Why does everyone NOT want better rewards for Hard Mode.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

6 minutes ago, 844448 said:

I give you this

 

Some nice ideas there. I'd also add get rid of ciphers being allowed because they make things much easier with the sheer speed you can blitz through map areas. I like your emphasis on low profile, stealth play, to date the hardest thing I've done in Warframe was Tavier Corsair Adaro challenge AFTER the Gauss update that made grineer hyper aware. And that was all about keeping a low profile, being meticulous, aware etc but you also had to be rapid. The demolyst idea for defense waves is particularly good, kind've like the original Shadow debt event where we had to defend Alad V and every 5th wave brought a mini boss.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

Do you play video games? 

 

DE can use LUA and program bosses that one shot any frame despite their build. They are the developers. They are the poppet masters. They don't have to go throughout more gimping. They can deliver stronger enemies immune to our powers. 

 

Sorry but only you believe in that joke. 

Basics. So bosses with long invulnerability periods is good design? 

If we could one shot enemies why can't enemies one shot us? 

Oh yes, there are many snowflakes who are going to demand that such bosses get downgraded.

These are tasks not challenges. For such tasks you get certain rewards. 

You invented that definition out of nowhere. 

 

All of that comes down to balance and power creep. Adding 1-shot mechanics is not a good way to balance things to counter power creep, you reduce the power and scale things properly.

I guess you also missed the part where I said "most part" even though you again highlighted it in your favorite bold. Most does not mean all.

Reason bosses/enemies cant 1HK us is because it would be bad design, which is what you yourself say we shouldnt have. Yet here you sit and advocate it to try and disprove that most WF bosses are actually well designed and fail simply because they do not scale and are stuck at trivial low levels. They can add graphed attacks, but that doesnt matter when the boss is 1HKed due to our power and being stuck as a low level gate keeper.

Again, tasks are a form of challenge, since they demand you to prove yourself in a certain way, no matter how trivial it is.

"Out of nowhere" is now another name for "english dictionairy" or "google". Good to know.

[Felsagger]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

All of that comes down to balance and power creep. Adding 1-shot mechanics is not a good way to balance things to counter power creep, you reduce the power and scale things properly.

There 43 normal War Frames

and 29 prime frames. 

 

We had seven years seeing DE doing that. Are you going to try reduce power and scale things properly of all those frames?. No seriously, are you out of your mind? 

Quote

I guess you also missed the part where I said "most part" even though you again highlighted it in your favorite bold. Most does not mean all.

Wait. NO Boss in this game IS well designed. There is NONE. 

Quote

Reason bosses/enemies cant 1HK us is because it would be bad design

But is not considered bad design when we almost one shot bosses? 

Quote

, which is what you yourself say we shouldnt have.

Significant damage and one shot attacks should be readable when bosses perform certain moves. Devastating attacks must be unpredictable but if a war frame gets hit he doesn't go down but a significant portion of shields and health are taken down. 

War Frames has regenerative shield and health. Bosses can repeat devastating attacks since we have chances for a survival. 

Quote

Yet here you sit and advocate it to try and disprove that most WF bosses are actually well designed

Sorry, none of these WF bosses reaches common standards as boss fights. None. 

Quote

and fail simply because they do not scale and are stuck at trivial low levels.

You simply don't know what is a good boss fight.  

Let me show you. 

Bosses dodge attacks. 

Bosses perform fatal blows that are impossible to parry. 

Bosses react to certain attacks and use the skill tool in combinations. 

Bosses have initiative and tracking for pursuit. Yes they have pursuit curve mechanics in them. 

Some bosses regenerates if they are left alone without being attacked with attested hits. 

Quote

They can add graphed attacks, but that doesnt matter when the boss is 1HKed due to our power and being stuck as a low level gate keeper.

Bosses can be scaled up with a good amount of health and regenerative shields. Bosses can't be designed so no frame no matter how powerful it is can't 1 hit them. 

 

Quote

Again, tasks are a form of challenge, since they demand you to prove yourself in a certain way, no matter how trivial it is.

Task are missions. They are not challenges. Why? These are instructions that the player excecute. 

Example. 

Task: Kill 150 enemies with secondary. 

Challenge: kill 150 enemies in less than 20 minutes. 

Quote

"Out of nowhere" is now another name for "english dictionairy" or "google". Good to know.

If you introduce a term made by you, then define it. If you introduce three parameters such as hard mode, challenge and difficulty go on and define them. 

Hard mode includes challenge and difficulty

In a fixed level of difficulty there is a degree of challenge. 

A challenge could be completed or failed. 

 

[Morthal]

On 2020-07-23 at 7:17 PM, BernieBlack said:

Seriously, it's baffling.

Simp culture? 
Many folks around here that don't value themselves or their time I suppose.

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

15 hours ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Oh I'd love more challenge but honestly that won't ever happen unless they improve the enemy Ai. Enemies are still easy to 1 shot in Steel Path, bosses still takes mere seconds to beat.. sigh. I'd honestly rather more engaging content than more rewards but that's just me.

Its been said already that better Ai won't fix the problems the game has. It'd be cool of it got tweaked, but thats not the answer we really need.

[SneakyErvin]

Spoiler

15 hours ago, Felsagger said:

There 43 normal War Frames

and 29 prime frames. 

 

We had seven years seeing DE doing that. Are you going to try reduce power and scale things properly of all those frames?. No seriously, are you out of your mind? 

