, but a large overhaul advertised correctly would.

1 hour ago, trst said:

Thus the best hope Liches have currently is as DE already mentioned before: when they get expanded on with Corpus Liches.

This is a perfect example: they release a new update with Corpus liches. Let's say in this update, they introduce a bit of new content (the Corpus part of the liches) but then also completely overhaul the Lich hunting experience (not just for the new liches, but also for the current Grineer liches). They remove a lot of the bullsh*t Murmur farming and completely rework the boss fight so it's not just a bullet sponge fiesta. They make the Parazon actually meaningful to the gameplay besides a "stab them 3 times" scenario. Maybe they let Liches take over Assassination nodes on a planet so you can track them down without the anger RNG. This expansion might also integrate Railjack and Invasions, and so it is in essence new content, but in the meantime reworks liches as well as integrating existing systems. This could all be released under some big name title that gains media attention, but the actual meat of the update includes mostly significant overhauls. New players are attracted due to the attention, and veterans are happy with new and better gameplay and a bit of stuff to farm.

52 minutes ago, Lakais said:

Yes, there will be a LOT of backlash in the whole "content drought" argument. There will be a considerable loss of revenue in players leaving because they don't see anything new being added.

My suggestion of blending reworked content with new content can't really fix content drought. It's mostly to address people leaving out of spite due to bad gameplay loops from Railjack/Liches, while still holding the cycle of bringing in new players occasionally with new releases.

I would argue that "content drought' occurs due to core gameplay loops not being "fun" after you have farmed for all of the rewards; instead it feels repetitive. I almost only exclusively play Sorties/Kuva Floods because these are the only missions that "change" (a bit of randomness in game modes/tilesets) while still providing even a miniscule bit of challenge (slightly higher level enemies, Sortie modifiers), and they don't feel grindy because I only do it once or twice a day. I definitely don't think DE is trying to kill their own game, but they seem to have missed the mark on gameplay with Railjack and Liches, and the community is trying to tell them so. Whether or not they listen and fix it is out of my control; I'm only suggesting what I think is best for the game for both old and new players alike.

[Tinklzs]

3 hours ago, trst said:

Reworked or polished content just can't bring in or retain players the way new content can though.

Take Liches where DE could take the time to flesh it out and integrate them with Railjack and whatnot but it won't matter for all the players who already finished it or for a lot who already have written the content off. They would need to not just be changed and fixed but be re-released with entirely new content and rewards where at which point they may as well have made something else entirely. It's why reworks to existing things usually only happen when something new related to it is coming be it an event or update.

Thus the best hope Liches have currently is as DE already mentioned before: when they get expanded on with Corpus Liches.

I disagree. I think DE has the ability to make both better, and the sooner the better. You don't wait months or even years to fix these issues, if you have the time or man power, you technically don't want updates to be released in the states KL/RJ/SS were released in. 

That being said, DE could make KL's more beneficial than just 'collect all the goodies then abandon' like 95% of Warframe's content. Eidolons/Arbitrations/Sorties are about the only thing players do all the time, a small minority continues Profit taker or ESO (random examples) after getting the goodies, and I think that's a flaw in design. By revisiting old content (especially that which is technically still fresh like KL/RJ) they can enhance the appeal for it by adding many requested features, in addition to polishing the rough edges. 

Currently, I couldn't play RJ if I wanted to (stuck in solo mode, bad internet), and it's too tedious by my lonesome for the reward given. If they polish how beefy enemies are, add crew AI, add some different mission types rather than "exterminate" and give some options (like your AI piloting the RJ and you escorting etc.) then it might get somewhere. Not to mention integrating it into other aspects of Warframe, like Invasions. 

Kuva Lich - scaling rewards, decreasing murmur grind and making KL's more of an assassin type rather than a beefy capture target with a breakdance sequence. Would help tremendously, it doesn't need to be done in an hour, but I think one glaring flaw with KL's is, you aren't doing missions for the mission rewards, you're doing them for murmurs for the end goal of the chance to fight the KL to get what they'll drop.  At least in WoW I enjoyed doing the raids whether I got the drops I wanted or not, because it was fun. In my opinion, KL's aren't fun, they're tedious - and for the few moments that the KL DOES show up, that can be interesting, but their limited skillset and spamming of abilities, makes what could be interesting kind of boring.

