On-kill buffs only help guns that can, you know, already kill...

[Godmode_Ash]

Imaging if the melee combo counter only build from when you score a melee kill, rather than from any hit. Then when you post a feedback and the community's response is, "you just got to use gun/ability to lower enemy health, then finish it with melee to build counter." Imaging how awkward would it be for melee situation

"On hit" proc is just stupid in a co-op game, it's like telling Trinity player to roll another warframe. It create unnecessary requirement to have to rely on builds instead of focusing on the individual weapon. Powerful weapons wouldn't have any issue, it's the weaker weapons that will get left out even more.

[RichardKam]

To be very honest, you are a space ninja killing stuff with your supernatural warframe. You have 4 abilities. You have companion. You are a superpowered being called tenno. How difficult it is to kill stuff in SP? Even my bottom tier Nyx can do that with braton in SP. 

If your primary or secondary is having problem killing one single enemy in SP, you are playing this game wrong. Unless your complain is the "full squad fighting for enemies to kill to get buff" then it might be fair. But then your complain will be "not being the most efficient in a squad" rather than "the galvanized mods have a design problem".

[Godmode_Ash]

1 hour ago, RichardKam said:

If your primary or secondary is having problem killing one single enemy in SP, you are playing this game wrong. Unless your complain is the "full squad fighting for enemies to kill to get buff" then it might be fair. But then your complain will be "not being the most efficient in a squad" rather than "the galvanized mods have a design problem".

But the Galvanized mods are still the root problem because the buff is designed to be "on kill" instead of "on hit."

Because we have to kill to get the buff, a Trinity player using Cycron would have harder time to get buff compare to a Mirage using Pyrana Prime. If the buff trigger by on hit, there wouldn't be problem like this.

The point is not whether if any weapons can kill in SP, but rather the new mods will make popular/stronger weapon even more demanding.

[trst]

3 hours ago, Godmode_Ash said:

But the Galvanized mods are still the root problem because the buff is designed to be "on kill" instead of "on hit."

Because we have to kill to get the buff, a Trinity player using Cycron would have harder time to get buff compare to a Mirage using Pyrana Prime. If the buff trigger by on hit, there wouldn't be problem like this.

The point is not whether if any weapons can kill in SP, but rather the new mods will make popular/stronger weapon even more demanding.

But the situation of squad mates last hitting enemies is irrelevant in this game. If someone else is consistently getting all the kills, especially in the case of nuke/weapon buffing frame vs a supporting one, then there aren't going to be many things for other players to kill to begin with. Hek WF even manages to be a "co-op" game where leachers are beneficial because spawn rate is tied to squad size.

Plus the buff durations all have 6-24 second windows with most falling around 20 seconds. Chances are anyone who can't consistently kill within those time windows either isn't contributing much to begin with or one person/their squad is over contributing.

And the changes aren't meant to address the disparity between guns but the disparity between guns and melee, nothing more. And even if they did it's a simple fact that better weapons will perform better than worse ones.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

9 hours ago, Battle.Mage said:

what does it have to do with "on-kill" contribution?
somehow you're ignoring the topic!
also: if you already post experience, you should at least not cheat and drive others astray! IT DEPEND ON WARFRAME, WEAPONS, ARCANES, BUFFS FROM CAT ETC.

My dude... YOU miss the point - 

If I can still kill super fast, getting "on-kill" isn't a problem. :/  

At worst, weaken them with your melee and finish 'em with your guns... 

Point was, I took non-meta guns into Steel Path with a half-arsed mod config, and STILL killed things with little to no effort WITHOUT Warframe buffs, companion buffs, etc.

WHICH MEANS:  *drum roll....*

WITH buffs it's even EASIER.  Which means this is really not the monumental issue people are making it out to be.

Hell, I might just go film a vid or two to drive the point home. :/ 

[mrpyro12345678]

В 24.06.2021 в 05:31, ElecDeathblade сказал:

DE are stuck up on not buffing primaries and secondaries in the traditional "put better stats on the weapon" way (which they actually did for the melee).

That's because Melee originally had drastically lower stats than guns and still kinda do. The guns currently have no multiplicative mods like Melee does, but they have higher stats. Unfortunately mods like Condition Overload and Blood Rush makes for extremely broken gameplay based around insane amounts of multipliers. That's literally the only thing making Melee better than Guns - the multiplication condition mods.
And now, Guns are getting condition mods to scale them. Just like CO and BR.

I really don't see any reasons to hate the arsenal divide,
it literally gives melee's scaling mods to guns, so you can proceed to scale your weapon to oblivion just like how currently melee does.