Wait. NO Boss in this game IS well designed. There is NONE. 

But is not considered bad design when we almost one shot bosses? 

Significant damage and one shot attacks should be readable when bosses perform certain moves. Devastating attacks must be unpredictable but if a war frame gets hit he doesn't go down but a significant portion of shields and health are taken down. 

War Frames has regenerative shield and health. Bosses can repeat devastating attacks since we have chances for a survival. 

Sorry, none of these WF bosses reaches common standards as boss fights. None. 

You simply don't know what is a good boss fight.  

Let me show you. 

Bosses dodge attacks. 

Bosses perform fatal blows that are impossible to parry. 

Bosses react to certain attacks and use the skill tool in combinations. 

Bosses have initiative and tracking for pursuit. Yes they have pursuit curve mechanics in them. 

Some bosses regenerates if they are left alone without being attacked with attested hits. 

Bosses can be scaled up with a good amount of health and regenerative shields. Bosses can't be designed so no frame no matter how powerful it is can't 1 hit them. 

 

Task are missions. They are not challenges. Why? These are instructions that the player excecute. 

Example. 

Task: Kill 150 enemies with secondary. 

Challenge: kill 150 enemies in less than 20 minutes. 

If you introduce a term made by you, then define it. If you introduce three parameters such as hard mode, challenge and difficulty go on and define them. 

Hard mode includes challenge and difficulty

In a fixed level of difficulty there is a degree of challenge. 

A challenge could be completed or failed. 

 

We have 43 frames, simple as that. 29 of them being primes doesnt matter, since they are still part of the 43 total frames since they share the power of abilities 1:1, exception being Umbra's Howl, which is slightly different when it comes to use. So in total that would be 43 frames that need balancing, not 72 which you seem to imply by bringing up primes as seperates when discussing balance. So it isnt alot. Given that another game with 70 unique playable characters made a total system and character overhaul, where each character had 3 seperate talent trees reworked along with 18 (iirc) passives spread over 6 tiers added, in roughly the time span of a year. Here we talk about changing numbers and some rules.

Several bosses here are actually really well made when compared to both trinity games aswell as arpgs and other looter shooters. And it is bad design that we 1HK them, but that is rooted in bad balance, rampant power creep and bosses being stuck at their low levels forever. And yes the bosses do reach standard, but again you are looking at single player games.

Bosses can very easily be designed so we cant 1HK them, it is already in the game on some enemies and bosses. It is called adding a damage cap. Not really rocket surgery to add such a thing in order to counter power creep. I also do know what a good boss fight is since I've experienced them now over 20 years or so in different games, be it trinity bosses (small group and raids), solo player encounters, non-trinity system bosses (solo and raids) or whatever. I've experienced the good and the bad ones, often both in the same game.

Examples: GW2 Dragons, horrible horrible open world non-trinity bosses, so very bad it turned into chores doing them, unfun, static and with cheese mechanics. Then you had GW2 bosses like Grenth, another open world raid boss that was some of the most fun I've ever had in a game. Top notch design. Then at the same time the game was filled with a multitude of hit and miss encounters, sometime within the same dungeon. Where you looked forward to some boss but knew you had to fight the snoozefest one at some point in order to finish. 

Then there is WoW, great encounters with pretty much all bosses. Even solo "bosses" were great that were sometimes part of the quests. Many were similar to WF bosses in mechanics, though they had alot of graphed attack. The major difference though was that they were actually designed with balance in mind since the game had far more balanced gearing. One thing WF likely lacks in the design process that many other games have is a simple little thing called "item budget", this mean that items cant be turned into OP things since they must abide the rules of the budget. In WF is it likely more of a "wing it" situation. Hence why damage is ofter either too low or too high on new frames.

And again, task, missions or what you wanna call it are challenges. They tell us to prove ourselves by doing something. And I'm not differentiating hard, difficult and challenge, I'm differentiating, hard, difficult and challenging.

Something can for instance be hard or difficult to obtain, due to low drop rate. That doesnt mean it is challenging to get, since you cant improve yourself to overcome the RNG aspect. It doesnt really test you etc or push you to your limits. A boss can also be hard or difficult, but that doesnt mean it is challenging, since it may very well be something you cannot improve by personally getting better. Secret World Legends for example has a boss you fight on a bridge, he is a pure gear check, since if you dont have the gear the bridge will catch on fire before the boss is killed and fry you to crispy bits. The boss isnt challenging though. Another example would be one of the bosses in ESO, you simply need to move him around the room as the tank while you hold aggro, if you stand still you'll start burning, while aslong as you move him he'll cover the floor with fire. Also just hard/difficult fight based on gear, it is however not challenging. And that goes on for most bosses, they may be hard/difficult but they arent challenging since it's just simple knowledge and gear checks.

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

  Reveal hidden contents

We have 43 frames, simple as that. 29 of them being primes doesnt matter, since they are still part of the 43 total frames since they share the power of abilities 1:1, exception being Umbra's Howl, which is slightly different when it comes to use. So in total that would be 43 frames that need balancing, not 72 which you seem to imply by bringing up primes as seperates when discussing balance. So it isnt alot. Given that another game with 70 unique playable characters made a total system and character overhaul, where each character had 3 seperate talent trees reworked along with 18 (iirc) passives spread over 6 tiers added, in roughly the time span of a year. Here we talk about changing numbers and some rules.

