What we know of hard mode

[SneakyErvin]

11 hours ago, 844448 said:

Hey, warframe itself is probably the only game that isn't in the mold of any game. OP power to break the universe to dust, no rarity/star/rating based gear, super fast movement instead of slow, asthmatic character running through the place, etc

The speed of WF is a moped racing a motorcycle when compared to the speed potential of a few other games in the genre. WF may seem superfast, except that when we move we move, that is pretty much it. While in PoE, D3, old Marvel Heroes, TL2 and even GD we can actually move and kill, kill and move, move, kill and move some more and kill some more at very high speed efficiency.

The only thing outside the mold of other arpgs is the multi dimensional movement, no actual level progression and no actual gear progression as a side result. We still have rarity and star rating on items, it is just called mastery here and higher rarity of a weapon just comes as a new weapon instead most of the time, or as a different weapon that works the same.

Atomos, Nukor and Kuva Nukor are all pretty much the same weapon but with slightly different power depending on the "rarity".

[vFlitz]

The more I look at this, the more I don't know just who the heck is supposed to the target audience for this mode. And if it's not going to satisfy anyone, clearly it needs some changes?

- It's not for people who just want the option to skip an hour of scaling and get high level enemies for fun

If it was, there would be no need to go through the entire starchart again to unlock every node.

The sortie modifiers are also questionable here, as they're not representative of what you face in most of the game. If enemies are too squishy without them, why not just increase the level more? At least then players can actually tell what they're up against instead of the information being muddled.

And the point of mastery that others bring up is a fair one, I think. No matter if you care about or not, it ties Steel Path into the game's progression which does make it objectively less optional.

-It's not for people who want a challenge mode that gives good/cool rewards

Simply put, the emotes and decorations are pretty much the most minimum effort stuff that could have been thrown together just so people can't say there's no rewards at all. No one's gonna care about them for more than 10 seconds. If cosmetics are all we're get from it, at the very least it should be decent armor sets and syandanas, maybe weapon skins - something you can actually show off.

-It's not for people who want to optimize their builds to farm more efficiently in a more demanding setting.

Mod drop chance and resource drop chance boosters aren't gonna cut it. The people who are most interested in a hard mode are, as far as I can tell, mostly people who already have all the resources and mods they care to have.

Resource drop chance could have some use if arbies were included, but they aren't. So, what are the things those people farm? Relics, void traces, kuva, vitus. Steel Path is no improvement over normal mode for any of these.

And people who want affinity/still need crafting resources... will also he better off in normal mode. Why bother when the higher killing speed in normal mode makes up for the gains in Steel Path?

 

Personally, I don't really care which way it ends up leaning - as long as it tries to satisfy at least one group. The worst thing it can happen is the mode not appealing to anyone - then it'll be content that's either ignored or finished like a chore and then pushed aside.

On a side note - can we have a 'full squad spawnrate when solo' as a separate option instead of it being tied into Steel Path? People have been asking for it for ages, and not necessarily for any of the reasons mentioned above. It's just a good option to have, regardless of difficulty/rewards/whatever

[844448]

37 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You mean "people outside the clique that just wants it as a "challenge""? It is a very very small portion of the playerbase that will use this mode just for the "challenge" of it.

Isn't this similar to universal medallion not available for conclave because of one player saying it shouldn't work for conclave?

39 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm deffinently going to leave early, since I'll only use it to level stuff after the mastery is obtained from it. So if that means it will take me 5 instead of 10 boosted wave I'll be out after wave 5.

Sure, feel free to leave after wave 5 and let those who want to push through high level have their thing without getting disturbed by leeches that sit in a corner to leech exp and resources and being an annoyance when no one revive said tenno because it's a burden to keep that one alive

44 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

So then it isnt just about the shortcut that several of you claimed. Since it isnt a shortcut if you cant reach the same point manually in the first place. Which is the reason why the whole "it's a shortcut!" argument fails.

The way you reach high level is by spending almost an hour to reach that in endless, which for one not my thing so having the whole star chart means I can fight any faction on any mission instead of wasting an hour in endless

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Isn't this similar to universal medallion not available for conclave because of one player saying it shouldn't work for conclave?

