Nerf Khora; then nerf Saryn and Equinox

[(XBOX)Purdue Wolf]

If LOS is going to affect Khora; then it needs to affect other nuke frames.

Sayrn can spread spores without LOS, and Equinox can Maim through walls.

Nuke frames do not bother me, but if you do it to one frame then all frames need LOS.

One example of a previous nerf was Mirage blind effect, that was nerfed, but then Saryn was given a buff.

The point is LOS needs to affect all frames, or not at all.

 

[CatNV]

Agreed. Spot-nerfing will do more harm than good in the long run, and it ends up not affecting game balance.

[ConsumerJTC]

I dont think diseases and cooties could be stopped like so many people would hope for, by looking away so that it doesnt exist.

Its not like a directed physical whip and the blast wave it produces should be able to travel through walls in tbe first place.

Dunno about Equinox, weird ass space magic.

[Leqesai]

At this point LOS needs to be applied universally to explosives and 99% of abilities. There are only a few exceptions where breaking LOS makes sense (mostly related to some CC abilities).

Saryn is one of the worst offenders. Spores breaks LOS as does Miasma

Equinox also should have LOS restrictions on maim. Mend is one of the few abilities that should not be restricted by LOS due to it already not being incredibly useful.

Explosions bypassing LOS are a major issue. This update hilariously introduced larger AOEs from glaives which are now able to, albeit in a less effective way, do what Khora was able to do...

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

Khora was an outlier. The only thing you needed to build was the combo counter. When you hit 12 (in several casts) you're done. Equinox needs to build up damage in her Maim so you can't spam it. Saryn's spores also need to build up damage. If anything needs line of sight on Saryn, maybe Miasma.

Nuke damage isn't a problem in the game. Its spamming it that's the problem because that leads to passive game play.

[(XBOX)Purdue Wolf]

Agree that nuke damage is not an issue.  But if spamming an ability is an issue with Khora; then the can be said of Saryn as she needs to spam spores along with toxic lash and miasma.

All warframes have a spamming capabilities, so if you're trying to state spamming is the issue; then, you might as well just ask for a nuke of the whole game.

Stop trying to defend Khoras nerf, while other frames are not being balanced.

 

[Spectre-8]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)StripedWolf2001 said:

The point is LOS needs to affect all frames, or not at all.

 

That's exactly what needs to happen and should be applied to weapons as well ( some weapons do significantly less damage compared to others for no reason whatsoever )  but this time around inform everyone first instead of slipping it under the rug 5 seconds before release .

 

 

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)StripedWolf2001 said:

Agree that nuke damage is not an issue.  But if spamming an ability is an issue with Khora; then the can be said of Saryn as she needs to spam spores along with toxic lash and miasma.

All warframes have a spamming capabilities, so if you're trying to state spamming is the issue; then, you might as well just ask for a nuke of the whole game.

Stop trying to defend Khoras nerf, while other frames are not being balanced.

 

Sure spam spores all you want. In SP spores takes several minutes to kill anything. You can keep spamming it but its not gonna get stronger once its reached maximum infection rate. The enemies will kill you first before the pores kill anything.

Khora's normal attack is her strongest attack. That was the problem. DE could've nerfed it even more by removing the stat stick system. That thing shouldn't even be there because exalted weapons are moddable now. There's nothing in game that mentions stat stick mechanics for Atlas and Gara too. Those should be removed.

[Berzerkules]

7 hours ago, (XBOX)StripedWolf2001 said:

Agree that nuke damage is not an issue.  But if spamming an ability is an issue with Khora; then the can be said of Saryn as she needs to spam spores along with toxic lash and miasma.

All warframes have a spamming capabilities, so if you're trying to state spamming is the issue; then, you might as well just ask for a nuke of the whole game.

Stop trying to defend Khoras nerf, while other frames are not being balanced.

 

You don't want to spam spores. Before you call for a nerf of a warframe's abilities it might help if you understood how the ability works.

Quoted from wiki

• If Spores is still active, recasting Spores on any enemy consumes 20% of current damage per second from the infection meter and casts Spores for 50% reduced energy cost. Recasting on an infected enemy grows a new set of spores on the target, which carries up to 12 spores via recasting Spores on it.
  • Reset decay is inversely affected by Ability Strength (e.g., more strength reduces amount consumed.)
  • Recast energy discount and max spores per enemy via recast are not affected by mods.

[(PSN)CodyXSavageX]

If you use khora’s 2 and 4 I think the LoS restriction is kinda pointless and a sad consequence of trying to spam her 1 by itself, which is fine with me. Luckily, the nerf is not that bad in theory.