Edit: That said, I think the nerfs are necessary, honestly. Dealing more damage than what the OS can handle SHOULD NOT BE LEGAL (overflowing damage into negatives).

[Balegrim]

On status and/or critical hot. That's the way. Condition overload works this way. Melees have condition overload. Give guns this sort of utility or they'll just keep lagging behind melee by a lot. 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 26 Minuten schrieb (PSN)JustJoshinEnt:

My dude... YOU miss the point - 

If I can still kill super fast, getting "on-kill" isn't a problem. :/ 

i'm not your dude and i am right. you don't have to declare your opinion as truth from the last instance.
and what's the problem again? I said that damage depends on an extremely large number of factors. in addition there is the weapon, enemy and enemy lvl.

but the discussion makes no sense if we are constantly turning in circles. bye.

[Godmode_Ash]

1 hour ago, trst said:

But the situation of squad mates last hitting enemies is irrelevant in this game. If someone else is consistently getting all the kills, especially in the case of nuke/weapon buffing frame vs a supporting one, then there aren't going to be many things for other players to kill to begin with. Hek WF even manages to be a "co-op" game where leachers are beneficial because spawn rate is tied to squad size.

Exactly, nuke/weapon buffing frame will last hitting easier than support frame to benefit the proc, because the mods are designed to proc from "on kill."

Change the design to "on hit" or "on crit/status" will solve the issue. Also lessen the disparity between strong and weak weapons.

 

1 hour ago, trst said:

And the changes aren't meant to address the disparity between guns but the disparity between guns and melee, nothing more. And even if they did it's a simple fact that better weapons will perform better than worse ones.

Just because the original idea was to solve an issue, doesn't mean you shouldn't consider any new issues that the solution will bring. 

[trst]

14 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

Did you just prove my point from your writing?

Nuke/weapon buffing frame will last hitting easier than support frame to benefit the proc, because the mods are designed to proc from "on kill."

Change the design to "on hit" or "on crit/status" will solve the issue. Also lessen the disparity between strong and weak weapons.

 

Just because the original idea was to solve an issue, doesn't mean you shouldn't consider any new issues that the solution will bring. 

It's a situation that will always exist, period. The real point being frames that are designed to kill with abilities or amp their own damage should be getting more kills. Even if the condition was changed it wouldn't solve the problem of frames like that getting more kills and having more damage doesn't matter if there isn't anything to kill. Especially if you want to bring in the augment of using bad/non-meta weapons on non damage frames.

And it doesn't bring in an issue of better weapons being better as it's already an existing "issue". Not all weapons should be viable in high leveled content to begin with and even if they were there isn't a good solution to be had with mods as it's a mechanic and base stat issue.

[Godmode_Ash]

27 minutes ago, trst said:

It's a situation that will always exist, period. The real point being frames that are designed to kill with abilities or amp their own damage should be getting more kills. Even if the condition was changed it wouldn't solve the problem of frames like that getting more kills and having more damage doesn't matter if there isn't anything to kill. Especially if you want to bring in the augment of using bad/non-meta weapons on non damage frames.

Sure, there will always be problems in WF and many factors are too complex to solve. But the whole point of this discussion is about the undesired "on kill" proc design. If you are going to support it, you haven't provide any argument that why "on kill" is better than "on hit/crit/status" that some of us have suggested instead.

I am genuinely curious what you have against "on hit/crit/status?"

 

27 minutes ago, trst said:

And it doesn't bring in an issue of better weapons being better as it's already an existing "issue". Not all weapons should be viable in high leveled content to begin with and even if they were there isn't a good solution to be had with mods as it's a mechanic and base stat issue.

And "on kill" effect will cause meta weapons to be even more desirable/demanding. Isn't that what we should be avoiding if the goal is to balance the game, even if its a small steps?

[trst]

2 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

Sure, there will always be problems in WF and many factors are too complex to solve. But the whole point of this discussion is about the undesired "on kill" proc design. If you are going to support it, you haven't provide any argument that why "on kill" is better than "on hit/crit/status" that some of us have suggested instead.

I am genuinely curious what you have against "on hit/crit/status?"

 

And "on kill" effect will make meta weapons even more desired/demanded. Isn't that what we should be avoiding if the goal is to balance the game, even if its a small steps?

An on-hit/proc conditional creates a disparity between low/high RoF and innate aoe/punchthrough weapons. Which is far worse than a disparity between good/bad weapons. And since the entire purpose of a weapon is to kill enemies anything that can't fulfil the condition of "kill anything within 6-24 seconds" isn't a weapon that should be considered useful for the content one is trying to put it through.

