Still no end game?

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

Eh, some people legit have bad internet connections.  Some people, like me, just don't like the all too prevalent "GO GO GO GO!" attitude PuGs all too often have.  Sure, let's load up this third person shooter then proceed to do anything but shoot bad guys in the name of speed and efficiency.

And since solo players make up a fairly large portion of DE's player base, they have a vested interest in making sure solo players are not (soft) locked out of any meaningful content.

Absolutely true. The fact that so many solo players exist and can solo the content in game, suggests that we're NOT forced to co-op. 

That makes the point moot, and the whole thing is nothing more than people using a silly catchphrase. DE has taken steps to ensure that we're not locked out by things like companion doors, or puzzles when we're solo. We don't have any reason to conjure the spectre of "forced co-op is bad". 

[GEN-Son_17]

On 2020-08-06 at 6:30 AM, Ikyr0 said:

So the REALLY interesting bit is that the game WAS dying, or put differently, retention was very poor as demonstrated by Steam stats...until DE started balancing the game and adding endgame-type activities. I distinctly remember Scott and Rebecca scoffing at "bitter vets" until one day, the players suddenly started getting large balance changes and endgame activities. This was during a big lull after Fortuna, when the numbers kept dropping, and many players had nothing left to do.

Players started coming back with the large balance rework earlier in the year, RJ rework, and to an extent liches. People came back for Steel Path. Whether these activities deliver as "endgame" or not remains to be seen...but without these types of activities as well as balancing, retention will be very poor.

Look at what people are most excited about with Deimos. It's the Helminth system, which is an endgame-type activity. If DE chose not to listen to vets, and the stats over the last 2 yrs, WF would have continued to go downhill, as it has been for a number of years. You are quite ignorant to think that the crowd begging for endgame activities had no role to play in the game you are enjoying now.

Not exactly. Steam, for the last time, means nothing if all platforms have the game. DE has metrics we do not and should not because we have no business needing it. 

That said, the additions to the game have a lot less to do with endgame vets and more to do with the highly requested advancement in lore and progression. I'm not saying they didn't have a role but it's not what you're portraying. Endgame vets don't have their act together, using horrible examples like Dark Souls for comparing enemy AI and demanding balancing in a power fantasy horde game. What we're enjoying now is definitely not the endgamer's fantasy. They're still raising pitchforks and crying about "DE not listening".

[Ikyr0]

26 minutes ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

Not exactly. Steam, for the last time, means nothing if all platforms have the game. DE has metrics we do not and should not because we have no business needing it. 

That said, the additions to the game have a lot less to do with endgame vets and more to do with the highly requested advancement in lore and progression. 

First of all, who cares about console plebs? This is all about PC, remember that. I don't know what console plebs want, except maybe more casual content. It takes an eon to do anything with the joystick. 

The second part of your statement is basically just based on false information (that console players matter). 

Jokes aside, lore and progression have absolutely nothing to do with retention. Retention has to do with a well tuned reward-challenge balance. These are almost always accomplished by fun and rewarding gameplay loops, which Warframe virtually had none of 2 yrs ago. 

[Felsagger]

On 2020-08-03 at 5:37 PM, CrimsonXX said:

 

100% are you serious right now? Liches ARE NOT casual content; Scarlet Spear was NOT casual content; Railjack is NOT casual content. If anything this shows how absolutely skewed your view of things is cause you have no idea of "casual". Then again you're clearly locked in the tryhard zone where anything not driving you into the ground is deemed as "casual". As far as I go if its kept to being a side-project, then I don't really give 2 cares about it; so long as it stays SIDE and not MAIN/CORE.

 

This game entirely is a casual game. This is not Horizon Zero Dawn, this is not Dark Souls, Sekiro, Daemon Souls or Blood Borne. Here players can even dance in Steel Path with given builds in the net. There is no skill whatsoever that distinguish players. In this game players are rewarded like a kids and the irony is that tennos are clueless kids. War Frame endgame was the endurance run. At least it was a niche for players who got some skill comprehending the game. Now these long sessions are sleeping pills for insomnia where anyone can pull of the run with the right build. 

