Please revert changes to the Kuva Grattler and give it the same stats as the normal version.

[ZEFFEZ]

4 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Read through the thread to learn more about why it is an upgrade.

It does end up with higher DPS due to no spool up time and less time spent reloading. I explained it in detail with goofy math up above, but the QOL improvements are significant and make Kuva Grattler a straight upgrade to the regular variant.

I agree that the kuva is mush better, Although I think they should have left the fire rate alone, it is much better overall, especially with the mag size and no spool.

[T-Shark69]

15 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I'm also quite vocal about this topic because I don't feel like Kuva Grattler received any sort of nerf.

I see it in relation to the base variant. Do you think it would be too powerful if it has the same damage stats as the normal Grattler? 
I have the same feelings about the Kuva Hek and Scattered Justice. It still is better than the normal Hek in both stats and the element addition, but there is no reason to not add the augment to a grindy later game content weapon because it would invalidate a mr 4 gun you bought for credits. It's why I dislike different riven disposition across diferent weapon variants too. 

[Leqesai]

On 2021-07-21 at 1:57 AM, Leqesai said:

Ahhh I see.

Yeah I do really really really like Grattler (and Kuva Grattler). I think your points are valid, I just think the QOL improvement should not be overlooked. It is significant and makes the Kuva variant much easier to use. Even if it did have a lower DPS than the regular Grattler I think the Kuva variant would be my preference simply because of the QOL improvements.

I am also quite vocal about Grattler because I think the community largely ignores this weapon because they go ga-ga over Mausolon, which is inferior in every way other than magazine capacity.

I'm also quite vocal about this topic because I don't feel like Kuva Grattler received any sort of nerf. The way I see it the stats were corrected and made consistent with what you see when linking the weapon in chat.

With the same build (with only fire rate added to kuva and reload speed mod added to regular) I ran a test to kill 20 level 150 heavy gunners. 

The Kuva variant (with 55% toxin)
22.29 seconds

The regular variant 
28.71 seconds

 

The thing that kills the regular variant for sustained DPS is the low magazine. Even with a faster reload speed mod this is what kills it. Not only do you lose time from all the reloading, but every time you reload it has to re-spool again. 

 

Edit: It should also be noted that both builds use a riven with stats specific to Grattler (Multishot, Reload Spee, +Electric and negative status duration). The regular variant gets a much more significant boost from this riven.

Okay, so upon closer inspection my assertions have been off. Fire rate instead of reload speed consistently generates faster kill times on the regular Grattler. I ran the test again with exactly the same mods on each weapon (added fire rate to regular variant) and got very different results.

Against level 150 Heavy gunners (x20) this is the result of 7 more tests:

Regular variant
20.93 seconds
23.20 seconds
17.57 seconds
16.66 seconds
16.32 seconds
22.77 seconds
19.24 seconds

Regular Grattler average: 19.53 seconds

Kuva variant 55% toxin
16.67 seconds
15.08 seconds
21.31 seconds
16.73 seconds
15.94 seconds
15.80 seconds
15.07 seconds

Kuva Grattler average: 16.66 seconds

 

And just for the record. I'm not saying these weapons are the best in the game.
Did the same test with Kuva Bramma and got 11.09 seconds.  :P
Getting under 10s with Kuva Bramma is not only achievable with this test but I imagine it would be fairly easy to do (the only timed test I did was pretty dirty).

[Leqesai]

25 minutes ago, T-Shark69 said:

I see it in relation to the base variant. Do you think it would be too powerful if it has the same damage stats as the normal Grattler? 

Too powerful within the family of weapons it resides in, sure. Even with the same base damage it would not outclass the top-shelf primary/secondary weapons but it would certainly be competitive. Grattler was already the best arch gun IMO. Kuva Grattler is better than the base variant so it is even further ahead than the other options. If it had the same base damage it would be way far ahead of all other arch guns (which makes the rest look really bad IMO. Aside from Kuva Ayanga, Mausolon, Larkspur and Velocitus).

25 minutes ago, T-Shark69 said:

I have the same feelings about the Kuva Hek and Scattered Justice

I agree with this. Would I use Scattered Justice on Kuva Hek? Most likely not since we have the galvanized mods now, but it certainly seems like the mod should be compatible.

