The Revenant Rework

[nslay]

15 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Also, since Reave does give back Revenant health and shields, replacing Mesmer with Defy literally gives Revenant a infinite scaling AOE ability that can be infinitely sustained outside of Defy being duration based.

Gotta love how replacing one of Revenants “best abilities” effectively opens the way to a far more practical and effective way to play him. Almost like his current ability design just wasn’t designed to work together.

I think immortality is an effective way to play Revenant too!

[kwlingo]

49 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

But my rework doesn’t have Mesmer skin. Now if you argue that since my reworks tank ability gives the 100% DE buff that the armor should be lower that would make sense. But as for being the lowest armor out of all Warframe? No. Maybe make it equal to the lowest or a little above.

Like Inaros broken balance. The most health equates to no shield and is still broken tankie.

[NuclearCoffeePot]

On 2020-08-04 at 5:30 PM, TheGuyver said:

First of all, the stats you suggest for the concept you suggest are completely ridiculous. Second, the passive is way too powerful to be a passive.

1. Any frame ability that depends upon an AI in anyway is going to be as garbage as the AI itself.

2/3 are meh

4. Not every warframe needs an exalted weapon, they just end up becoming a lazy gimmick in rework threads. Also, the eidolons pick themselves up because their remains are scatted everywhere on the plains, it wouldn't make sense for him to just magically make a giant cannon appear.

This is completely overzealous in terms of what you think the frame deserves, you want to turn it into a massive debuff killing machine and strip anyway any identity it might have and replace it with "muh debuffs, muh damage"

Hard pass.

I agree with the exalted cop out point. Its a super boring idea and doesnt add anything interesting to the game even if its good damage. 

For the eidolons picking up their remnants I think it would make a cool passive- Like when he loses 25% of his hp he loses a piece of himself and it goes flying, reducing his armor but giving him bonus ms, and this can happen 4 times with the 4th time giving him a grace period to pick up a lost piece- pieces would despawn after a period of say 10-15 seconds and picking them up would restore 15% hp- unfortunately this idea is sort of xacu's whole ult sooooo

Your point with AI is true but I think DE is getting better with it- They experimented with just raw stat increase in the nyx "rework"(its still trash tho) and with wukongs celestial twin they ALMOST nailed it.

I think the idea Gears had would be to make his 1 more like nekros shadows then Celestial twin though- they serve to distract enemies and be a passive source of x utility but they need to be more well balanced then his suggestion- summoning vomvalyst's is cool and thematically resonates well but it is their purpose that needs to be altered- To the Eidolons these things are pawns- they don't do much for them except help revive them when they go down and serve as a distraction for the players.

So maybe we make this ability an investment that pays off in the right situation- He can summon a vomvalyst which travels by him and draws some aggro or whatever- It marks an enemy every x seconds- If you kill the enemy, another vomvalyst spawns and when a certain condition is fulfilled something happens- I would think something along the lines of- if you lose your shields with at least 4 vomvalysts summoned your shields are instantly refilled and the vomvalysts explode dealing (x damage plus 50% per additional vomvalyst spawned) dealing damage to enemies in 10 meters

I think to make his kit more interesting then it currently is he needs to fill conditions to recieve the rewards he does- Rather then it just be, press button, get reward.

 

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

3 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I reworked Revenants abilities to make him more Eidolon themed.

Eidolons aren’t vampires. Vampires don’t shoot lasers, and Eidolons don’t have an ability to siphon off our shields to build up their own.

I don’t like how they wasted the amazing concept of an Eidolon frame by making him a vampire with absolutely no justifiable reason behind it.

Danse works. It gets held back by needing to use Mesmer Skin to survive, but it works. I know that contradicts me saying nothing works, but there’s such a massive disconnect between Danse and Revs 1-3 that I tend to count it separate from the Frame entirely.

There’s a difference between criticism and just stating an opinion with nothing to back it up. You people can call my rework trash all you want, but I’ve yet to hear any valid reasons as to why.

