Update 30: Sevagoth + Epitaph Feedback Megathread (Closed)

[Rovaeden]

-snip-

[(NSW)Doomnougat]

I mean, he's basically Baruuk.  Use abilities to prep meter, use meter to become melee monster.

Baruuk is extra strong because of adaptive damage, and Sevagoth is strong because forced slash procs.

There are some flavor differences, but they're both fundamentally similar and both really strong when they're doing their core thing.  Baruuk is just all in on defenses with his meter builders, where Sevagoth is a little more offense based with an undying gimmick as backup.

I'd overall agree that he feels clunky, and it'd be great if he played smoother and faster.  But he is definitely not weak.

[Rovaeden]

9 minutes ago, (NSW)Doomnougat said:

I mean, he's basically Baruuk.  Use abilities to prep meter, use meter to become melee monster.

Baruuk is extra strong because of adaptive damage, and Sevagoth is strong because forced slash procs.

There are some flavor differences, but they're both fundamentally similar and both really strong when they're doing their core thing.  Baruuk is just all in on defenses with his meter builders, where Sevagoth is a little more offense based with an undying gimmick as backup.

I'd overall agree that he feels clunky, and it'd be great if he played smoother and faster.  But he is definitely not weak.

I never said he was weak.

I said he was virtually worthless for Steel Path.

I have gone on to clarify that without a powerful weapon he cannot manage Steel Path.

For starchart he is fine, but so is every other frame.
I don't see the value in a frame that plays this clunky and slow, does nothing that any other given frame cannot do better, and costs so many forma to make what in most any other frame would be a Steel Path build.
Period.
I'm not wrong.

[LagartoPunkarra]

1 hour ago, Rovaeden said:

So Peter, the 15+ forma on the OVERALL kit is all that needs be mentioned.

 

27 minutes ago, Rovaeden said:

I said he was virtually worthless for Steel Path.

9 forma (and because he was using primed and umbral mods), and doing solo Steel Path Kuva Survival.

28 minutes ago, Rovaeden said:

I have gone on to clarify that without a powerful weapon he cannot manage Steel Path.

And that argument isn't valid, most Warframes can't manage Steel Path without powerful weapons.

[Rovaeden]

On 2021-04-19 at 8:43 PM, Robbery525 said:

I was going to make my own feedback thread, but I think this one sums up my thoughts so far on him.

Here is what I have problems with, and possible solutions:

• Main Form:
  • Casting for 1-3 times are too slow for how weak the abilities are.
    • GLOOM is a STRONG ability, but you need to specialize for it for it to be worth while at all, because otherwise the drain is crazy high. Half your energy could be gone by the time the animation is done playing. More on this later.
  • Passive
    • Great idea, poor execution. My only problem with it is that I cannot melee enemies in shadow form. For some reason, pressing the 'melee' button casts consume instead, launching you across the map. This is absurd, not fun, and frankly useless. Its better to just let it time out and resurrect as normal, because its less frustrating that flying past enemies constantly. If this passive is what you want, let us have full normal control over Shadow, not a gimmick version.
  • REAP
    • After looking at the stats, I think they are mostly ok. default duration feels low, but the speed changes I suggest below will more than help with that.
    • Should have no casting animation. As in it shouldn't interupt whatever you are doing, your ghost should just fly off of you.
    • Possibly synergy opportunity with 4 that was missed (highly desired by me!)
      • You should be able to cast REAP and send your shadow off into the distance. Then, similar to Wisp, if you cast your Exalted Shadow you assume control of the REAP shadow wherever it is. This will result in much more fun and dynamic gameplay using REAP and Shadow.
      • If you cast Exalted Shadow while reap is active and assume control, the remaining duration of REAP becomes an AOE around you. Though this may already be the case, since killing while in shadow form already fills the death well.
    • Reap shadow is very slow to move. Also, it starts behind you. Also Also, the animation on the tooltip looks way faster than in-game speed.
      • Recommend starting either ON your position, maybe slightly in front. This position won't have to be adjusted if speed is increased per below.
      • Recommend increasing the speed of the shadow.
        • Maybe have the speed dynamic, where the further the shadow strays from you the slower it goes. This will also resolve the 'slow' feeling when you first cast it, as it will move quickly in the casting direction. If you turn 180* and tell it to move, it can return to you quickly and slow as it moves away again.
        • I think the dynamic speed like this would make it more fun to use, as you could essentially keep up with it (thus keeping its speed high) instead of briskly WALKING past it.
  • SOW
    • maybe have this be a targeted ability instead of AOE centered on self. Which how much death is happening immediately around you, the  area behind you feels wasted. If you want it centered on self, maybe do a hold to cast situation.
    • Damage feels low, even at 230% strength, but I know that its meant to be used with REAP, making it good at high level enemies.
    • % HP damage not shown in stats.
  • GLOOM
    • Energy drain (combo of casting cost + /s drain) too high to be reasonably usable with base energy available on the frame.
    • Casting speed very slow. Energy drain shouldn't start until animation complete.
    • Max range should increase if energy drain is unchanged.
       
