What do you think about the rushing and trigger happy style?

[Loza03]

38 minutes ago, Aldain said:

It isn't just Warframes though, Melee weapons can do AoE too, and usually do more damage on top of that.

There's no point in using a semi-auto anything unless it is on the tier of the Bramma because in the time it takes to squeeze off 2-3 rounds from the average semi-auto a melee weapon has likely already unga-bunga'd everything in the room.

Hell, taking your time and aiming a gun actually puts you in more danger than running with a melee weapon due to the nature of blocking.

You're right on the assertion that we're dug too deep for anything but a root canal level of overhauls to the core gameplay, sadly we have advocates for pressing 1 button all mission and people who literally drool over pointlessly big numbers so sadly it is unlikely that we'll ever see anything actually matter again.

...But damn me if I won't go down without a very loud opinion.

If there's one thing my recent experiments have shown off, there are still a couple spaces where melee does have a legitimate weakness, if one currently neutered by its sheer power.

For one, it's still pretty awkward against flying opponents, but more relevantly, whenever you do have to stop and take a couple swings rather than just deleting a whole squad by pressing E in their general vicinity, melee becomes pretty vulnerable to wider spaces and being surrounded by something larger than its AoE range. When smacking enemies with a garbage-tier Skana, there was never a threat against small groups or single targets since it could stunlock, but getting shot in the back  Scaling mods are the issue with Melee, since they let it hit so far above its weight class.

 

8 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

This could be fixed with a single new unit. Curb your salt.

It would probably take more than just that. I don't think the game's irretrievable or anything, but the issues seem to be more complex than a single change can resolve.

[kapn655321]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You're not going to completely curb power creep.

I'm not looking to curb power creep.

I'm suggesting innovation to parallel it so players aren't forced into nuking, when there are so many other great ways the game could be played, which are under-rewarded in spite of being more challenging.

And if you're a progressive thinker, there's no need to fight me on that point. ;)

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

5 minutes ago, Sace said:

So people going afk for a multitude of different reasons apart from gameplay is somehow the same as people going afk because there is no gameplay to begin with and all there is is to do is waiting for the round to end? 

'Man, I've seen someone go afk, luckily the whole game developed in a direction so 3 out of 4 people can go afk without it making any difference to the success of the mission. Best Co-Op-game ever'

Do you know what happens when people go afk in a game with very strict co-OP rules? Group wipes....

"I'm so sorry guys, my kid or my dog was doing x,y, and z... "

"Eff your kid, you wasted out time".

"Wtf?! Eff you I'm leaving, good luck finding another tank/heal/dps! (Leaves group, and in warframes case....(host migration...no rewards for the past 45min).

I've literally seen this happen. Like I said, no one wants your made up strict rules applied to everyone. 

Your complaints are nothing new.

[kapn655321]

5 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

It would probably take more than just that.

I need to make a thread about this, because I totally do have an answer for this. Made some brief mention to it before in the thread..

If you're hanging out in a base being stealthy, there could be a unit that adds new loot to the tileset. (Logistics unit... stocks lockers with new goodies, changes enemy parameters, gives a new more sensitive target to stalk..)

If the rewards from this unit can pace loot plows, then there's no longer a dis-incentive to this playstyle.


The bases are being replenished at some point.. and if only stealthy play styles can be there when the delivery comes in, they get pick of the litter. This does not need to be better or even different drops... just comparable, and viola. The affinity is matched by the stealth kills.. the loot is matched by the supply drops... there's no longer a problem with stealthing a base.

[kapn655321]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Your complaints are nothing new.

Then it stands to reason that there's a consistent concern there.


If players had a comparable way to play where the power creep was dis-incentivized, then it balances itself, and each player gets to willfully live out their niche on their terms.

[Berzerkules]

26 minutes ago, Sace said:

At least it is advertised as Co-Op and not Sologame. I mean it used to be more Co-Op than it is now, with powercreep trivializing almost everything and rewarding sologameplay over co-op in most cases. 