I don’t use saryn’s 1 for raw damage  

 

[Berzerkules]

30 minutes ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

You don't even need 12, people oneshotted enemies since the start of the mission which was, what, lvl 140? It was broken, everyone saying it wasn't had absolutely no grasp of the situation whatsoever.

You might not need a 12x combo to one shot lvl 140 enemies but she does need build up accumulating whipclaw or some combo count first. Stating otherwise is just factually incorrect. 

Khora is not necessarily broken, melee is. No one wants to admit it because everyone would be effected if DE actually balanced melee. Mods like Bleed Rush, Weeping Wounds and Condition Overload are ridiculously over powered. Then there is 700% stealth damage multiplier and finisher damage. It's easier to throw Khora under the bus than admit what is actually broken.

[DrivaMain]

It’s another byproduct of stat sticks. Fixing stat sticks is the only way. If DE let this slide, as more 5/5 disposition melee rivens getting released DE will be forced to re-adjust Khora over and over and over again. Let’s not forget new broken melee interactions too. Xoris is a good example.

[Berzerkules]

Just now, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

As long as de doesn't turn melee into unmodded primaries I'm fine with it xD

Every "build up" khora needs can be done with the initial spawns of the first  round. Saryn needs the entire duration of the round to become viable, and then the round is over and while people fight over who's staying or fell asleep you lose majority of the damage that was built up. 

Meanwhile khora doesn't give a damn about anything. There's no trade off, directly after everything resets she can one shot the S#&$ out of everything. 

Saryn on the other hand, again, needs to build up for the entire round. 

Not all frames are created equally. For the majority of normal star chat missions Gauss can out kill any other frame. He is just faster than everyone else and has a spammable aoe ability (Thermal Sunder) that just destroys normal star chart. Khora won't have a chance to whip anything when she is 3 screens behind Gauss same thing goes for Saryn and Equinox. The only thing that clears faster is Titania with Thermal Sunder. No one is calling for Thermal Sunder or Gauss nerf yet he can essentially do the same thing as a Saryn and Khora just faster. 

DE has repeatedly stated that they don't want to balance the game around Steel Path so the fact that Khora can one shot there means little to nothing for actual game balance. If we are talking about just normal star chart missions Gauss is just as bad if not worse than any "nuke" frame that regularly gets hate and cries for nerfs on a daily basis. 

All I'm saying is that it really does not matter if Khora has great DPS of Gauss is fast. DE can't possibly balance the game to make every frame equal across all game modes and difficulties. That would be boring if all frames were equal and removes any need to have near 50 frames. 

 

[Unimira]

The LoS nerf didn't even do anything to the insane damage, it only made the ability annoying to use.

[Traumtulpe]

16 hours ago, (XBOX)StripedWolf2001 said:

Sayrn can spread spores without LOS

Not quite true; You need line of sight to initially cast Spore. This was actually nerfed (Saryn has quite the long list of nerfs inflicted upon her, unbeknownst to you it seems), as you could in the past bypass this requirement by casting on Molt.

Spore is also only killing low tier enemies (and slowly), at levels where Khora still spells instant death at the press of a button.

[TehGrief]

1 hour ago, DrivaMain said:

It’s another byproduct of stat sticks. Fixing stat sticks is the only way.

This is literally so true. While it will inevitably end up as a nerf, weapon mods should not be able to affect the strength of an ability. 

Perhaps if the whip acted like a pseudo-exalted (similar to Garuda's claws - which are modded separately) it wouldn't be getting nerfed; stat sticks are only as strong as they are because of max-disposition riven mods.

 

[AriaSTG]

hmu when heals requires LOS
in the mean time, i go prep the angy tools

[(PSN)f_r_e_e_b_i_e_bg]

Let's aim to make all frames be more like current Hydro instead :). Go go power ranges!

I am not serious btw. It's often quite obvious a lot of people don't know how some frames work (that includes me as well, before you draw some conclusions) and make up their mind just because they witness "faulty" fames killing stuff very fast and in huge numbers. Sometime things aren't as obvious or simple.

[Leqesai]

3 hours ago, AriaSTG said:

hmu when heals requires LOS
in the mean time, i go prep the angy tools

Healing abilities should not be restricted by LOS imo. They are already limited in their effectiveness by the core movement mechanics. Players dart around way too fast for a healer to keep up if the heals hard LOS restrictions. Heck, in the good old days trinity could heal all allies on the map with no distance reatrictions as well. Ah.... those were the days...

[PublikDomain]

3 hours ago, TehGrief said:

Perhaps if the whip acted like a pseudo-exalted (similar to Garuda's claws - which are modded separately) it wouldn't be getting nerfed; stat sticks are only as strong as they are because of max-disposition riven mods.