Sure, feel free to leave after wave 5 and let those who want to push through high level have their thing without getting disturbed by leeches that sit in a corner to leech exp and resources and being an annoyance when no one revive said tenno because it's a burden to keep that one alive

The way you reach high level is by spending almost an hour to reach that in endless, which for one not my thing so having the whole star chart means I can fight any faction on any mission instead of wasting an hour in endless

The medallion isnt a piece of content that took dev time and resources over something else. It is also the opposite, since it was restricted from 1 thing which kept the use of it intact to 90% anyways i.e the bigger part of the playerbase. Here the few instead want things only for those few, the clique, the unique, the special, the "challenge" seekers.

So leaving at wave 5 now makes people leeches or simply bad players? How are those things even connected? It is about efficiency and not spending more time than needed on each forma.

That still doesnt mean that the mode was designed just for the endless shortcut, since at that point they could have skipped all other nodes, since they wont be used except once for the mastery eitherway given they dont have updated drop tables. What reason is there to run +100 Hepit for lith relics or +100 Ukko for Meso/Neo when the capture target will have several times more ehp based on both the natural baseline tankyness of capture targets, the scaling from level and the 2x armor or shields from steel path?

[Jarriaga]

4 hours ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

I'll agree it's mandatory if, and only if, DE stops making new weapons and warframes the moment non-founders can reach MR30, and we've got plenty left to prime (or hell, Umbra.)  Still waiting on them Corpus and infested(?) "liches" and railjack missions too.

Then you already agree with me since I had already posted that exact opinion earlier than your quote:

15 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

So unless you then wish to present the argument that whatever it is that hides behind MR30 is optional, anything that gives mastery is not optional.  At least not until enough excess mastery is made available in the future as to completely ignore the 27,051 tied to this mode and still be able to hit MR30.

[Jarriaga]

6 hours ago, 32768 said:

If this is the only holdup for hard mode, can they just remove mastery points from hard mode? Would anyone be against this?

Personally, I see the extra mastery as a pleasant surprise because I didn't expect it and it gets me closer to MR30. I was going to play hard mode anyway just because of the higher enemy levels, which is exactly what I wanted ever since its announcement back on May 8th. But just because I am fine with there being mastery doesn't mean I see the "hard mode is optional" argument in a good light. It's not true because of the mastery and will not be true until enough excess mastery exists in the game as to still allow you fully ignore the mastery here and still hit MR30.

So I'm fine if they keep it or if they remove it. I just have an issue with people saying that it's optional.

My only problem with the mode is that Kuva remains the same as in normal mode. Starting Kuva Disruption at level 140 and only going up from there while still awarding 350 Kuva per C rotation is a massive deal breaker for leaving the toggle on.  There's nothing else for me to do in the game other than perfect my Rivens (To my playstyle) and normal mode will remain significantly better, faster and more efficient for that. 

That ultimately means going back and forth between modes for me and many others. That's where DE dropped the ball in my opinion. 

[Kingdom_key599]

First and for most... I did see what the rewards are and I'm very much so not impressed and even looking forward to the game mode.

So yes we understand that this will be good for the players who want to shave off multiple hours of gameplay just to try and get a chance of fighting harder enemies. That's great and all, but how does getting Emotes and or Decorations represent the time spent into completing a planets mission nodes... not very much if I'm going to be honest.

Firstly we need to generalize that the current rewards that are in hard mode (including from drops) are sub par at best, and in my opinion are not worth the time. So we need to give D.E some idea's on what should be offered not just from the drop tables but also for completing the planet in question.

Some ideas may be:

-New Armor Sets or parts that look appealing and new to the game not re-skins of existing armor.

-New Syandanas that look appealing and new to the game not re-skins of existing ones.

-Umbral Forma Because currently this forma is only tied to Nightwave making it worth the time to actually grind them out in hard mode missions (however the drop chance for this cannot be too ludicrously low it has to be more then 2% for a rare drop) would be nice since there is a portion of the community that doesn't enjoy Nightwave.

