Railjack Revisited (Part 1): Healing Abilities on Objects Feedback Megathread

[Flying_Scorpion]

48 minutes ago, Aisu9 said:

also thanks you soo much for killing varazin, i'm sure you know healing dash is easy enought to hit with 100% accuracy allies how jump here and there, and you just destroy a focus school, guess we'll all stick to zenurick, I cannot wait to see what you'll do to focus with the 3.0, because only zenurik is usefull now.

I think what they did with Vazarin was fine. Invincibility is overpowered and honestly, is the game not easy enough? Powercreep has been a problem in Warframe for awhile so it's nice to see the devs use restraint in buffing or increasing the power levels of the players. I, for one, need a challenge in my game. Otherwise I get bored.

[Tomtommytom]

Protective Dash nerf truly was an absolute overkill, vazarin made it possible for me to play certain warframes in solo arbitrations that do not have an innate mechanic to protect the objective. Now i guess its the usual defense frames only again. Removing invul, or replacing it with a damage reduction buff + lowering the healing wouldve been the reasonable thing to do. Not straight up killing it, please in the future when blatantly nerfing things, give us buffs to other things that make up for it... this is just straight up frustrating, i am not looking forward to my next solo defense arbitration

 

 

[Grim_ReeperS117_2]

i feel like that if the invul of protective dash is removed, radiation friendly fire against objectives should also be looked at.

it was the only thing you could do in rad sorties against trolls (or accidents).

[Flying_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, Leuca said:

Am I the only person who doesn't think this is awful? That maybe we should have to put effort into the game again? I'm genuinely confused by the immediate backlash.

i think you make a really good point. I've been complaining about a lack of difficulty in the game for a long time now. Even though this makes it easier for us to do defense missions, I still like this change because it opens things up to more variety of gameplay. Previously, the only way to do defense mission was to A) Prevent it from taking any damage (so garuda, frost, volt, etc). And B) Kill enemies very fast. Now this opens up a different way to play C) Healing and D) Damage reduction. You're right, it makes things more forgiving, but at the same time, it makes more warframes than ever actually viable choices for long duration defense missions. They can still make it more challenging by introducing more elements but for me, I think it just makes sense intuitively for a healing/support warframe to be able to have an impact on the defense objective. I welcome this change, but brother, believe me, I'm totally with you when it comes to a lack of difficulty in this game. I hope DE can do something for those of us who are at the end game and find everything to be easy-breasy mind-numbingly trivial. 

[eboomer]

How are you so out of touch?  Prior to this update, some healing abilities WERE strong enough that they could be a viable alternative to damage blocking (Limbo and weaker options).  This update makes healing and damage reduction so anemic at higher levels that it may as well do literally nothing.  And there's basically no point in healing warframes given that magus repair etc exist.  So there's now zero point in runing a frame for it's healing, outside of an arbitration mission due to how punishing a warframe death is.

With this update, the only viable option to defend something is to ensure no damage can be done by the enemy, so either REALLY strong crowd control, nuking frames, or damage blocking like Limbo, Frost, etc.  This update is horrible for game balance and team comp diversity.

[Flying_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, Aisu9 said:

500(flat value) over 5 second is NOT the way healing should work on objectives... remember damage scale with level ? because at some point 100hp/s do nothing. you should bump any flat value health over x second to % value health over x second

That's the point - the point is for late game content to be challenging and unforgiving. If everything scaled to late game content, then late game content would be trivially easy - just like early game content. This decision of DE was obviously made as a balancing decision. Why complain? You're getting healing on objectives, something that didn't even exist before (aside from Vazarin dash and Khora). This is a buff, and a decrease in difficulty. I think it's fine. 