 Do you seriously not see the problem with one guy sitting in the middle nuking hydron by pressing one or two buttons for 20 rounds and then extracting while others sit by watching netflix? Is that quality content for you? Maybe they should put Idle Clicker as genre for Warframe so people are not misled into thinking this is a Co-Op game.

You're right on the power creep. It is what it is. DE really backed themselves into a corner there. They've released more and more weapons that that trivialize the game while not releasing content where that power is needed. They "tried" with SP but, if you have a basic understanding of how to mod our power is so far beyond what SP has offer, if you don't know how to mod it's sponge path and takes forever to kill. No one wins in this situation. 

I'll reply to the Hydron thing as well even though it wasn't directed at me. Hydron is a S#&$ show that is completely DE's fault. The way affinity is earned it's better to just leach than actually contribute if you want to quickly rank up. It's pathetic. Hydron is used because the enemies are contained in a small location and are easy to kill because they are still fairly low lvl. There is very little threat and there always a run up. It's not even a good way to rank up but it's consistent. 

I still like the game as a whole. It's not perfect but I still enjoy it. I'm not going to pretend that it's some great co-op mmorpg though. It is a game with a very enjoyable movement system that is grindy as hell and I like those things. If I wanted a more tactical shooter or co-op game I'd go find a game that filled those roles. 

[Sace]

vor 1 Minute schrieb (PSN)Madurai-Prime:

Do you know what happens when people go afk in a game with very strict co-OP rules? Group wipes....

"I'm so sorry guys, my kid or my dog was doing x,y, and z... "

"Eff your kid, you wasted out time".

"Wtf?! Eff you I'm leaving, good luck finding another tank/heal/dps! (Leaves group, and in warframes case....(host migration...no rewards for the past 45min).

I've literally seen this happen. Like I said, no one wants your made up strict rules applied to everyone. 

Your complaints are nothing new.

Yeah, more wipes are the consequences of encouraged co-op with sensible mechanics in place and more challenging content in general. This is no reason to work towards making Co-Op entirely obsolete outside of 'look at my glorious Frame, now step aside I need to press 4 to win the game'

I am not arguing that the solo mode should disappear for people that enjoy solo or have no time to commit to a game. It is just the Co-Op tag that Warframe bears and held up higher in the past that becomes more and more unwarranted.

I would even go as far as truly turning this into a musou-esque game and ditch the "ninja" stealth implication completely in favor of a 'this is a Warframe, a weapon of mass destruction and unrivalled fury' narrative. But even that would mean a huge rework of all levels, enemy spawn logic, mission objectives and scaling to not leave 3 out of 4 people in the dust because they like Loki with Despair more than Saryn.

I love the Musou games and can totally see Warframe stepping up to that scale and gameplay. Almost everything is better than the current situation.

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

17 hours ago, Travis05 said:

So you play the game for rewards, not for gameplay

There is satisfaction in doing something well, and yes, when you click on a mission/ fissure whatever generally it’s accepted that you’re doing it for the reward.

I too like my snipers and bows, and sometimes I will play solo to take my time and practice my aim. Yes you preemptively tried to shut down the response of “play solo,” but that’s the reality of the situation. 
 

When you have 4 players doing a level 20-40 exterminate in a fissure, what do you want them to do? Crawl through the mission alongside you, to enable you to have the gameplay experience you want? The experience you could simply have by toggling solo and not trying to get other people to play the game your way?

Your problem is already solved, you just don’t want to accept the solution. When you have 4 players in a single mode and the objective is “kill X enemies,” why on earth would it be a problem for efficiency to be a priority?

When you can get the same rewards for 90 seconds or 20 minutes, why on earth would you chose the 20 minutes? And how is a slog through easy content any more fun than blitzing through it?

Furthermore, what’s this notion that peak efficiency requires “two brain cells,” like for someone that has a maxed build etc, knows the tile, knows the enemies, what is left in terms of skill expression? Oh yeah, efficiency and speed. It’s the only real challenge for an experienced player redoing easy content.