-The Previously Mentioned Alternate Prime Helmets. As it stands currently, the only primed frame that has an Alt. Prime Helmet is Mesa, this would be a great opportunity to include them here as we can then farm new primed helmets for our favorite primes.

-Operator Cosmetics are also welcome.

-Arcanes. This would be mainly for those who have yet to complete their Arcane sets. We can have arcane drops added to rotations (however the drop chance for this cannot be too ludicrously low it has to be more then 2% for a rare drop) this would give an alternative to farming Tridolons and what not for example,(however Exodias and similar Arcanes remain within the boundaries of Cetus and Fortuna) the only other alt. for this one was whatever Scarlet Spear was a couple of months ago.

These additions on top of the current statues and emotes would for sure make the game mode all the more worth it, I was just thinking of rewards off the top of my head, but yes for sure I can say with confidence that not only do I need harder content but I also need worth while rewards from that harder content. This is a good opportunity for D.E to make a good game mode, but once again they are not making rewards worth it, hence why the input.

[844448]

35 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The speed of WF is a moped racing a motorcycle when compared to the speed potential of a few other games in the genre. WF may seem superfast, except that when we move we move, that is pretty much it. While in PoE, D3, old Marvel Heroes, TL2 and even GD we can actually move and kill, kill and move, move, kill and move some more and kill some more at very high speed efficiency.

Wait, you guys aren't killing enemies while moving?

37 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

We still have rarity and star rating on items, it is just called mastery here and higher rarity of a weapon just comes as a new weapon instead most of the time, or as a different weapon that works the same

 

Which doesn't make lower rarity obsolete and I'm happy with that because I can still use my braton to wipe level 100+

[Loza03]

11 hours ago, 844448 said:

Hey, warframe itself is probably the only game that isn't in the mold of any game. OP power to break the universe to dust, no rarity/star/rating based gear, super fast movement instead of slow, asthmatic character running through the place, etc

Addressing the last point first:

There's no real need to use that speed in combat. Even though Scout from TF2 is much slower (I calculated the speed of an unmodded bullet jump/roll combo to be about 20 meters per second or so, whilst scout's base speed is 7.62 m/s) you can't actually fight at those speeds. At that 20 m/s speed, you can't actually shoot, since the bullet jump and roll animations take precedence, and for good speed you want to hit the ground to reset your mobility, thus bullet jumping again soon afterwards. As such, this is our 'movement' speed, not our combat speed. You likewise can't shoot whilst sprinting, which is more variable, but a 1.00, 'average' speed warframe (Revenant), I calculated to be 7.6 meters per second (amusingly, the base sprint speed for Destiny 2's Guardians is 7.8 m/s). You can, however, fight at just bullet jump speed, minus the roll. That's even more variable than sprint, but lets say at base around 13 meters per second - since an unmodded Bullet Jump goes about that far and takes about a second to complete. It should be noted, however, that you do not have full control as you're at the mercy of momentum, so this is definitely in the risk/reward end of the combat speed. The speed at which you have full control is about 6.25 meters per second which is... slower than Master Chief in Halo 1 (about 6.8 meters per second). Aim Down Sights is even slower (2.9m/s), although fortunately you can gain those advantages with bullet jumping.

Meanwhile, bringing it all back to TF2's Scout, that 7.62 meters per second IS his combat speed, as well as his movement speed. Which not only makes my job much easier, but also calls into question if Warframe's gameplay really is 'superfast' - because for as fast as our 'movement' speed is, our speed in actual combat is much more normal, with at best spikes of very linear high speed, and above-average for 'normal' combat. A lot of the games on the market I imagine you're comparing it to are relatively new - Warframe is old-school, not unique.

 

And this is all ignoring one other pretty major elephant in the room - the other point of note, our 'OP power to break the universe to dust' makes all of this irrelevant, because going that fast to begin with is actually a pretty sub-optimal play. Many of the most powerful Warframes fare better by standing still and letting the enemy come to them whilst they get nuked to oblivion, or render speed pointless because they're invincible, invisible, the enemy is functionally motionless etc, which really calls into question the entire premise of a super-fast shooter to begin with - and quite frankly, the premise of being a shooter. Being unique is not always good.