Oh my god... you did it again.

Say it. Just say you're only doing this because you don't like the theme, or that you've been trolling us all the entire time, and we all fell for it.

Because if you're really serious, and this entire thread exists on the basis of theme, I see why you've been called the laughing stock of discussion on the Forums lol.

Yikes buddy...

[CopperBezel]

Ey, can't we just argue about whether Revenant needs a theme rework without complaining about whether other frames have ever got one? 

I don't like this rework idea, most of all taking away Revenant's one Sentient-themed ability and replacing it with a damn Exalted, but I would definitely prefer the Vomvalysts in some form to the thralls. There's meant to be Eidolon and vampire theming in there in Revenant's case, but I think the reason this comes up even beyond his development history is the fact that neither of those things seems fully realized. 

[Leqesai]

6 hours ago, nslay said:

But if you use Enthrall like you would in any realistic game play where Revenant is overwhelmed, then Mesmer Skin is still pretty easy to manage in Steel Path missions.

I didn't see a major problem with any faction where Revenant and Mesmer Skin just couldn't work well in Steel Path... just the new Corpus Ship tile (where every Crewman has a Supra and Moas are everywhere!... or is it that every Crewman is a Corpus Tech?). But even so, if you got Enthrall on some Moas, you should be pretty safe!

Yeah this is very true.

The tests I ran were in steel path survival where the enemy density is extremely high when playing solo. Even when using enthrall on moas the enemy density in steel path survival is really really high. Enthrall can only have 7 thralls at one time but there can easily be between 10-20 enemies clumped together at any given moment. In non-survival missions this hasn't been an issue at all. And if you are doing survival with a full squad it isn't really an issue.

And for the record, I was using enthrall liberally as well as reave to maintain mesmer stacks.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

6 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Gotta love how replacing one of Revenants “best abilities” effectively opens the way to a far more practical and effective way to play him. Almost like his current ability design just wasn’t designed to work together.

Are we going to make that same argument with something like slapping roar on Mirage too?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

19 hours ago, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

Oh my god... you did it again.

Say it. Just say you're only doing this because you don't like the theme, or that you've been trolling us all the entire time, and we all fell for it.

Because if you're really serious, and this entire thread exists on the basis of theme, I see why you've been called the laughing stock of discussion on the Forums lol.

Yikes buddy...

Ok let’s do a little hypothetical.

If the intent from the very start was to make a vampire frame. What was the point of using an Eidolon themed frame model and making a backstory involving Eidolons?

Even Nslay acknowledges Revenant having thematic issues.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

14 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Are we going to make that same argument with something like slapping roar on Mirage too?

Maybe. Mirages problem is her dependence on light has always held her back. So removing that dependence could benefit her.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Just now, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Maybe. Mirages problem is her dependence on light has always held her back. So removing that dependence could benefit her.

Well we can disregard that now that DE is nerfing it.  Was looking forward to maybe grouping up sometime since the helminth system was making me consider a reinstall.  But now i'm just not coming back ever.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Well we can disregard that now that DE is nerfing it.  Was looking forward to maybe grouping up sometime since the helminth system was making me consider a reinstall.  But now i'm just not coming back ever.

Yep. Makes you wonder why DE chose those abilities if they didn’t want people to use them.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

On 2020-08-19 at 12:19 PM, nslay said:

I think immortality is an effective way to play Revenant too!

It’s not immortality, it’s being very very hard to kill, and using that to your advantage. Instead of the attempt to make Revenant hard to kill failing and then tripping up other abilities in his kit.
 

But none of this matters anymore because apparently DE’s idea of getting people excited for content is by nerfing the things people were excited for. So we can forget about putting Defy on Rev and I’ll just go back to calling him irredeemable trash.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

3 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Yep. Makes you wonder why DE chose those abilities if they didn’t want people to use them.