I dunno, try it sometime, dude. 
 

Further furthermore, why would someone that doesn’t have a stealth frame bother risking to attempt a vault, when there’s say, an Ivara on the team that can handle the vaults without any chance of failure?

That’s just extremely risky and could result in a mission failure. 

Honestly, it seems like you’d be much happier with solo toggled on, dude. Other people having agency doesn’t seem to sit well with you.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Personally, I prefer a more methodical slow approach generally, when I play Warframe, so I empathise a little with those who desire more precise coordinated team work. That being said, and I know its already been talked about, but I don't expect anything from a random group in a random mission. Like another user said, some people play speedily for rewards, and that might conflict with a person that likes to go slower and enjoy the gameplay, but thats not a solution either. Everything to do with Warframe, personal styles, and the various modes and objectives within Warframe can compete with each other, occasionally even conflict. So what are 'problems' and thus 'solutions' will vary.

For myself, I know the game well enough, and what I want from the game well enough, I usually find a way to enjoy my experience. I really like Nidus for example, and snipers/bows. Running an Earth Relic Capture mission with him though, doesn't really let me enjoy the character and weapons though... but a Steel Path Survival does. Enemies are tough, slower pace (relatively), can get stacks up, bunch up enemies, which make hard hitting, slow, primary weapons fun! 

So I have different Warframes and weapons in mind for different modes and situations, with a different attitude, and play style as well, to maximise my own personal enjoyment. Depending on my mood/preference, I'll switch. Occasionally I come across a really good team, where we all seem in synch, and united feel more than the sum of our parts, with team set ups, and team combos, and amazing synergy, and its awesome. I do wish the game was set up to create that feeling more, but for me, its okay being an occasional joy. So people should feel free to express themselves and criticise the game, for not giving them what they would prefer. Personally I tend to expect what everyone prefers will be wildly different, what I personally want, will never be implemented, but I enjoy the game enough right now, and when I don't enjoy it, I'll move on. 

[kapn655321]

1 minute ago, Sace said:

I would even go as far as truly turning this into a musou-esque game

Not familiar with that term, but I've seen it in context of like... Dynasty Warriors. Let me know if I'm off base.

Had a neat idea... So like, Warframe started to lean into the hallway hero kits years back, but leaned the AI away from this.. sending players scrambling for the styles that were borne from it. To scratch the same itch, those players are nukin' it up everywhere.. but I think there are answers to all these issues that don't involve scaling back or removing aspects of the game..

How about a game mode like a driving range for just that hallway nuke niche? "Hold the gate" where a sea of enemies funnel in. Rewards are scaled lower, but it fills the role for players who just want this. Basically Hydron is an analog for this.. frankly they should just embrace it. Earn some credit to cash in for drops there, with an exchange rate to get outside materials at a premium.

Players who wanna nuke and hallway, great. Players who want to organically explore the game nodes at their own pace? That frees this up to be more of a thing.

Similar to Glast Gambit, where you had to control a room, as enemies try to flow through it. X base on X planet has a giant wall.. on the other side of it is infested for days. To maintain the wall, they need to relieve pressure from the ensuing horde by opening a gate.. and they need someone there to serve as the meat grinder. The task is to exist within the lock as a meat grinder. 1 player per lock. The nuke and practice zone. A hyper simplified defense... players can hop in and out at will.. something along those lines.

Most importantly, this kind of environment, suiting the needs of nukers and campers, will pull those players from the normal nodes and into a game that suits them.. likewise, developing in favor to other styles elsewhere, and scaling the rewards appropriate to those styles, is frankly all this game really needs to solve all this. Not to restrict players to a niche, but to meet them where their niche is. Each play style should absolutely get it's time and place to be explored on it's own terms, and value the player's time for it.
 

[kapn655321]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

I don't expect anything from a random group in a random mission

Absolutely.

Where there's still room to develop, is how the game leads players to the experience that suits them, and what it inspires them to do when they find themselves in situations.

Like, there are speedy players who want to plow through.. there are others who want to take their time.. but the speedy player is the only one really getting rewarded in the long run.

