What we know of hard mode

[Rakosta_Kai]

5 hours ago, Bingotough said:

While I largely agree with the sentiments about it not being required, I wouldn't say no value, but perhaps limited (and subjective)? I value the rewards, but also recognise the diminishing returns. 

It has no value that isn't entirely subjective to the player after rank 16...Fact. Heck, the only reason why it's even 16 is due to select rivens.

That said, it's a nifty bonus for playing the mode... But I wouldn't call it compulsory like certain individuals. 

It shouldn't be a reason to make you want to play it.

6 hours ago, Bingotough said:

Also, by the time you're MR29 and the Steel Path is all that stands in your way, it should be relatively straightforward. I'm MR25 and at the point where there's not much left to do other than chase down errant weapons and a few prime frames and kDrives but haven't spent time refining frames and doing long runs. I expect the Steel Path to be simple (maybe not easy) in the near future. As it is, I've run a few earth missions and found them tough, but I was running my normal builds with weapons I was still levelling.

Technically, I think it's supposed to be Arbitrations that qualify as "end game" and this is supposed to be a mode closer to PvP... in that it's for the niche audience that wants harder challenges without the time component.

Ideally, it will be hard enough to satisfy that crowd without dragging players who don't actually want that level of difficulty in just because of loot or status.

Truth told, it probably should have been a difficulty slider with "Entirely Cheese-able" one one end and "Ludicrously Not Cheese-able" on the other, a mission creator, or even themed months/crafted opponents. 

I think DE is doing a good job of keeping the rewards balanced between the modes this time around and I hope that they can stay the course on the matter.

"Being Open to Feedback" shouldn't mean "Folding like Money" to the whims of Toxic Elitists and Greedy Mercenaries. 

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

 - Believes awarded relics should be Radiant relics since there's no boost to Void Traces. Otherwise, normal mode is better for farming relics.

And this is why DE should never listen to content creators since they dont seem to think at times.

Forcing radiant relics wouldnt help the mode be more rewarding, it would just add another layer to why we'll avoid it. If someone is after bronze rewards in a relic they dont want radiant relics. This would in effect drive people away from hard mode when new primes arrive and it would also drive people into normal to get more appropriate relics for forma farming. 

I really dont understand how people need increased void trace drops when hitting the cap is something that happens very fast when farming Kuva or cracking relics.

[Angwah]

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And this is why DE should never listen to content creators since they dont seem to think at times.

Forcing radiant relics wouldnt help the mode be more rewarding, it would just add another layer to why we'll avoid it. If someone is after bronze rewards in a relic they dont want radiant relics. This would in effect drive people away from hard mode when new primes arrive and it would also drive people into normal to get more appropriate relics for forma farming. 

I really dont understand how people need increased void trace drops when hitting the cap is something that happens very fast when farming Kuva or cracking relics.

Eh, I wouldn't mind, even when chasing bronze. There are still good odds you'll be getting bronze, and if not, you might be getting something that will sell for more than 1 plat. 

Now, if we are in wishing territory, a tier beyond radiant getting added to the reward tables. Even better? Relic keys in the different tiers that allow you to choose your reward of that particular tier...

[Felsagger]

8 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And this is why DE should never listen to content creators since they dont seem to think at times.

Forcing radiant relics wouldnt help the mode be more rewarding, it would just add another layer to why we'll avoid it. If someone is after bronze rewards in a relic they dont want radiant relics. This would in effect drive people away from hard mode when new primes arrive and it would also drive people into normal to get more appropriate relics for forma farming. 

I really dont understand how people need increased void trace drops when hitting the cap is something that happens very fast when farming Kuva or cracking relics.

You are being generous. 

 

The thinking game should be done only by DE. We propose, they filter selecting what better fits their game and vision. 

 

[SneakyErvin]

13 minutes ago, Angwah said:

Eh, I wouldn't mind, even when chasing bronze. There are still good odds you'll be getting bronze, and if not, you might be getting something that will sell for more than 1 plat. 