• Exalted Shadow
  • Shadow Claws
    • Damage is low. This can is also adversely affected if you happen to specialize Sevagoth (not shadow) for something other than power strength.
    • Recommendation: Strength of the claws (and maybe their base reach?) are determined by SHADOW's mods instead of SEVAGOTH's mods.
      • This allows you to specialize Shadow and Sevagoth, instead of sacrificing stuff on sevagoth to make shadow halfway decent. Especially since both are acting as seperate frames.
  • EMBRACE
    • No complaints. Feels good to use, decent energy economy. I like it.
  • CONSUME
    • As I noted above, CONSUME feels too hectic. Its not like other dash abilities where you feel in control of them. this one sort of just launches you in a direction, and you slide past everything. It feels clunky to use, and since you don't get to see the carnage you slid past, it feels like it does absolutely nothing. Its quite infuriating, and frankly I dislike it completely.
    • Recomendations:
      • Use it to jump onto an enemy. Dash can be kept if enemy is not targeted (or held to dash - preferred).
      • The wording is CONSUME. Therefore, I was hoping that it would be able to target an enemy, dash to them, and rend them. Maybe perform an AOE claw attack at the enemy's location. The dash on the way to targeted enemy can have the current effect it does not though.
      • By targeting an enemy (instead of sliding past it uncontrollably), the player will have more agency in melee focused combat, can use it to swiftly move around the battlefield, and in general this combination will make the combat much more fun than frustrating.
    • Movement:
      • As OP noted, Shadow does indeed feel slow. he may not be slow, but it feels slow. Part of that is the 'float' nature of the jump, which definitely IS slow compared to a frame. I think that it should be sped up as well, but maybe not by 30%. Start slow (heh) when increasing his speed if you choose that route. But I would definitely atleast think about increasing the jump speed.
      • I put this in this section because the targeted consume change would help with maneuvering easily through the battlefield in a controlled manner.
      • Also, how sweet would it be if instead of gliding through enemies in a straight line, you kind of rocketed up and arced toward your target when casting consume, ending in a small AOE around them. Almost like a mortar. This would be a pretty fun augment!
  • Deaths' Harvest
    • I actually don't have any complaints here. I do have a suggestion though:
    • CHANGE CONSUME TO THE TARGETED ONE I MENTION ABOVE.
      • Not sliding past your group of enemies, and instead landing in the center on your target allows synergy with DH by allowing you to get into the pack of enemies, then cast DH. This greatly improves the combat loop of Shadow, over the current loop of:
        • 1 -3 - melee
        • 1 -3 - melee
        • S#&$ I accidentally pressed 2.
        • 1 -3 melee
  •  

I meant to mention on the day you posted this that I love everything about it. Nice write up!