And again you can't solve the meta weapon "issue" through modding. Especially as mods will always favor weapons with better base stats which is what makes a meta weapon to begin with. Even if the galvanized mods could, somehow, favor bad weapons over meta ones you still end up with meta weapons scaling better once stacked.

[RichardKam]

6小时前 , Godmode_Ash 说:

But the Galvanized mods are still the root problem because the buff is designed to be "on kill" instead of "on hit."

Because we have to kill to get the buff, a Trinity player using Cycron would have harder time to get buff compare to a Mirage using Pyrana Prime. If the buff trigger by on hit, there wouldn't be problem like this.

The point is not whether if any weapons can kill in SP, but rather the new mods will make popular/stronger weapon even more demanding.

But why a Trinity with Cycron SHOULD have the same efficiency killing stuff compared to mirage with Pyrana P? It seems like you want all frames and weapons to be equal while there should be differences.

[Godmode_Ash]

18 minutes ago, trst said:

An on-hit/proc conditional creates a disparity between low/high RoF and innate aoe/punchthrough weapons. Which is far worse than a disparity between good/bad weapons. And since the entire purpose of a weapon is to kill enemies anything that can't fulfil the condition of "kill anything within 6-24 seconds" isn't a weapon that should be considered useful for the content one is trying to put it through.

And again you can't solve the meta weapon "issue" through modding. Especially as mods will always favor weapons with better base stats which is what makes a meta weapon to begin with. Even if the galvanized mods could, somehow, favor bad weapons over meta ones you still end up with meta weapons scaling better once stacked.

There are already mods altering value base on the fire rate, such as Internal Bleeding. If DE do decide to change it to On hit, I am sure they can work with numbers. But for on kill you can't adjust the value, its just decide by last hit. There are also other limitation like needing builds to support the weapon kills.

I never said on hit will solve meta weapon issue, I only said it will not create further disparity.

 

9 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

But why a Trinity with Cycron SHOULD have the same efficiency killing stuff compared to mirage with Pyrana P? It seems like you want all frames and weapons to be equal while there should be differences.

They shouldn't, but ideally the less the gap between the two is the better to an extent. If the gap is too far, why bother play support frame when dps frame are the one that can actually kill.

[General_Durandal]

On 2021-06-23 at 6:52 PM, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

What are the values? What are you saying?

Riven disposition.

~Fusilai (1.35)~Is the best throwing secondary.
(Damage=77 - Status Chance=29% - Crit Chance=23%)

~Kunai~
(Damage=46 - Status Chance=8% - Crit Chance=8%)
and (MK1) (1.51)~ Are the worst throwing secondaries.
(Damage=40 - Status Chance=2.5% - Crit Chance=5%)

~Hikou (1.3)~
(Damage=36 - Status Chance=10% - Crit Chance=4%)
and~Hikou Prime (1.25)~ Are in the mid ground.
(Damage=26 - Status Chance=28% - Crit Chance=6%)

Hikou and Hikou Prime should have = or < Riven disposition since they,
deal less damage, have less crit chance, and have less status chance.

[trst]

2 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

There are already mods altering benefit base on fire rate, such as Internal Bleeding. If DE do decide to change it to On hit, I am sure they can work with numbers. But for on kill you can't adjust the value, its just decide by last hit.

I never said on hit will solve meta weapon issue, I only said it will not create further disparity.

The conditional on Internal Bleeding is a clunky mess and should be an example of what not to do. As it creates room for weapons that would greatly benefit from the mod but their stats don't work with the condition.

Killing enemies is a universal condition, any weapon that can't do it is just bad, while making it based on other stats like RoF is going to create more disparities.

[Godmode_Ash]

38 minutes ago, trst said:

The conditional on Internal Bleeding is a clunky mess and should be an example of what not to do. As it creates room for weapons that would greatly benefit from the mod but their stats don't work with the condition.

IMO Internal Bleeding is a bad design because the idea of converting impact/slash and the laziness behind it, but that's not the point.

I was giving example how DE could manipulate weapon differently from each other with a single mod. I was just giving an example how it's already implemented in game.

 

38 minutes ago, trst said:

Killing enemies is a universal condition, any weapon that can't do it is just bad, while making it based on other stats like RoF is going to create more disparities.

Killing is not a universal condition because, like you stated, some weapon are just stronger and some are weaker. Weaker weapon will have harder time to keep up the kill which create more demanding on using strong weapon. If stronger weapon has easier time to receive buff, then its not universal, it's selective advantage.

On-hit however is universal, because all weapons can land hits. DE can make the mod to adjust stack gain base on RoF, all weapons can will gain benefit and there is no specific builds required. It wouldn't matter which warfarme/weapon a player bring, all setup will be able to gain stack without worrying about the competition.

