The Glassmaker puzzle is good, just poorly-explained

[Mephane]

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

• Expand the blurb when confirming to enter the quiz minigame to indicate that the player will be tested on their knowledge of the crime scene. This should allow players to prepare accordingly before committing and expending currency.
• Either remove the movement restrictions in the quiz minigame, or have accidental falls bring the player back to the main platform, instead of ending the quiz then and there.
• Add a timer on the main Orbiter console indicating the next glass resonance wave, and have the investigation blurb give proper details on how these waves generate Cephalites for the player to kill.

* Consume cephalite only on successful completion of the puzzle.

[(PSN)grayhyh]

Kinda expected tbh,DE sucks at making the player understand wtf they are doing so they have to search on the tube alot or just trial and error/experimentation through it till u realize how to do the thing.

Thats like one of the most major issues bout WF but de will never make it better so meh,time to wipe out all of my 384 warframe youtube searches LOL.

[Felsagger]

19 minutes ago, Talinthis said:

i dont really count builds or things like that on the same page as basic mechanics on what is going on when new content is introduced. for example, for this stuff it is extremely easy to  have a single pop up message before you enter with a message such as "You will be asked questions based on the evidence you found and will need to answer correctly. fragments will be consumed even if you fail" viola.

it still always blows my mind when they forget basic common sense quality of life additions that should have been in place before you even finish writing. It happens every time, but man that is the most important and basic part of any game.

 

 

Johnathan Blow has an amazing discussion on such topic. Does the developer needs to do much hand holding helping players cross the street? When is adequate and when is enough? if we do not allow the possibility of failure then we are excluding the satisfaction when success happens. Yes, documentation could happen in a witty way without holding the player by the hand too much. If I watch a youtube video the probabilities of failure will be much less.

What you are talking about is commodity. Does the developer needs to be generous all the time?  

[(PSN)robotwars7]

well, after doing the first "investigation" today, i'd say it mainly comes down to memory:

before I ran the test, I went through to where all the eveidence I found was and looked at it again: I learned that the clues are randomized, so i memorized what i was given: a Golden Sword, an Ayatan with a upside down Cross, the Word "Transducer", an image of Baro Ki'Teer, and the name Kaleem.

Sword, cross, Transducer, Baro, Kaleem.. I kept repeating this out loud, because I have a shoddy memory for things like this. I then used the Cephalite I had gathered passively from missions (they could spawn more often to be honest, but I like killing them, because they explode and make shattered glass noises, which I like), and then prepared myself. 

the actual jumping part isn't that bad, a double jump does it fine, it's just knowing which platform you need, but that's why I kept telling myself under my breath: Sword, Cross, Transducer, Baro, Kaleem. the time limit seems strict but you can still have a look around and see if one of the images matches one of your evidence pieces. the order is randomized too, Sword was the first thing I remembered, because it was the first thing I picked up, but the weapon was asked about last. 

my main gripe is not really getting to listen to the "questioning", because I'm too busy looking around frantically for the right platform to jump on. the idea is to memorize bold words, symbols and even objects themselves, but the problem is that none of this was initially explained.  and that's why people struggled. it wouldn't have killed DE to put a quick blurb like they did with Scarlet Spear up saying "you're about to be questioned on the evidence you have collected and memorized, you must answer by jumping on the correct platform, an incorrect answer is a fail etc", rather than going in blindly and making players waste some Cephalite.

bets advice I can give now is the same advice you'd get at school: if you're not sure, look again, as many times as it takes. go back through the crime scene, and memorize, or even write down/draw anything that might be of importance. but yes, the core issue is "here we go question time, oh that's the wrong platform, you failed bye thanks for wasting Cephalite!"

yet another great idea that was poorly executed on launch.... par for the course for DE really though...