[zuraja]

The build I'm running in the normal Grattler

https://overframe.gg/build/new/1069/grattler/?bs=WzEsMTA2OSwzMCwxLFtbMjUwNCw4LDEsW1sxNTQsMC4wNDQ1NDQ1NDQ1NDQ1NDM1XSxbMTQ0LDAuNzM1MzEwNDk4NDY4MzkzN10sWzE0MiwwLjU2MDM0MTM1MzgzMjA1NzJdXSxudWxsLDgsMSwwXSxbMjg2LDUsMF0sWzI4Nyw1LDBdLFsyNzgsMywwXSxbMjc5LDMsMF0sWzI4MSw1LDBdLFsxNDUxLDUsMF0sWzQ2MzIsMTAsMF1dXQ==

Same build in the Kuva version (mine is 58.5% so this is pretty close to the actual performance I get)

https://overframe.gg/build/new/5572/kuva-grattler/?bs=WzEsNTU3Miw0MCwxLFtbMjUwNCw4LDEsW1sxNTQsMC4wNTEyMTc4ODQ1NTEyMTczNV0sWzE0NCwwLjczNTMxMDQ5ODQ2ODM5MzddLFsxNDIsMV1dLG51bGwsOCwxLDBdLFsyODYsNSwwXSxbMjg3LDUsMF0sWzI3OCwzLDFdLFsyNzksMywwXSxbMjgxLDUsMV0sWzE0NTEsNSwwXSxbNDYzMiwxMCwwXV0sWyIzIiwwLjZdXQ==

I gain a less than 1% increase in sustained DPS and lose almost 25% burst DPS.  This is absolutely a downgrade.

 

 

[Leqesai]

10 hours ago, zuraja said:

The build I'm running in the normal Grattler

https://overframe.gg/build/new/1069/grattler/?bs=WzEsMTA2OSwzMCwxLFtbMjUwNCw4LDEsW1sxNTQsMC4wNDQ1NDQ1NDQ1NDQ1NDM1XSxbMTQ0LDAuNzM1MzEwNDk4NDY4MzkzN10sWzE0MiwwLjU2MDM0MTM1MzgzMjA1NzJdXSxudWxsLDgsMSwwXSxbMjg2LDUsMF0sWzI4Nyw1LDBdLFsyNzgsMywwXSxbMjc5LDMsMF0sWzI4MSw1LDBdLFsxNDUxLDUsMF0sWzQ2MzIsMTAsMF1dXQ==

Same build in the Kuva version (mine is 58.5% so this is pretty close to the actual performance I get)

https://overframe.gg/build/new/5572/kuva-grattler/?bs=WzEsNTU3Miw0MCwxLFtbMjUwNCw4LDEsW1sxNTQsMC4wNTEyMTc4ODQ1NTEyMTczNV0sWzE0NCwwLjczNTMxMDQ5ODQ2ODM5MzddLFsxNDIsMV1dLG51bGwsOCwxLDBdLFsyODYsNSwwXSxbMjg3LDUsMF0sWzI3OCwzLDFdLFsyNzksMywwXSxbMjgxLDUsMV0sWzE0NTEsNSwwXSxbNDYzMiwxMCwwXV0sWyIzIiwwLjZdXQ==

I gain a less than 1% increase in sustained DPS and lose almost 25% burst DPS.  This is absolutely a downgrade.

 

 

How did you do your test? Were you testing single target or AOE? The regular variant has more single target damage but the Kuva variant results in higher kill speed to groups of enemies. All you have to do is look up two posts to see the time-tests I did with the two weapons to see the significant difference between these weapons' kill times against groups of armored enemies.

Also, you would see increases to both of these weapons' sustain DPS if you add fire rate and reload speed. Your Riven is fairly generic and is essentially a wasted slot on the Kuva variant because the affected stats don't actually change the DPS much. More damage =/= higher sustain DPS. 

Also... a 25% loss in burst DPS seems completely inaccurate unless you're testing against a single enemy. Kuva variant has higher burst DPS over the regular variant unless you're targeting a single enemy (Grattler is not a single-target weapon so this is a very inaccurate way of testing/proving their viability. Grattler/Kuva Grattler are AOE weapons and need to be tested as AOE weapons). 

[MistressMoonpaw]

On 2021-07-19 at 10:32 PM, Leqesai said:

Well this is just wrong. 

How so if the normal grattler is superior?

[Leqesai]

24 minutes ago, MistressMoonpaw said:

How so if the normal grattler is superior?

I've made numerous posts regarding the efficacy of both weapons, in this thread. 

 

Just a few posts above this is test I ran with both weapons equipped with the same mods VS 20 level 150 heavy gunners. 