This game doesn't offer the challenge like Blood Borne or any other game of the same sort. This game forgives mistakes. Even Overwatch campaign against the omni challenges top players in the game. If we are going to speak about casual games, this is one of them whenever we like it or not. Can any player make it challenging, yes. But very few have such initiative. That's the reality of it. 

[BernieBlack]

On 2020-08-06 at 9:30 AM, Ikyr0 said:

So the REALLY interesting bit is that the game WAS dying, or put differently, retention was very poor as demonstrated by Steam stats...until DE started balancing the game and adding endgame-type activities. I distinctly remember Scott and Rebecca scoffing at "bitter vets" until one day, the players suddenly started getting large balance changes and endgame activities. This was during a big lull after Fortuna, when the numbers kept dropping, and many players had nothing left to do.

Players started coming back with the large balance rework earlier in the year, RJ rework, and to an extent liches. People came back for Steel Path. Whether these activities deliver as "endgame" or not remains to be seen...but without these types of activities as well as balancing, retention will be very poor.

Look at what people are most excited about with Deimos. It's the Helminth system, which is an endgame-type activity. If DE chose not to listen to vets, and the stats over the last 2 yrs, WF would have continued to go downhill, as it has been for a number of years. You are quite ignorant to think that the crowd begging for endgame activities had no role to play in the game you are enjoying now.

Wait did DE actually scoff at "bitter vets?"

[BernieBlack]

Repeated myself, don't know how to delete.

[BernieBlack]

Ignore this.

[prodi1600]

Dont think there's gonna be an endgame, due the nature of the game, you can play as long as it brings you joy but when you get done with it, there's just nothing else.

 

[Ikyr0]

10 hours ago, BernieBlack said:

Wait did DE actually scoff at "bitter vets?"

Yeah. There were a couple of moments when DE (Scott and Rebecca) were memeing on "vets" and "endgame". I think there were certain content creators who had a sense of smug entitlement, and devs, being humans, likely reacted negatively to that. This was maybe two years ago, before most of DE's development shifted toward sustainable endgame loops. It seemed Steve took a lot of the feedback about endgame to heart, understood what players wanted (intrinsic rewards). 

Between Arbies, Eidolons, SP, liches, and RJ, we have a nice selection of endgame-ey activities to do now. I hope future efforts continue to shift more toward balance, and tweaking frame and weapon numbers to bring them in line with the current high level content.

[Galuf]

There is a lot of efforts been made toward new player experience. I would also like some form of verticality. The new war, PoE had that and I would enjoy content like that in the future.

But what can I say, I loved RJ 🙂

[Kimimoto]

On 2020-08-01 at 9:46 PM, Marvelous_A said:

you should look into other games if you want an end game.

 A toxic community left to fester, on the forums no less since mid-December. "Stop playing!" they said in a smug outcry, and so they did, they left Warframe to die. As we speak Warframe declines, off the "steam top 10" it's now defined. Further it falls as we remember, the toxicity that took place in mid-December.

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

19 hours ago, Ikyr0 said:

First of all, who cares about console plebs? This is all about PC, remember that. I don't know what console plebs want, except maybe more casual content. It takes an eon to do anything with the joystick. 

The second part of your statement is basically just based on false information (that console players matter). 

Jokes aside, lore and progression have absolutely nothing to do with retention. Retention has to do with a well tuned reward-challenge balance. These are almost always accomplished by fun and rewarding gameplay loops, which Warframe virtually had none of 2 yrs ago. 

Uh...no us console plebs want what you want...but who cares, we're just nobodies, our opinions mean #*!% all!

