Railjack Revisited (Part 1): Healing Abilities on Objects Feedback Megathread

[Drachnyn]

Why even say "numbers are subject to change" if they were clearly final. Flat heals for the defense targets mean nothing. No variety in damage reduction either so just a nerf for gara, vazarin and sancti magistar. You are very much enforcing the perfect defense even harder instead of giving options. Dont bother opening workshop posts for reponses if you'll just ignore any and all feedback about it, atleast that would be more honest.

[lesstalkmorerokk]

What was the point of the feedback thread if you aren't going to listen to any feedback? Everyone overwhelmingly agreed that Vazarin's protective dash needed either more healing, or at least some damage reduction. Despite all that feedback, zero changes were made. Frost and Limbo are now more mandatory than ever.

Guess we're all going back to the Zenurik focus school, because it's literally the only useful one left.

[selig_fay]

By the way, were these changes checked on the test server? Maybe it's OK according to the reviews of 3 people or something like this? Because I can see that the system is not fully working.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

Wisp's Vitality Mote does NOT apply to Excavators (though works perfectly on Def Targets and Kuva Harvesters, good job, DE! a nice chage)

I didn't even bother farming Vazarin  Protection and never used it but 500 over 3s sounds very weak, even my Wisp with "333-build" can place a mote that gives +999 max hp and heals 99 hp/s (place and forget, no more actions required), I feel for the Vazarin fellas

[Scrylite]

1 minute ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

Wisp's Vitality Mote does NOT apply to Excavators (though works perfectly on Def Targets and Kuva Harvesters, good job, DE! a nice chage)

I didn't even bother farming Vazarin  Protection and never used it but 500 over 3s sounds very weak, even my Wisp with "333-build" can place a mote that gives +999 max hp and heals 99 hp/s (place and forget, no more actions required), I feel for the Vazarin fellas

This is so true its not even funny. Hours of focus, vs even unmodded warframe abilities is laughable.

[Nicaris]

I just wanted to drop in and say one thing:

After 6 years of playing Warframe, my favorite thing about this game is the ability to combine different Warframe abilities together using teamwork to accomplish goals in new and different ways. Players seem to have lost sight of that over the past few years.

Lately, most new events, operations, and bosses, are heavily team based... yes... BUT they lend themselves to only a select few strategies. (Take Eidolons for example. Most people play the same select Warframes with the same select abilities and weapons. No one has a reason to branch out and be creative, because why would they?)

Players need a reason to FORGET THE META and BE CREATIVE and INVENTIVE INSTEAD.

This healing update is exactly the direction that will help this come to fruition. More options to protect, allowing for more options with offence. I LOVE IT.

DE, you have always been exceptional at finding comfortable balances for weapons, damage, and even warframe ability synergy. How about we balance the Warframes altogether?

I just say, NO MORE META its killing this game.

[MrJxt]

At least provide 50% damage reduction to Vazarin - Protective Dash for 5 seconds.

 

[captainHalide]

You really shouldn't just blanket-drop operator powers down to the levels of starter warframe abilities.  The time and resource costs alone are far higher, and the opportunity costs are astronomically different.  A clumy-to-use single-target heal for Vazarin falls pretty short of Madurai's limitless bonus damage, Zenurik's 150 free energy on command, or Naramon's enormous boost to melee combo stacks with mods like blood rush and weeping wounds.  I'd mention Unairu, but nothing in Unairu is any good if we're being honest. It also takes a lot more time to pick up the means to farm enough focus for protective dash than it does to get a sancti magistar or farm trinity.

This also robs late-game players of a means for healing objectives in sortie, kuva lich and some high-end nightmare missions, as 500 HP means nothing to health pools in the tens of thousands being gunned by enemies who individually deal hundreds of damage per second.  Limbo will now be a colossal component of the meta in these runs in order to make these objectives invincible and the enemies ignorable, and we saw how much you guys enjoyed that with scarlet spear.

[Scrylite]

Hmm didn't warframes get shield gating recently from protection against one-shots? Its almost like dmg can exceed a tenno's health and shield total from a single unit, which is definitely more than 500hp... And that's from one unit.

[ShirakawaNaoya]

3 hours ago, Leuca said:

I thought the whole objective of defense was to defend it, not power your heals through damage that your squad is letting through.

Given that, they blatantly increased our ability to reduce damage even more than we were able to beforehand, and once you've scaled high enough for % heals to matter even a small % of health per second is going to be absolutely massive for basically no effort.