Just to be pedantic:

• Exalted Weapon: A weapon summoned by an ability and modded separately. Exalted Blade, Artemis Bow, Balefire, etc.
• Pseudo-Exalted Ability: A weapon-based ability that scales with mods equipped on another item. Slash Dash, Whipclaw, Landslide, Shattered Lash, etc.
• Default Weapon: A weapon given by default when a different weapon isn't equipped. Garuda's Talons being the sole example.

Whipclaw already acts like a pseudo-Exalted ability, because it is one. Adding something like Garuda's Talons would be to add a default melee weapon you could use on Khora when you don't have a melee weapon equipped, which would be nice to have but wouldn't really change anything. Default weapons don't roll Rivens, so using Khora's default whip would be an automatic handicap compared to any other melee weapon. Making pseudo-Exalted abilities moddable would just end up the same way as Exalted Weapons: without Rivens and Acolyte mods, there's no reason to use an Exalted Weapon that is weaker than a regular weapon and costs energy to use. It'd be a nerf, not only to Khora but also to frames like Atlas and Gara who definitely aren't in need of one.

And Riven mods have an overstated impact on Whipclaw. They're strong, sure, but they're only the 3rd or 4th strongest damage multiplier. Accumulating Whipclaw is a 4.5x multiplier, and just being at 12x Combo Counter is a 3.75x multiplier. Blood Rush is a 2.15-2.35x multiplier. The strongest, most perfect Amphis Riven - that doesn't exist and would cost you a fortune if it did - would be a ~2.85x multiplier. Normal Rivens are going to be a 1.5-2.5x multiplier and that's it.

Mathematically, Rivens aren't that big a deal. That said, they do cost a lot of time and energy to roll or money to roll. You have to consider that investment. Are Rivens strong? Yes, but they're equally expensive and time-consuming. There are other sources of damage that could be addressed instead without invalidating objects people have spent the last 2 years working on.

[kwlingo]

20 hours ago, CatNV said:

Agreed. Spot-nerfing will do more harm than good in the long run, and it ends up not affecting game balance.

Or make everything equal and LoS if it does DPS. Conversation should be over with this one change.

[Kaiune]

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And Riven mods have an overstated impact on Whipclaw.

Riven prices are a huge reason people cried bout the Xoris as it could get you steady near riven damage. 

That being said How could you put LOS on Saryn's spores? The spread on their own due to several factors. Whos LOS would they spread on the spores? that would be a ton of calculations at any given moment especially on a Mhiasma cast. Both her and Equinox take a good time to build up to the room clear damage that Khora can maintain a minute into a run

Khora's nerf (while I hate nerfs) was a long time coming and its not as bad as it could be all things considered her damage is still insane and you sit at the right choke points and you can still farm easy with her. 

[DrivaMain]

3 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

That said, they do cost a lot of time and energy to roll or money to roll. You have to consider that investment. Are Rivens strong? Yes, but they're equally expensive and time-consuming.

DE doesn’t care about your riven investment. Why they adjust disposition once every 3 months? DE should remove or extremely reduce the multi layer RNG madness from rivens if they want more people to engage on it and reduce the investment risk.

[PublikDomain]

31 minutes ago, Kaiune said:

Riven prices are a huge reason people cried bout the Xoris as it could get you steady near riven damage. 

The Xoris? It had a 0.5 Disposition. Everything the Xoris did was already being done better, and had been for years. It was a downgrade in power for anyone with even a basic stat-stick Riven. All the Xoris did was make Khora accessible, since you got the weapon for free and could stay in your Zenurik safe space.

32 minutes ago, Kaiune said:

That being said How could you put LOS on Saryn's spores? The spread on their own due to several factors. Whos LOS would they spread on the spores? that would be a ton of calculations at any given moment especially on a Mhiasma cast.

Well, I don't think you should. But if you were going to, you'd probably put the LoS check originating from the individual spores when they pop, or if multiple spores are popping at once (like from death or Miasma) you'd just run a single batch of LoS checks from the originating enemy. LoS checks are as expensive as you want them to be. More accuracy means more cost, but a single raycast or trace or whatever DE calls them internally isn't really that expensive. You'd notice more performance lost due to rendering the effect than the actual physics check.

38 minutes ago, Kaiune said:

Khora's nerf (while I hate nerfs) was a long time coming and its not as bad as it could be all things considered her damage is still insane and you sit at the right choke points and you can still farm easy with her. 

Which is why it's such a lame nerf. It doesn't make Whipclaw any less powerful, it just makes using it annoying. I'm sure there's an idiom that describes this, something about the medicine being worse than what it's supposed to cure.

[Berzerkules]

4 hours ago, kwlingo said:

Or make everything equal and LoS if it does DPS. Conversation should be over with this one change.

The problem is DE's LOS check is totally scuffed. If you think the forums are a salt mine now, wait until all aoe weapons and abilities got the same treatment.