The reasoning of 43-29 doesn't work. Old frames and prime frames has different approaches in their powers they are reworks of the old ones. Some are revisions, other are different takes on certain parameters defining different builds. 

 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Several bosses here are actually really well made when compared to both trinity games aswell as arpgs and other looter shooters. And it is bad design that we 1HK them, but that is rooted in bad balance, rampant power creep and bosses being stuck at their low levels forever. And yes the bosses do reach standard, but again you are looking at single player games.

False.

The bosses are designed below the standards. Ads and timed invulnerability is a sign of cheap design. Current bosses challenge the wits of players. These bosses are nothing more than pinatas waiting for shots. They don't have any defensive maneuvers. An example is the marauder in Doom Eternal. Good boss design makes the player think in position, priority, preferences and preservation. No boss in War Frame stress the player enough for only preservation. Bosses in War Frames are incidental and events that are simply fillers. 

 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Bosses can very easily be designed so we cant 1HK them, it is already in the game on some enemies and bosses. It is called adding a damage cap. Not really rocket surgery to add such a thing in order to counter power creep. I also do know what a good boss fight is since I've experienced them now over 20 years or so in different games, be it trinity bosses (small group and raids), solo player encounters, non-trinity system bosses (solo and raids) or whatever. I've experienced the good and the bad ones, often both in the same game.

Examples: GW2 Dragons, horrible horrible open world non-trinity bosses, so very bad it turned into chores doing them, unfun, static and with cheese mechanics. Then you had GW2 bosses like Grenth, another open world raid boss that was some of the most fun I've ever had in a game. Top notch design. Then at the same time the game was filled with a multitude of hit and miss encounters, sometime within the same dungeon. Where you looked forward to some boss but knew you had to fight the snoozefest one at some point in order to finish. 

Limb system design is an effective approach that was used in Horizon Zero Dawn. Even the sephalites uses the limb system for particular damage. 

Don't speak about experience you don't have. You haven't played Dark Souls, Horizon Zero Dawn, Daemon Souls, Sekiro or Blood Borne. Boss design has particular parameters that were already discussed in the previous post. Read. 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Then there is WoW, great encounters with pretty much all bosses. Even solo "bosses" were great that were sometimes part of the quests. Many were similar to WF bosses in mechanics, though they had alot of graphed attack. The major difference though was that they were actually designed with balance in mind since the game had far more balanced gearing. One thing WF likely lacks in the design process that many other games have is a simple little thing called "item budget", this mean that items cant be turned into OP things since they must abide the rules of the budget. In WF is it likely more of a "wing it" situation. Hence why damage is ofter either too low or too high on new frames.

Problem with this reasoning: 

WoW IS NOT Warframe. 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

And again, task, missions or what you wanna call it are challenges. They tell us to prove ourselves by doing something. And I'm not differentiating hard, difficult and challenge, I'm differentiating, hard, difficult and challenging.

False. 

There is a difference between a task and challenge in video games. One factor is stress testing. 

 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Something can for instance be hard or difficult to obtain, due to low drop rate. That doesnt mean it is challenging to get, since you cant improve yourself to overcome the RNG aspect. It doesnt really test you etc or push you to your limits. A boss can also be hard or difficult, but that doesnt mean it is challenging, since it may very well be something you cannot improve by personally getting better.

Problem with this reasoning: 

Every boss encounter by definition has a degree of difficulty, challenge under a Hard mode rubric. 

 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Secret World Legends for example has a boss you fight on a bridge, he is a pure gear check, since if you dont have the gear the bridge will catch on fire before the boss is killed and fry you to crispy bits. The boss isnt challenging though. Another example would be one of the bosses in ESO, you simply need to move him around the room as the tank while you hold aggro, if you stand still you'll start burning, while aslong as you move him he'll cover the floor with fire. Also just hard/difficult fight based on gear, it is however not challenging. And that goes on for most bosses, they may be hard/difficult but they arent challenging since it's just simple knowledge and gear checks.

Problem with this reasoning: 

Secret World Legends IS NOT Warframe. Game play mechanics are different. 

 

Sorry but your arguments requires precision and exactness. For example if you are going to start a conversation select specific bosses like Vaykor Hek, Profit Taker, Exploiter orb or any Eidolon of your predilection as examples. You will see what I mean when you start thinking how they work. 

 

[ReaverKane]

On 2020-07-24 at 3:17 AM, BernieBlack said:

I understand DEs "intentions," they only added this for vets wanting higher level enemies, but from the outside it looks like a harder challenge with crap rewards. Imagine coming into this fresh and seeing steel path for the first time, getting excited and finding out it only rewards skins and ephemeras with a currency that you won't even have enough of by completing said hard mode. 

This game is in some weird and perplexing bubble when a playerbase seems to think they shouldn't be rewarded for their efforts.

It's not only on the outside. It IS hard mode with the same or worse rewards. I honestly question the sanity of DE, and the community that thinks this is ok. I guess too long in COVID isolation. But its really just a bad joke from any sane standpoint.
And the excuse that its "just higher lvls" goes out the window after they added the Sortie modifiers to health and armor, their intention WAS hard mode.
 

8 hours ago, (PS4)ErydisTheLucario said:

Its been said already that better Ai won't fix the problems the game has. It'd be cool of it got tweaked, but thats not the answer we really need.