Am I the only person who doesn't think this is awful? That maybe we should have to put effort into the game again? I'm genuinely confused by the immediate backlash.

The problem arise on scaling mission and high level defense where damages from enemies making the school be considered non-existent. Flat figure should never have any role or even considered when there is scaling mechanic involved and in addition should the figure can goes beyond four digits. Percentage based have to enter the game beyond this point for better balance.

Aside from that it also further limiting or force some of the choice and variety arsenal tendered on plate. The very obvious example; using non-defense frame in defense mission with Vazarin as a backup in case brownies hit the fan is no longer a viable alternative option if your only available defense frame is still cooking in the forge or still in infancy or recently forma-ed. Let's not even think how the lone wolfies will go about this one. Frames like Limbo will become absolute Meta in non-sentient/non-nullifier area.

As many Tenno has pointed out, it is best for healing (not just for Vazarin) be percentage based. Also to add, respec should be given to player when changes made is very severe. It is a slap in the face to all users affected that spent long time invested on the school. Let them use the focus point elsewhere (which i can bet all will goes to Zenurik at this point.)

[Snackrat]

Adding more forms of damage reduction (at reduced effectiveness) is good! 50% seems like a good spot, it isn't so strong it trivialises but it is definitely relevant. And it's good that the dialogue has been opened on providing support for defence other than just walls, seeing as wall frames are very passive to play, and also hover dangerously close to the chopping block if they do too well.

However, the healing is genuinely terrible, so small it is functionally useless. You may as well have just disabled all healing on the objective completely. The Venn diagram of the difficulty the defence target might even need the healing, and the difficulty at which the healing would be even slightly useful, are two separate circles miles apart. At this point, we're capable of healing a defence target that the enemies are too weak to really damage, and that's it. The only levels that would benefit from this change are so low that the new players playing them don't have access to many of these forms of healing anyway. The only impact this has is putting Vazarin on death row; there's no reason to use it unless you'd just hit Second Dream and didn't know any better. Especially since the invulnerability wasn't at least converted into 50% DR.

Either percentage or scaling formula needs to enter this somewhere, as well as a flat increase. If you don't want these abilities trivialising new player content, then they definitely need to be either percentage or scaling. Even if it was just 'eg: 500 or 10% over 5 seconds, whichever is higher'. 2% a second is still extraordinarily little, so we're still going to have to stack wall frames. But at least it does something functional. And perhaps allow different instances of abilities to stack, as well.

And if Vazarin's dash isn't going to be made useful for defence, and you think the old operation was unhealthy for gameplay, then it should be compensated with a buff for relevancy elsewhere. It's sort of the Trinity of focus, so something like buffing aura effectiveness, perhaps. Or providing flat armour that affects frames as well, making it possibly relevant for squishies.

[Ramrr]

Did you even bother reading community feedback regarding healing abilities workshop? 22 pages of people questioning your redesign of Vazarin.

Please increase viability of Vazarin Protective dash on defense targets by turning it to % based heal over time, 20% over 5 seconds or 10% over 5 seconds with flat 50% damage reduction.

[Creche472b]

A focus respec needs to be offered for Vazarin due to this change.

Also, the descriptive text on Protective Dash should clearly state that the effect is different for defense targets.

 

Very disappointed by this change. Vazarin was fun to play because I could save the day with healing. Now, I'm just another wimpy operator...

[Terron_11]

Hello everyone!

Personal feeling. Not ENOUGH! 

The direction is correct. So that different warframes can, if not protect, then cure the target of protection. 

But the amount of recoverable strength is so small that after a couple of hits of enemies of 30+ levels, you have to make up for a considerable time.

This is a return to the past, when you had to kick and distract the last enemy of the wave to allow time to recover the defense goals.

This DOESN't make warframe healers any more relevant than limbo or frost. This makes them + / - useless. The Vasari school won't save you at high levels now either.

 

There is an offer(probably one of hundreds similar from above and below).

Healing in many ways is great. It is desirable that everyone who can be treated should be treated. Even consumables. BUT! Limit the percentage of the current heal. And that's debatable. After all, not many warframes can restore thousands of health units. Nidus and his 20 a second crying with a company of the same deprived. That is, someone should be left in full. And someone really limit.

Sorry for the Google translation.

[SyBuhr]

These changes are awful. I did some number gathering, and while it's a small pool, the indication is not great.