Now, if we are in wishing territory, a tier beyond radiant getting added to the reward tables. Even better? Relic keys in the different tiers that allow you to choose your reward of that particular tier...

It is about efficiency, good odds arent the same as the best odds. Spending less time in fissures to get the parts needed is far better than the opposite, not everyone has time to run extra fissures when it could have been avoided by using intact relics instead. And if I'm after bronze I dont care if I get something to sell, since if I'm looking for prime parts to sell I run specific fissures for that.

I'd get behind forced radiant rewards if we could downgrade relics as we wish without getting any traces back.

19 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

You are being generous. 

 

The thinking game should be done only by DE. We propose, they filter selecting what better fits their game and vision. 

True, but sadly they listen way too often to toober, which has caused several cases of bad design decisions in game, just look at the original arbitration double rotation times, that was all the cause of a toober idea, which was later *@##$ed about by the same toober that came up with it.

[vFlitz]

45 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And this is why DE should never listen to content creators since they dont seem to think at times.

Forcing radiant relics wouldnt help the mode be more rewarding, it would just add another layer to why we'll avoid it. If someone is after bronze rewards in a relic they dont want radiant relics. This would in effect drive people away from hard mode when new primes arrive and it would also drive people into normal to get more appropriate relics for forma farming. 

Sorry, but that's reaching so far you might as well be Inspector Gadget. Common parts are dime a dozen and you can easily get them even from rad relics - it's only the uncommon and rare that have any value. I assure you, no reasonable person would mind getting rad relics in hard mode.

The only reasons why ESO isn't used to farm them more are because repetition turns that mode into nothing short of misery, you need a premade squad so that people don't leave after zone 2 and you can't even feasibly get axi relics there as they have nonexistent drop chance.

[SneakyErvin]

2 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

Sorry, but that's reaching so far you might as well be Inspector Gadget. Common parts are dime a dozen and you can easily get them even from rad relics - it's only the uncommon and rare that have any value. I assure you, no reasonable person would mind getting rad relics in hard mode.

The only reasons why ESO isn't used to farm them more are because repetition turns that mode into nothing short of misery, you need a premade squad so that people don't leave after zone 2 and you can't even feasibly get axi relics there as they have nonexistent drop chance.

It is still not optimal. Why do so many WF players have such a hard time understanding the concept of efficiency while playing a looter game? I'm currently sitting on so many radiants that my account would burst if it could. I'll never run into a situation where I'll run out of both radiant relics and void traces at the same time, I do however know I'll need/want intact relics when future primes are released so I can farm them as fast end efficiently as possible. Not only does it mean that hard will award me fewer needed relics/minute due to slower TTK, but it will also reward me less efficient relics for the cracking part if radiants are forced rewards.

 

[vFlitz]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It is still not optimal. Why do so many WF players have such a hard time understanding the concept of efficiency while playing a looter game? I'm currently sitting on so many radiants that my account would burst if it could. I'll never run into a situation where I'll run out of both radiant relics and void traces at the same time, I do however know I'll need/want intact relics when future primes are released so I can farm them as fast end efficiently as possible. Not only does it mean that hard will award me fewer needed relics/minute due to slower TTK, but it will also reward me less efficient relics for the cracking part if radiants are forced rewards.

It's more beneficial to have an option to optimize for something harder to get, such as rare parts, than it is for something that is already simple. I usually only do fissures when I actually need something, which means I rarely see my trace value capped. And then there will be a wide variety of people who fall somewhere in between you and me - I wouldn't say having an overabundance of traces and rad relics is exactly the norm that should be expected of everyone.

Besides, you keep rads out of hard mode, what do you get then? If you want to farm as fast and efficiently as you can, you'll still stick to normal mode because enemies can be killed faster. Preferably in fortuna, because with bounties you can actually target specific new relics. And everyone else will do it, regardless of their trace economy. Rad relics being available would give a lot of people an alternative, while for you it would change nothing either way.

[Jarriaga]

18 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

Besides, you keep rads out of hard mode, what do you get then? If you want to farm as fast and efficiently as you can, you'll still stick to normal mode because enemies can be killed faster.