The thing is the person who said that, was first the UI designer, so lets say that he's not the most competent voice in DE to talk about AI. Not going to even start on his competence as a UI designer...
Second, that comment was discussing a not very applicable definition of AI, he was talking about stuff like neural networks and self-learnign Ai, while in games Ai is more about coded behaviour, and enemies in general.
So yeah, a incredibly smart AI won't fix problems with their current tools, but if you make AI behaviours that have responses to specific questions, then you can improve the game... We can one-shot with powers... Already there's AI that deals with that (nullifiers). Status damage OP, make an AI that has status immunities (like Prosecutors, those guys are a pain to kill at high lvls), melee too strong, give them "thorn's Aura"... Etc.
There's a lot of ways, and the opinion of someone who doesn't play ESO because Sarin... Well, lets just put a pin on that, shall we?

 

[SneakyErvin]

26 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

 

The reasoning of 43-29 doesn't work. Old frames and prime frames has different approaches in their powers they are reworks of the old ones. Some are revisions, other are different takes on certain parameters defining different builds. 

 

False.

The bosses are designed below the standards. Ads and timed invulnerability is a sign of cheap design. Current bosses challenge the wits of players. These bosses are nothing more than pinatas waiting for shots. They don't have any defensive maneuvers. An example is the marauder in Doom Eternal. Good boss design makes the player think in position, priority, preferences and preservation. No boss in War Frame stress the player enough for only preservation. Bosses in War Frames are incidental and events that are simply fillers. 

 

Limb system design is an effective approach that was used in Horizon Zero Dawn. Even the sephalites uses the limb system for particular damage. 

Don't speak about experience you don't have. You haven't played Dark Souls, Horizon Zero Dawn, Daemon Souls, Sekiro or Blood Borne. Boss design has particular parameters that were already discussed in the previous post. Read. 

Problem with this reasoning: 

WoW IS NOT Warframe. 

False. 

There is a difference between a task and challenge in video games. One factor is stress testing. 

 

Problem with this reasoning: 

Every boss encounter by definition has a degree of difficulty, challenge under a Hard mode rubric. 

 

Problem with this reasoning: 

Secret World Legends IS NOT Warframe. Game play mechanics are different. 

 

Sorry but your arguments requires precision and exactness. For example if you are going to start a conversation select specific bosses like Vaykor Hek, Profit Taker, Exploiter orb or any Eidolon of your predilection as examples. You will see what I mean when you start thinking how they work. 

 

Do you not play the game at all? Every single prime is a direct mirrior of their normal version outside of the slight stat differences for hp, shields, armor and nrg. If one changes, the other changes aswell. As I said, the difference being Umbra due to the extra mechanics on his howl.

You also cannot speak for boss design or if it is false what I say because you have zero experience with those games. WF is at the foundation like those games, so we need to look at how bosses are made in those games. WF bosses would in essence work well as trinity bosses, they'd just need some speed added, slight damage changes and possible attributes to their abilities, like requiring the need to block, or deal massive damage over time on the tank in order for healers to be on their toes. You just dont have a conceptual idea of those types of bosses since your experience is limited to single player games, which WF isnt. Adds is one of the most common concepts for bosses, since they devide attention of the group, or in trinity raids you actually need to devide attention through off tanks, secondary healers and dps.

And obviously WoW and the other games arent WF, they do however share the aspect that they are not single player games. And they have mechanics that are expected in these types of games.

And if you wanna argue task and challenge, you may wanna look at the front page for WF where others also refer to NW tasks as challenges. And while every boss encounter has a degree of hard/difficult or challenge to it, it still doesnt mean it is challenging or actually challenges the player. Challenge and challenging is not the same word. It also depends highly on the context that the word is used, something you have an extremely hard time understanding several times in your posts. edit: It pretty much comes down to the pehnomena that is "sär skrivning" in swedish, where "en bärkass" doesnt mean the same as "en bär kass". Where the first means "a shopping bag" and the other "one carries a bag".

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, Felsagger said:

-snip-

You can solo those games aswell as you please, you just need to overpower them like we do in WF. No difference. Or please do tell me how I completed most of Secret World Legends solo with the right builds, or soloed raids in WoW to obtain transmog items? Currently the bosses of WF are a good step above BL bosses, that are still seen as pretty good bosses for a looter shooter/arpg. Obviously both are a step below single player game bosses, where the encounter is often the reward, so needs to be really good.

Tasks can also be failed. Tasks can be challenging, tasks can be challenges. A challenge is often something you wouldnt normaly do. Both NW and Rivens are challenges and tasks, both can also fail. Or have you missed the several people that simply cannot do X act? Not because they are challenging for the person, but because they are hard or difficult to do since they require something specific in the game to access or complete.

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

You can solo those games aswell as you please, you just need to overpower them like we do in WF. No difference.

Destiny 2 raids were designed for team players. And yes they are different. Those games are completely different than War Frame. War Frame mechanics is not like those games. Doesn't matter how stubborn you are, they are the same and the principles doesn't apply. Suffice to see few videos of the game play to notice it. 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Or please do tell me how I completed most of Secret World Legends solo with the right builds, or soloed raids in WoW to obtain transmog items? Currently the bosses of WF are a good step above BL bosses, that are still seen as pretty good bosses for a looter shooter/arpg. Obviously both are a step below single player game bosses, where the encounter is often the reward, so needs to be really good.

