DE wants a Zero Tolerance policy and that's going to destroy this game

[Chicken-Biryani]

Honestly this situation would never have arose if rules were enforced without discrimination. It should be a wake up call for DE because one of these days they are gonna make a big enough mess for themselves all because their own rules aren't being enforced diligently. 

[Zimzala]

4 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

I HATE poeple that are toxic, racist, or otherwise hateful, but if I would be a target, I would just block them.

But in WF, we cannot actually block the player, all we can do is block the chats from that player.

As for the rest, the fact that people in someplaces are treated poorly is not an excuse to treat them poorly elsewhere.

Yes, the world is a dangerous place, but game companies can make thier games a haven from that if they choose to do so.

Ignoring them does nothing, they must be ostricized by fellow gamers, IMO, they must be driven away, the do not deserve to play games with the rest of us, IMO.

[Zimzala]

1 minute ago, Follordark said:

ok then show me the broad picture

You are reading it right now and you have the Internet at your fingertips.

Some gamers think that just staying silent is not the answer and I agree.

Just because you have not seen or experienced 'bad stuff' does not mean it does not exist, that is an excuse for bad behaviour that's thousands of years old at this point and hold no water, it's just you being unwilling to empathize.

You will have to learn these things for yourself, I am not here to be your personal mentor. 🙂 

[XzWasPzX]

As a CSGO player I think Warframe is a paradise of politeness. This is one of the most kind environments i know, and one of the reasons that makes me love it. If something is fine, dont fix it xD

[Cerikus]

14 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

But in WF, we cannot actually block the player, all we can do is block the chats from that player.

Well you can ignore the player, so the player cannot send a dm to you. If it would be in a general I would just ignore it.

14 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

As for the rest, the fact that people in someplaces are treated poorly is not an excuse to treat them poorly elsewhere.

Of course you are right about that.

14 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Yes, the world is a dangerous place, but game companies can make thier games a haven from that if they choose to do so.

Yes, but not by giving a bot or a person that has it's own biases and opinions a power to delete you.

14 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Ignoring them does nothing, they must be ostricized by fellow gamers, IMO, they must be driven away, the do not deserve to play games with the rest of us, IMO.

You are 100% correct. The proper way would be to give gamers the power to ostricize the "bad people".

I don't know how exactly. (some karma rating? we do have a reporting system which work quite well)

But not by giving few people an absolute power with zero tolerance.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Cerikus
typo again

[General-Pacman]

5 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

But not giving few people an absolute power with zero tolerance.

This is my biggest concern with this issue. Im 100% on board with DE being more strict with punishing racism and toxic behaviour on chats, but if that authority is going to be on the hands of the current moderators... *shivers*

Edited June 5, 2020 by General-Pacman

[Felsagger]

General theorems: 

 

Any private company chooses their endorsements, favorites and the people that represents their best interests. 

Any private company defines their rules enforcing them they way they see fit according to their necessities and sufficiency. 

Not all companies coincide with the concept of democracy. You are a consumer and you approved Eula Terms when you downloaded the game. 

Companies are not a court of justice. They are judge jury and executioner. 

Companies defines their own policies and how they relates with the public. 

 

My only two choices. 

a. Close the account and play other games. 

b. Keep the account and understand the terms of use doing the behavior they ask. 

 

Simple. 

 

[Cerikus]

3 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

General theorems: 

 

Any private company chooses their endorsements, favorites and the people that represents their best interests. 

Any private company defines their rules enforcing them they way they see fit according to their necessities and sufficiency. 

Not all companies coincide with the concept of democracy. You are a consumer and you approved Eula Terms when you downloaded the game. 

Companies are not a court of justice. They are judge jury and executioner. 

Companies defines their own policies and how they relates with the public. 

 

My only two choices. 

a. Close the account and play other games. 

b. Keep the account and understand the terms of use doing the behavior they ask. 

 

Simple. 

 

Of course. 100% true

But, you are the customer. You pick up the wallet and give the money and if you don't like something you have to say it. Why?

Because if all the people that don't agree with DEs approach pick option A, we can all say "byebye" to Warframe.

[jakey1995abc]

IMO racism cannot be defined by the words you use, but the way that you use them. Anyone agree? Context always matters, and there is no way of fairly policing it online without manually going through every message anyone ever sends anyone else.

[Zimzala]

16 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

But not by giving few people an absolute power with zero tolerance.

Players are human, they too will make mistakes, we cannot have a perfect situation because the jerks exist.

I don't see access to WF as some 'right' we have as humans.

DE has all the power, they always have and always will, besides our choice to pay them or not.

Someone getting a 'bad' ban they have to appeal in WF due to a human error is simply not at the level of being deleted as a person, they simply don't have access to a game.

If I can throw out an unruly patron and not allow them back into the bar until I say OK as the manager, that is no diffrent than doing that online.

WF is a game, it's entertainment, not a live-giving resource that needs to be regulated.

Will that tick off some players? Sure, nothing is perfect.

[KosmicKerman]

7 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

Of course. 100% true

But, you are the customer. You pick up the wallet and give the money and if you don't like something you have to say it. Why?