 

[Talinthis]

2 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Johnathan Blow has an amazing discussion on such topic. Does the developer needs to do much hand holding helping players cross the street? When is adequate and when is enough? if we do not allow the possibility of failure then we are excluding the satisfaction when success happens. Yes, documentation could happen in a witty way without holding the player by the hand too much. If I watch a youtube video the probabilities of failure will be much less.

What you are talking about is commodity. Does the developer needs to be generous all the time?  

yes, imo they do need to be. failing because it is challenging and failing because you have no idea what is even happening and are not prepared or expect whatever just happened are two different things. there should never be a lack of that kind of information. there is a difference between figuring things out and sitting at your computer wondering what the #*!% just happened as you are kicked out 2 seconds after you enter something.

adequate/enough is met when you have the basic minimum amount of information required. like i said earlier, a single pop up message and people would have put together that they should look at these clues better before continuing, there isnt really any hand holding as you put it, just basic communication to the player that something you arent used to happening in this game is about to go down.

context is also important, and in this context your character knows what they are doing, which is trying to put together clues, so the player should also know what they are supposed to be trying to do before being thrown into it.

1 hour ago, Mephane said:

* Consume cephalite only on successful completion of the puzzle.

that works too, i was just trying to suggest what it should be with the current implementation of how it is right now.

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

Fully agree with the start prompt.

I feel like its a bit too unexplained if you didnt do the other sessions of nightwave.

part of this might be to pad out gamepaly time for new people, but thats not fun if it is.

[Felsagger]

41 minutes ago, Talinthis said:

yes, imo they do need to be. failing because it is challenging and failing because you have no idea what is even happening and are not prepared or expect whatever just happened are two different things. there should never be a lack of that kind of information. there is a difference between figuring things out and sitting at your computer wondering what the #*!% just happened as you are kicked out 2 seconds after you enter something.

adequate/enough is met when you have the basic minimum amount of information required. like i said earlier, a single pop up message and people would have put together that they should look at these clues better before continuing, there isnt really any hand holding as you put it, just basic communication to the player that something you arent used to happening in this game is about to go down.

context is also important, and in this context your character knows what they are doing, which is trying to put together clues, so the player should also know what they are supposed to be trying to do before being thrown into it.

that works too, i was just trying to suggest what it should be with the current implementation of how it is right now.

Took me 2.5 seconds finding this video. 

A way to memorize objects could be by a letters or one big word or phrase. Any memo-technique suffice for the job. Yes there should be a balance of documentation and of course information on what is going to happen next. 

I understand your concern and the difference between failing by skill and failing by not knowing what is going on. However DE gives an alternative adding more time on this simple puzzle. The instructions are shown here: 

 

Took me 4 seconds reading these three sentences. 

Yes few sentences would have been of good use. I understand that documentation and prior preparation are fundamental on game design. But read what I did. I USED MY BRAIN looking for a youtube video and reading the details shown in the game itself. Took me ZERO effort doing this. However if I fail is because of my own doings, my lack of reflexes, my lack of memory or simply I was paying attention to a chess game instead of playing the game. Span of attention is something we have to educate more often. 

My guy, this is not even basics. 

 

I mean, seriously? 

Edited May 13, 2020 by Felsagger

[(PSN)grayhyh]

35 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Took me 2.5 seconds finding this video. 

A way to memorize objects could be by a letters or one big word or phrase. Any memo-technique suffice for the job. Yes there should be a balance of documentation and of course information on what is going to happen next. 

I understand your concern and the difference between failing by skill and failing by not knowing what is going on. However DE gives an alternative adding more time on this simple puzzle. The instructions are shown here: 

 

Took me 4 seconds reading these three sentences. 

Yes few sentences would have been of good use. I understand that documentation and prior preparation are fundamental on game design. But read what I did. I USED MY BRAIN looking for a youtube video and reading the details shown in the game itself. Took me ZERO effort doing this. However if I fail is because of my own doings, my lack of reflexes, my lack of memory or simply I was paying attention to a chess game instead of playing the game. Span of attention is something we have to educate more often. 