They probably chose what ability people would use most on each frame and then decided what could and couldn't transfer over. 

I don't get why there isn't any movement abilities. That would be a really valuable choice for a lot of frames. 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

They probably chose what ability people would use most on each frame and then decided what could and couldn't transfer over. 

I don't get why there isn't any movement abilities. That would be a really valuable choice for a lot of frames. 

Well there’s some abilities that there are far better options from a frame. Like who tf is going to use fire blast on a different frame? Why not give Embers 1 instead and actually add another compelling ability to the subsume list. Instead of nerfing the compelling options and leaving the garbage options as garbage.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

2 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Well there’s some abilities that there are far better options from a frame. Like who tf is going to use fire blast on a different frame? Why not give Embers 1 instead and actually add another compelling ability to the subsume list. Instead of nerfing the compelling options and leaving the garbage options as garbage.

I mean even blast could be usable (same with thermal sunder) if they were just always treated as max meter uses. But yeah. DE be DE as usual. I'll stop derailing now. 

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

On 2020-08-20 at 10:08 AM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Ok let’s do a little hypothetical.

If the intent from the very start was to make a vampire frame. What was the point of using an Eidolon themed frame model and making a backstory involving Eidolons?

Even Nslay acknowledges Revenant having thematic issues.

Because DE can make their Frames how they want lol.

And you're still at this. Newsflash, because I don't know how many different ways this can be explained to you: changes do not happen to Frames on the basis of their theme being wrong, they happen based on their in game functionality. If you want Revenant to be changed, stop whining about how you don't like the theme and make an actually compelling argument on how is functionally weak.

[Pizzarugi]

On 2020-08-20 at 8:08 AM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Ok let’s do a little hypothetical.

If the intent from the very start was to make a vampire frame. What was the point of using an Eidolon themed frame model and making a backstory involving Eidolons?

Even Nslay acknowledges Revenant having thematic issues.

If you took away the glowy bits on Revenant, he wouldn't look like an Eidolon. This is a result of him being corrupted by Eidolon energy, as explained in the mini-quest that rewarded him.

Some of us can agree that there's thematic issues. However, the solution to thematic issues isn't to nuke the frame from orbit and kill a viable ability kit in order to fix it.

[SneakyErvin]

Even though Rev may have a thematic split, your suggested #1 would simply break the lore. There is no reasonable explaination for a frame to be able to have pet sentients, or why a swarm of sentients would ever want to be controlled by a warframe. Revenant summoning those poor vombs would very likely end up killing them, since he'd shove the void up their hiney, since that is how warframe powers manifest.

I could see him having some passive Humperdoo Vombalyst that works similar to Venari. Some odd severely damaged Vombalyst that suddenly got attached to Rev for some reason. Heck, name it Renfield as an ode to the nutjob thrall of Dracula in Bramstoker's story. But having a skill that actually summons anything sentient, nope, no, never, niet, nej, aldrig, fan heller, are you nuts?

edit: Pretty much anything sentient that would be physically part of the frame would die or be rejected given what we now know about frames from the upcoming Deimos update.

[RamonLLLL]

Bro how bout you chill, Deimos update is in 3 days, go play it, mess around with the Helminth system using Revenant then come back and write more about your little passion project

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

On 2020-08-22 at 11:49 AM, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

Because DE can make their Frames how they want lol.

And you're still at this. Newsflash, because I don't know how many different ways this can be explained to you: changes do not happen to Frames on the basis of their theme being wrong, they happen based on their in game functionality. If you want Revenant to be changed, stop whining about how you don't like the theme and make an actually compelling argument on how is functionally weak.

Translation: there is no excuse for the vampire powers, and you’ve got nothing productive to add.

No other frame has had thematic issues in the past. So your claim that it doesn’t happen has no supporting evidence because the thing that would cause it hasn’t happened until Revenant.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

On 2020-08-22 at 1:32 PM, Pizzarugi said:

If you took away the glowy bits on Revenant, he wouldn't look like an Eidolon. This is a result of him being corrupted by Eidolon energy, as explained in the mini-quest that rewarded him.