 

As for new content, I didn't touch kuva liches until after they were in their current state (and many i know haven' t touched them at all), same with RJ. Meaning the idea of new content "being the be all end all" isn't true either. I think it's a delicate balance of adding new content and balancing old/underused content that will help DE in the long run. Instead of getting it to "treading water" and leaving it at that, which is what KL/RJ are currently at, they are 'acceptable' as a prototype idea, but not nearly good enough to be left alone to their own devices, in my opinion. 

 

[TARINunit9]

5 hours ago, HelmetTooTight said:

So what happens to Railjack and Liches once people are done farming them (if they even bother to start)? Will DE let it rot like Lunaro and PvP? 

Railjack is intended to be an entire half of the game going forward. They spent the last two years working on it

So everything in your post after that question? They will have to do that. It's Railjack 2.0 or death for DE

[PookieNumnums]

I love how players act like because a group of people dislike something, everyone does. 

Fact is, only de know how many people actually play their content. Only they can see how many people are doing liches and railjack. X grind for y reward. 

Warframe has ALWAYS had a fair share of doomsayers and complainers. Yet here we are. 

If we werent supporting the game enough they would have found other ways to "improve" the game in areas that generate more revenue. Since they keep doing mostly whatever they want, i think theyre in no dire need for revenue. 

Having expressed that, theyre getting better about listening and addressing concerns that we all have. If they continue down the path of revision i think we can expext the game to become a smooth sphere and less of a dodecohedron. Where now, the elements of the game still feel independent, while in the future maybe all things will seem cohesive and seemless. Well integrated and balanced. 

 

Taking all of that into consideration,  theyll never reach aaa status till they let us keep bunny ears. 

[Tinklzs]

19 minutes ago, PookieNumnums said:

Having expressed that, theyre getting better about listening and addressing concerns that we all have. If they continue down the path of revision i think we can expext the game to become a smooth sphere and less of a dodecohedron.

From my perspective Revision was simply a PR stunt to get some goodwill back for releasing Kuva Liches/Railjack in the state they were in. Many of the changes were long time requests, some of which were in other aspects of the game (like scaling excavator health, in Fortuna nearly 2 years prior). While I realize that sounds jaded, based on how hard they refused to listen for many changes with Kuva liches / Railjack and doing everything they could to keep the time investment at its all-time high, I can' t see revision being anything but a PR stunt.

So for me, having more revisions would be a bad idea, because that means we had to go through a bunch of half released updates to get there. With how SS launched (and still has many issues) that makes me worry a bit for deadlock protocol. 

[MPonder]

19 hours ago, HelmetTooTight said:

Rebb literally say why they release unbaked content: players will leave in times of content drought. Warframe as a F2P game needs new content to bring in new players as well as retain veterans.

Then let the content abondoned full of bugs for years, I'm still been unable to use melee sometimes on Profit-taker and just dying fix it. Eidolons, jesus, I can't even count how many bugs it has for months, maybe years.

Retain veterans by reiterating star chart missions, Genius.

19 hours ago, HelmetTooTight said:

But I doubt that'll stop them from pushing ahead with new content releases.

I doubt that they will not do xit things like Lich again.

"Pushing ahead", plz. Lich were a "retard test" for community, DE saw how community is by defending any xit content they release and tried to "push" beyong that retardness with all that RNG and Grind, no way they didn't knew how bad that xit was/is.

19 hours ago, HelmetTooTight said:

Major overhauls should simply be branded as new content so it gets coverage. And the truth is, if done correctly, the reworked content WILL be new content.

Everything is star ... chart ... missions. Even invasions. what DE change on other "content" of Warframe is that they change enemies Lvls, change rewards and put one or two new units there, BOOM, content!

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by MPonder

[0_The_F00l]

It's not a dilemma it's a consequence of poor resource management. 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

It's not a dilemma it's a consequence of poor resource management. 

IVE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR 3 FRIGGIN YEARS

[LSG501]

IMO new content needs the underlying game to be working properly, something that in most people's opinion is not the case right now.

 

There's also no reason why both can't be done together. 

At the end of the day, it's clear by the constant delays, that DE can't time manage (or their current approach just don't work) or constantly underestimate how much work is required to do what they're 'saying they're going to do' and as such we end up with unbalanced half finished buggy releases like we've been getting of late. 

 

Hopefully the current 'tension' as DE puts it (yeah I know it's a little more than tension) will make them realise that the current approach of releasing a new shiny thing to hide the last release isn't going to work anymore...

And lets be honest, the shield rework etc was more about diverting attention from something else and imo was only done because they had nothing else to use..it's not like nightwave 3 is ready or anything....  They said they'd said they'd been struggling on shields etc for years but were magically able to get something sorted within weeks after the disasterous railjack release which followed on from the poorly designed lich release etc... funny that.