Those games where designed for cooperative game play and team based tasks. 

War Frame bosses lacks intelligence, preservation and reaction. Many of them are not aware of your presence and sometimes if not all the time they miss their shots. Bosses in War frame are incidental events with no substance because there is no evolution in the fight and no adaptability despite the frame powers. Bosses are meant to sustain a battle where both parts exchange damage or one of the parts dodge graphed strikes that are lethal. Boss fights are intended as a test of skill, gear check and decision taking. In Warframe all of that is absent. 

Horizon Zero Dawn, God of War IV, Dark Souls Series, Blood Borne, Sekiro provides good examples. DE bosses are not well designed for such engagement. The thinking factor is missing in all of them. DE has a lot of talented sound designers and 3d artists, fair good animators but they don't have game developers. A game developer devices fights, events and situations where circumstances for the player are tighter. The game aims to casual players who eventually get good at their game by an insane repetition of the tasks. 

The philosophy of design is abysmal and awful without any serious attempt towards the sustained fight or the evolutionary fight where conditions of engagement changes. DE plugs the bosses as bullet sponges. The case opposite to it is the marauder in Doom Eternal.  

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Tasks can also be failed. Tasks can be challenging, tasks can be challenges. A challenge is often something you wouldnt normaly do. Both NW and Rivens are challenges and tasks, both can also fail. Or have you missed the several people that simply cannot do X act? Not because they are challenging for the person, but because they are hard or difficult to do since they require something specific in the game to access or complete.

Your misplaced judgment doesn't allow you to think straight because you derive conclusions without logic, context and coherence. Let us take this example. A task can't be failed because is cumulative in this game. Once the requirement is completed the task is achieved providing the XP points in NW. If you consider failure as the date of expiration then you may claim that but you never did. A task that is a challenge is the Riven mod challenge where the outcome could be success or fail. You confuse challenge with task because you do not understand or comprehend the definition of these concepts such as the limiting factors or the requirements. Again, you do not have issues with the language or the interpretation of game terms in the respective context. You have problems with the definitions of the concepts. Tasks can be challenging if there is a parameter of pass or fail, difficult if such tasks demands performance and hard if the same task excludes a certain number of players due to the level of rigor required. 

Your neural connections can't differentiate between these concepts. We don't even want to discuss the idea of an algorithm or pursuit. If you want to contribute on any conversation you should understand the concepts and see if such concepts are correctly applied. Being insistent doesn't makes your contribution valuable. Knowing your concepts correctly does. Your contribution becomes valuable when the explanation is scientific with the possibility to be disproved or not. Don't try to explain terms that has the propensity of making you look dumb, clueless or ignorant in your inconsistent presentations. You could evade these logical breaks by defining the term strictly and being sure that you understand how they are applied. This is why you get revoked constantly on the forums. You motivate an antagonistic discussion while you exercise stubbornness being consistently dismissive. 

Tasks are cumulative while challenges are pass or fail. See how easy you differentiate the concepts? This is the type of thinking that is missing throughout all of your posts. Anyone who decides to be exhaustive with your posting habits will notice it, moreover if such player is a veteran or someone who has various experiences in their lives. My advice is to not invent stuff up. If you do so, then label it and write down your own interpretations or definitions. 

 

 

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Destiny 2 raids were designed for team players. And yes they are different. Those games are completely different than War Frame. War Frame mechanics is not like those games. Doesn't matter how stubborn you are, they are the same and the principles doesn't apply. Suffice to see few videos of the game play to notice it. 

Those games where designed for cooperative game play and team based tasks. 

War Frame bosses lacks intelligence, preservation and reaction. Many of them are not aware of your presence and sometimes if not all the time they miss their shots. Bosses in War frame are incidental events with no substance because there is no evolution in the fight and no adaptability despite the frame powers. Bosses are meant to sustain a battle where both parts exchange damage or one of the parts dodge graphed strikes that are lethal. Boss fights are intended as a test of skill, gear check and decision taking. In Warframe all of that is absent. 

Horizon Zero Dawn, God of War IV, Dark Souls Series, Blood Borne, Sekiro provides good examples. DE bosses are not well designed for such engagement. The thinking factor is missing in all of them. DE has a lot of talented sound designers and 3d artists, fair good animators but they don't have game developers. A game developer devices fights, events and situations where circumstances for the player are tighter. The game aims to casual players who eventually get good at their game by an insane repetition of the tasks. 

The philosophy of design is abysmal and awful without any serious attempt towards the sustained fight or the evolutionary fight where conditions of engagement changes. DE plugs the bosses as bullet sponges. The case opposite to it is the marauder in Doom Eternal.  

Your misplaced judgment doesn't allow you to think straight because you derive conclusions without logic, context and coherence. Let us take this example. A task can't be failed because is cumulative in this game. Once the requirement is completed the task is achieved providing the XP points in NW. If you consider failure as the date of expiration then you may claim that but you never did. A task that is a challenge is the Riven mod challenge where the outcome could be success or fail. You confuse challenge with task because you do not understand or comprehend the definition of these concepts such as the limiting factors or the requirements. Again, you do not have issues with the language or the interpretation of game terms in the respective context. You have problems with the definitions of the concepts. Tasks can be challenging if there is a parameter of pass or fail, difficult if such tasks demands performance and hard if the same task excludes a certain number of players due to the level of rigor required. 