If the speedy player realizes they're undermining their rewards, and there are game modes that they would appreciate more, and would suit them best, they will tend toward those.

Where as the slow meticulous players find that... they just have to speed up, even if they don't want to. This is naturally going to make them resent the pace of the game... and for no good reason, since DE could totally fix this with giving players a reason to choose to slow down, or a better place to move on to rather than the slow nodes.

Much of the game play loop, except for endless, is plow through, hit extract, start over. This totally leaves the lurkers out of the loop.. and that's totally something that could be fixed.

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

4 hours ago, Sace said:

Then the 4 sniper-squad gets mechanics to advance regardless, but much more tedious (for example opening a locked door with weaker grenades which takes 5 minutes instead of 5 seconds while having to defend themselves or forcing a detour to 4 side objectives with no reward) and/or with significantly less rewards at the end of the mission.

Or the mission only advances to the first locked door and results in an autofail. :)

That sounds like an absolutely awful system, and I’m so glad warframe isn’t anything like that.

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

39 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

I need to make a thread about this, because I totally do have an answer for this. Made some brief mention to it before in the thread..

If you're hanging out in a base being stealthy, there could be a unit that adds new loot to the tileset. (Logistics unit... stocks lockers with new goodies, changes enemy parameters, gives a new more sensitive target to stalk..)

If the rewards from this unit can pace loot plows, then there's no longer a dis-incentive to this playstyle.


The bases are being replenished at some point.. and if only stealthy play styles can be there when the delivery comes in, they get pick of the litter. This does not need to be better or even different drops... just comparable, and viola. The affinity is matched by the stealth kills.. the loot is matched by the supply drops... there's no longer a problem with stealthing a base.

You want to stand in a specific part of a tile set for 5 minutes waiting for a NPC to rock up with a few hundred rubido and some cells?

Okay.

It’s not going to stop people finishing their fissures ASAP, you’ll just get pulled by the extraction timer.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

11 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

Absolutely.

Where there's still room to develop, is how the game leads players to the experience that suits them, and what it inspires them to do when they find themselves in situations.

Like, there are speedy players who want to plow through.. there are others who want to take their time.. but the speedy player is the only one really getting rewarded in the long run.

If the speedy player realizes they're undermining their rewards, and there are game modes that they would appreciate more, and would suit them best, they will tend toward those.

Where as the slow meticulous players find that... they just have to speed up, even if they don't want to. This is naturally going to make them resent the pace of the game... and for no good reason, since DE could totally fix this with giving players a reason to choose to slow down, or a better place to move on to rather than the slow nodes.

Much of the game play loop, except for endless, is plow through, hit extract, start over. This totally leaves the lurkers out of the loop.. and that's totally something that could be fixed.

 

I think so too, as far as room for develop, I look at being a considerable challenge, depending on the degree of refinement in accomplishing what one might consider a suitable experience. There is so much to do in Warframe, its amazing and great for variety and selection, yet it can also be consider daunting too, and a challenge as far as clashing priorities.  I generally believe every Warframe player, has multiple priorities, when playing the game, even if we can't always articulate it as such with precision and clarity. For example, I personally want to 1. Experience as much of the content that the game has. 2. Get to a position I can experience all the content. 3. Have fun. 

Objectives 2 and 3 don't have to conflict or compete with each other... but sometimes they might. So sometimes my priority will emphasis more on getting a reward than enjoying the gameplay moment, but it may serve a larger objective, and allow for more objective 3 later. For myself personally, I feel pretty lucky, because Warframe has so much content I legitimately enjoy, that I can switch around my goal in any given play session. 

Its interesting to me, to see different peoples subjective experiences and feelings respectively. Threads like this, or around certain game modes, criticisms and praise so on. What we deem rewards and so on. Like I'll agree in theory with a lot of different peoples sentiment and opinions, but sometimes just find something enjoyable or rewarding that they don't. 