How would you feel if melee combo counter only goes up from actual melee kill rather than on hit?

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

6 hours ago, Battle.Mage said:

i'm not your dude and i am right. you don't have to declare your opinion as truth from the last instance.
and what's the problem again? I said that damage depends on an extremely large number of factors. in addition there is the weapon, enemy and enemy lvl.

but the discussion makes no sense if we are constantly turning in circles. bye.

Bud, I literally limited the factors down to JUST the weapon and mods, and I accounted for the STRONGEST faction..   What other factors would HINDER the damage?

Here's a youtuber that did what I did, but more science-y...  

 

[Aldain]

3 hours ago, Godmode_Ash said:

How would you feel if melee combo counter only goes up from actual melee kill rather than on hit?

-nervously sweats-

That would feel awful...

Spoiler

DO IT DE.

 

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

I think people are missing that "On Kill" rather than "on Hit", means that AS THE SITUATION INTENSIFIES, you'll get the MOST benefit... and your bonuses ebb as the intensity of the battle does, too.  

That's more balanced than just "keeping max OP power all the time!".  

Hell, I'm with Aldain... maybe DE SHOULD change some melee conditions around (and I LOVE melee, lol)

[RichardKam]

4小时前 , Godmode_Ash 说:

Killing is not a universal condition because, like you stated, some weapon are just stronger and some are weaker. Weaker weapon will have harder time to keep up the kill which create more demanding on using strong weapon. If stronger weapon has easier time to receive buff, then its not universal, it's selective advantage.

That's.......what strong and weak means.......strong weapon is stronger than weak weapon........which is weaker than strong weapon. Do you want 100 different guns, or one same gun with 100 different skins? Braton prime will always be stronger than MK-1 braton. 

If the condition is on hit, the stack is really meaningless because for a rifle or burst rifle at > 4 shot per second, it will always be at max stack. The new galvanized mod will be a direct replacement of all vanilla version, which totally change the landscape of modding across all difficulty. Also, I can still complain "on hit" is not fair for sniper rifle and "oh my Trinity with Lanka cannot hit as fast as Mirage with Braton MK-1 to get buffed so imbalance fix it DE".

[RichardKam]

5小时前 , Godmode_Ash 说:

They shouldn't, but ideally the less the gap between the two is the better to an extent. If the gap is too far, why bother play support frame when dps frame are the one that can actually kill.

It is because, in a blitz mission like exterminate or capture, no one need support frame.

On the other hand, for endurance mission, your support frame will be useful.

But, are you aware that you are playing a "support frame"? You support, not kill. Leave that job to chroma or xaku. 

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

To people saying "you can kill stuff with primary / secondary, even if it's not meta, so on kill buff will proc'", yes this sentence is true, but also they are missing some points :

"on kill" will be bad for everything butt missions where you have steady flow of ennemies

The ramp up will be slower than melee combo past 15min if you lose your stack.

you NEED to kill more than 1 mob per second in survival, and sometimes you have to find them after clearing a room (thus losing your buffs)

Those buffs are less consistent than x12 combo for which duration can be extended in several ways. This point needs further details about how duration will be adjusted when you kill multiple mobs : either it's a simple refresh of the timer, or the duration stack (like warcry eternal war)

All additionnals buffs (arcane and mods) are triggered with "on kill", so it's all or nothing (people will scatter in survival to get the buffs...)

-> don't make both arcane and mods trigger with "on kill"

-> duration should stack

[Galuf]

I mean, even if you don't proc anything particular, as long as you do 2 status you will do more damage than now, afterward there is always the armor stripping option, wich makes most non bottom tier ranged weapons able to kill anything in SP pretty well. After the melee nerf, you won't do nothing great with your melees in SP unless you are playing a heavy attack build, and be sure that some rifle and pistols will do a better job than that. Hybrid damage potential getting halved and gun ceiling beeing more than doubled is not small, it will literally shift the meta. Ignis wraith was already decent in the higher tier of non sp content, it will probably be do wonders even in SP now. I don't know why DE does all that but it's another story, I would rather have meaningfull content ^^'.

[Monolake]

Yeah its a non-soluition and DE again doesn't play their game, otherwise they would see same few guns dominating high-level play even more than melee. Massive carpet buffs will only make same aoe guns even more dominating. The weak weapons will not be able to compete and will remain unused.

Even no-new-mods Brama or Knukor outperform several-times buffed singletarget mediocre rifle or secondary - you can test it yourself with frame damage buffs.

But its impossible to talk any scene into DE