Your neural connections can't differentiate between these concepts. We don't even want to discuss the idea of an algorithm or pursuit. If you want to contribute on any conversation you should understand the concepts and see if such concepts are correctly applied. Being insistent doesn't makes your contribution valuable. Knowing your concepts correctly does. Your contribution becomes valuable when the explanation is scientific with the possibility to be disproved or not. Don't try to explain terms that has the propensity of making you look dumb, clueless or ignorant in your inconsistent presentations. You could evade these logical breaks by defining the term strictly and being sure that you understand how they are applied. This is why you get revoked constantly on the forums. You motivate an antagonistic discussion while you exercise stubbornness being consistently dismissive. 

Tasks are cumulative while challenges are pass or fail. See how easy you differentiate the concepts? This is the type of thinking that is missing throughout all of your posts. Anyone who decides to be exhaustive with your posting habits will notice it, moreover if such player is a veteran or someone who has various experiences in their lives. My advice is to not invent stuff up. If you do so, then label it and write down your own interpretations or definitions. 

 

 

Yes and so were trials in WF? Your point being? You are now comparing raids that cannot be soloed to optional 4 man content that can be soloed. You are aware that Nightfalls or whatever they are called along with pretty much everything else in Destiny 2 can be soloed right?

WoW was/is designed for co-op at endgame or if you wanna do dungeons. Everything else is optional to group for. But that is due to how the trinity system works. It doesnt change how the bosses work though, since they are pretty much the same as several WF bosses when you encounter them. It is just that you need group members unless you out level and out gear the places, since several classes just cant sustain themselves alone, nor do they deal OP damage so they can 1HK the bosses and go "bur kek bad boss design!". Also, BL is not designed for co-op, you can solo everything in that game very easily if you just have the right weapons and mostly the right hero for the job.

All of those dodges and so on are absent in WF due to us being too powerful, that is all there is to it. We have so many safety features and massive offense that we cant experience the fights properly. That is the issue, not the bosses and their design. You are back in the loop where you stubbornly thought that a better A.I would magically change WF encounters and refused to accept that it is the power of us that is the problem. Now you argue the same regarding boss design.

You keep bringing up streamlined single player game encounters that have strict gear ceilings along with everything being encountered at the appropriate time in progression of the games. WF simply doesnt allow for bosses to scale, so that level 12 Jack will be a level 12 Jack no matter where you are in progression. Of course you will insta gib him and think "bur kek poor boss design!". You just fail to comprehend the issues of scaling, or more accurately the issue of scaling being non-exsistant.

How do you start scaling encounters when you have frames that can hit 1 million+ in damage with their skills, or debuff the enemy so their weapons hit those bosses for the damage cap? Or how do you scale a boss properly that can have its defenses permanently stripped by a skill that costs a whooping 6.25 to 25 energy? First time fighting Kela was amazing, now she is insta dead each phase due to gear, just as her intermission skills are avoided completely either by frame choice or the voidtween. In short, power creep ruins WF bosses.

[Felsagger]

14 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yes and so were trials in WF? Your point being? You are now comparing raids that cannot be soloed to optional 4 man content that can be soloed. You are aware that Nightfalls or whatever they are called along with pretty much everything else in Destiny 2 can be soloed right?

You can't Solo Destiny 2 but you can do it in War Frame. Destiny 2 has difficulty and challenge on the bosses but not Warframe. 

14 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

WoW was/is designed for co-op at endgame or if you wanna do dungeons. Everything else is optional to group for. But that is due to how the trinity system works. It doesnt change how the bosses work though, since they are pretty much the same as several WF bosses when you encounter them. It is just that you need group members unless you out level and out gear the places, since several classes just cant sustain themselves alone, nor do they deal OP damage so they can 1HK the bosses and go "bur kek bad boss design!". Also, BL is not designed for co-op, you can solo everything in that game very easily if you just have the right weapons and mostly the right hero for the job.

War Frame is not World of Warcraft. 

14 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

All of those dodges and so on are absent in WF due to us being too powerful, that is all there is to it. We have so many safety features and massive offense that we cant experience the fights properly. That is the issue, not the bosses and their design. You are back in the loop where you stubbornly thought that a better A.I would magically change WF encounters and refused to accept that it is the power of us that is the problem. Now you argue the same regarding boss design.

Suffice the examples of Horizon Zero Dawn Bosses or the Marauder in Doom Eternal. 

14 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You keep bringing up streamlined single player game encounters that have strict gear ceilings along with everything being encountered at the appropriate time in progression of the games. WF simply doesnt allow for bosses to scale, so that level 12 Jack will be a level 12 Jack no matter where you are in progression. Of course you will insta gib him and think "bur kek poor boss design!". You just fail to comprehend the issues of scaling, or more accurately the issue of scaling being non-exsistant.

The type of bosses that the game requires are from single player games. That's what people wants to see on boss fights, that level of engagement. 

14 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

How do you start scaling encounters when you have frames that can hit 1 million+ in damage with their skills, or debuff the enemy so their weapons hit those bosses for the damage cap?

Simple, All attacks deals the same damage on all War Frames including Inaros. If takes three deadly attacks to take down a War Frame that includes inaros too. 