This is the same problem for Kuva in hard mode.

[Angwah]

44 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It is still not optimal. Why do so many WF players have such a hard time understanding the concept of efficiency while playing a looter game? I'm currently sitting on so many radiants that my account would burst if it could. I'll never run into a situation where I'll run out of both radiant relics and void traces at the same time, I do however know I'll need/want intact relics when future primes are released so I can farm them as fast end efficiently as possible. Not only does it mean that hard will award me fewer needed relics/minute due to slower TTK, but it will also reward me less efficient relics for the cracking part if radiants are forced rewards.

The mind boggles. Seriously, you'd rather prefer a none-radiant relic because you are sometimes farming specific bronze parts with basic eggs? Because you believe this to be the most efficient way?

Ok, how about this for efficiency: run with the radiant, sell what you get, buy the bronze you need from the market. Takes 1 run. Seriously, farming a specific bronze part by cracking eggs till you get it is never the most efficient way, but you do you. 

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, vFlitz said:

It's more beneficial to have an option to optimize for something harder to get, such as rare parts, than it is for something that is already simple. I usually only do fissures when I actually need something, which means I rarely see my trace value capped. And then there will be a wide variety of people who fall somewhere in between you and me - I wouldn't say having an overabundance of traces and rad relics is exactly the norm that should be expected of everyone.

Besides, you keep rads out of hard mode, what do you get then? If you want to farm as fast and efficiently as you can, you'll still stick to normal mode because enemies can be killed faster. Preferably in fortuna, because with bounties you can actually target specific new relics. And everyone else will do it, regardless of their trace economy. Rad relics being available would give a lot of people an alternative, while for you it would change nothing either way.

I dont see how you cant have your traces caped when we have several ways to obtain them now passively. When people start doing liches regularly aswell as farming kuva from fissures, void traces will never be a problem, so the need for radiant relics as rewards is really just a bandaid and certainly doesnt improve the lootpool. But like I said, give us a way to downgrade relics and I'll be all in support of the system.

The alternative for rad relics is there already and will be there in hard mode without adding it on all nodes. hard mode ESO will still drop the rads like it does now. How should ESO be improved then to ever be used in hard mode if that special thing is removed? And it would change something for me when I decide to run interception or survival instead of the tedium that is rushing lowbie capture mssions. Since interception and survival will be as rewarding in hard mode as it is in normal even with increased enemy TTL, while also being alot more interesting at higher levels.

50 minutes ago, Angwah said:

The mind boggles. Seriously, you'd rather prefer a none-radiant relic because you are sometimes farming specific bronze parts with basic eggs? Because you believe this to be the most efficient way?

Ok, how about this for efficiency: run with the radiant, sell what you get, buy the bronze you need from the market. Takes 1 run. Seriously, farming a specific bronze part by cracking eggs till you get it is never the most efficient way, but you do you. 

I'd prefer it since the only time there is a point to care about relic farming is when new primes are released or vaults are opened. At which point you need both ends of relic rarity.

I prefer playing the game by not taking payed shortcuts and instead rely on the mechanics in the most efficient way. Only time I shell out plat is if RNG is extremely against me or I want a vaulted item right then and there. I dont pay to rob myself of playtime.

[Jarriaga]

Tactical Potato's impressions are in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCYkwiBVGQU

- Fought the Wolf. Couldn't kill it until a second attempt with a Shattering Impact Sarpa.

- Archwing missions are a common complaint. Said they are outright terrible.

- In his opinion, enemies feel like they did before the recent armor scaling adjustment thanks to the Sortie 2x modifiers.

- The 2x modifiers kinda defeat the idea of being able to level up your weapons faster since non-maxed gear is having a hard time scoring skills. Not a problem is someone else is doing the killing for you and you are leeching.

- Feels current rewards will not be worth the mode for most players. Mentions that just throwing Umbra forma, unique armors, skins and/or syandanas could work as incentives.