[Drasiel]

On 2021-07-18 at 1:27 AM, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

In the meantime the Mausolon which is a default weapon given for free with necramech still outshine all other prisma / kuva weapons (perhaps except if you manage to get a 60% ayanga kuva).

before the nerf the grattler was OK but wasn't OP, after it's back to the middle ground of MR fodders, but that requires 2h of farming and 5 formas.

P.S.: and remember that if the Mausolon would get nerfed, it would mean that Heavy guns would be lighter than pistols...

The mausolon should be out performing every other archgun except the cortege, kuva grattler, and morgha because the mausolon is the second highest MR required arch gun in the game. Necromechs are a pretty endgame system it makes sense they have an endgame gun.

[xarvh]

16 hours ago, Leqesai said:

I've made numerous posts regarding the efficacy of both weapons, in this thread. 

 

Just a few posts above this is test I ran with both weapons equipped with the same mods VS 20 level 150 heavy gunners. 

Indeed thank you for actually doing the tests.

My tests are also consistent with the Kuva variant being better than the regular one, especially considering that I have a miserable 29% on my weapon.

I am still really pissed about the nerf and I still think that given the massive investment it requires it could have done a bit better, but whatever, the ways of DE are misterious and frustrating.

[Leqesai]

4 hours ago, Drasiel said:

The mausolon should be out performing every other archgun except the cortege, kuva grattler, and morgha because the mausolon is the second highest MR required arch gun in the game. Necromechs are a pretty endgame system it makes sense they have an endgame gun.

While I agree with you I find it funny that weapons like Mausolon have a MR requirement at all, considering the only way to get them is to get the mech itself and as far as I am aware you can't avoid getting the gun. Same goes for Kuva weapons. They have MR requirements but they really don't... Know what I mean?

Mausolon should be better than it is IMO. It is a good step up over most arch weapons but the reload speed is just wildly terrible.

[Vahnstahd]

Don't waste your time getting the Kuva Grattler, get the other weapons.

[RagingGrizzly]

Ok? What makes you say that?

[Myscho]

But why ?

[LillyRaccune]

Right... Kuva Grattler totally sucks. It can't handle steel path content at all (sarcasm).

[Leqesai]

26 minutes ago, LillyRaccune said:

Right... Kuva Grattler totally sucks. It can't handle steel path content at all (sarcasm).

Truth. It is terrible and people should avoid it.

[(XBOX)LonelyRanker]

On 2021-07-30 at 12:17 PM, RagingGrizzly said:

Ok? What makes you say that?

i can probably answer for em

On 2021-07-30 at 12:18 PM, Myscho said:

But why ?

so from what i can tell, dont quote me on this but the weapon that comes with the necromechs, yea that weapon is about 5x better then any of the archwing guns, like the grattler has stats almost bordering the damage of it... except its mag is 10x smaller, and its dmg is less by about 10 or 20, and it shoots at 3/4ths the speed, basically, it cant compare, and its now the 2nd place archwing weapon, but the gap between it and first place is so far... its kinda useless by comparison, not positive if thats what they wanted to say but i mean, stat wise thats probably it like if you moved from using the mausolon to that, youd be insanely disappointed

[T-Shark69]

On 2021-07-30 at 7:19 PM, LillyRaccune said:

Right... Kuva Grattler totally sucks. It can't handle steel path content at all (sarcasm).

Yeah grind Cassini for hours and then fight the slog that are Kuva Liches now and then do it about 5 other times to max out a weapon that barely outperforms the base variant if you have a riven, just so it can perform worse than basically any AOE Primary. Mhmm GG de. Dmg nerf was uncessary.

[Leqesai]

On 2021-07-31 at 12:10 PM, (XBOX)sigilbreaker said:

i can probably answer for em

so from what i can tell, dont quote me on this but the weapon that comes with the necromechs, yea that weapon is about 5x better then any of the archwing guns, like the grattler has stats almost bordering the damage of it... except its mag is 10x smaller, and its dmg is less by about 10 or 20, and it shoots at 3/4ths the speed, basically, it cant compare, and its now the 2nd place archwing weapon, but the gap between it and first place is so far... its kinda useless by comparison, not positive if thats what they wanted to say but i mean, stat wise thats probably it like if you moved from using the mausolon to that, youd be insanely disappointed

Lol....

 

[Orakan]

On 2021-07-30 at 8:17 PM, RagingGrizzly said:

Ok? What makes you say that?

 

On 2021-07-30 at 8:18 PM, Myscho said:

But why ?