[844448]

20 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

So leaving at wave 5 now makes people leeches or simply bad players? How are those things even connected? It is about efficiency and not spending more time than needed on each forma.

Did I say it like that? If you want to leave at wave 5 feel free, but for others that just there for the sake of leeching? It's going to be an annoyance

22 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That still doesnt mean that the mode was designed just for the endless shortcut, since at that point they could have skipped all other nodes, since they wont be used except once for the mastery eitherway given they dont have updated drop tables. What reason is there to run +100 Hepit for lith relics or +100 Ukko for Meso/Neo when the capture target will have several times more ehp based on both the natural baseline tankyness of capture targets, the scaling from level and the 2x armor or shields from steel path?

For one, it's a good place to test how well your build is and a nice test for those "meta" builds if it's really great or not and I'm going to use it to find out how far I can push my gears from a to z

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, 844448 said:

Wait, you guys aren't killing enemies while moving?

 

Which doesn't make lower rarity obsolete and I'm happy with that because I can still use my braton to wipe level 100+

Sure we kill on the move, but not at all at the same pace as you can in those other games. The point is that speed isnt something defining or exlusive to WF, here speed is more of a thing to just ignore the enemy as we go for the needed objectives.

The braton would still be considered obsolete if you are looking for efficiency, which is the reason you upgrade to higher rarities in other games. I can still wipe out GR70+ with a normal unique scythe as a Necro, however it is obsolete compared to an ancient or primal ancient version of it. In the end it comes down to the same concept really.

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Did I say it like that? If you want to leave at wave 5 feel free, but for others that just there for the sake of leeching? It's going to be an annoyance

For one, it's a good place to test how well your build is and a nice test for those "meta" builds if it's really great or not and I'm going to use it to find out how far I can push my gears from a to z

The way you said it made it sound like it.

Yes, the mode may be great for that as a whole, but my point was regarding one-off missions, people will never use those for anything outside of getting the mastery. Hence why it feels pointless to have the one-off missions increased in level since they will be ghost towns because they fill no use in the game aslong as they have the old loot tables etc. Those that are going to use steel path as a testing ground will do so in endless since they provide you with several minutes more of testing time potential.

[Hypernaut1]

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

The way you said it made it sound like it.

Yes, the mode may be great for that as a whole, but my point was regarding one-off missions, people will never use those for anything outside of getting the mastery. Hence why it feels pointless to have the one-off missions increased in level since they will be ghost towns because they fill no use in the game aslong as they have the old loot tables etc. Those that are going to use steel path as a testing ground will do so in endless since they provide you with several minutes more of testing time potential.

You talk as if people are playing random starchart missions now. 

[SneakyErvin]

7 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

You talk as if people are playing random starchart missions now. 

Random? No quite specific ones as I mentioned above. Which will be 100% pointless to play in steel path since they will simply be slower and reward less. We just wont be able to effectively farm relics in harder versions since it will be a massive gimping of efficiency, which is the whole point of currently running those specific fast mission on the current star chart. There are just so many flaws with this hard mode implementation that it will likely be another abandoned content addition shortly after release since it simply cannot sustain itself to the wider part of the community because it will gimp reward gain by not even having it on par with normal.

[Hypernaut1]

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Random? No quite specific ones as I mentioned above. Which will be 100% pointless to play in steel path since they will simply be slower and reward less. We just wont be able to effectively farm relics in harder versions since it will be a massive gimping of efficiency, which is the whole point of currently running those specific fast mission on the current star chart. There are just so many flaws with this hard mode implementation that it will likely be another abandoned content addition shortly after release since it simply cannot sustain itself to the wider part of the community because it will gimp reward gain by not even having it on par with normal.

Speak for yourself. 

I'll gladly run hardmode missions to crack relics (if they are in hardmode). I'm playing for fun, not efficiency. 

As long as hard mode can modify most of the missions I normally do when i log on, I'll be opting to play that way. That's the whole point. 

