What do you think about the rushing and trigger happy style?

[Travis05]

I can come across as negative or whining or toxic. But im tired of the kind of playstyle the game is trying to promote lately. Everyone have a different tastes. So if you like it, nothing wrong with that. Just want to tell my experience, and then you can come with your own conclusions.

I usually play public always, and im tired of trying to compete with my team for kills. AOE weapons, nuke warframes...The map is clean in seconds, and im there with a hitscan weapon, looking like an idiot. I like sniper and precision, and frames that reward skill. However, with this game is almost impossible to use more than two braincells in most cases. Might as well just stay AFK and see my team clean the mission. 

You can say, play solo. But that is not the issue. That solution actually solves nothing, this is a mmorpg. The teamplay should feel good, not a borefest.

On the other hand, people hate anything that isnt extermination. My team today let me clear two of the three vaults in a spy sortie because they were too scared to fail. I literally waited 10 minutes in the third vault door until someone finally decided to step in.

This is what happens when you make people used to turn off their brains. 

I see people hate spy. If the developers decide to erase that, or focus only on extermination and forget everything about defense or the rest of the modes...thats the day im out of here. Idk how they will change things in the future, it seems they are mostly focused on railjack now. But the base game needs a good touch in my opinion. Less innovation and more rework.

 

 

 

[Krankbert]

Gerade eben schrieb Travis05:

On the other hand, people hate anything that isnt extermination. My team today let me clear two of the three vaults in a spy sortie because they were too scared to fail. I literally waited 10 minutes in the third vault door until someone finally decided to step in.

Would you have preferred them to go in and fail the mission for everyone? This is what happens when people know their limitations.

[Firedtm]

11 minutes ago, Travis05 said:

I can come across as negative or whining or toxic.

just starting with that, you became someone who looks like they are Whining and Toxic, edit it out.

as for your topic/point/argument. it is sound and makes some sense, but as @Krankbert pointed out, it is great that some players stop when they get to their limitations, vs going gung ho into things, and flat out making you fail the mission.

[krc473]

3 minutes ago, Travis05 said:

On the other hand, people hate anything that isnt extermination. My team today let me clear two of the three vaults in a spy sortie because they were too scared to fail. I literally waited 10 minutes in the third vault door until someone finally decided to step in.

What I am taking from this is that you decided to grief your team by deliberately delaying the mission. People don’t rush into vaults if they aren’t confident, because they then get yelled at if they fail. The people who come here to complain that their team doesn’t help tend to also be the ones to complain when their team accidentally fails a mission. 

• I’d say just suck it up and do the mission without assistance next time. It’s quicker to carry three people through the mission once than to have to run it a dozen times because they keep failing it.

Did you take the time to check and see if anyone in your team was confident in doing the vaults? What about explaining to them how to do it?

 

[Merrcenary]

8 минут назад, Travis05 сказал:

I usually play public always, and im tired of trying to compete with my team for kills. AOE weapons, nuke warframes...The map is clean in seconds, and im there with a hitscan weapon, looking like an idiot. I like sniper and precision, and frames that reward skill

because the faster you clear the map, the faster you can start a new one and thus open more relics, etc.

if you don't like it you can play solo and waste 20 minutes using your sniper rifle and precision for 5 waves of defence

[Travis05]

hace 7 minutos, Merrcenary dijo:

because the faster you clear the map, the faster you can start a new one and thus open more relics, etc.

if you don't like it you can play solo and waste 20 minutes using your sniper rifle and precision for 5 waves of defence

So you play the game for rewards, not for gameplay

[MagPrime]

Public missions tend to be straight to the objective and out, that's been true for years.  

I wont say "hurr durr go solo" but I will say; maybe start out with a friend or two in the team or get a group of like minded players together instead of asking total strangers to play the way you like. 

[Krankbert]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Travis05:

So you play the game for rewards, not for gameplay

How about you stop assuming that your gameplay preferences are universal.