[Ethorin]

WTF even is this "endgame" people speak of? The thing that means you need to actually use the tools you are given effectively? Eidolons, Orb Mothers, Sorties, Steel Path, Arbi's. All test your gear and your ability to move and negate damage in different ways. Heck, before you can do those reliably even lower level content in this game is often going to test your mettle. Warframe might not have WoW style Raids, but it ALSO doesn't have WoW style dungeons that you sleep through for 90% of the game. And frankly, I'll take having fun before level cap over some people having more fun after level cap. For that matter, I'll take having fun always over only having fun once a week and the rest of the time is snorefest farming.

 

"Thing only the elite of the game who have excesses of time can do" Why the fething hells would you even WANT this? But if you insist, Conclave is right over there. It'll test your aim and movement capability to the extreme!

 

Warframe HAS endgame. It's a fairly solved endgame for the most part but IMO, that's fine.

[BernieBlack]

2 hours ago, Ethorin said:

WTF even is this "endgame" people speak of? The thing that means you need to actually use the tools you are given effectively? Eidolons, Orb Mothers, Sorties, Steel Path, Arbi's. All test your gear and your ability to move and negate damage in different ways. Heck, before you can do those reliably even lower level content in this game is often going to test your mettle. Warframe might not have WoW style Raids, but it ALSO doesn't have WoW style dungeons that you sleep through for 90% of the game. And frankly, I'll take having fun before level cap over some people having more fun after level cap. For that matter, I'll take having fun always over only having fun once a week and the rest of the time is snorefest farming.

 

"Thing only the elite of the game who have excesses of time can do" Why the fething hells would you even WANT this? But if you insist, Conclave is right over there. It'll test your aim and movement capability to the extreme!

 

Warframe HAS endgame. It's a fairly solved endgame for the most part but IMO, that's fine.

The problem is either those things have existed for so long they've been burned through or just aren't worth doing, like steel path with their current rewards. 

I think the issue is people think adding one thing and leaving it alone will solve the issue, but that simply won't work for an online game. 

The last boss we got that could be considered close to an endgame boss is exploiter orb, and unless I'm mistaken that thing came out 2 years ago. Not to mention it shares a reward pool with profit taker, which was already farmed out and can be done much faster, so theres no reason to do the fight. Don't get me wrong, I love that fight, its very well done for a FPS game, but as it stands there's no reason to do it other than for a laugh, which won't keep players coming back.

Honestly the sortie reward structure is fantastic and meets the standards for endgame, the only problem is it hasn't been touched in years. If DE would just take that loot table (with different rewards like arcanes) and daily limit and add that to the farmable bosses like orb mothers, then a lot of people would be satisfied and play a lot more.

People keep complaining that the community doesn't know what we want for endgame, but we keep offering clear cut ideas and just keep getting shot down and then told a day later we don't know what we want 😅 Its aggravating.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

29 minutes ago, BernieBlack said:

The problem is either those things have existed for so long they've been burned through or just aren't worth doing, like steel path with their current rewards. 

I think the issue is people think adding one thing and leaving it alone will solve the issue, but that simply won't work for an online game. 

The last boss we got that could be considered close to an endgame boss is exploiter orb, and unless I'm mistaken that thing came out 2 years ago. Not to mention it shares a reward pool with profit taker, which was already farmed out and can be done much faster, so theres no reason to do the fight. Don't get me wrong, I love that fight, its very well done for a FPS game, but as it stands there's no reason to do it other than for a laugh, which won't keep players coming back.

Honestly the sortie reward structure is fantastic and meets the standards for endgame, the only problem is it hasn't been touched in years. If DE would just take that loot table (with different rewards like arcanes) and daily limit and add that to the farmable bosses like orb mothers, then a lot of people would be satisfied and play a lot more.

People keep complaining that the community doesn't know what we want for endgame, but we keep offering clear cut ideas and just keep getting shot down and then told a day later we don't know what we want 😅 Its aggravating.

Once again proving that people asking for endgame do not care about endgame and only want more rewards to be added to the game, and so will never be satisfied. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

33 minutes ago, BernieBlack said:

The problem is either those things have existed for so long they've been burned through or just aren't worth doing, like steel path with their current rewards. 