My guy, this is not even basics. 

 

I mean, seriously? 

The guys that keep falling and failing alot are maybe worse tho... Warframe parkour 2.0 is engraved in my brain,i move the warframe almost like i move my head unless you rush too fast or is a new mr how do you even fall in this? and not even once but twice?(i assume some missed the platforms and fell more than once,this is the warframe community after all...)

Ngl i did this blind and almost failed at the ayatan symbol but i kinda remembered out of nowhere after 5 secs weirdly nuff even tho my memory is crap,i explored the thing further beforehand and saw words highlighted in white so i wrote this down incase i would need them,I know how DE works you either way explore stuff incase you missed something or the game will later remind you bout it or you trial and error thru it or learn by seeing people doing it E.G ropalolist

New players might get frustrated with this tho and i will give them the benefit of the doubt,if you are mr 20+ tho... i wont tbh lol at least look it up,You YOLO it in a game like this its kinda on you.

The only thing ill agree on is losing the 10 resonance if you fail and having to regrind them again,nothing in the game is like this why this have to be? even the dumb players dont deserve this kind of punishment imo LOL

TL;DR:warframe community is pretty stupid especially those who failed this more than once but its reasonable kinda for new players,depends.

God now i am joining felsagger in roasting people lol

Edited May 14, 2020 by (PS4)grayhyh

[Felsagger]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)grayhyh said:

 

God, now i am joining felsagger in roasting people lol

 

No, lol, sorry. This is your own doing. ^^

I illustrated an argument. Only that. I don't offend people with my posts. :3. 

[Talinthis]

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

Took me 2.5 seconds finding this video. 

A way to memorize objects could be by a letters or one big word or phrase. Any memo-technique suffice for the job. Yes there should be a balance of documentation and of course information on what is going to happen next. 

I understand your concern and the difference between failing by skill and failing by not knowing what is going on. However DE gives an alternative adding more time on this simple puzzle. The instructions are shown here: 

 

Took me 4 seconds reading these three sentences. 

Yes few sentences would have been of good use. I understand that documentation and prior preparation are fundamental on game design. But read what I did. I USED MY BRAIN looking for a youtube video and reading the details shown in the game itself. Took me ZERO effort doing this. However if I fail is because of my own doings, my lack of reflexes, my lack of memory or simply I was paying attention to a chess game instead of playing the game. Span of attention is something we have to educate more often. 

My guy, this is not even basics. 

 

I mean, seriously? 

i dont watch spoiler content before i do it, and in my opinion nobody ever should since it basically ruins the mystery of it so a link to various peoples youtube isnt really a good point..  personally i read through everything and i didnt have any trouble whatsoever. cant say i passed it the first time though since i didnt pay attention to the symbol on the ayatan star. either way it is still missing a line or so of key information that should be divulged. i have always been told i am very unbiased from many people and i simply state problems i see, regardless if i am a fan of them or not.

i am very attention to detail oriented since my job requires it and its a habit that carries over into every aspect of things i do, but i can see that it can be a problem for a lot of people and i agree with what they say for the most part.

[AzureTerra]

Poorly explained is Warframes Keyword.

[Teljaxx]

I feel like DE has gotten way to used to having the wiki around. They never bother to put any info in the game anymore, because they know that it will all be explained on the wiki within a day or two. But, while its fine to have a wiki to explain the deepest secrets of your game, if players have to go to an external source to find the basic info they need to play at all, that isn't good.

I also get that this whole thing is supposed to be a mystery. But there is a big difference between hunting for vague clues, and stumbling around in the dark until you stub your toe on something that might be a clue.

[darkbrick]

Il y a 10 heures, Talinthis a dit :

everything is poorly explained in this game, it feels like it is a theme of this game they do on purpose at this point.

 

what do you expect from DE? they always like that.