The intuitive solution my brain goes to, is to create more diverse game modes, with different play styles and diverse rewards to encourage people attempt them to see if they might enjoy it, thus creating active player base/activity, people to play with. Except many people already feel spread thin and resentment can be created if rewards are too good and locked behind a mode that people don't like. Or even might enjoy... just there are walls and barriers via in game progression, (I used to hate Disruption, until I got Mesa, Kohora, Nova, etc Magus Lockdown, learned the map layouts etc) now I really enjoy it, but sometimes struggle to find random groups. Though also Disruption is more fast paced than say Survival, and I only like it with certain Frames, so even I have to be in a mood for it, and then if I play it solo, doesn't feel as fun, so even when I am in the mood... Disruption is one example, of a polarising game mode, Warframe has so many (and incidentally, I started to try enjoy Disruption, because its so good for Axi rewards, and ended up enjoying it, when I got good at it, enjoying the gameplay) so I also understand people who hate that game mode, and also annoyed its so good for Axi Relics. 

Basically I am glad I don't have to worry about balancing this game/creating content for it. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

24 minutes ago, Sace said:

Yeah, more wipes are the consequences of encouraged co-op with sensible mechanics in place and more challenging content in general. This is no reason to work towards making Co-Op entirely obsolete outside of 'look at my glorious Frame, now step aside I need to press 4 to win the game'

I am not arguing that the solo mode should disappear for people that enjoy solo or have no time to commit to a game. It is just the Co-Op tag that Warframe bears and held up higher in the past that becomes more and more unwarranted.

I would even go as far as truly turning this into a musou-esque game and ditch the "ninja" stealth implication completely in favor of a 'this is a Warframe, a weapon of mass destruction and unrivalled fury' narrative. But even that would mean a huge rework of all levels, enemy spawn logic, mission objectives and scaling to not leave 3 out of 4 people in the dust because they like Loki with Despair more than Saryn.

I love the Musou games and can totally see Warframe stepping up to that scale and gameplay. Almost everything is better than the current situation.

It's not obsolete or even close. 

The regular starchart is easy....but it's been here for 7 years....and when people learn the game and start making plat and can afford more than 4 forma, and discovering the hundreds of synergies (Nyx with a single strength mod alone trivializes the game) things are gonna get one-shotted.....doesn't matter if it's a despair or a Bramma. I can void dash ahead of my group and rapid fire despair shurikens at a fresh spawn, aiming slightly above chest level for a few headshots....no aoe required. People in public matches are always going to do whatever they want. 

The game gives options to not keep exposing yourself to public matches. You don't get to go to sports bar and be upset that people are loud and drunk. If that bothers you, watch the game at home with a friend and drink tea. That bar (public match) is a public space and you can't tell people what to do inside of it. 

[kapn655321]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

...enjoyable or rewarding...

Entirely agree.

Different players having tastes that different play styles/modes do or don't appeal to is par for the course in developing a game, for sure.

I've generally discussed 'reward' but I should elaborate on that to mean, most specifically: The basic loot.

Here's a scenario.. if a player wants to get argon crystal, they have choices within the void of what node, because we only need a few at a time. Speed run captures, camp a survival, 15 waves of defense.. these will do the trick. and all be doable within let's ballpark it between ~4-25 min. A bit of a difference per node, but not drastic, and you can accomplish it in one sort of general "trip to the void."

However, if you need 30k polymer bundles... you ain't gettin' that in capture missions.. or spy.. or opening every locker in every node on a planet. You're going to be under the canopy of a Khora with a Nekros, fulfilling the rote functions of a camp grind, or you're going to think DE has lost their mind the way the drops work in any other scenario. This is where the problem occurs. The kind of resource economy scaling/reward for the everyday pool of resources you have to pull from for basic profile upkeep.

There is no analog to the solo player who likes to crawl through a base and be a spy. This playstyle exists, but there's no reasonable way to be the sort of player that doesn't nuke or loot-meta, and still be able to sustain Warframe's general expected player experience.