- His closing thoughts are that this is simply "prestige" starchart without rewards. Syndicate missions, Arbitrations, Void Fissures are not part of TSP. Didn't mention Railjack, but I'd presume it's excluded as well. Feels like having the same drop tables as in normal mode is a mistake (Like Brozime). 

- Believes it will be ready to ship this week.

- Sargas Ruk, Kela de Thaym and Lephantis were very difficult at level 130+ with 2x Armor and Health plus the damage they deal. Felt like what a boss fight should feel.

- Believes hard mode should be hard and people who want it easy should be ignored, but he also believes that the current implementation is overkill due to bullet sponges to the point you might as well remove the "shooter" part of WF and go full melee.

- Half-jokingly calls it Bullet Sponge Mode.

[Hypernaut1]

13 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

 

- His closing thoughts are that this is simply "prestige" starchart without rewards. Syndicate missions, Arbitrations, Void Fissures are not part of TSP. Didn't mention Railjack, but I'd presume it's excluded as well. Feels like having the same drop tables as in normal mode is a mistake (Like Brozime). 

 

This is the most disappointing thing to me. Personally, I wanted it layered over everything. If I had it my way, i would never/rarely fight a sub 100 enemy again.

[SneakyErvin]

19 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Tactical Potato's impressions are in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCYkwiBVGQU

- Fought the Wolf. Couldn't kill it until a second attempt with a Shattering Impact Sarpa.

- Archwing missions are a common complaint. Said they are outright terrible.

- In his opinion, enemies feel like they did before the recent armor scaling adjustment thanks to the Sortie 2x modifiers.

- The 2x modifiers kinda defeat the idea of being able to level up your weapons faster since non-maxed gear is having a hard time scoring skills. Not a problem is someone else is doing the killing for you and you are leeching.

- Feels current rewards will not be worth the mode for most players. Mentions that just throwing Umbra forma, unique armors, skins and/or syandanas could work as incentives.

- His closing thoughts are that this is simply "prestige" starchart without rewards. Syndicate missions, Arbitrations, Void Fissures are not part of TSP. Didn't mention Railjack, but I'd presume it's excluded as well. Feels like having the same drop tables as in normal mode is a mistake (Like Brozime). 

- Believes it will be ready to ship this week.

- Sargas Ruk, Kela de Thaym and Lephantis were very difficult at level 130+ with 2x Armor and Health plus the damage they deal. Felt like what a boss fight should feel.

- Believes hard mode should be hard and people who want it easy should be ignored, but he also believes that the current implementation is overkill due to bullet sponges to the point you might as well remove the "shooter" part of WF and go full melee.

- Half-jokingly calls it Bullet Sponge Mode.

Honestly I'm not surprised at all since DE just cant design balanced and challenging content. It is either too much or too little, or in a combination like here where the mobs are too much and unimaginative and the loot is too little to make it worthwhile.

I guess when it comes I'll just change to my Rev loadout and go collect mastery solo, then just try and cheese a few archwing missions in a pug.

[Jarriaga]

Ashisogi Tenno's impressions are also here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iX0kVSs2dI

- 30 minute video, longest in-depth so far vs. Brozime and Tater.

- Both loves it and hates it.

- Calls himself out on his earlier opinion of higher enemy levels not being good enough for hard mode without better AI. He says he was wrong thanks to the Sortie modifier on top of enemy levels. Now even his meta builds that absolutely melted level 170 enemies and worked all the way to level 2000 (Two thousand) enemies were not feeling as effective. 

- Gets to appreciate that enemies do in fact have some form of AI. Still calls them stupid drones, but now that they live for more than 5 seconds they have enough time to complete their own animation loops. They now seem to take cover, run around, attempt to melee, roll, and other stuff. That has always been there, but they just didn't live long enough to perform said actions.

- Armor stripping and shield stripping is key. 

- States you are in for a rude awakening if you try to play without optimized meta builds. Tried solo defense missions back and forth with general fun stuff and then meta stuff to compare and the difference was a stark contrast not just in terms of efficiency, but at a basic completion level since he failed several times when not going for meta. Game mode feels restrictive because of this. If you are all for meta builds and nothing but meta builds you'll have no problems when solo.