 

[PookieNumnums]

1 hour ago, vFlitz said:

The more I look at this, the more I don't know just who the heck is supposed to the target audience for this mode. And if it's not going to satisfy anyone, clearly it needs some changes?

- It's not for people who just want the option to skip an hour of scaling and get high level enemies for fun

If it was, there would be no need to go through the entire starchart again to unlock every node.

The sortie modifiers are also questionable here, as they're not representative of what you face in most of the game. If enemies are too squishy without them, why not just increase the level more? At least then players can actually tell what they're up against instead of the information being muddled.

And the point of mastery that others bring up is a fair one, I think. No matter if you care about or not, it ties Steel Path into the game's progression which does make it objectively less optional.

-It's not for people who want a challenge mode that gives good/cool rewards

Simply put, the emotes and decorations are pretty much the most minimum effort stuff that could have been thrown together just so people can't say there's no rewards at all. No one's gonna care about them for more than 10 seconds. If cosmetics are all we're get from it, at the very least it should be decent armor sets and syandanas, maybe weapon skins - something you can actually show off.

-It's not for people who want to optimize their builds to farm more efficiently in a more demanding setting.

Mod drop chance and resource drop chance boosters aren't gonna cut it. The people who are most interested in a hard mode are, as far as I can tell, mostly people who already have all the resources and mods they care to have.

Resource drop chance could have some use if arbies were included, but they aren't. So, what are the things those people farm? Relics, void traces, kuva, vitus. Steel Path is no improvement over normal mode for any of these.

And people who want affinity/still need crafting resources... will also he better off in normal mode. Why bother when the higher killing speed in normal mode makes up for the gains in Steel Path?

 

Personally, I don't really care which way it ends up leaning - as long as it tries to satisfy at least one group. The worst thing it can happen is the mode not appealing to anyone - then it'll be content that's either ignored or finished like a chore and then pushed aside.

On a side note - can we have a 'full squad spawnrate when solo' as a separate option instead of it being tied into Steel Path? People have been asking for it for ages, and not necessarily for any of the reasons mentioned above. It's just a good option to have, regardless of difficulty/rewards/whatever

Thankfully we dont have to actually unlock anything in order. All missions will be available for us to recomplete at our leisure. 

Lets also not forget, unrelated to the quoted post of course, that a) the fissures have stacking boosters the longer you stay and b) many players like myself have such incredible stockpiles of resources that boosted or not, resources have become trivial in both cost and reward scenarios. 

They really should have put some op stuff for hardmode rewards. Let the whiners whine. If you want the gear, get gud or learn to meta. 

 

[Aadi880]

il y a 5 minutes, PookieNumnums a dit :

Thankfully we dont have to actually unlock anything in order. All missions will be available for us to recomplete at our leisure. 

 

Le 27/06/2020 à 04:36, Jarriaga a dit :

You can start on Earth or in the Kuva Fortress, can not do any planet in any order.

 

[PookieNumnums]

21 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Speak for yourself. 

I'll gladly run hardmode missions to crack relics (if they are in hardmode). I'm playing for fun, not efficiency. 

As long as hard mode can modify most of the missions I normally do when i log on, I'll be opting to play that way. That's the whole point. 

 

I believe he is talking about farming relics not cracking them. 

To clarify, if the enemies take 5x longer to kill with their double shield and armor or whatever, then cracking a relic during an extermination or capture may take longer, because the act of killing enough corrupted to get those reactant simply takes longer. So, getting the reward is less efficient in hardmode, especially if you have limited time to play and are trying to farm ducats for baro or a certain item, or whatever. 

That said, it doesnt change how long you have to wait for survival so life support complications aside, relic cracking should take the same amount of time.

Edit: i don't think fissures will have hard mode. Farming relics from missions could also take longer except in the same scenarios where timers rule and kill counts drool. 

 

Lastly, the efficiency vs fun argument is a silly one. Some players play to play. Some have objectives theyd like to complete with limited time to do it. 

Both are valid, and real. 