[Surbusken]

Because of the grind, people generally try to play as fast as possible, which usually comes down to damage.

Like if you want to Eidolon hunt you have a limited window, where less damage means less payout equals more grinding. Or grinding out relics you blast capture missons on Volt.

Add to that damage chasing it's a game in itself, something to work towards and keep it interesting grinding the same maps over and over.

It's also integrated into the response time and flow of the game, with fast paced action and burst fire.

Sure, as with everything else, powercreep becomes the baseline.

You can't have abilities with too long a cast time, aoe weapons with wall glitching splash damage over single target weapons and so on.

... but none of it is the players' fault.

Minus the ever increasing grind, I still support at least the combat. I like how can I mod any frame any way I want. I can fill up all slots with health and armor and then not even use abilities if I don't feel like it.

Since the game is so easy it's also very casual. No one blaming anyone for leaving a map having done 0% damage.

You are free do what you like, without it hurting the team, we all get paid either which way.

 

[Merrcenary]

3 минуты назад, Travis05 сказал:

So you play the game for rewards, not for gameplay

what gameplay are you expecting from extermination mission?

[kapn655321]

I've heard this a lot over the years, but there are reasons behind it as well.

So like.. say you want to play solo.. but can't because everything is balanced for 4 players cooperating entirely. Ok, so maybe not even solo, but 3 players cooperating would still be holding on by their fingernails if it's scaled for 4. What does DE do in that case?

Let's look at it another way... If everything has to be done just so, then it's no longer about building how you want, and is instead solving a single puzzle per build, and following a rote support role per mission. Then who gets the fun role? Who gets the lousy role? Waiting for party comp to be perfect to do anything... "I'm already Tracer," etc.

I'm someone who doesn't do Spy, and likes to turn their brain off. Why? Because for everything else it is, it's also a horde shooter I can play while splitting my attention on a Podcast and grinding. There's a hell of a lot of the player base that would agree.. and obviously a few others that prefer missions like Spy, or something more intensive.

Steel path is also an option now, too.


But you do bring up a valid point about.. What are the missions that do require great struggle and party composition? We've covered that it cannot be the whole game, or this would be a comparatively dead title.. and the remaining players would be try hard dictators on the headset bickering over who gets to be the lousy part of party comp.

There's something more, though: What incentive is there to have a more meticulous playstyle?
This is where I think the game has room to innovate in an optional way. I've mentioned in the forums before, that crawling tactically through a base serves practically no purpose. There was a slight change to this with Gas City having the secret lab and challenge rooms on Lua or void meant to answer this.. but one lab/room does not a game mode make.

What I'd like to see are units populating a base that operate the base. Logistics units to stalk that restock things.. optional ways to hack consoles and engage more elaborate content.. like calling in supplies, alerting the rest of the faction to your presence at that base, etc.. something that makes staying put and being tactical, worth something. Currently, the incentive is just plow through, and farm in survival.. which is great for those players, and those players are necessary to the game as a whole. I'd also like to see engagement to those who don't want that style.

What purpose is there to take your time and be stealthy, when it just means you're kneecapping your loot, right? There should be an answer to this for folks who want to pick a base clean without ever being noticed. Something that head-empty casual playstyles will never encounter, and incentivizes people take their time in tilesets and learn stealth mechanics and map layouts intimately. Positive comparable incentive for meticulous exploration, and potential challenge.

[ReddyDisco]

sounds more like a "you" problem and not the game

 

[GEN-Son_17]

Playstyles in Warframe are always going to be the effect of pub experiences, load-out and the overall randomness that comes with people. Your playstyle would work great for players used to CoD but would be terrible for RPG players used to multi-target magic. This is just a testament to how wide a player range this game has. My advice would be to look for a crew in recruitment chat. Luckily, the game has that option.

[Wyrmius_Prime]

14 minutes ago, Travis05 said:

So you play the game for rewards, not for gameplay

The core gameplay doesn't change at all from day 1 to year 7 of playing the game. That S#&$ gets old.