[Tomtommytom]

Gerade eben schrieb Flying_Scorpion:

i think you make a really good point. I've been complaining about a lack of difficulty in the game for a long time now. Even though this makes it easier for us to do defense missions, I still like this change because it opens things up to more variety of gameplay. Previously, the only way to do defense mission was to A) Prevent it from taking any damage (so garuda, frost, volt, etc). And B) Kill enemies very fast. Now this opens up a different way to play C) Healing and D) Damage reduction. You're right, it makes things more forgiving, but at the same time, it makes more warframes than ever actually viable choices for long duration defense missions. They can still make it more challenging by introducing more elements but for me, I think it just makes sense intuitively for a healing/support warframe to be able to have an impact on the defense objective. I welcome this change, but brother, believe me, I'm totally with you when it comes to a lack of difficulty in this game. I hope DE can do something for those of us who are at the end game and find everything to be easy-breasy mind-numbingly trivial. 

Yeah, agreed, even though i think difficulty achieved by taking things away that people had before, does not feel the same as difficulty through new challenges. It feels less like overcoming a new challenge and more like being handicapped. Of course i am not saying you should never nerf stuff, just blatantly taking things away like that without compensation feels cheap. I am also not against a meta and frames, but in this specific example, the operator did make up for the inability of defending or protecting the objective and make up for that with the utility, if not for that, what is the operator supposed to be? i dont like the operator to just be a stronger energy siphon

[taiiat]

could some of these Abilities do things that are more akin to what they normally do? ala Heal in a way that is closer to their normal mechanics:

• Blessing: Heal for 5% over 5 seconds? that's 1%/second even if you kept it permanently active, after all.
• Mend: Heal for 5-10% of what it would normally Heal an Ally for over 5 seconds?
  • so rather than a flat 500, 5-10% of whatever the divided share would have been if the Objective was a Player or Companion.
  • also Mend is not based on Player Damage, we can't gain more Health than the Enemies have in Health.
• Protective Dash: Heal for.... some sort of Percentage? even if that's like 5% over 15 seconds or something.
• Curative Undertow: Heal for... 1%?
• i don't really understand the 'flavor' reason as to why Blood Siphon ""shouldn't work"". Cryopods and Excavators are fairly easy game since they don't move sure(provided you move an Enemy close to the Objective and then skewer it), but it would be pretty disadvantaged for NPC Defense, not exactly super powerful.
  • you could just apply the normal effect but at a much reduced magnitude.
• Sancti Magistar: this one does get troublesome but.... there has to be a way to keep the Mechanics consistent but still give numbers that are within reason.
• Capacitance: is that..... 250 Shields per Cast? the entire point of Capacitance is that it continues generating over time since the Ability deals Damage over time, and allows for Overshields. that will encourage Players to Cast it as often as possible, since the Duration related aspects of the Ability are just turned off here.

overall, the problem is mainly that you're changing the mechanics of these functions for Objectives. Warframe doing what it always does best, randomly change the rules.
there's absolutely ways to give reasonable values to all of these Mechanics that make an actual impact without breaking stuff. you're not scaling these for balance, you're changing the rules because reasons.

 

especially since you then have the gall to have some of these Abilities Heal for 50/sec unchanged, meaning that they will Heal for hundreds/sec unchanged, without doing anything active at all. with identical Mechanics.
what sort of double standards is that. not even consistently inconsistent.

 

 

Video. Games. are. supposed. to. be. a. rule set. that. everything. then. abides. by.
you establish rules and then it is up to Players to apply those Rules in the various scenarios that they are tasked with.
and just like always, how is a Player supposed to know the rules and apply them, if they're different anytime and anywhere they do something.
it's really not that complicated, just respect the Players instead of insulting them by flinging the rules about willy nilly.

[Leuca]

1 hour ago, 1st-1 said:

Don't need someone like you to tell me how missions work, have you ever done a defense above lvl 30 for more than 10minutes ?

DE tells us they want to give players more choice, variety, now they force us to play defensive frames

and we never asked to be able to just dash in objectiv and full heal it, just give us OPTIONS !

but yeah, keep thinking u're an exception.

Someone like me? lol what

Level 30? Yes, I have done something like that for more than 10 minutes. If you go in with frames that do well in a defense mission it's not really that much of an issue until much later, and I wouldn't consider myself a hardcore minmaxer.

And yes, sometimes some frames are better suited for certain mission types than others; that's how it works. Right now your response came across as asking to get the same results with frames that are not as optimal for defense missions, which is obviously not going to happen. If you want to defend something, then pick something that is good at defending.