However, being both efficient and fun doesnt break any rules, so as it generally goes in games new stuff should have new goodies and make players feel "wow, that was fun and totally worth my time, lets do it again."

 

What im worried about is how this is going to affect toxicicty levels in random games. Or in recruiting chat. 

LF specific frame and loadout with specific builds and if you dont perform the way i expect you to ill either rage quit or insult you etc type of people. 

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Speak for yourself. 

I'll gladly run hardmode missions to crack relics (if they are in hardmode). I'm playing for fun, not efficiency. 

As long as hard mode can modify most of the missions I normally do when i log on, I'll be opting to play that way. That's the whole point. 

 

And you are also in a minority when it comes to these types of games. Efficiency is what most of us build around, that is what makes min-maxing fun etc. since it lets you improve your reward vs time. I dont understand the bullheadedness in being against balanced rewards (which is all we ask for in the end) since it would have no impact on your experience but would have massive impact on the experience of several others in a positive way. Is this done because you don a ivory suit of full plate armor or because you just want to argue or possibly just dont understand the concept of what we ask for?

It is also not about cracking relics (well it is since the same rules apply to cracking as obtaining really), it is about obtaining relics, which will be several times slower on hard versions of the currently most optimal missions. Survival is the only mode that will effectively be balanced when it comes to obtaining relics and cracking them, since it is based on static 5 minute intervals that cannot be impacted by player efficiency or inefficiency. Every single other mode will be alot slower due to increased TTK while having the same reward yield/mission or rotation. It is quite simple math.

[Felsagger]

10 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And you are also in a minority when it comes to these types of games. Efficiency is what most of us build around, that is what makes min-maxing fun etc. since it lets you improve your reward vs time. I dont understand the bullheadedness in being against balanced rewards (which is all we ask for in the end) since it would have no impact on your experience but would have massive impact on the experience of several others in a positive way. Is this done because you don a ivory suit of full plate armor or because you just want to argue or possibly just dont understand the concept of what we ask for?

It is also not about cracking relics (well it is since the same rules apply to cracking as obtaining really), it is about obtaining relics, which will be several times slower on hard versions of the currently most optimal missions. Survival is the only mode that will effectively be balanced when it comes to obtaining relics and cracking them, since it is based on static 5 minute intervals that cannot be impacted by player efficiency or inefficiency. Every single other mode will be alot slower due to increased TTK while having the same reward yield/mission or rotation. It is quite simple math.

 

Yep. 

 

Survival is one of the simplest ideas that works the best for the game. The time gate is the same, the speed is the same ant the RNG is fair. This is the oldest mode in the game that remained strong. It is strong today and fun. This horde mode could improve even more if DE is interested of adding newer encounters. As it is the survival mode provides everything for everyone. It can be a quick gain or a hard endurance run. 

I think DE should look on the best tools that survived throughout the seven years. Survival is one of them. I think this game mode is quite good for gear testing and synergy practice with other team mates. Even organized game play happens here between the rooster of frames. 

[SneakyErvin]

7 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

 

Yep. 

 

Survival is one of the simplest ideas that works the best for the game. The time gate is the same, the speed is the same ant the RNG is fair. This is the oldest mode in the game that remained strong. It is strong today and fun. This horde mode could improve even more if DE is interested of adding newer encounters. As it is the survival mode provides everything for everyone. It can be a quick gain or a hard endurance run. 

I think DE should look on the best tools that survived throughout the seven years. Survival is one of them. I think this game mode is quite good for gear testing and synergy practice with other team mates. Even organized game play happens here between the rooster of frames. 

After some thinking. Interception probably fits the bill as balanced aswell between normal/hard since mob levels have very little impact on the outcome of the mode, it is more of a player skill issue if things go slow, which has the same chance of happening in normal.

And yeah, survival is definently the best to test in, it is easily accessible and killing is the business and that business is mostly good. And a big benefit of survival is that it allowes for a very wide meta that more comes down to player understanding of a frame rather than the pure benefits the specific frame has vs the encounter at hand.

[Rakosta_Kai]

On 2020-06-26 at 3:53 PM, Jarriaga said:

Which is what they had initially advertised when announced back on May 8th.