[SneakyErvin]

A big issue is, will reworked content be recieved better than new content though?

We've already seen the "but it is just a revamp" comments when we've had reworked pieces of content or where content has been expanded on. Or with liches, which in their current state is kinda like what people have asked for, which is an "elite" star map with new and better rewards. But when we now have a higher version of the star map with new rewards that suddenly doesnt fly since it wasnt what people imagined liches to be. The comments like "the same old tiles and modes" comes up, but what exactly would an elite version of the star chart be in the first place if not just the same tiles and missions with a higher level and better or more unique rewards.

I get that people want the liches in other parts of the game aswell and think the initial release was bad, so do I, but now they actually fullfill a role people have wanted in the game for quite a while.

[0_The_F00l]

30 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

IVE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR 3 FRIGGIN YEARS

Your caps lock is broken I think,

I can't hear you, you need to scream louder. 

[LSG501]

5 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

A big issue is, will reworked content be recieved better than new content though?

We've already seen the "but it is just a revamp" comments when we've had reworked pieces of content or where content has been expanded on. Or with liches, which in their current state is kinda like what people have asked for, which is an "elite" star map with new and better rewards. But when we now have a higher version of the star map with new rewards that suddenly doesnt fly since it wasnt what people imagined liches to be. The comments like "the same old tiles and modes" comes up, but what exactly would an elite version of the star chart be in the first place if not just the same tiles and missions with a higher level and better or more unique rewards.

I get that people want the liches in other parts of the game aswell and think the initial release was bad, so do I, but now they actually fullfill a role people have wanted in the game for quite a while.

Lets be honest the issue isn't the higher enemies, they're still easy to kill, it's the lich mechanics in general that people don't like. 

I'd still happily have an 'elite' start map with 'better' rewards (not sure what they'd be exactly mind) but the entire process of fighting the lich just isn't enjoyable and to have to repeat the exact same monotonous process 15ish times for all the weapons, more if you want higher stats and ephemera isn't what most people would class as 'fun'.

Having said that some minor improvements to enemy AI probably wouldn't go a miss either, not that I want the game to lose the 'mindless fun' aspect of the game it had when I first started.... I don't come to warframe to think hard while playing it. 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

11 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Your caps lock is broken I think,

I can't hear you, you need to scream louder. 

Oh yeah I forgot ye *inhales  REEEEEREREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[SneakyErvin]

2 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Lets be honest the issue isn't the higher enemies, they're still easy to kill, it's the lich mechanics in general that people don't like. 

I'd still happily have an 'elite' start map with 'better' rewards (not sure what they'd be exactly mind) but the entire process of fighting the lich just isn't enjoyable and to have to repeat the exact same monotonous process 15ish times for all the weapons, more if you want higher stats and ephemera isn't what most people would class as 'fun'.

Having said that some minor improvements to enemy AI probably wouldn't go a miss either, not that I want the game to lose the 'mindless fun' aspect of the game it had when I first started.... I don't come to warframe to think hard while playing it. 

But wouldnt a star map be just the same, a monotonous grind for X item over Y attempts? I really dont see the difference between what people asked for and the lich system (as it is now). I think I have more fun with liches than I would grinding the same defense tile over and over for a new drop on the same star old star chart with a higher level.

[LSG501]

50 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But wouldnt a star map be just the same, a monotonous grind for X item over Y attempts? I really dont see the difference between what people asked for and the lich system (as it is now). I think I have more fun with liches than I would grinding the same defense tile over and over for a new drop on the same star old star chart with a higher level.

I know from my own experience and that of others in my clan that the killing of higher level enemies isn't the issue with liches, in fact they make a nice change of pace having a slightly higher tier of enemy.  But throw in the grind for murmors, which require you to stop killing just for essentially an unskipable kill animation which breaks immersion (ironic seeing as that's what got ash bladestorm changed) and then the time it takes to level up the codes (far too long imo) and it takes away any sort of 'fun' that most of us have been having with it.... and that's ignoring the rng side of the rewards...

[SneakyErvin]

14 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

I know from my own experience and that of others in my clan that the killing of higher level enemies isn't the issue with liches, in fact they make a nice change of pace having a slightly higher tier of enemy.  But throw in the grind for murmors, which require you to stop killing just for essentially an unskipable kill animation which breaks immersion (ironic seeing as that's what got ash bladestorm changed) and then the time it takes to level up the codes (far too long imo) and it takes away any sort of 'fun' that most of us have been having with it.... and that's ignoring the rng side of the rewards...