I love your idea of Consume being a leap attack and I immediately thought of Garuda's 1 Dread Mirror, or 2 Blood Altar where she leaps to an enemy to execute the ability. There is so much more control in that ability.
Consume as it stands is just awful and I hate that it is forced use during the passive.
Modding for Range for Embrace makes Consume even worse to try to use in any map (most maps) that is anything other than perfectly straight, long hallways. It makes me want to build Shadow for negative range just to make Consume less miserable to use. (my actual solution was to retire Sevagoth to the bottom of the toy box)

Honestly, as I think about it, I would much prefer Consume to just be a buff that affected Shadow Claws.
That would also fix the chaotic mess of the passive so you could just melee attack 5 enemies who would immediately die and fill the passive because claws would be buffed with the improved Consume from the passive.
Solved.
Easy.

 

I also particularly love your idea of Reap having synergy with 4 where you can just take control of the Shadow where ever it may be. That would be awesome and its lack is a missed opportunity for potential greatness. Also a lack of casting animation for Reap would be wonderful, as if the Shadow is a being possessed of its own will and setting out to haunt enemies rather than a mindless ball of energy that Sev has to Haiduken around the place.
 

 

I don't think Sow needs to be a targeted aoe but I do think it needs to scale so that it actually does more than tickle enemies on steel path.

Ultimately, my entire issue with Sev can be boiled down to "Shadow is clunky and un-fun to use and overall the kit is not viable (without a powerful additional weapon) for steel path".
It really isn't an accomplishment that Sevagoth can "omg like totally wreck enemies on star chart!!" wooo.... golf clap.

With the addition of Steel Path to the game that is the new barometer for success for a new frame, like it or not.

Anyway, back to Sow.
Given how Sevagoth is such an active ability use frame, he should be able to consistently fill his Death Well with only his own powers regardless of the mission he is playing.

The FACT that, in Steel Path, I have to cast Sow, ignore Reap and proceed to kill enemies with my melee weapon in order to summon Shadow so I can kill enemies with my exalted melee weapon...?
Umm.. its stupid.
Why bother?
Why not just toggle gloom and finish the mission with my equipped melee weapon and ignore Shadow altogether? Might as well Helminth over his 4 at that point with Dispenser to help with energy conservation.
...or just play Nidus... or Inaros... or anyone really.





 

[Gemini145]

On 2021-04-21 at 1:29 AM, Gemini145 said:

Edit: Want to come back and complete my feedback: The change to how energy drains(per enemy per second) is good. If you use narrowed minded to shorten the range of gloom, it actually works better than the previous version. But it also limit you to close range combat. And in cases where range is needed (for other abilities), the cost from 10/s to 15/s is still a nerf. 

After 30.0.7: "from increasing to 1.5 per enemy" I thought it was from infinitely increasing -> 1.5 per enemy LOL

Wow. You guys acutally buff gloom. The drain is now 7.5/s.

[(NSW)Doomnougat]

I'm confused.  Why would you not use weapons?  I'm with you on him being clunky and slow, but "can efficiently kill new game+ enemies unarmed" is a weird criteria for "usefulness."

[Rovaeden]

58 minutes ago, (NSW)Doomnougat said:

I'm confused.  Why would you not use weapons?  I'm with you on him being clunky and slow, but "can efficiently kill new game+ enemies unarmed" is a weird criteria for "usefulness."

Excellent question! Now we are getting somewhere.

I am not universally advocating that Sev should be played without weapons. I am merely attempting to illustrate a point by suggesting that someone do exactly that as a legitimate test of his abilities in Steel Path.

1.) All of the video examples of "proof", bar none, that people have shoved in my face showing Sev in Steel Path, actually show him killing enemies with his melee weapon after using Sow to spread his debuff. This is the only way the player in the video is able to fill the Death Well in Steel Path. Sevs Reap and Sow alone just don't cut it.


2.) To zero in on exactly what Sevagoth can do with his inherent kit alone requires that we look at him in isolation as well as compared to similar Warframes.