My only point of contention is Kuva. It doesn't seem to be scaled, making normal mode better. Other than that I'm happy.

Sounds like it is amounting to what it was supposed to be to begin with for the most part.

Now DE will need to find a way to balance rewards and drop rates between the two modes over time comfortably and without hurting their revenue generation. 

[Felsagger]

48 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

After some thinking. Interception probably fits the bill as balanced aswell between normal/hard since mob levels have very little impact on the outcome of the mode, it is more of a player skill issue if things go slow, which has the same chance of happening in normal.

And yeah, survival is definently the best to test in, it is easily accessible and killing is the business and that business is mostly good. And a big benefit of survival is that it allowes for a very wide meta that more comes down to player understanding of a frame rather than the pure benefits the specific frame has vs the encounter at hand.

Interception is another great game mode. Zephyr, Hildryn and Titania Prime finds business there. Some of these modes are perfect for a vast majority of frames without dictating any meta whatsoever. Interception, Survival, Exterminate are the best ones. Exterminates should add more enemies in quantities. This is the 'all out war' of the game. These game modes are the pillars of War Frame. They never failed. On the contrary, they got better with time. 

I wish there will be newer levels for these because it doesn't matter where you put these modes, they work fairly well. Basic stuff of the game with improvements send the game towards the best pastures. I'll work in a list and few things that remains solid in the game throughout the years. I think few details will put this game in the right rails. 

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Felsagger said:

Interception is another great game mode. Zephyr, Hildryn and Titania Prime finds business there. Some of these modes are perfect for a vast majority of frames without dictating any meta whatsoever. Interception, Survival, Exterminate are the best ones. Exterminates should add more enemies in quantities. This is the 'all out war' of the game. These game modes are the pillars of War Frame. They never failed. On the contrary, they got better with time. 

I wish there will be newer levels for these because it doesn't matter where you put these modes, they work fairly well. Basic stuff of the game with improvements send the game towards the best pastures. I'll work in a list and few things that remains solid in the game throughout the years. I think few details will put this game in the right rails. 

One thing I'd like to see both for survival and interception would be "boss waves", a full rotation dedicated to heavy units, bosses and mini-bosses (kind like liches or the mobs in index) only. To balance those 5 minutes in survival the life support drops would be increased from those mobs. They would of course need to rework some bosses so they fit outside of their "lair" and the mechanics tied to it.

But imagine Kela and Tyl Regor popping up as a tag team at rotation B in survival backed up by heavy gunners, bombards, bailifs, some kuva lich-like mini-bosses and some noxes among other stuff. Maybe it would be overkill for the normal map, but it would be perfect for a hard mode. Add in that all heavy units are also eximus and it could be a hoot.

[Felsagger]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

One thing I'd like to see both for survival and interception would be "boss waves", a full rotation dedicated to heavy units, bosses and mini-bosses (kind like liches or the mobs in index) only. To balance those 5 minutes in survival the life support drops would be increased from those mobs. They would of course need to rework some bosses so they fit outside of their "lair" and the mechanics tied to it.

But imagine Kela and Tyl Regor popping up as a tag team at rotation B in survival backed up by heavy gunners, bombards, bailifs, some kuva lich-like mini-bosses and some noxes among other stuff. Maybe it would be overkill for the normal map, but it would be perfect for a hard mode. Add in that all heavy units are also eximus and it could be a hoot.

Those are good suggestions. Moreover, the assets of the game are already available. The only thing DE will do is to simply spawn them in certain rotations. 

It's in there that such ideas can prosper. You leave the rest of the game as is and add those options on game the game modes. Hard and ultra hard should add these. That's why it was a good decision the inclusion of those difficulty settings. Other modes will be kept the same dealing with the looting and the hordes that many players enjoy. 

If the game attains variety, it get stronger and veterans comes back at it for the thrills and rewards. Careful planning on these game modes will not alter the structure of the game. The player keeps playing the Warframe game they like with the addition of these. 

Anything that makes the grind better is a win for the game.