[Teridax68]

13 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

I feel like DE has gotten way to used to having the wiki around. They never bother to put any info in the game anymore, because they know that it will all be explained on the wiki within a day or two. But, while its fine to have a wiki to explain the deepest secrets of your game, if players have to go to an external source to find the basic info they need to play at all, that isn't good.

I also get that this whole thing is supposed to be a mystery. But there is a big difference between hunting for vague clues, and stumbling around in the dark until you stub your toe on something that might be a clue.

I agree, and from experience I know they wouldn't be the only developers to do so. Back when I still played League of Legends, the developers there too openly admitted they'd been relying pretty much entirely on the wiki for information on their own game's lore, stats, and mechanical interactions, because they'd never bothered to construct a database of their own or keep notes. DE is likely not as bad in that respect, but they've certainly never done a great job of teaching players how their own game works, and have instead relied on the community to pick up the slack and explain how things work on Reddit, the player help subforum, or the wiki. If it weren't for the community's efforts, the devs would have to deal with an order of magnitude more player frustration than they're receiving nowadays.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Teridax68

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

Nothing new.

It took Simulacrum detectives to figure out how Damage 2.0 works and a lot of players still don't believe armor class modifiers double dip years after the fact. When relying so much on the wiki and content creators to explain core game mechanics, why is the "abuse" of Simulacrum so surprising?

When players are still arguing how systems that have existed for years actually work, Glassmaker has really high expectations.

[SneakyErvin]

Excellent post OP. The current info in-game about the whole thing is bogus at best.

The system could also use a far better clarification on where the cephalites can spawn since we have too many types of missions to just give us the info that "they spawn in missions".

[carbman95]

*Me when someone says they did it on the first try*

(this is just a joke)

[MorradiX]

"completely fails to communicate vital information to the player,"

 

Yea...basically the story of Warframe chapters 1-10   o.O

[Raso719]

No one told  me I could not aim glide.....

Thus my first mystery bucks were promptly wasted on the very first jump.

[(XBOX)zecuse]

On 2020-05-13 at 12:56 PM, Teridax68 said:

Additionally, it also doesn't help that the test takes the form of a jumping puzzle... using a severely restricted version of the game's movement system. Again, the player isn't told about this. Net result: players have tried to bullet jump or aim glide, both perfectly fine maneuvers, and found the controls not responding, instead sending them plummeting towards 10 wasted Cephalite Resonance. Once again, poor or lacking communication leads to player frustration.

Ah yes. The extremely short jumps that don't look like they warrant a double jump aim glide. So, I'm just going to jump once and aim glide slowly to gracefully land in the middle without worry of correcting my movements in the air. Here I go... WHY DID THE CHAT WINDOW OPEN!!!

[Felsagger]

10 hours ago, MorradiX said:

"completely fails to communicate vital information to the player,"

 

Yea...basically the story of Warframe chapters 1-10   o.O

 

And one of the strongest attributes on this game is the story. It deservers more explanation. That is vital for the game itself. It's sad that many things in this game are not explained in detail. 

On one thing I agree with the original poster here. The game should be exhaustive and explicit on the purposes. 

The GUI in this game is an act of geniality. Let me show that. 

One of the best GUI in any game I've seen. 

[WingR84]

Am 14.5.2020 um 02:48 schrieb Felsagger:

 

No, lol, sorry. This is your own doing. ^^

I illustrated an argument. Only that. I don't offend people with my posts. :3. 

Harassing and stubbornness (you dont argu... you're just a troll) would be the more accurate words, because that's what you've done with me before, because you dont seem to understand how stupid it is to put the info on what to do in a mission on the start button (and you can only see it if you hover over it). How ignorant does someone have to be to not understand that my 40+ upvotes (with a long text that most people just didnt read.. because... people are people) and now this one with another 50+ upvotes AND YOU STILL seem to belive that you beating this the first time wasnt just luck.

