Don't nerf Helminth feeding costs

[Proscriptor]

just as all the recently opened (post-release) helminth threads, which only serve the cause of nerfing any semblance of difficulty to the ground, don't contain any cogent arguments (my favorite so far is: helminth system requires us to use it in order to level it, and that's bad) ...

...neither does mine. 

if they can say "make it easier for me" without a valid reason 

i can say don't make it easier without stating any reason. 

therefore - don't nerf Helminth feeding costs. 

 

[Voltage]

There are a few inconsistencies in cost like some Railjack resources (Asterite being the worst offender), but other than those minor details, I like the cost of the system. It has serious power locked behind serious investment, and it's actually something done right in terms of cost. There are a bunch of concerns I have regarding abilities and balance, but the Helminth itself has great progression behind it. DE has actually made resource stockpiles and resource gathering relevant for long term players, and I find it to be really enjoyable and rewarding. This is basically the Hema, but if the Hema was actually Kuva Bramma (pre-nerf). You have to invest a ton of resources, but everything you get out of it is reflective of that investment.

Please don't lower the cost, just make some minor adjustments to a few outlier resources.

[Proscriptor]

bile resources, sorted by the difficulty to accumulate them for the current feeding costs - for a relatively veteran player in 2020 (played actively for 1 year at least)

trivial:

• cryotic (found on three planets, and you get it when you do excav fissures, which is normally something that you do)
• morphics (you just get it all the time from various places, and the cost is small)

easy:

• argon crystal (veteran players don't need it anymore, so they usually always have some from playing an odd mission in the void)

medium-easy:

• thermal sludge (a highly accessible open world resource that everyone has a stockpile of, but should you run of this resource it would probably be a bit of a pain to gather)

medium:

• somatic fibers (need to play a specific mission to get it, but it's easily farmed to meet the cost of 10)
• thermia (only need 5 which is easy to get should you need it, but it's event-specific)

medium-hard:

• copernics (if you play railjack a lot this is in the trivial category, but you probably don't play railjack a lot)
• isos (same as copernics)

hard

• fresnels (even if you play railjack a lot, and have crafted everything, this is a hard resource to accumulate at needed quantities)

- - -

when i see the above situation i see a perfectly reasonable design direction: make some resources a better value than others, and let players figure out which is which

[Althaline]

40 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said:

if they can say "make it easier for me" without a valid reason 

It's not about making it easier, it's about sending a message making sure that there aren't resources around that nobody will ever feed under any circumstances. As a general rule, the open world terrain resources are undertuned and the Railjack resources are overtuned. This is something that should be addressed.

Also, I don't like your continued jabbing at my Helminth levelling feedback. Stop. It's a perfectly valid piece of feedback that you're just refusing to consider reasonably.

[UUDDLRLRBA_START]

I like how some players think they can combine powers / abilities without the amount of time put in by vets to discover all the hot weird S#&$ combinations we can do.

Learn to walk, then learn to run.

By the time you can afford all those resources, you're a vet.

[Proscriptor]

among the 9 resources, it's fine that there will be 1-2 resources that are inadvisable to feed to helminth under almost any circumstance with the current state of things in mind

maybe in the future when something will be motivating people to play *a lot* more railjack this is gonna be different, but ultimately it doesn't matter

a smidge of false choice, and letting players figure out the best avenue for investing, is a completely valid game design choice

[(XBOX)RAG is NAROK]

38 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said:

easy:

• argon crystal (veteran players don't need it anymore, so they usually always have some from playing an odd mission in the void)

You might want to check up on both Nezha and Ivara's part blueprints, they along with a few others require argon crystals. Why does that matter? Because unless you plan on paying plat for duplicates of these and other frames (there are a few others that I am sure require Argon crystals... come to think of it, I think one of Wisp's parts uses it too), you won't be able to subsume them into your Helminth (and thereby rank it up). 

Just saying. 😋

[Proscriptor]

yes, farm a bit of argon and then build the duplicates, and then you really won't need it anymore

[CopperBezel]

1 hour ago, Traubenzuckr said:

just as all the recently opened (post-release) helminth threads, which only serve the cause of nerfing any semblance of difficulty to the ground, don't contain any cogent arguments (my favorite so far is: helminth system requires us to use it in order to level it, and that's bad) ...

The only arguments I'm seeing are about the Bile category specifically. 

1 minute ago, Traubenzuckr said:

yes, farm a bit of argon and then build the duplicates, and then you really won't need it anymore

You can't just feed it the same 4 resources over and over, that's designed in. The Railjack resources come in massively disproportionate quantities, Somatic Fibers and Thermia are each a very rare resource that's generally farmed for its own sake, and that leaves argon (which decays), thermal sludge, and morphics. So you can go and farm argon exclusively, and get 3% for every 3, and you can have depressed value on 4 resources at a time, completely covering the ones that it's possible to have lying around.  

It's ... disproportionate, when compared against the other categories. 

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

50 minutes ago, UUDDLRLRBA_START said:

I like how some players think they can combine powers / abilities without the amount of time put in by vets to discover all the hot weird S#&$ combinations we can do.

Learn to walk, then learn to run.

By the time you can afford all those resources, you're a vet.

You say that like it means anything. The internet exists. There is no sacred information a veteran has that cannot be learned online. It’s called the trickle down effect, friend. MR5 players today are a world ahead of MR5 players a few years ago.

What you’re proposing is quite simply the death of the game, to close the door on new players and cater just to the elite is toxic. It’s how games die.

[VoreoTheDragon]

some resources need toned down imo.
Railjack for example seems to high on most of its resources.

[Proscriptor]

19 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

The only arguments I'm seeing are about the Bile category specifically. 