You do have options, unless in your rush to give a snide reply you completely skimmed over the list of healing abilities/damage reduction abilities that now apply to the defense objective.

[BlackCat500]

Percentage heals would be nice, but they can definitely stay on the lower end. Defending an objective means protecting it from harm, not keeping it barely alive by trying to outheal the damage dealt to it. Remember guys, if you make heals too powerful you completely invalidate the one point defensive frames have. I think a healthy mix of both worlds is not wrong.

[Uan91]

Hello, I'm not going to ask why did you decide to kill Vazarin, instead:

Why did you decide Zenurik is the only school that we should use? 

A reason to rework all the focus system?

For the Lulz&memes?(Yeah, we know too well you all are good at memes)

Having fun ignoring players feedback?

These changes after the suggestions in the dev workshops are totally unnecessary.

Why are you even creating this thread if you are ignoring it anyway?

 

 

[Leuca]

34 minutes ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

i think you make a really good point. I've been complaining about a lack of difficulty in the game for a long time now. Even though this makes it easier for us to do defense missions, I still like this change because it opens things up to more variety of gameplay. Previously, the only way to do defense mission was to A) Prevent it from taking any damage (so garuda, frost, volt, etc). And B) Kill enemies very fast. Now this opens up a different way to play C) Healing and D) Damage reduction. You're right, it makes things more forgiving, but at the same time, it makes more warframes than ever actually viable choices for long duration defense missions. They can still make it more challenging by introducing more elements but for me, I think it just makes sense intuitively for a healing/support warframe to be able to have an impact on the defense objective. I welcome this change, but brother, believe me, I'm totally with you when it comes to a lack of difficulty in this game. I hope DE can do something for those of us who are at the end game and find everything to be easy-breasy mind-numbingly trivial. 

I think some of the numbers could stand to be tweaked to be larger/have longer durations/stack with each other in some capacity to make abilities feel like they aren't a waste of energy, but ultimately there needs to be a clear line between what counts as "defending" and what doesn't. Spamming Vazarin dashes to make up for damage you didn't prevent while you were focusing on nuking the map is the most eye-roll-inducing thing in defense nodes.

[xXDeadsinxX]

Why ask for feedback and then push the update out without said feedback, and still ask for feedback after the update? It’s frustrating to see since you’ve done this multiple times now and doesn’t make much sense.

All that aside though, I’m not sure why Vazarin was nerfed. You say you want Warframe as a power fantasy (which entails being powerful as can be) but you start nerfing things, which is Vazarin in this case. Why? If you consider Vazarin trivializing certain content, then why wouldn’t you nerf everything else that trivializes content as well? You could even change the way certain content is designed before hand so that it can’t be trivialized by a certain item or equipment. That would certainly be difficult to do since there’s a lot of things in this game that can trivialize content.

At the end of the day though, if you are considering in wanting challenge in Warframe then nerfing everything in the game is the right way to go so we’re not insanely powerful and can defeat everything easily. However, if you don’t mind players trivializing content and having no real challenge in Warframe, then leave Vazarin and everything OP in the game as it is. Simple as that.

[selig_fay]

Nezha - Warding Halo doesn't work for objects that it didn't work for before. According to the description, we should now be able to overlay halos on objects, but this is not happening.

At the same time, Titania has always affected objects, why is it written that it does not?

In any case, we were left with no choice but to take frost for long defenses.

[Lorelei]

Vazarin released without any changes despite the torrent of feedback. I'm incredibly disappointed and not at all surprised.

 

Edit: as a matter of fact, the biggest change between the workshop a month ago and the patch notes is "behaviour" to "behavior."  What was the point of collecting a month of feedback if none of it was going to be considered? 

[SupremeEvilDeathLord]

So, i'm sure i'm stating the obvious by now, but Vazarin was brutally murdered by this change. I agree, it trivialised defense missions before, but now it is utterly useless for defending objectives, a flat number is never good when we are talking about hundreds of thousands of health here. My suggestion would be something like: 50% damage reduction (maybe a bit lower, but not too low) and a 10% to 15% heal (can't stack) over time for the objective, this way it isn't broken, but can work. 