I think the issue is people think adding one thing and leaving it alone will solve the issue, but that simply won't work for an online game. 

The last boss we got that could be considered close to an endgame boss is exploiter orb, and unless I'm mistaken that thing came out 2 years ago. Not to mention it shares a reward pool with profit taker, which was already farmed out and can be done much faster, so theres no reason to do the fight. Don't get me wrong, I love that fight, its very well done for a FPS game, but as it stands there's no reason to do it other than for a laugh, which won't keep players coming back.

Honestly the sortie reward structure is fantastic and meets the standards for endgame, the only problem is it hasn't been touched in years. If DE would just take that loot table (with different rewards like arcanes) and daily limit and add that to the farmable bosses like orb mothers, then a lot of people would be satisfied and play a lot more.

People keep complaining that the community doesn't know what we want for endgame, but we keep offering clear cut ideas and just keep getting shot down and then told a day later we don't know what we want 😅 Its aggravating.

Yea I see what you mean. I think when people think of endgame, they picture classical raids that consist of killing mobs in a hallway then killing a boss for a chance at drops. 

What you just said isn't a bad idea: using the existing content and just modifying it. So for example a sortie Profit Taker that has the standard loot, with a bonus of like 6k kuva, a fully built forma, 1 R0 arcane, a very very small chance for an umbra etc. 

The idea has pros and cons. But I totally understand what you mean. 

You can only farm profit taker for so many toroids and credits. After awhile you're just turning in the toroids every day and leaving Fortuna.

People will make a few kitguns, but once they have a few they like, they wont make anymore.

[GEN-Son_17]

18 hours ago, BernieBlack said:

Wait did DE actually scoff at "bitter vets?"

Actually, no. There was a bit of frustration from DE but anyone would have that when a genre of an overall community goes as far as calling for your termination just because they couldn't get their way like spoiled children. In fact, DE has been remarkably tolerant considering the behavior of some in the community. I don't care about the defense of any player or poster who go that far or similar. It's a game you can walk away from. If it's not to your liking, express it responsibly or walk away from it. Period.

[killerJoke66]

A thought just went thru my mind ; imagine there would be like sorties 2 but there are 4 to 5 stages and each stage has different mission types with randomized crippling effect just like in sorties so , one cant just whip out limbo for all the missons like defense mobile defense spy or rescue etc. and then there would be a special timer for each mission type and each bleed out/revive would shorten the count down (tho i guess you need to scrap that idea for fixated timers like excavation and hijack etc.)  

I know the idea isnt perfect and i dont even fully know what this is (? lol) , its just a sparkle of idea that i thought could be somewhat challenging , what do you guys and girls think ?

[GEN-Son_17]

22 hours ago, Felsagger said:

This game entirely is a casual game. This is not Horizon Zero Dawn, this is not Dark Souls, Sekiro, Daemon Souls or Blood Borne. Here players can even dance in Steel Path with given builds in the net. There is no skill whatsoever that distinguish players. In this game players are rewarded like a kids and the irony is that tennos are clueless kids. War Frame endgame was the endurance run. At least it was a niche for players who got some skill comprehending the game. Now these long sessions are sleeping pills for insomnia where anyone can pull of the run with the right build. 

This game doesn't offer the challenge like Blood Borne or any other game of the same sort. This game forgives mistakes. Even Overwatch campaign against the omni challenges top players in the game. If we are going to speak about casual games, this is one of them whenever we like it or not. Can any player make it challenging, yes. But very few have such initiative. That's the reality of it. 

I semi disagree here. The skill level differences are very apparent in pubs alone and the learning curve is large enough to keep players here for years. Truth is, the forums are trash talk central but there aren't as many "superstars" in this game as it claims. Just playing with people proves that daily. 