For starts, let's break down the most healing possible, Vazarin dash or Trinity Blessing. 500 HP over 5 seconds.

Let's then understand how much HP a Defense objective has per based on tier:

1. At level 12-17, 9680 HP. 500 HP over 5 seconds (assuming you get the full heal) equates to 5.17% health restored.
2. At level 21-26, 20750 HP. 2.40% Health restored.
3. At level 30-40, 47630 HP. 1.05% Health restored.

Do we see the problem here? The amount of health restored is completely negligible even at level 12. The healing cannot stack either, so you are effectively capped at this measly amount that enemies will burst through with ease. Level 30-40 is not hard by any means, but once you start going for long endurance runs, you can completely forget about healing the objective.

These changes clearly were not play-tested, nor were they well-thought out. They are knee-jerk changes made due to a grind-fest of an event.

The health restored should be capped, sure. But make it tolerable, or at least not pointless. Cap the healing at a percentage rather than a flat number that won't scale. By doing it the way it currently is, you all are promoting is less frame diversity in team compositions.

I did the numbers for Excavation, which are much better (at Tier 3, you can expect a 9.91% Heal from the 500, this decreases however the longer spent in the mission) but are still very much negligible due to their small Health pool to begin with.

I have not tested Lure HP, but I am dreading to even do so.

[TuxedoCatfish]

These numbers are a joke and will do nothing to stop the primacy of bubble frames, or to make defense/escort missions less of a slog overall.

I am admittedly grateful that Nidus will be able to heal objectives while solo (I think? the changelog is confusingly written) but you really need to go back to the drawing board on those numbers.

[TheLexiConArtist]

How about for feedback, you go read the entire Dev Workshop thread where we told you in advance?

This is ridiculous. Not a single shred of player feedback considered for this.

 

50% Damage Reduction = practically irrelevant, especially if non-stacking with similar buffs(?).

100 static, unstacking HPS = not good enough to go anywhere beyond star chart level. Percentages required.

Vazarin Protective Dash = obliterated and useless, it was fine as an alternative to allow ANY non-defense frame to have a 'backup option' the way it was.

[vanaukas]

"Further feedback"

Dude, it's the same feedback that the DEV team dismissed. You all won't get any new feedback besides angry reactions for the flat numbers on healing and vazarin being destroyed on the sakes of "balance". Yes, it needed balance, but now is literally useless. It doesn't even have damage reduction. 

Maybe the only new feedback would be "Not every people in game reads the forums and they should know those changes on healing in game rather than outside", but this is a so long issue that I won't bother further more. Everything else has been said countless of times in this thread, on the thread I quoted and the update thread from today. 

[IggySnow]

Why are you giving us flat values, in a game that is ALWAYS scaling? This is a lesson you guys at DE have learned how many times now? yet you still put flat values into the game.

The reason why flat values are fine for warframes is because warframes have a capped health pool. If you go to a level 20 defence mission, then yeah 500 ever 5 sec is fine, But go to a level 100 defence mission where the defence objective has 50k hp and now you are doing basically nothing.

even if the cap was 1% every second it would be better than this!

[ScytodiDaedalus]

Regarding Vazarin's Protective Dash:

I understand the reasons why effectively towards defense objectives this thing was nerfed to the ground. I understand the absolute discontent towards the change since it virtually destroys the most popular use people had for it.

However, I do not believe it didn't have to be nerfed, but I think it was too extreme. The problem resides on something very simple, back then it was too good, now it's just too bad and unuseful.

It just needs to find a form of middle ground, give it 10% to 20% healing at most, maybe remove or greatly reduce the invulnerability period, it shouldn't be on the same level as Warframe abilities, since this is more "late" in the game for players to access, it is by all means unfair that it doesn't do as much or even less if it's something that takes a lot more time to access.

Everything else seems to be fine to me.

[SyBuhr]

5 minutes ago, HerpDerpy said:

Why are you giving us flat values, in a game that is ALWAYS scaling? This is a lesson you guys at DE have learned how many times now? yet you still put flat values into the game.

The reason why flat values are fine for warframes is because warframes have a capped health pool. If you go to a level 20 defence mission, then yeah 500 ever 5 sec is fine, But go to a level 100 defence mission where the defence objective has 50k hp and now you are doing basically nothing.

even if the cap was 1% every second it would be better than this!