* Can other Warframes kill enemies in Steel Path with melee weapons? Yes.  - This example is too vague and does not drill deep enough. Moving on.
* Do other Warframes have abilities that make killing enemies in Steel Path easier? Yes. - This example is also too vague and does not drill deep enough. Moving on.
We need to get more specific with our examination of Sevagoth, so we ask...

* Can Sevagoth stand apart from other frames by dealing with Steel Path with his abilities alone? No. - Ok, this is interesting, especially for a frame requiring so much investment of forma. Lets examine further.

* Can other Warframes with Exalted Weapons deal with Steel Path with their abilities only? Yes. - This question is getting closer to the core of the problem. For example, my Excalibur Umbra can absolutely shred Steel Path with only an unmodded skana equipped because his ability kit is appropriately designed and appropriately powerful.

* Can Sevagoth, once he gets into Shadow Form kill Steel Path enemies with ease? Yes! But getting into Shadow Form is almost impossible without a powerful weapon equipped with which to do the killing of enemies debuffed by Sow!
The stupid Death Well mechanic seriously handicaps Sev in Steel Path!
I have to use my weapons to activate Death Well!

3.) Why would I bother with Shadow Form melee when I am already wielding a melee weapon that can kill Steel Path with ease?
Why not just build for Gloom maximization, ignore Shadow completely and just kill my way through Steel Path with my weapon, much like any other Warframe?
Might as well Replace his 4 with Roar or Warcry. - you can still use his passive if you replace 4 btw.

And all this isn't even addressing how clunky Shadow form is to play.


 

[BRZZAFK]

9小时前 , FirstHunterPrime 说:

In my opinion on the current state of "no blood rush on exalted weapon" is what's making Sevagoth's  exalted weapon sometimes feels like trash 

It's not about damage really. Damage ability is about how fast it can clear room. In that perspective Reap Sow combo does better job for most part of the game. Making little sane to use the shadow . I will much prefer a stronger and faster shadow that drain death well twice faster than the the current status it is .  

[JosephBasher]

The Reap what you Sow gameplay loop is incredibly inconsistent depending on what faction you are facing. The combo is extremely ineffective at mid to high levels of armored enemies even when they are tightly grouped. Against unarmored enemies however, given a sizable enough cluster, one Reap/Sow combo is enough to one-shot. To make this combo consistent, and avoid extreme disruption of Sevagoth's gameplay loop while combating armored opponents, the current damage type of Blast for the radial damage component of Reap/Sow should be changed to true damage, or dealt as a Bleed proc. The combos performance against unarmored opponents would remain unaffected as they are already easily one-shot as described above, while it's performance against armored enemies would then be consistent with the damage it does to unarmored targets. 

[inappropriatename5877]

Sevagoth's Gloom VFX are severely cluttering the screen when you have a sentinel equipped. Please make it so that his Gloom does not obstruct the FoV this much. Also. his claw attacks feel clunky and sometimes miss enemies completely. Might want to take a look into that.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

8 hours ago, BRZZAFK said:

It's not about damage really. Damage ability is about how fast it can clear room. In that perspective Reap Sow combo does better job for most part of the game. Making little sane to use the shadow . I will much prefer a stronger and faster shadow that drain death well twice faster than the the current status it is .  

I haven’t really found Sow/Reap to be all that strong. It gets nullified pretty hard by armor, so for heavy targets I usually use Shadow, and then I stay in shadow for a while.

[LagartoPunkarra]

12 hours ago, Rovaeden said:

This is Warframe. There is only DPS.

Trinity cries in the corner because of that statement

[MaiLou123]

9 hours ago, JosephBasher said:

The Reap what you Sow gameplay loop is incredibly inconsistent depending on what faction you are facing. The combo is extremely ineffective at mid to high levels of armored enemies even when they are tightly grouped. Against unarmored enemies however, given a sizable enough cluster, one Reap/Sow combo is enough to one-shot. To make this combo consistent, and avoid extreme disruption of Sevagoth's gameplay loop while combating armored opponents, the current damage type of Blast for the radial damage component of Reap/Sow should be changed to true damage, or dealt as a Bleed proc. The combos performance against unarmored opponents would remain unaffected as they are already easily one-shot as described above, while it's performance against armored enemies would then be consistent with the damage it does to unarmored targets. 