14 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

Or how do you scale a boss properly that can have its defenses permanently stripped by a skill that costs a whooping 6.25 to 25 energy? First time fighting Kela was amazing, now she is insta dead each phase due to gear, just as her intermission skills are avoided completely either by frame choice or the voidtween. In short, power creep ruins WF bosses.

The bosses lacks heavy attacks, stages of progression and complexity in their mechanics. These are dumb bosses that repeats the same cycle instead of making the battle diverse. 

Sorry but DE needs to hire GAME DEVELOPERS for boss fights. That's a complex subject. DE is not paying attention to this part of the game. 

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, Felsagger said:

You can't Solo Destiny 2 but you can do it in War Frame. Destiny 2 has difficulty and challenge on the bosses but not Warframe. 

War Frame is not World of Warcraft. 

Suffice the examples of Horizon Zero Dawn Bosses or the Marauder in Doom Eternal. 

The type of bosses that the game requires are from single player games. That's what people wants to see on boss fights, that level of engagement. 

Simple, All attacks deals the same damage on all War Frames including Inaros. If takes three deadly attacks to take down a War Frame that includes inaros too. 

The bosses lacks heavy attacks, stages of progression and complexity in their mechanics. These are dumb bosses that repeats the same cycle instead of making the battle diverse. 

Sorry but DE needs to hire GAME DEVELOPERS for boss fights. That's a complex subject. DE is not paying attention to this part of the game. 

People do solo Nightfalls in order to get some difficulty (read spongeness).

That doesnt matter though due to the subject.

Single player games where the encounter is the reward and everything is balanced and handcrafted.

Wouldnt matter if you add single player game bosses since they'd die anyway due to our power.

Stupid design since it would just promote dragon key exploits since you are suddnely now safe for 3 hits, so better make that sustain count more. We've already seen it on shield gating.

The bosses lack heavy attacks because we out-"level" them insanely. Even in Steel Path are we waaay too strong versus bosses.

Boss fight design isnt really complex. Game needs a rebalance before there is even a point to add or rework bosses.

[(PSN)Ex0gamer0203]

I thought The Steel Path was mean’t for people who already completed the star chart and now want a challenge, so the rewards didn’t matter. I’m not arguing against better rewards, but if that doesn’t happen there’s nothing to be upset about since this was meant to be a challenge. 

[Felsagger]

12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

Single player games where the encounter is the reward and everything is balanced and handcrafted.

You found the main problem that DE has. DE needs to handcraft better the enemies. 

12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Wouldnt matter if you add single player game bosses since they'd die anyway due to our power.

Deadly attacks apply to any build in Dark Souls 3. Bosses can be ended fast but the boss can end the player if the player forgets the pattern. Pressure and level of intensity in a battle. 

12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

The bosses lack heavy attacks because we out-"level" them insanely. Even in Steel Path are we waaay too strong versus bosses.

Same example, look at Blood Borne, Horizon Zero or Dark Soul 3 bosses. 

12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Boss fight design isnt really complex. Game needs a rebalance before there is even a point to add or rework bosses.

But DE can't make good boss fights. It's difficult for them. 

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, Felsagger said:

You found the main problem that DE has. DE needs to handcraft better the enemies. 

Deadly attacks apply to any build in Dark Souls 3. Bosses can be ended fast but the boss can end the player if the player forgets the pattern. Pressure and level of intensity in a battle. 

Same example, look at Blood Borne, Horizon Zero or Dark Soul 3 bosses. 

But DE can't make good boss fights. It's difficult for them. 

They uhm already have, or do you think bosses are based on randomly generated algorithms?

Hard to do in a game where there are 40+ different "character" all with different health, shields and armor, along with 40+ different skill setups that further increase durability or sustain. Which one should the boss be balance around 1HKing?

Those bosses are part of a balanced environment with a strict power ceiling. Part of more "skill based" games aswell. Wouldnt work here since the game needs to cate to the rest of the 99% of the content aswell, which is the horde looter shooter hack n slash portion of the game. We also dont need to rely on stamina/energy or what you wanna call the dodge juice. We are simply too unlimited.

They can, well they have, they just need to balance the game or put damage caps versus all bosses like with Leph.

[Felsagger]

6 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

They uhm already have, or do you think bosses are based on randomly generated algorithms?

No they didn't. That's why you have threads like this. Their bosses are simply shoddy attempts. 

6 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Hard to do in a game where there are 40+ different "character" all with different health, shields and armor, along with 40+ different skill setups that further increase durability or sustain. Which one should the boss be balance around 1HKing?

Simple, apply the same damage parameter to all of them. It's not difficult. 

6 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Those bosses are part of a balanced environment with a strict power ceiling. Part of more "skill based" games aswell. Wouldnt work here since the game needs to cater to the rest of the 99% of the content as well, which is the horde looter shooter hack n slash portion of the game. We also dont need to rely on stamina/energy or what you wanna call the dodge juice. We are simply too unlimited.

That paradox doesn't work. DE doesn't want to work with more complex boss fights. It's laziness. That is it. Simple. 

6 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

They can, well they have, they just need to balance the game or put damage caps versus all bosses like with Leph.

No, they haven't. Their first attempt is profit taker with the Corpus soldiers. It never worked because it has the same issues of Ads and invulnerability periods. 

DE doesn't want to focus on boss fights. That's the reality of it. 

[prodi1600]

The issue its that warframe have about 2 types or player grind and difficulty wise.

- the ones that want difficulty and are ok with a good amount of grind if its a fun grind.