If there were a way to get in around the average yield of resources through other means, I'm sure we'd find many players would vacate their spot in Khora's boring cage of loot grind, and do something more engaging... and this thirst for meaningful and rewarding gameplay, basic rewards mind you, is for the most part, lacking utterly.

[Loza03]

3 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

Here's a scenario.. if a player wants to get argon crystal, they have choices within the void of what node, because we only need a few at a time. Speed run captures, camp a survival, 15 waves of defense.. these will do the trick. and all be doable within let's ballpark it between ~4-25 min. A bit of a difference per node, but not drastic, and you can accomplish it in one sort of general "trip to the void."

Argon also has another benefit that rewards stuff like this - since it can be found randomly as items, including in cabinet, it's also viable to make a more thorough search through cabinets and looking for Pegmatites. Which is great, because the void has some of the more fun secret rooms.

[kapn655321]

52 minutes ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

It’s not going to stop people finishing their fissures ASAP

This unit wouldn't apply to fissures, because alert levels would always be up.

What it would do is keep a mission compelling for players who want to stealth, and have more to do than just move forward on a war path to extraction and repeat. This could also work to re-populate exterminates, put new loot around the stage, create events on consoles for certain spawns or conditions, etc.

If the drop rates are only comparable to basic survival, than stealth frames could do with Master Thief, what a team usually waits for a loot frame to do in survival.. and you could choose which suits your style best, rather than being beholden to one or the other due to resource economy.

[kapn655321]

2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Argon also has another benefit that rewards stuff like this - since it can be found randomly as items, including in cabinet, it's also viable to make a more thorough search through cabinets and looking for Pegmatites. Which is great, because the void has some of the more fun secret rooms.

Right. We can see in the design of the Void, that the prototypical consideration of these mechanics were baked into the game from the start.. and further considered in small part along the way.

As I mentioned in a reply to an earlier comment, the 'passion paths' are already there.. we're like.. right on the cusp of having these mechanics fleshed out and viable.. they just aren't.

Part of this has to do with needing a player to expand their kit and horizons.. you'll need a loot frame currently.. however this is shot when you can just join a party with a loot frame. This still corrals players into public due to this need, so it serves a purpose. Though, does it serve it well? If a player only branches out to use other players on the most boring way possible to exploit an arbitrarily steep resource grind.. are we enjoying ourselves? Can we enjoy ourselves and invite public games without being dragged by the nose through tedious resource farms? Absolutely.

The void rooms are a good example of how many players want to explore.. but the game doesn't foster that. By the time players get there they go, "well, I don't know how that works.. and if the rest of the game taught me anything, someone else can cheese this for me, or I can trade for it by abusing another mechanic."

It's totally fine that players can cheese, and trade, too.. but for the players that want to explore, there's a bit of dissonance there; the whole experience thus far told them, "Just don't explore.. you're literally ruining the game for yourself if you do." So like.. what do we do when we get there? B-line for the exit.. "that's something for another day, or for someone else to abuse for me." That has always felt wrong to me, and still does... and is totally fixable.

[Sace]

vor einer Stunde schrieb _R_o_g_u_e_:

That sounds like an absolutely awful system, and I’m so glad warframe isn’t anything like that.

Instead the game encourages us to play it like an Idle Clicker in endgame, as if that is way better. 

Best way for Sanctuary? Volt and skip everything.

Best way for bosslevels? Wukong and skip everything.

Steel Path? Semi-Idle Khora until you got them juicy SE.

 

The most awful kind of gameplay is being encouraged/rewarded in Co-Op currently. If you want to maximize efficiency further, solo is encouraged (except for relic farm, where you need other teamplayers only as a slotmachine-chance-booster, not their firepower or skill) Tell me how that is so much better and something to strive for.

[kapn655321]

Just now, Sace said:

...[_____] and skip everything.

Precisely.

I only learned to just get over the appeal of appreciating a map and being stealthy, when I found that this was detrimental to my ability to experience the game.

Like seriously, is it any wonder that so many players are baffled by spy missions?? _{(I learned it from you, dad!)}

Warframe literally taught me deliberately to appreciate less it's own set pieces, AI, mechanics, etc, through it's loot economy.