 Sounds like you want to 1-shot everything. xD Reap is debuff, no dmg ability. Want big dmg? Use Shadow! You are supposed to use all your abilities and weapons, not just Reap/Sow. 😑

If you want to kill everything with 2 buttons, there is always Mesa or Saryn. Leave Sevagoth alone pls.

[JosephBasher]

55 minutes ago, MaiLou123 said:

 Sounds like you want to 1-shot everything. xD Reap is debuff, no dmg ability. Want big dmg? Use Shadow! You are supposed to use all your abilities and weapons, not just Reap/Sow. 😑

If you want to kill everything with 2 buttons, there is always Mesa or Saryn. Leave Sevagoth alone pls.

He is intended to nuke with his Reap/Sow combo, and does nuke everything that isn't armored. Reap/sow is the primary way you are supposed to fill your death well per the dev-streams where they showcased Sevagoth. There are many, many 2 button kill combos, and very few of them are meta because they take more time to setup than just meleeing or using one of the more meta nukers like you mentioned. 

[Sergent-Qc]

Sevagoth's first impressions:

- The frame is too slow for me, sorry.

- The frame is too Forma intensive.

- Default sprint speed is to low, we would need PRIMED RUSH !

- Visual effects on his #3 is too intense.

- His Shadow is too slow and it needs a lot more agility.

- His claws attack speed is much too low, even with Berserker.

- His claws attack range is abysmal.

Sevagoth's gameplay is not fun, sorry DE, but a no go for me.

[inappropriatename5877]

Shadow's attack animations while moving don't play sometimes.
 

[Razgris05]

The effects of Gloom on Sentinels are disruptive on the viewing experiences during gameplay.

On certain angles, the black circular effects are blocking up the view which the player can see, making it hard to aim to attack.

Maybe the black effect can be removed or change the visual effects of Gloom activation on Sentinels would be better?

[Yulfan]

Sevagoth's Shadow has no energy color of its own but uses those of Sevagoth. The problem is that the energy for his cloak, as well as that for Embrace and Consume only uses the first color alone and the second is totally ignored. Likewise, the energy color of Shadow's ephemera only use the first energy color of Sevagoth. Only Death's Harvest correctly uses both colors.

But overall, the fact that Sevagoth's Shadow didn't have his own energy colors is a bit of a letdown.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

sevagoth :

Squishy caster frame with life steal and slow as mean of survival ? Nay, use augur mods / brief respite aura / rolling guard, and tenno to heal.
reap is OK to fill his gauge, and as a debuff, sow+reap is an OK damage ability if you manage to pack the mobs
gloom... why would I slow ennemies and life steal when I can just use transference to heal or immobilize them ? (arcane lockdown + repair ...), tbh I replaced it with Ensnare, and really don't regret, ensare has a cheaper energy cost, provides an arguably better protection, and makes reap + sow useable.
his passive... is a gimmick, but may still work during the first minutes of a survival in steel path.

Shadow :

Still not tanky enough. It's not even as durable as Lavos.
Embrace is his bread and butter, add some range and it's a good vortex/larva/ensnare
Consume is inconsistent, sometimes it heals, sometimes you jump above NPCs head without healing
Death harvest cost way too much for what it does, switching to Sevagoth and using reap

His claws :
it's slow, but has forced slash on heavy attacks, so ... just use a typical heavy attack build and it's OK. (to be noted that it can be equipped with condition overload, but you can consistently use a primary or secondary gun to add more status)

[Zilotz]

DE, please actually play the game a bit before finalizing changes (and not on test stage but in real mission like mid tier 40-50lvl survival or defense)!

Gloom drain is just crazy in places you need the ability to survive.