Some of us can agree that there's thematic issues. However, the solution to thematic issues isn't to nuke the frame from orbit and kill a viable ability kit in order to fix it.

No he’s still look like an Eidolon. His heads shaped like the massive ridge on the top of a Teralyst. And even if you do take away all this energy bits he wouldn’t look anything even remotely vampire-ish.

No, the solution is nuke the whole kit and start anew. Especially when both the frames terrible theme management negatively impacts its viability.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

On 2020-08-22 at 2:13 PM, SneakyErvin said:

Even though Rev may have a thematic split, your suggested #1 would simply break the lore. There is no reasonable explaination for a frame to be able to have pet sentients, or why a swarm of sentients would ever want to be controlled by a warframe. Revenant summoning those poor vombs would very likely end up killing them, since he'd shove the void up their hiney, since that is how warframe powers manifest.

I could see him having some passive Humperdoo Vombalyst that works similar to Venari. Some odd severely damaged Vombalyst that suddenly got attached to Rev for some reason. Heck, name it Renfield as an ode to the nutjob thrall of Dracula in Bramstoker's story. But having a skill that actually summons anything sentient, nope, no, never, niet, nej, aldrig, fan heller, are you nuts?

edit: Pretty much anything sentient that would be physically part of the frame would die or be rejected given what we now know about frames from the upcoming Deimos update.

Lore justification: Revenant is still connected to the Eidolons. And therefor has influence over the lesser ones like Vomvalysts. Seriously, have a little imagination.

 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

18 hours ago, RamonLeeYJ said:

Bro how bout you chill, Deimos update is in 3 days, go play it, mess around with the Helminth system using Revenant then come back and write more about your little passion project

If you need the Helminth System (but let’s face it none of us will as DE seems intent on not making it have any impact whatsoever) to make a frame good then that means the frame isn’t good. The whole reason the whole “put Defy on him” showed merit was because it eliminates Mesmer Skin, and allows the player to get full performance out of Danse Macabre.

It’s just capitalizing on his best ability. That doesn’t suddenly make the rest of him good.

[SneakyErvin]

10 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Lore justification: Revenant is still connected to the Eidolons. And therefor has influence over the lesser ones like Vomvalysts. Seriously, have a little imagination.

I just dont buy it. Not to the point where he'd be able to impose his will on them, due to it being void powers and all that which would effectively hurt them. Like I said, a random little vomb that has somehow gotten attached to him would work, since it would be the vomb's will and no actual void energy would be involved. But even in that case it would be far fetched since eidolon =/= sentient, and Rev was supposed to be eidolon themed and not sentient themed. Being eidolon themed can simply mean he turned into whatever he is in the same way as the sentient got turned into the multitude of autonomous pieces that the eidolons are.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I just dont buy it. Not to the point where he'd be able to impose his will on them, due to it being void powers and all that which would effectively hurt them. Like I said, a random little vomb that has somehow gotten attached to him would work, since it would be the vomb's will and no actual void energy would be involved. But even in that case it would be far fetched since eidolon =/= sentient, and Rev was supposed to be eidolon themed and not sentient themed. Being eidolon themed can simply mean he turned into whatever he is in the same way as the sentient got turned into the multitude of autonomous pieces that the eidolons are.

We’re literally talking about a Warframe infused with Eidolon/sentient energy. How tf are you still on about how that doesn’t work when it’s right in front of your face?

You are single handedly the most infuriating person to argue with. You flat out ignore the obvious to go off on tangents like “Ghosts are vampires” and “Danse Macabre isn’t named after a song of Revenants development leads favorite band. It’s named off a painting that has no other connection to the ability outside of the name”. It’s like you deliberately try to find the least logical way to think about something.