Careful, you are already getting ~1% every 5 seconds already at least at level 30-40. 😛

 

The problem is that, they need to cap the percentage healed every second, rather than cap it to a flat value. For instance, Trinity and the Vazarin dash should heal a percentage over time that does not stack. In addition to this, when multiple frames utilize healing on the same objective, it should take those heals into consideration to a maximum value.

If an oberon and a wisp heal the objective, it should take those values and combine to a maximum per second. If the trinity (for whatever reason) comes into play, it should cap out at a maximum percentage per second. This would punish players who seek to over-heal the objective and not properly defending it, while allowing multiple support frames to actually be relevant. Wisp, Oberon, and other frames that heal a flat amount should also be considered to heal a percentage of the Objective (although carefully, as frames like wisp can indefinitely heal the objective in this case).

For instance, the max Percent Cap probably should be around 15% of the HP healed a second. Meaning if I and a bunch of others start using healing on the objective, it will only go to a maximum of 15%. This would allow healing the objective be a team-effort rather than simplifying the problem to oblivion like the Developers did (which is simply to not allow the objective to get hit, which thus goes against their Diverse Playstyle Philosophy they introduced on the Itzal).

[Zyga21]

@[DE]Bear
How does the damage reduction work with Ancient healers? do they keep their 90% DR aura on defense objectives?

Do these stack with each other, or is DR just capped at a flat 50%?

Do the heals stack with other frames? Like if we have a Wisp, Oberon, Trinity, Equinox, Khora, Vaz dash, Sancti magistar, will they all stack with each other (just not themselves)?

And lastly; it's unclear if Titania's heal will be passing over, other things have it marked as "Fine as is, will inherit this behavior. " or "Fine as is (no effect)", while she just has "fine as is" with as is being "on live does nothing"

 

If these all stack that's a big buff and thanks for that, if these don't stack.... Then I imagine things like arbitrations will be a lot worse.

[Booty_Souffle]

Great to see all the changes, but I didn't see my main girl Mag in the patchnotes. Was excluding her Polarize and Crush abilities' shield effects a conscious decision or oversight? Regardless, thanks for the update, great changes. 

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

@[DE]Bear,

I have talked to you on these forums and in person, and found you to be a great guy. That's why I am prefacing my feedback: I don't want you to take any of this personally. Instead, I want you to take this to the people who made these decisions, and let them know exactly how I, and many others in this community, feel. I don't want them to get the filtered version; I want them to know exactly how it is.

 

To the DE employee(s) who made these changes:

WHAT WERE YOU THINKING? In every single ability rework in the last year you either added an ability that scales or an ability that stacks on itself (Nyx's Mind Control scales with weapon damage, Ember's abilities scale with her heat level and stack together, Vauban's Nail Grenade scales based on enemy level, Grendel's 4 scales with enemies eaten, Gauss's abilities scale with his battery and Thermal Sunder stacks with itself, etc.). But when it comes to keeping NPC objects alive, you do the exact opposite. WHY?

Not only that, but you decided to take away all forms of invulnerability (understandable) without even giving DR as a replacement (???). All that this update has done is made Limbo the [DE] facto (pun intended) frame for all forms of defense, and removed the last remaining reason to use a focus school other than Zenuric outside of role-playing. Harrow's Covenant and Vazarin's Protective Dash could have both been allowed to give 50% DR to NPC's for their duration, same as all of the other abilities you changed to give 50% DR. But you didn't. Again, WHY?

Overall, I, and many others in the community based on the discussions I have seen in Discord servers and in group chats I am a part of, are very disappointed. You started this as a way to make up for mistakenly calling Khora's base behavior an 'exploit', and now you have simply spat in our faces a second time as an 'apology' for the first time. We gave you extensive feedback regarding this when you put out the workshop, and you changed absolutely nothing between then and now.

Now, there are a few things I think were oversights and not intentional: Titania's new passive does not affect objectives, even though it probably should. (EDIT: I noticed this change after making my post. Thank you.) Rejuvenation aura heals objectives, but Physique does not increase base health. I don't hold these against you, but I would like to see them addressed.

Thank you for you continued work on this game. I hope that you can provide good updates on the foundation you have laid with this.

[selig_fay]

10 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Titania's new passive does not affect objectives, even though it probably should

I would be more happy if it healed butterflies that have 360 HP and 5K + armor than objects that have 70K + HP and 0 armor. I'm even afraid to imagine how much I will heal an object with 3hps.