The issue is and always will be that Warframe has a huge, HUGE spoiler rich community that has given even new players instant access to bypass the experience. Most games are having to deal with this but Warframe is the big exception due to its longevity. "Inst-vets" are a problem the game doesn't deserve and, while I do agree that it's not a challenge heavy game, it's also not as simple minded as led on. Of course, playing for years upon years shouldn't count either because driving a car is hard for a few months but shouldn't be after a few years.

[killerJoke66]

to be honest its kinda hard to create an endgame within this game with the current frames-weapons-mods interaction AND only faction which corpus being somewhat updated and ancients being too easy or too hard to navigate through depending one's setup and grinner being literally aim-bot gear-check at very high levels , tho i give props to DE for reworking at least some of the corpus deck .(no not the melee-nullifers in fortuna) 

[BernieBlack]

2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Once again proving that people asking for endgame do not care about endgame and only want more rewards to be added to the game, and so will never be satisfied. 

This is what I mean. Don't read post, throw in generic repeated response. Go to any other online game with "endgame" raids or dungeons or dailies/weeklies. They all have rewards, be it gear or extra xp or some in game token system. 

You cant have endgame activities without rewards. Period. That's why no one plays exploiter. That's why no one bothers with anthems harder modes. If you don't understand that you don't understand game design.

[killerJoke66]

people want meaningful rewards !!!?! what blashemy is thiz :d , how daaaare theyy (yes this was sarcastic , just in case)

[Felsagger]

6 minutes ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

I semi disagree here. The skill level differences are very apparent in pubs alone and the learning curve is large enough to keep players here for years. Truth is, the forums are trash talk central but there aren't as many "superstars" in this game as it claims. Just playing with people proves that daily. 

Any good player can get the game in a week if he or she pays attention to youtube game guides, War Frame Market, Overframe.gg and Semlar.com. 

Skill level are games like Dark Souls, Blood Borne, Sekiro, Daemon Souls. Once players learns them of course these are easy but they requires psycho motor coordination and time reaction skills. War Frame forgives way too much even on Steel Path where the whole game is breezed with meta builds on weapons, synergy and war frame including the tenno skill tree. 

6 minutes ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

The issue is and always will be that Warframe has a huge, HUGE spoiler rich community that has given even new players instant access to bypass the experience. Most games are having to deal with this but Warframe is the big exception due to its longevity. "Inst-vets" are a problem the game doesn't deserve and, while I do agree that it's not a challenge heavy game, it's also not as simple minded as led on. Of course, playing for years upon years shouldn't count either because driving a car is hard for a few months but shouldn't be after a few years.

Watching an ultra hard game play walk through on Doom Eternal/Dark Souls 3/Blood Borne doesn't make you an expert in doom eternal or on any other of those games.

Watching good players and seeing the explanation on how to use the frame grants that utility to non experienced players instantly. 

The key element that makes a game challenging IS the enemy A.I. and the variety of these enemies. 

[killerJoke66]

   Personally i dont much care if the game were to be way harder as in ai or even more easier than it is ,for me(just to share a perspective)  warframe can be easy , moderate or hard doesnt matter for me as soon as i get to utilize what i worked for and get meaningful stuff out of my playtime and not just reskins of weapons or another 10k kuva cliche , the game has a cool lore , it has fluidity and DE managed to make it better over the years(imo) , for players like me a simple concept just as changing the mentality for rewards would make the game alive for us , but its dull and void(haha) , we just wait our next forma to build up , think of doing sorties or not becuase its the same boring mobile defense again or thinking of doing tridolons but oh remebering it sucks too because lures are stupid(i dont care about 5x3 meta efficency if something not fun for me in a game i simply wont do it period) or thinking of doing some 3+ hour survival solo but then remebering i was almost falling asleep when doing melee at multiple times(no joke) . 

[killerJoke66]

to rep up my previous comment ; if DE wants to keep the braindead ai then at least give us meaningful rewards or they can choose the ai overhaul .. or even both but ehh .. i personally wouldnt bet on that possibility to even occur knowing the track record.