- The ones that play to chill and wish to be kept in their power fantasy of nuking rooms endlessly

I'm in a clan, out of 30 about 3 people play at this moment, those including me are the ones that are ok with difficulty in the game, the other 20 are the ones that wished to chill in this game.

I think that the root of the issue, the "hardcore" side will always be less than the most casual side, and since warframe needs to make money it creates a dilema for DE as a dev

[Kaotyke]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Ex0gamer0203 said:

I thought The Steel Path was mean’t for people who already completed the star chart and now want a challenge, so the rewards didn’t matter. I’m not arguing against better rewards, but if that doesn’t happen there’s nothing to be upset about since this was meant to be a challenge. 

Not challenge exactly, but something to use their powerful gear on.

Even increasing levels +100 wasnt enough, they had to add defensive modifiers. Because after a level, it gets to 2HK territory for players who use squisher frames.

So, +100 Levels of damage (manageable) and +100 Levels+Survivability Modifiers (So they survive and justify using said powerful gear).

But of course, people ask for rewards, and DE gives them, in the form of cosmetics, but its not enough, not "why should I do this" enough, "its too much of a slog", when the real reason to make this... was just for people to use their powerful gear on. Nothing else. But they still want to be rewarded for doing this.

And they fail to see that, by making it give the same rewards as the normal one (aside from cosmetics), they made this thing optional down to the "t".

I just wish I could do Fissures and other mission types (like Sorties and Syndicate Missions) on SP level. But that might come later.

But its not rewarding enough. Remember, you cant spell "reward" without "RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE".

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, Felsagger said:

No they didn't. That's why you have threads like this. Their bosses are simply shoddy attempts. 

Simple, apply the same damage parameter to all of them. It's not difficult. 

That paradox doesn't work. DE doesn't want to work with more complex boss fights. It's laziness. That is it. Simple. 

No, they haven't. Their first attempt is profit taker with the Corpus soldiers. It never worked because it has the same issues of Ads and invulnerability periods. 

DE doesn't want to focus on boss fights. That's the reality of it. 

No matter what you think, they are by definition handcrafted, since they arent randomly generated each time we face them.

Would that be you "all frames can only take 3 hits"? Otherwise there is no parameter that works for all. And as I said, that one wouldnt work.

Those other fights arent more complex, they are run of the mill but balanced due to a balanced game.

PT is a fantastic fight, perfect set up. Adds arent much of an issue if you do things right and the invulnerability phase rewards effective gameplay, everything a boss should have. Bad invulnerability would be Sargas and Krill, since they are hard locked to a timer.

And they shouldnt since it is a horde game. They still have fantastic bosses in the game, while they also have total dumpster fires.

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

No matter what you think, they are by definition handcrafted, since they arent randomly generated each time we face them.

That's your subjectivity. You may think anything you want. DE bosses are underdeveloped. That is a fact. You refuse it or not, your decision. 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Would that be you "all frames can only take 3 hits"? Otherwise there is no parameter that works for all. And as I said, that one wouldnt work.

Equal condition for all the frames without distinction of what frame is. This will only work on deadly attacks. Bosses could have combos where all these attacks happens. Example, Dark Soul 3. 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

 PT is a fantastic fight, perfect set up. Adds arent much of an issue if you do things right and the invulnerability phase rewards effective gameplay, everything a boss should have. Bad invulnerability would be Sargas and Krill, since they are hard locked to a timer.

Finally you are talking common sense. How does it feels? 

Profit Taker is not a fantastic fight. That only is true in your head. Profit Taker has a lot of hitscan issues and inaccurate limb damage. A good limb damage system is the example of Horizon Zero Dawn. The game already HAS this system but is not applied in boss fights. 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

And they shouldn't since it is a horde game. 

You admit it. Finally we are having progress in our conversation. 

 

That's the MAIN PROBLEM of this game. They are treating it as a MUSOU game. Bingo. 

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

46 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Profit Taker has a lot of hitscan issues and inaccurate limb damage.

I've literally run the fight 150+ times, and I've never had an issue with inaccurate limb damage. Other bugs yes, but not inaccurate limb damage. If I shot a limb when it was vulnerable, it took damage.
Also hitscan issues? What does that even mean.

[Felsagger]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

I've literally run the fight 150+ times, and I've never had an issue with inaccurate limb damage. Other bugs yes, but not inaccurate limb damage. If I shot a limb when it was vulnerable, it took damage.

Also hitscan issues? What does that even mean.

I run the PS4 pro version. Both platforms runs the same game right? 

When I scope and fire the legs the hit damage of my firing is not registered. This bug happens when I use Velocitus. This weapon is for long range approach. When I use the Imperator Vandal I have issues of of the same nature. This happens when I play with other players. Maybe this could be lag or bad connection. When I go alone the problem is minimized. I don't have much issues with Velocitus. 

 This person has a similar game play style like mine. Since he's playing solo, he doesn't have misses with the Velocitus. Besides you can notice some inaccurate limb damages in this encounter. 

. 

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

13 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

This person has a similar game play style like mine. Since he's playing solo, he doesn't have misses with the Velocitus. Besides you can notice some inaccurate limb damages in this encounter. 

This is the only time I see what could be thought as inaccurate limb damage (he misses a shot and hits the main body) All the rest are just didn't crit/no-multishot/didn't charge his shot