So when you have 10+ enemies around(which is a situation when you need it) it will drain from 7.5(which is a lot already) to 75(which is crazily lot) energy/second at base.

Actually in max drain it will eat full energy pool(not even including activation cost) in just 2.5 seconds.

What can be done with it:

1) Current min drain(7.5) would be new max drain.

2) New min drain will start from 0.

[Pixxel_5]

The energy requirements, even after you "fix" the latest changes to Gloom, are utterly ridiculous.

Part of his kit scales already, but part of it does not. Thae damage vulnerability, for example, should be an armor/shield strip instead.

The amount of Forma required for a semi-decently rounded build is ridiculous. Between his base form, his shadow, and his exalted weapon, he should come with more polarities. As it stands, I don't see myself investing a dozen Forma into him and rather just wait 3 years until his Prime frame is released. I did the same with Titania and Octavia and don't regret my decision in the slightest.

[0meg4x]

Most interesting Warframe I've seen since the beginning of time.
Hats off to everybody involved! 

The few things I find odd about how the Warframe plays are:
1. Unable to see the Range on Sow, The current AoE effect doesn't necessarily tells you anything since it's impossible to tell where the smoke lands 😅
2. The Warframe self-revives at random, dying and standing there doing nothing gets you back up, sometimes.
3. Exalted Shadow's Slide Attack (Nightfall), not sliding? I mean, It does the thing but in place, instead of propelling forward as every other melee's slide does.
4. Exalted Shadow's Forward + Melee (Soul Thresher) consisting of only 2 inputs when the combo has 4 strikes, results in a double-slice per input making transition between combos awkward. I've played Valkyr for 8 thousand hours so I kinda know a little bit what melee should feel like, these last 2 really make Sevagoth's Exalted Shadow feel kinda wonky 🤣

Other than that, Awesome job!

[Yulfan]

Il y a 3 heures, Zilotz a dit :

DE, please actually play the game a bit before finalizing changes (and not on test stage but in real mission like mid tier 40-50lvl survival or defense)!

Gloom drain is just crazy in places you need the ability to survive.

So when you have 10+ enemies around(which is a situation when you need it) it will drain from 7.5(which is a lot already) to 75(which is crazily lot) energy/second at base.

Actually in max drain it will eat full energy pool(not even including activation cost) in just 2.5 seconds.

What can be done with it:

1) Current min drain(7.5) would be new max drain.

2) New min drain will start from 0.

Sorry but this is false. Gloom's drain is nowhere near this absurd. Few minutes in the Simulacrum is enough to witness the energy drain : at base, the drain is 0.75/s for each enemy, with a maximum of 10 enemies. There isn't any increase of the base drain itself over time. It will always stay at 0.75/s per enemy. Wich mean the max drain you can ever experienced is 7.5/s when unmodded. With a base energy pool of 188, minus the activation cost and without energy input in the meantime, Sevagoth's energy is depleted in 18.4 seconds.

This kind of drain is manageable. You can stack efficiency and duration to lessen the drain, or you can increase your mean to regain energy. In my case, i chose the latter : i only run with 128% Duration (with Prime Continuity lessened by Transient Fortitude, and Prime Flow for the pool) without any efficiency mod and build my Sevagoth around the combo Equilibrium and Synth mods on my Diriga. Because he has good Precepts for hitting multiple enemies and using Gas on his weapon (and thus frequently trigger Synth Deconstruct), I have a very consistent energy supply (in addition of normal energy orbs). I can do 40+ min Arbitration survival missions with Gloom up almost all the time without breaking a sweat.

[(PSN)Remy-J-Frost]

Hello, I am not entirely certain whether or not this is intended but I felt it pertinent to bring to someone’s attention just in case it is considered an exploit. I recently brought the new frame Sevagoth into an Infested Salvage mission on Eris and I noticed that he is capable of holding up to 6 antiserum for the vaporizers. 3 for him and 3 for the shadow. The game registers there are 6 on screen so I wasn’t certain if this was intended. Either way felt it was important to point out.