I could definently live without the kill animation. I get so happy each time it bugs out and you just do a quick stab instead. Other than that I dont have that much of an issue with murmur hunting, since it gives me a nice hoard of relics in the process that can later be turned into nice amounts of bonus kuva while also getting void traces. So all that is a win-win to me. But of course, taste is different from person to person. My biggest letdown with liches is that they are too easy, more so now when they can get afflicted by status effects which opens up for high bonus damage from CO etc.

Currently it feels like a rank 5 lich is easier than a rank 5 nox.

edit: For me lich hunting is a great solo mode.

Edited April 14, 2020 by SneakyErvin

[LSG501]

19 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I could definently live without the kill animation. I get so happy each time it bugs out and you just do a quick stab instead. Other than that I dont have that much of an issue with murmur hunting, since it gives me a nice hoard of relics in the process that can later be turned into nice amounts of bonus kuva while also getting void traces. So all that is a win-win to me. But of course, taste is different from person to person. My biggest letdown with liches is that they are too easy, more so now when they can get afflicted by status effects which opens up for high bonus damage from CO etc.

Currently it feels like a rank 5 lich is easier than a rank 5 nox.

edit: For me lich hunting is a great solo mode.

To be fair I wouldn't mind liches and murmur hunting as much if it was literally you just do missions and you kill lots of enemies and then you can finally unlock the a node with the lich on it (which iirc is closer to the original design previewed at tennocon or wherever).  The entire parazon additions just feels like a forced mechanic just to make liches take longer rather than being an overall beneficial change to the game if I'm being honest, in all honesty I don't see much point in the weapon exilus slot (which just happens to be the wrong polarity in most cases...got to keep pushing forma usage so we buy it I suppose) either. 

I can even live with the loss of rewards, but to be honest apart from it nicking a riven mod from me during a sortie (I have one active that has just sat there for over a month) the losses are hardly anything to write home about for a high mr player.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, LSG501 said:

To be fair I wouldn't mind liches and murmur hunting as much if it was literally you just do missions and you kill lots of enemies and then you can finally unlock the a node with the lich on it (which iirc is closer to the original design previewed at tennocon or wherever).  The entire parazon additions just feels like a forced mechanic just to make liches take longer rather than being an overall beneficial change to the game if I'm being honest, in all honesty I don't see much point in the weapon exilus slot (which just happens to be the wrong polarity in most cases...got to keep pushing forma usage so we buy it I suppose) either. 

I can even live with the loss of rewards, but to be honest apart from it nicking a riven mod from me during a sortie (I have one active that has just sat there for over a month) the losses are hardly anything to write home about for a high mr player.

Honestly, I couldnt agree more. I really want a system where we muck up the lich's mooks and goons, beat the info out of them and then heading to the lair of our "nemesis" to smack, bam, pow, snikt and ratatatata him to pulp. I wouldnt mind if our nemesis would show up during missions where we beat up their henchmen, but it shouldnt be the way we encounter them only and definently not the way we beat them. And yeah, parazon is highly "meh" for me. Too bad we use it for everything now that involves finishers, I prefer seeing a nikana or a pair of venka ripping through the enemy, or having their skull penetrated by the tip of a scythe blade.

The lich system would be much cooler if the objective of the mission also had a far larger impact on murmur gain. Spy missions could give a massive amount that scaled up based on number of rooms we crack, extermination and survival could have a far higher presence of thralls, heck, they could remove exterminate and have those missions be survival instead. they could even implement the kuva design in those missions, where we modify a life support tower to become some form of spy beacon to help us get intel of the lich position, the more we convert the higher the murmur yield at the end. Would fit perfectly with interception and disruption to, the more effective we are the more we get. They could possibly skip interception as a thing and create a lich excavation mode instead where we are hacking into communication arrays used by the lich's forces instead of digging for cryo.

Small small tweaks that could go a long way.

[LSG501]

16 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Small small tweaks that could go a long way.

Yeah it really does feel like the current design for liches has been designed to make it take as long as possible, rather than being about fun, and to hide the overall limited amount of rewards.  Since release DE have done the bare amount possible to make it look like they've made changes without actually changing a lot of the underlying issues or the overall feeling of grind.  They could have reduced the grind and increased the number of weapons (removing the forced 5 forma too imo) so we had more to get instead of more to do for a single reward.

And lets be honest it's not like the actual weapon rewards are going take them long to knock out, it's a few stat changes and applying a skin to an existing model, which shouldn't take more than a few hours tops.