[(PSN)Maunstre]

DE, you had pages and pages of feedback regarding Vazarin's nerf the first time you suggested it, did you read none of it?

Nerfing Vazarin this way removes the option of choice for players. Vazarin allowed players to choose not just a defense-oriented frame to play Defense. This nerf means that a player, especially a solo one, now must go with either Gara, Frost, or Limbo to effectively play defense instead of being able to take any risks and experiment. As much as I love playing Limbo, this sort of hamstringing is ridiculous. You are telling us how we should play the game instead of letting us have the choice of playing it how we want. Arguably, this won't matter much since outside of Arbies there is no endless mode that is worth going past 20 waves or 20 minutes. Is your goal to tell us not to play endless defense endlessly?

500 hp over 5 seconds is a useless stat. At higher levels, a defense-target's innate regeneration outstrips this by a colossal margin. Defense targets have HP that cross into the 10,000s and higher on even lower-level nodes. If you're so concerned over Protective Dash "trivialising" content, then reduce the % to something less overpowered than 60% and remove the invulnerability. I'm pretty sure most players would be happy with something like 30% or even 25%. A % allows the ability to SCALE with enemy / mission level!

Stop taking our ability to choose away from us. Focus is already a joke of a mechanic, and you are making it worse by further clipping out any general utility 4/5 of the schools even have. This change will only solidify Zenurik as the sole worthwhile focus school. I want the focus I dumped into Vazarin refunded if this change gets pushed through, thanks.

[T-Shark69]

1 hour ago, Grim_ReeperS117_2 said:

it was the only thing you could do in rad sorties against trolls (or accidents).

This begs the question, does this apply to static objectives only or do the changes affect wandering operatives like the sorties and arbie defense?

Because if it applies to operatives too, then the people saying these numbers are fine clearly haven't had their arbie objective get one-shot through 44K hp by a Yeeting Ancient.

 

Quote

NUMBERS ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE, the purpose of this post is to communicate our intentions.

Spoiler

The Lotus deceived us once again.

 

[selig_fay]

4 minutes ago, T-Shark69 said:

This begs the question, does this apply to static objectives only or do the changes affect wandering operatives like the sorties and arbie defense?

Because if it applies to operatives too, then the people saying these numbers are fine clearly haven't had their arbie objective get one-shot through 44K hp by a Yeeting Ancient.

I just checked it out. Vazarin's invulnerability still affects the arbitrage operatives.

[(XBOX)Duke DEFCON]

2 hours ago, Aisu9 said:

also thanks you soo much for killing varazin, i'm sure you know healing dash is easy enought to hit with 100% accuracy allies how jump here and there, and you just destroy a focus school, guess we'll all stick to zenurick, I cannot wait to see what you'll do to focus with the 3.0, because only zenurik is usefull now.

Uh, Vazarin is not "destroyed". This healing amount only applies to defense targets. The dash is every bit as powerful on friendly warframes.

[T-Shark69]

6 minutes ago, zhellon said:

I just checked it out. Vazarin's invulnerability still affects the arbitrage operatives.

Aight, Lich missions and alerts are the only issue then. Am i missing anything?

[Revanx]

RIP vazarin

[selig_fay]

3 minutes ago, T-Shark69 said:

Aight, Lich missions and alerts are the only issued then. Am i missing anything?

I just think it doesn't apply to an operative because it's not considered an object. Either this is intended, or it's a bug.

But arbitration excavation will suffer from this.

[PeachiePeach]

My girl Garuda was done dirty again

[csaszar]

Healing turned to be a joke.

You were warned that the numbers are wrong. We said it wont work. Still you gone with flat numbers and killed Vazarin fro good.

Just came from an excavation a wisp with arbitration bonus could not heal enough to the def target to be simply NOTICABLE. Its not about trivializing anything - right now its not even noticeable. The frikkin health bar didnt even move. But at least Vazarin is useless now so you should be proud.

Good work, keep it up and even your most fanatic players will leave.

This is a shame.