Good game design teaches you about the rules or rule changes in a save environment and lets you retry if you fail (to make sure that you get the rules) before you can move on.

1) Warframe told us "falling down isnt a big deal... you respawn" (in the MR test you get 3 trys)
2) The timer also comes when you play elite sanctuary onslaught, but it comes to tell show you that you have to take the portal to move on. So when the timer comes the natural instint, based on Warframes set rules in the past is "i have to move on to the next place to trigger something". Where else do we have a timer? Well, we have it when you have to pick a relic... it's als a "hurry, hurry" situation, so spawning a 60sec timer (without explaining the rules in a save environment) is VERY, VERY bad game design.

There is no logical reason for a warframeplayer with 1000-2000 hours of warframe to know that they have to hover over the startbutton for the game to explain them the basic rules... and what you link there also doesnt explain the rules/punishment for failing.

In the past you got blueprints to craft "the key" to start the mission and you could retry it again if you fail... why isnt that a thing anymore? They even added a limit of 20 glass.... so even if you fail to notice this "secret mission" you cant have more than 2 trys before you have to farm missions again to get another try.... that is ridiculus

[Lysserd]

DE not communicating things? Nah.

Honestly I read up on it ahead of time and I'm still totally flummoxed. I got into the jumping puzzle and the first choice was something like "transducer" or "transformer". I failed. I looked back over all 5 of my clues. Neither of those words appears in the name or description of any of them. So I'm right back to square 1 of not knowing wtf is going on or how this event works at all.

I wouldn't call any element of this event good, tbh. The kneecapped movement in the scene and puzzle are only frustrating and add nothing positive. The puzzle itself is such a drastic departure from regular Warframe that it needs a lot of explanation and got 0. The puzzle itself is, of course, buggy with clues not matching correct answers. The currency is on a server timer in missions, so it's possible to just be unlucky and play in short bursts (which is fairly common) and just never get any.

I'm struggling to see how their good idea could have been implemented worse without just being 100% broken or being a 3D model of a toilet that poops on your face.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

On 2020-05-13 at 12:56 PM, Teridax68 said:

Additionally, it also doesn't help that the test takes the form of a jumping puzzle... using a severely restricted version of the game's movement system. Again, the player isn't told about this. Net result: players have tried to bullet jump or aim glide, both perfectly fine maneuvers, and found the controls not responding, instead sending them plummeting towards 10 wasted Cephalite Resonance. Once again, poor or lacking communication leads to player frustration.

This, right here.  This utter BS has turned me off to the whole thing.  I was looking forward to this and honestly I couldn't care less about the lore behind it now.  It pisses me off even thinking about the cheap shot that is turning off half the parkour system with zero warning and taking my access away until the game decides to let me have more of the key resource.  

I did nothing wrong, other than try to use the movement system that nearly 2,000 hours has ingrained in my muscle memory.  I didn't even think about moving to the rock I wanted to jump to; I just started the motions of jumping to it the same way that I would in a mission, completely on auto-pilot, more thinking about the story than concentrating on movement because after nearly 2,000 hours I don't and shouldn't have to think about moving.  I did nothing wrong and it cost me the only 10 cephalite the game has dropped for me so far.

I'm not going to sit here and deal with a bunch of nonsense like them removing half the parkour system with no warning because they wanted to make a stupid jumping puzzle.  If it's just standing that it's going to drop and no other reward, then I'll just flat out skip it, all their hard work on the lore and whatnot be damned.  I'll let the people that eat this stupid S#&$ up get through it and see if there's any reason at the end to put up with how annoying it is.  Otherwise I'll be hitting rank 30 and going on a break unless they decide to fix how poorly designed it is right now.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

1 hour ago, WingR84 said:

They even added a limit of 20 glass

There's a #*!%ing limit on this stupid ass resource required to participate in this asinine neutered jumping puzzle?  If that's true then nope.  Pass.