It only has 2 percent more crit chance compare to normal variant and half damage of the normal variant thanks to nerf that come one patch ago

[Orakan]

      As you can see in the screenshot Kuva Grattler has only 2 percent more crit chance and double magazine size but even reload time is worse than regular grattler and you can see the damage diffrence between them in the screen shot as well.

     Something like that happened in Kuva Ogriss to when it first came out, I think it has 4 percent more crit chance and way lower damage compare to original after a feedback shower on the forums luckily devs understood what is wrong with that weapon and change it to current state. So in grattler's stiuation even max elemental bonus is very un significant compare to this huge damage diffrence cause even max elemental bonus is not that much cause it is scaling from base damage and it is only 60 percent elemental damage, double magazine size doesn't cut the deal either cause it is only kinda faster than the original weapon (grattler has a wind up mechanic like soma so at the end they have both same fire rate) so as long as it doesn't has the fire rate of the regular imperator   this damage ratio won't work either.

     So what should we do to make this weapon be endurable to farm (cause if you are not lucky enough to get 59 percent elemental bonus on first try, you may try to get the weapon even 6-7 times at worst and one nemesis even in current state might take nearly one hour time )  Like in the example of the Kuva Ogriss give Kuva Grattler the same damage of the regular grattler or make the crit chance of the weapon 50 percent with at least 2.5 crit damage , cause these weapon should be the ultimate upgreads for regular variants and nearly all of them are fitting that purpose so no need to make same mistake on kuva ogriss on kuva grattler and make the weapon endurable to max out or even farm for players to decide spend their valuable times.

Have a nice day



 

[Andele3025]

Arsenal doesnt show the 60% extra base damage of the progenitor element. So no, at base 25% element its pretty much 1 mod slot saved version of the grattler with initially faster but over entire mag/for ground missions slightly slower fire rate. At 60% element its a flat out 23~31% better version depending on what you're doing.

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, Andele3025 said:

Arsenal doesnt show the 60% extra base damage of the progenitor element. So no, at base 25% element its pretty much 1 mod slot saved version of the grattler with initially faster but over entire mag/for ground missions slightly slower fire rate. At 60% element its a flat out 23~31% better version depending on what you're doing.

I'm not sure that's really a point in the Kuva weapon's favor. Especially when you have weapons like the Kuva Tonkor, that have the same base damage AND an elemental bonus. So the Kuva Kohm and the Kuva Grattler relying on the 60% bonus to offset their 50% penalty, when other Kuva weapons have no penalty, seems like a bad dichotomy to me. And definitely a bad dichotomy to OP

[Leqesai]

6 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I'm not sure that's really a point in the Kuva weapon's favor. Especially when you have weapons like the Kuva Tonkor, that have the same base damage AND an elemental bonus. So the Kuva Kohm and the Kuva Grattler relying on the 60% bonus to offset their 50% penalty, when other Kuva weapons have no penalty, seems like a bad dichotomy to me. And definitely a bad dichotomy to OP

Aresenal stats are not representative of how these weapons actually perform, however. I've done numerous tests with both Grattler and Kuva Grattler and Kuva Grattler comes out on top every time. In my tests I did clear times vs level 150 heavy gunners and with the same exact build Kuva Grattler had an average clear time of like 4-5 seconds faster than the regular Grattler. 

The mag increase and the no wind up time make a significant impact on DPS. It might not seem obvious at first but the 2x larger magazine and no spool up actually ends up with much higher sustain DPS. Reason being, with the regular Grattler you have to re-spool every time the mag empties. This essentially means you have 2x the regular cool up time by the time Kuva Grattler has gone through one magazine. 

The only area where Grattler comes out on top, compared to the Kuva Variant, is in single target damage. But this is hardly a single-target kind of weapon anyway so I personally find this irrelevant.

 

Having said that, I think everyone should skip the Kuva Grattler. It is worst gun in the game. So bad. Bad bad bad. 

[Orakan]

28 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Arsenal doesnt show the 60% extra base damage of the progenitor element. So no, at base 25% element its pretty much 1 mod slot saved version of the grattler with initially faster but over entire mag/for ground missions slightly slower fire rate. At 60% element its a flat out 23~31% better version depending on what you're doing.

Actually you can see the extra bonus elemental damage after you choose the weapon besides regular elemental modes give 120 percent on archguns so it doesn't even save you from one mod slot. Besides like I have shown in the kuva ogriss example nearly all of the nemesis weapons have better stats compare to regular ones.