You can't just feed it the same 4 resources over and over, that's designed in. The Railjack resources come in massively disproportionate quantities, Somatic Fibers and Thermia are each a very rare resource that's generally farmed for its own sake, and that leaves argon (which decays), thermal sludge, and morphics. So you can go and farm argon exclusively, and get 3% for every 3, and you can have depressed value on 4 resources at a time, completely covering the ones that it's possible to have lying around.  

It's ... disproportionate, when compared against the other categories. 

there are 9 bile resources

after you've fed helminth 4 easy resources that you will always have on hand, you can use your stockpile of somatic fibers and thermia. if you're a veteran player, you'll have enough of those for several feed cycles.

if and when you run out of thermia and somatic fibers you can use copernics and isos. isos actually seem to be a better value

copernics and isos are something you always get when playing railjack and should certainly have a stockpile of already.

those are 8, not 4 viable resources.

[CopperBezel]

I mean, fine, you can be deliberately incorrect. As you and I know, somatic fibers and thermia are farmed for their own sake in farms that are not used for anything else, and railjack is its own independent resource economy that is newer than new players are, and in which most of your game time is in fact spent farming those resources to use them unless you're deep into optimizing rolls on parts.

I don't have to prove any of that to you because you already know it, but I am going to state it. I'm sure you're very proud of your status as a railjack veteran. 

[Proscriptor]

thermia and somatic fiber feed cost is really small for the stated reason.

railjack isn't that new anymore. it just isn't played that much buy many players. in a while, railjack won't be new at all. i played railjack since the day it came out, but i haven't played it that much in total, and i have a surplus of all railjack resources, except for fresnels and asterite. after playing railjack a lot more, doing more mining instead of gian point speedrunning, i'd be having a lot of those resources too. 

all in all, i'm not being deliberately incorrect.

[Redfeather75]

I'm forming a new party to combat your position.

[CopperBezel]

9 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

thermia and somatic fiber feed cost is really small for the stated reason.

railjack isn't that new anymore. it just isn't played that much buy many players. in a while, railjack won't be new at all. i played railjack since the day it came out, but i haven't played it that much in total, and i have a surplus of all railjack resources, except for fresnels and asterite. after playing railjack a lot more, doing more mining instead of gian point speedrunning, i'd be having a lot of those resources too. 

all in all, i'm not being deliberately incorrect.

Look, if the idea of Helminth feeding cost is to make using the Helminth costly and force people to farm isos and thermia, while throwing people who've put a lot of grind into Railjack a bone, fine. If the point is to have us go farm for a few hours to refill the gauge, fine. But call it what it is. Bile is the unique category that poses any kind of barrier at all for longtime players unlike any of the other categories. If it's further not a barrier of any kind for people who've done quite a bit more railjack than getting a decent set of MK III parts and completing the nodes, which is where I stopped, then that's equally fine. 

[LuckyCharm]

I think the costs should be nerfed or rearranged some. Even as a vet with millions of some resources, theres very few i have of others, particularly the plant one. The other thing is sure, we've played for years, but also blowing through years worth of resources at a single use feels pretty bad

[Proscriptor]

you never actively scanned the plants after the apothics quests, so you don't have a lot of plants. the fact you've been playing for years does nothing here: no plant scanning = no plant having.

depending on one's playstyle they will have more of one resource and less of another.

the natural conclusion from that can't be that all costs should be nerfed, so that these individual differences are erased.

rather, these differences in who has what add a sense of uniqueness and individuality to one's past trials in warframe.

[kgabor]

The Railjack ones definitely needs to be toned down, this is the way.

[Proscriptor]

they don't, people just need to play more railjack which they will, once railjack becomes a lot better, gets more depth, new events, new rewards etc.

[AltheusVI]

7 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

just as all the recently opened (post-release) helminth threads, which only serve the cause of nerfing any semblance of difficulty to the ground, don't contain any cogent arguments (my favorite so far is: helminth system requires us to use it in order to level it, and that's bad) ...

...neither does mine. 

if they can say "make it easier for me" without a valid reason 

i can say don't make it easier without stating any reason. 

therefore - don't nerf Helminth feeding costs. 

 

Grind isn't difficulty, its grind and shouldn't be encouraged.

[Proscriptor]

what kind of grind would this be? grinding for what, fresnels?

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

Cryotic is ridiculously high. Do the math. 100 per extractor. Only get it from excavation. 

Running the odd void mission? Who, at the end game, thinks "Oh, imma go run a void mission of all things"? 

Those railjack resources are ridiculously high and you can't say otherwise. I no-lifed RJ and still those numbers are crazy. For some resources, I can only afford 1 feed. 

5k Asterite 

1k Fresnels 

20k titanium (AKA needed for everything RJ related)

225 Nullstones 

1k Bracoids 

10k Trachons

3k Cryotic 

Don't forget the crazy percent costs themselves for infusing and subsuming. (Good luck experimenting freely)

I WAS upset about them droping the MR to 8, but after seeing the costs, it doesn't matter. It's locked to later game players through resources rather than MR. That is very disheartening for those MR8 people who can't even fathom the numbers needed (even though they want to try this system because they have the option to). They should make it MR15 to keep it experienced players but nerf costs so those experienced players can experiment a ton. It'll also give players a goal to work towards, and once they get there, they'll be able to dive in. That would be better than getting to the goal of MR8, getting the segment, and finding out they can't even do anything with it. At MR15 with lower costs, they'll achieve the MR goal and not be dissapointed by their lack of resources to try it. 

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

34 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said:

they don't, people just need to play more railjack which they will, once railjack becomes a lot better, gets more depth, new events, new rewards etc.

Tell that to me when command tree drops. 

[Proscriptor]

exactly, great things are coming up for railjack, and this is an aticipation of that