[kapn655321]

8 minutes ago, Travis05 said:

So you play the game for rewards, not for gameplay

This is precisely what needs to be answered.

You can lurk a base like a shadow.. and at the end of 40 minutes, you get... nothing much. There's a negative incentive for people who want to really indulge in the set pieces and stealth mechanics.

Imagine if, after clearing a section, when the alert level goes down and they think the coast is finally clear, units make their way to those parts of the base to restock the base, send new units, change alarm protocol, etc..

At some point, there has to be a shipment of new supplies coming in, right? What if we were there for that, ONLY if we're dedicated, stealthy, and patient? This is where I see a logistics unit needed.. someone to restock the lockers, call in shipments.. a passive unit that gets real sketched out real easy. Diablo 3 players would find a somewhat similar analog with Treasure Goblins.. where they go around picking up scraps.. but both that, and the other way around. They won't be there if you're loud. reckless, and dangerous.

If you can balance the payout to compare in some way to the normal playstyle, then it's a player's personal preference which approach they take.

[Travis05]

hace 21 minutos, kapn655321 dijo:

I've heard this a lot over the years, but there are reasons behind it as well.

So like.. say you want to play solo.. but can't because everything is balanced for 4 players cooperating entirely. Ok, so maybe not even solo, but 3 players cooperating would still be holding on by their fingernails if it's scaled for 4. What does DE do in that case?

Let's look at it another way... If everything has to be done just so, then it's no longer about building how you want, and is instead solving a single puzzle per build, and following a rote support role per mission. Then who gets the fun role? Who gets the lousy role? Waiting for party comp to be perfect to do anything... "I'm already Tracer," etc.

I'm someone who doesn't do Spy, and likes to turn their brain off. Why? Because for everything else it is, it's also a horde shooter I can play while splitting my attention on a Podcast and grinding. There's a hell of a lot of the player base that would agree.. and obviously a few others that prefer missions like Spy, or something more intensive.

Steel path is also an option now, too.


But you do bring up a valid point about.. What are the missions that do require great struggle and party composition? We've covered that it cannot be the whole game, or this would be a comparatively dead title.. and the remaining players would be try hard dictators on the headset bickering over who gets to be the lousy part of party comp.

There's something more, though: What incentive is there to have a more meticulous playstyle?
This is where I think the game has room to innovate in an optional way. I've mentioned in the forums before, that crawling tactically through a base serves practically no purpose. There was a slight change to this with Gas City having the secret lab and challenge rooms on Lua or void meant to answer this.. but one lab/room does not a game mode make.

What I'd like to see are units populating a base that operate the base. Logistics units to stalk that restock things.. optional ways to hack consoles and engage more elaborate content.. like calling in supplies, alerting the rest of the faction to your presence at that base, etc.. something that makes staying put and being tactical, worth something. Currently, the incentive is just plow through, and farm in survival.. which is great for those players, and those players are necessary to the game as a whole. I'd also like to see engagement to those who don't want that style.

What purpose is there to take your time and be stealthy, when it just means you're kneecapping your loot, right? There should be an answer to this for folks who want to pick a base clean without ever being noticed. Something that head-empty casual playstyles will never encounter, and incentivizes people take their time in tilesets and learn stealth mechanics and map layouts intimately. Positive comparable incentive for meticulous exploration, and potential challenge.

I see you get the point i was trying to make. I think i might quit the game, since like you said there are no incentives to do things in a different way. I dont see the developers trying to incentivate more playstyles, despite this game having a ton of customization options and mechanics (some of them completely abandoned). So at the end, it all comes to the same playstyle. the same builds and the same options.

It seems the "playing solo" advice makes more sense than i thought. I dont think things will change in the future, and i have no friends who like this game either.

[kapn655321]

6 minutes ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

Your playstyle would work great...

Not quite.

You could spend a mission stealth killing everything and robbing the place blind.. but ultimately everything you get pales in comparison to having barrelled through a survival with a loot crew.