- Went back and forth between actual hard mode missions and simulacrum to compare damage at same level to make sure.

- If you want to play with non-meta frames, builds and weapons you like, you'll need a squad to carry you.

- Believes current rewards are a problem as there are no good incentives for choosing hard mode over normal mode once you complete hard mode. 

- Gives examples of possible rewards such as Riven Slivers but for Umbra Forma or relics that don't have common rewards as incentives.

- Companion survivability is a problem. Sentinels run out of prime regens within the first minutes. Moas, Kavats and Kubrows have to be revived constantly. Believes they should be made invincible in hard mode to work as 100% utility.

[Loza03]

9 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

- For the first time he gets to appreciate that enemies do in fact have some form of AI. Still calls them stupid drones, but now that they get to live for more than 5 seconds, you see them doing stuff, moving, covering, attacking, getting closer because they simply have enough lifetime to complete their own animation loops.

Granted, but this is still AI designed for a stealth/action game where fighting large, fully alerted groups was considered a punishment for not picking your fights properly. Which uh... isn't really what Warframe is right now.

As I said, still interested in the magnifying glass this puts on the game's balance because HOO BOY it needs it.

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

I can see cc and armour stripping being the meta here tbh.  

Someone like mag who can strip armour and replenish shields at the same time as do crowd control I think may be pretty strong.

As for rewards, by the time you've graduated to this mode, does anyone really care about resources?  I honestly dgaf about getting more rubedo or nano spores etc.   Evergreen rewards are what people want and will keep them coming back.  

And levelling weapons?  That's not what this is for at all.  It's already damned fast on normal star chart.  This mode is for bringing your best gear that you've already forma'd 5-6 times. 

[Jarriaga]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Hyperion Rexx said:

As for rewards, by the time you've graduated to this mode, does anyone really care about resources?

Kuva. Can run dry a stockpile of 400,000 in a single Riven in 10 minutes and not get the bonuses you're looking for. Has happened to me.

[(PSN)poloslash18]

Excellent. We get to use complicated stragegies and synergies to kill what we can and hold what we can’t.... For the same drops.

 

Looking foward to it.

[Jarriaga]

38 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Granted, but this is still AI designed for a stealth/action game where fighting large, fully alerted groups was considered a punishment for not picking your fights properly. Which uh... isn't really what Warframe is right now.

As I said, still interested in the magnifying glass this puts on the game's balance because HOO BOY it needs it.

Agreed.

[vFlitz]

48 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Kuva. Can run dry a stockpile of 400,000 in a single Riven in 10 minutes and not get the bonuses you're looking for. Has happened to me.

While I'd be nice to get good amounts of it in hard mode, this is more of a testament to how absurd kuva economy and the riven system as a whole are.

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

As I said, still interested in the magnifying glass this puts on the game's balance because HOO BOY it needs it.

Total agreement from my part. This game mode will hopefully highlight some of the longstanding issues with enemy design and player power, basically the combat system in general. 

[Jarriaga]

5 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

While I'd be nice to get good amounts of it in hard mode, this is more of a testament to how absurd kuva economy and the riven system as a whole are.

Indeed. But I am aware it's intentional. Supply and demand are tied to value even if it is an artificial scarcity. If my Rivens were where I want them to be I'd have nothing else to do in the game. And even if they get to that point, new weapons are still released and I may want Rivens for the weapons I like. This is as close as it gets to an evergreen goal.

Example: Gaze. Now that it is a primary, I am working on it to replace my Glaxion Vandal as my main weapon and just recently got a Riven for it. This will then continue when I want a new weapon to replace my Gaze, and so on and so on.

[kyori]

Has the test cluster ended? Quick end and quick release

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, kyori said:

Has the test cluster ended? Quick end and quick release

No idea, I just hope they dont knee-jerk it out there.

Would be good if they made use of test cluster feedback and change what needs to be changed so it isnt DoA. Which I suspect will be the outcome of it if it releases in the way it is now. It seems lackluster on so many levels.