Because if all the people that don't agree with DEs approach pick option A, we can all say "byebye" to Warframe.

 The number of people who think taking Option A is warranted under these circumstances is much, much smaller than you think. The number of people who will actually take their ball and go home is a tiny fraction of that. 

[Zimzala]

3 minutes ago, jakey1995abc said:

IMO racism cannot be defined by the words you use, but the way that you use them. Anyone agree? Context always matters, and there is no way of fairly policing it online without manually going through every message anyone ever sends anyone else.

Fair has very little to do with it, that's the whole point, life is not fair and no game company can change that.

DE can state the policy and enforce the policy automagically.

Players can appeal if they think DE has not treated them properly as a customer and DE can choose to provide that person services or not.

DE is not under some magical obligation to even treat each customer the same way, much less under some law-based guidance to not ban troublesome customers.

I sure treat customer that pay $1M differently than those who pay $1, for example, even if they both get professional service.

There is no onus on DE to treat anyone as anything more than a consumer and consumers can be banned from services as the company wishes.

Fair has nothing to do with it, if things were fair, the jerks would not exist, IMO.

 

No one has the 'right' to use the open chanels on DE's WF platform, everyone does so at the courtesy of DE, like it or not, they control it.

[KosmicKerman]

3 minutes ago, jakey1995abc said:

It is also interesting that prior to commenting on this thread I had multiple likes on comments (it's almost as if DE are trying to hide something...) and even more interesting is that your response bares no relevance to my comment or any others. I've been here for 7 years.

Because your comment is pure troll bait. Using racial, homophobic, or ethnic slurs is unacceptable. No context is needed. No community needs to tolerate anyone using slurs. I also think it is highly relevant that your only engagement with the community for an account created in 2013, with an about me section that says "rivenmarket_5ecabd5a9f5de", is 4 posts in a thread discussing a potential zero tolerance policy for hate speech and racism.

[jakey1995abc]

1 minute ago, Zimzala said:

Fair has very little to do with it, that's the whole point, life is not fair and no game company can change that.

DE can state the policy and enforce the policy automagically.

Players can appeal if they think DE has not treated them properly as a customer and DE can choose to provide that person services or not.

DE is not under some magical obligation to even treat each customer the same way, much less under some law-based guidance to not ban troublesome customers.

I sure treat customer that pay $1M differently than those who pay $1, for example, even if they both get professional service.

There is no onus on DE to treat anyone as anything more than a consumer and consumers can be banned from services as the company wishes.

Fair has nothing to do with it, if things were fair, the jerks would not exist, IMO.

 

No one has the 'right' to use the open chanels on DE's WF platform, everyone does so at the courtesy of DE, like it or not, they control it.

I agree, the best we can all do is provide our unique and alternative opinions to help make the platform a better, fairer, and more reasonable place for EVERYONE. For example, I hate it when DE lock a thread for getting out of hand. It prevents the discussion of the topic in it's tracks and all because 1 or 2 people and it can never be mentioned again without violating rules on "spamming".

[MagPrime]

3 minutes ago, KosmicKerman said:

Because your comment is pure troll bait. Using racial, homophobic, or ethnic slurs is unacceptable. No context is needed. No community needs to tolerate anyone using slurs. I also think it is highly relevant that your only engagement with the community for an account created in 2013, with an about me section that says "rivenmarket_5ecabd5a9f5de", is 4 posts in a thread discussing a potential zero tolerance policy for hate speech and racism.

Old posts get archieved and can't be seen after a certain point.  

I can find my introduction post via Google but I can't see it in my post history.

[Helch0rn]

47 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Ignoring them does nothing, they must be ostricized by fellow gamers, IMO, they must be driven away, the do not deserve to play games with the rest of us, IMO.

the sad thing nowadays is, that many people define racism, sexims and the like by "they disagree with me"

do you want to be ostracised from a game you like because you had a disagreement with someone?

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

3 hours ago, Zimzala said:

I wish that they would tighten the thing up so much that these immature bad apples in our community would simply walk away from gaming entirely.

This is an extremely dangerous opinion. If you drive enought people out of the public spaces they will find each other in the private spaces, and if you lump together those who are bad actors because they don't know better with those who are bad actors by choice, you bolster the ranks of those who are bad actors by choice.

If you were out in public one day, and you said something, and then suddenly everyone around you refused to even speak with you, and never told you why, and just said stuff like "You know what you said." and "How dare you say that!", and then someone came up to you and said "Hey, I saw what happened. Same thing happened to me and a bunch of other people; come join us.", what are you going to do? Because that is exactly what is happening on the Internet. People who are new to all of this and don't know what is going on say things that they were raised to say but that are offensive on the internet, get ostracized, and then wind up lumped in with the real racists and the real bigots, who then get to be the ones who teach and guide them, creating another racist bigot. People typically aren't born racist, but are taught racism. If you cast someone out then you abdicate the ability to teach them what is right.

Now, if you let someone stay in your online community, and you try to teach them, and they reject it, then go ahead and cast them out, so they can go be with their fellow racists and bigots. But don't send the teachable to those who will teach them wrongly. The internet is far too vast and too deep to be able to completely prevent racists and bigots from using it to congregate. They will always be there to take in those whom you reject. So be careful when deciding whom to cast out.