I used to play like this.. but the game's loot economy balance is NOT sustainable this way, whatsoever. It would take years to earn the loot for throw away weapons this way! Spending 30 minutes crawling a single base, compared to twiddling your thumbs behind a Khora in a hallway on survival, is in no way on the same footing. That's kind of a problem to players who want to be 'ninjas.'

[Krankbert]

The problem is that you can't make other players play stealthily, but a single player can absolutely make enough of a ruckus to force everyone else out of the stealth gameplay, at which point we're back to square one.

[kapn655321]

1 minute ago, Travis05 said:

I dont think things will change in the future, and i have no friends who like this game either.

Well, I wouldn't be so sure there, either. Been here since 2014, and I've seen a lot of things I gave up hope on finally get reworked.

All of this could be fixed with a logistics unit, and some special interactions from them..

With an exception: What do you do when part of the party doesn't want to do this, and part of the party does?

I've got to dig through my old posts to find my write ups about these issues. In short.. logistics units, allow part of the party to go to the next mission from a console near extraction, and have more options at consoles to effect the mission parameters after objectives are clear.

If the group you start with wants to barrel onto the next node, end the mission, or stay back and rob the place blind, those could all be options.

Perhaps the ability to find people who want to do this, could be in this console exchange as well: If the game can link you with players who are also proving to be skilled, patient, and meticulous, it may be able to bring them to your attention and ask.

[-JT-_-R3W1ND]

  

24 minutes ago, Travis05 said:

because they were too scared to fail. I literally waited 10 minutes in the third vault door until someone finally decided to step in.

WOW. There did you find this ppl? THREE IN ONE PARTY.

Does this really happend? Or you just imagine this to proof your point?

Becouse this is never, never, never, never, never, happend to me for 5 years. Everytime somebody rush to point and fail it ASAP. And by ASAP i mean it. I've still at A and somebody already trigger B.  And another situation, man deside he is the greates spy, and walk into room ignoring somebody already in. Surprisingly this cause fail. Always.

Rarely. One person. Is intelegent enough to think "maybe i can just give this guys few second, before i rush and fail." And still, most of the ppl are good, fast and clean.

7 minutes ago, Travis05 said:

So you play the game for rewards, not for gameplay

And what are you calling "gameplay"? Staying 10 mins at the door? OK.

You know, reward is the part of the game. Using good tool to win is the part of the game. Manage to end mission as fast as you can is the part of the game. If you find your own way to play — great. Since then you think you are the only one who do it right?

45 minutes ago, Travis05 said:

Might as well just stay AFK and see my team clean the mission

 

45 minutes ago, Travis05 said:

I literally waited 10 minutes

Exuse me, but... What exactly do you want? You don't like if team doesn't let you play, you don't like if team let you play. 

[Travis05]

hace 8 minutos, -JT-_-R3W1ND dijo:

  

WOW. There did you find this ppl? THREE IN ONE PARTY.

Does this really happend? Or you just imagine this to proof your point?

Becouse this is never, never, never, never, never, happend to me for 5 years. Everytime somebody rush to point and fail it ASAP. And by ASAP i mean it. I've still at A and somebody already trigger B.  And another situation, man deside he is the greates spy, and walk into room ignoring somebody already in. Surprisingly this cause fail. Always.

Rarely. One person. Is intelegent enough to think "maybe i can just give this guys few second, before i rush and fail." And still, most of the ppl are good, fast and clean.

And what are you calling "gameplay"? Staying 10 mins at the door? OK.

You know, reward is the part of the game. Using good tool to win is the part of the game. Manage to end mission as fast as you can is the part of the game. If you find your own way to play — great. Since then you think you are the only one who do it right?

 

Exuse me, but... What exactly do you want? You don't like if team doesn't let you play, you don't like if team let you play. 

I want everyone playing and cooperating obviously, engaging and fun gameplay. What are you confused about? There is a difference between me carrying everyone and me being totally unnecessary in the mission. Things doesnt work only on extremes. 