It's like when you just can't do the comfortable speed limit in a city, because everyone is racing to not be smashed by the person behind them.

I started loving this game.. then had to learn to resent the pacing, because it flies in the face of it's own potential, scoffs at it's level design, and totally upends it's selling points to new players.

[SneakyErvin]

23 hours ago, Travis05 said:

You can say, play solo. But that is not the issue. That solution actually solves nothing, this is a mmorpg. The teamplay should feel good, not a borefest.

Well that is massive misconception you have right there. This is a optional multiplayer co-op game, there is nothing close to MMO about it. It has no MMO server structure, it lacks a persistant world, it doesnt allow for sporadic player to player interaction and so on. Those are more or less the cornerstones of what defines the acronym MMO.

I do agree though that the game needs a massive rework in some way to balance things better. It could potentially help if they added more "mini-boss" like mobs, that actually require single target weapons and specific weakpoints you need to hit to take them down. Though their current weakpoint mobs are generally annoying since they just like to turn around waaay too often when playing solo. Still, they are good concepts that could potentially require more defined loadouts so players can handle different threats instead of just going with "derp herp AoE damage!!" loadouts.

[(XBOX)IIIIRED1IIII]

As long as they are not AFK leeching, then I don’t care how the other people play. People that do nothing and get the awards are the worst kind of players in the game.

[Lakais]

The biggest issue I see is that there really isn't any downside to having the enemies be on high alert. In fact, with the way the game is set up, it is PREFERABLE for the alert to be set off so more enemies spawn. Same with running and gunning. There are no reasons why you shouldn't go in with an Ignis if it can one-hit erase an enemy squad. But putting handicaps in just to curb this style of play will not go over well with the player base. 

The only thing I can think of short of nerfing a lot of weapons and/or making enemies more like Nox units with dedicated weak points is for affinity and loot to be tied to enemy alert levels. Where you have the stealth bonus now, but what if you only get 50% Affinity from the enemies if the alarms are blaring? What it with every alert, lockers that are open have a chance to lock up? Drops from crates would have to be toned down to make stopping for lockers be actually worth the effort though. 

But the core issue here is not something DE can fix. Literally there is nothing that DE could ever do to change or affect this behavior. The core issue is player motivation; are they motivated by the gameplay or the end-screen? If the player is motivated by the core gameplay, then the reward screen is meaningless. The gameplay IS their reward! But right now, the main motivation of the vocal playerbase seems to be the reward screen. It's all about efficiency, the loot. For that thing to farm with the least effort possible. And I honestly can't imagine how or where to steer this ship to deal with this. Clearly this is "working as intended" for enough players that the game is chugging along nicely. 

[kapn655321]

2 hours ago, Lakais said:

enemy alert levels

While I think you're on the right track, there's something I'd mention to this: To incentivize behavior, you don't want to do so in a punitive way, but by offering the positive incentive to compel the behavior.

Like.. not the best analogy.. but, training a dog.. they don't learn to speak and roll over by punishing them when they're not speaking and rolling over, they learn it from treats and positive reinforcement. The point is not to prohibit nuking, but to make the player have an incentive more compelling than nuking.

In this case, there are plenty of players in this thread already, saying that they are interested in not playing to nuke, but simply can't because it diminishes their reward.. and while that changed player behavior, it also makes them resent aspects of the game and public. This can be achieved without encouraging spite at the same time.

We don't start the game with super nukes at our disposal, so we can naturally learn these mechanics when we're just starting, and come to notice that we don't see them any more when we go loud.. whatever they may be.

Whether it be a logistic unit or something else, a consistent reward for exploring and patience can be exchanged for a reward of nuking, and vice versa, is all that needs to take place for us not to lose and spite that playstyle.

If I didn't have to start nuking ages ago, I would know every inch of every map, and play as much of the game with a silenced pistol and Hydroid as possible... but I can't, and in a way I resent that more than a bit.