[Chicken-Biryani]

1 minute ago, Helch0rn said:

the sad thing nowadays is, that many people define racism, sexims and the like by "they disagree with me"

do you want to be ostracised from a game you like because you had a disagreement with someone?

 

1 minute ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

This is an extremely dangerous opinion. If you drive enought people out of the public spaces they will find each other in the private spaces, and if you lump together those who are bad actors because they don't know better with those who are bad actors by choice, you bolster the ranks of those who are bad actors by choice.

If you were out in public one day, and you said something, and then suddenly everyone around you refused to even speak with you, and never told you why, and just said stuff like "You know what you said." and "How dare you say that!", and then someone came up to you and said "Hey, I saw what happened. Same thing happened to me and a bunch of other people; come join us.", what are you going to do? Because that is exactly what is happening on the Internet. People who are new to all of this and don't know what is going on say things that they were raised to say but that are offensive on the internet, get ostracized, and then wind up lumped in with the real racists and the real bigots, who then get to be the ones who teach and guide them, creating another racist bigot. People typically aren't born racist, but are taught racism. If you cast someone out then you abdicate the ability to teach them what is right.

Now, if you let someone stay in your online community, and you try to teach them, and they reject it, then go ahead and cast them out, so they can go be with their fellow racists and bigots. But don't send the teachable to those who will teach them wrongly. The internet is far too vast and too deep to be able to completely prevent racists and bigots from using it to congregate. They will always be there to take in those whom you reject. So be careful when deciding whom to cast out.

100% agree... I believe that there is a saying that goes... you become what you hate... The current system of fixed time warnings and then accumulation of them resulting in more severe punishment is a good one. (The real problem lies in the fact that it's enforcement isn't uniform and just.) So maybe they would do well to look at that side of the equation.  

 

[MagPrime]

2 minutes ago, Helch0rn said:

the sad thing nowadays is, that many people define racism, sexims and the like by "they disagree with me"

do you want to be ostracised from a game you like because you had a disagreement with someone?

The best way to prevent this is to have clearly defined boundaries and guidelines.

And some common sense. .-.

[jakey1995abc]

5 minutes ago, KosmicKerman said:

Because your comment is pure troll bait. Using racial, homophobic, or ethnic slurs is unacceptable. No context is needed. No community needs to tolerate anyone using slurs. I also think it is highly relevant that your only engagement with the community for an account created in 2013, with an about me section that says "rivenmarket_5ecabd5a9f5de", is 4 posts in a thread discussing a potential zero tolerance policy for hate speech and racism.

This is not the case, my other posts were removed for "spam" for talking about a subject that had been mentioned before and also locked for getting off topic. And maybe I only feel the need to comment on serious issues rather than posting about what Warframe I think is the best.
Could you give examples or these words that you deem unacceptable so that the community can avoid using them?

[Sean]

Context should always matter.

The moment we remove context form the equation is then when we start down a pretty terrible path.

 

There's music out there that uses words that are fine there, but quoting them would warrant a ban here.

There does need to be a proper balance though, words like "trap" (as an example) would be the kind of word that would benefit from not being in any automatic systems as it is a standard word that just has other meanings. This is the part that a self-made & managed filter would then fit perfectly as it can be promptly excised if a person so chooses. The system's automation already can't allow numerous normal words just because a word can contain something that is blocked, one that I stated earlier being "participate".

 

Automation should only be done for the extremes, nothing less than that.

 

_{Side note to those unaware:
There are three different filters in the game with their own unique lists.}

1. _Kickbot
2. _{Profanity Filter}
3. _{Custom Text within Signs/Decorations/Configs/Weapons}

Edited June 5, 2020 by Sean

[Helch0rn]

Just now, MagPrime said:

The best way to prevent this is to have clearly defined boundaries and guidelines.

And some common sense. .-.

common sense is exceedingly rare these days

[MagPrime]

Just now, Helch0rn said:

common sense is exceedingly rare these days

Pedantism incoming. 

Common sense is subjective to your environment and experiences.  If there's to be a commonly agreed upon definition of common sense, the community needs to create and make available what it considers common sense. 

[Breezer88]

Who is the almighty arbiter of what is and is not hate speech? As a Christian, there are things that "offend" me. Movies endless use of GD, etc and so on. But once I run into a film, tv series, games that are "offensive", I just don't play them. Just because a small percentage of people are "offended" by an action or word(s), doesn't discount that people in the majority can not be "offended" themselves. I am uncomfortable with some life choices whether it be in dating, marriage, language and more but if I EVER thought that I could control the narravtive is God like. I have seen and heard some of the most racist and offensive things said to members of their own race, sex, etc. Why is it okay when a girl calls another girl the B word? I find that "offensive" as I respect women as I come from a "traditional" home. Yes Ma'am, No Ma'am, open doors, walk on the outside of the sidewalk closest to the street in the chance a car would pup the curb. So the question is if racism exists within communities of the same race then why do people try and police what is and is not offensive? Hope this makes sense. 

[kwlingo]

another thread that will be turned off. lol