This is the game fault, not them (i think something is very wrong if you cant prepare them, game design problems). And yes, it happened exactly like this, i imagine because there are more people yelling and insulting others for failing. First time it happened to me, usually its just one people.

I waited for mere curiosity to see what they would do. It certainly was strange. And made me question if spy wont die as a mode, due to this.

I dont want to be the only one who do it right. I want my playstyle not dying due to design choices

[Krankbert]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Travis05:

I want everyone playing and cooperating obviously

That's not going to happen though, isn't it? I think the more fundamental problem with the mode is that you're never going to actually cooperate in a spy mission. You're going to do a puzzle by yourself while someone else does another puzzle, also by himself. That's not cooperating, that's just singleplayer gameplay that other people can make you fail at.

[kapn655321]

5 minutes ago, -JT-_-R3W1ND said:

Does this really happen

Absolutely it does. Taxi-ing and carrying players has always been a thing. Remember that players only need to beat a node once.. and not every player is interested in meticulously learning the layout of a base through several failed (and changing) attempts.. They could just go there, expect to fail it, but find someone capable.. realize they can just hang back, and never need to run it again. This happens often.

I know, because I've been one of them. I don't do spy in my spare time, because there's no incentive.. Not to mention, if you have Ivara, or someone does, there's no reason to bother learning. You just let the Ivara do it, mission complete, and bounce out consistent with the rest of the game as a whole.

Now, if there were a reason to be in a base longer, and the game taught people to learn the whole tileset, and reward players for it, then it would be consistent. Players could blow off steam between spy hacks, be invited to do this playstyle low stakes for reward, and be encouraged to stay in and learn it themselves. They aren't currently.. but they could be.

[Loza03]

22 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

There's something more, though: What incentive is there to have a more meticulous playstyle?

 ^

I'm not sure to what degree or in which direction it should go in, but there's this phrase I've heard recently: "You want to build a city, you need to make the roads".

 

31 minutes ago, Travis05 said:

So you play the game for rewards, not for gameplay

The two are innately intertwined.

The loot exists to be a carrot to chase. The loot should be placed in such a way that chasing it just-so-happens to position you in the playstyle that's intended. For example, Deep Rock locks it's best cosmetics and upgrades behind easily-missable nooks and/or complex encounters. Monster Hunter positions all its best weapons against progressively stronger beasts, and has their patterns be memorisable and telegraphed just so that you become more accustomed to it as you hunt. Even Destiny leverages complicated, teamwork-focused mechanics for players to get its good stuff. It also extends to non looter games. DMC rewards more orbs for higher style ranks, Racing games obviously reward good driving be it raw speed or performance in certain challenge tests, and in terms of exploration, well, just look at every half-decent Metroidvania ever made. Especially Hollow Knight. Good lord that game has a ton of hidden content. Like, seriously, half the game is hidden stuff.

 

If you don't want Warframe to be a race-to-the-finish experience with the lowest engagement possible... stop rewarding players exclusively for racing to the finish without engaging with content.

[kapn655321]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

leverages complicated, teamwork-focused mechanics for players to get its good stuff

So there's also a problem here, which is no doubt why there's a hang-up.

If this is the way for players to get this stuff, that doesn't mean people WANT to do it.. it means they watch a youtube video, go in stressed out biting the ankles of their team for every little thing, meta and leave.

What I would say is if you can get or trade for good items for hours of grind or hours of lurk.. so long as you show the game that you appreciate your time in it, and engage with it's various mechanics, then rewards should be in kind.

Take "Raids" for example.. that game mode speaks to tight party composition and cooperation through great difficulty... but what was the experience? Potentially, 8 players screaming at each other that they don't know what they're doing... soulless meta cheese and resentment of the mechanics... etc. This is not consistent with the outcome we're asking for, right?

You're dead right about the 'city'. The good news is, the passion paths already exist, they just need a bit of asphalt on them.