It's time to nerf Wukong

[SneakyErvin]

23 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Bah, another long post eaten by a thread merge.

Anyway, listen to his exact words.  I think he does very strongly imply they'll keep that in mind going forward but they'll avoid altering that aspect of older weapons.  

That doesn't mean they won't tackle the problem in other ways though.  For example--and these are just hypotheticals--enforcing LoS requirements, steepening radial falloff, or nerfing radius mods would all be approaches that don't directly affect spammability.  They could also be looking at things like ammo economy.  That can have a direct impact on spam, but it can be compensated for with build choices, so it doesn't have to change the potential to spam.  It's then a question of more difficult decisions for players to make. 

Anyway, the biggest thing for me is that Pablo also said he didn't want to get into details about what they're doing with the AoE meta yet.  That strongly implies they are planning to do something, and it's not just going to be "Let's just not make the same mistakes with future AoE."

Yeah I really hope they do something to what we have, otherwise it will be rather pointless. I mean, in a case where they want big moments, adding LoS or ammo economy to the current weapons wont be enough, since the new weapons released will also require LoS, so the old weapons will still be the go to due to spammability. Mostly because they already hit an area large enough and hard enough, so getting a bigger hitter (which I assume he means with big moments) that may hit less frequently just has no point. It turns out kinda like Kuva Grattler versus Mechguns, K-Grattler already hits a big enough area hard enough at a sustained rate and works versus pinpoint encounter hitboxes aswell. Mechguns hit immensly harder with their charge up, but the damage is overkill, or limited in other ways that make them far inferior.

The best thing they can do with current AoE guns imo is give them all very long reload times ontop of LoS, far lower ammo pool and so on. It would actually let certain frames and builds be real enablers for using those weapons, much like how Revenant was a top pick for explosive usage before the self damage removal. And different frames would benefit those guns in different ways. Lavos and Protea would help with the lowered ammo pool, Garuda could be built to counter reload, so could Chroma and other frames that have normal improved reload speed options. Dispensery and Elemental Ward aswell as the ammo economy Helminth skill would start rivaling other options so people have to actually build more deeply.

[Tiltskillet]

4 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

I'm thinking I'll run:

Mirage with Kuva Bramma

Saryn with Toxic Lash

or Wisp

It's not going to change my usage of anything, but yeah, I think a lot of people will switch to these.  Wisp doesn't fill the same function as Wukong at all, but she's already so popular.  I can easily see her becoming the "two in every squad frame". 

It also depends on what they do with AoE.  Mirage won't be quite as appealing to ex-Wuks if Bramma, Zarr, etc., get hit hard.

I think we'll also see more Volts, Khoras, Mesas, Nezhas, Gausses, Xakus, Atlases, and Hildryns. (Not that I expect every one of these to ever become truly popular.) Maybe more Umbras if the Excal buffs make him a lot better.  But it'll be really interesting.  No frame exactly matches Wukong's package of accessibility, durability, speed, and semi-passive kill capability out of the box.

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

Sad to see monke go.

This is an especially big topic for me.

As I got him when I was briefly in a clan on my pc account.

He's so much early game power with low investment.  He made doing interception and mobile defense solo in the void possible for me. 

I'll officially farm and jump to wisp as my next best friend for difficult content. Hopefully Excal will get the come up he needs so I'm not forced to rely on her as much as Wukong until I acquire the meta mods on that account. 

[Drachnyn]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)Big Roy 324:

Sad to see monke go.

This is an especially big topic for me.

As I got him when I was briefly in a clan on my pc account.

He's so much early game power with low investment.  He made doing interception and mobile defense solo in the void possible for me. 

I'll officially farm and jump to wisp as my next best friend for difficult content. Hopefully Excal will get the come up he needs so I'm not forced to rely on her as much as Wukong until I acquire the meta mods on that account. 

I wouldnt be so quick to write him off. Wukong very well might be in a great place after changes.

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

1 minute ago, Drachnyn said:

I wouldnt be so quick to write him off. Wukong very well might be in a great place after changes.

I doubt it as they have stressed an interest in a significant nerf to even out his usage.

Or in other words "make him less desirable to play"

I just don't see how they do that without making celestial twin and cloud walker useless abilities.

If this was as easy as twin only uses the iron staff.  It would already be done. 

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

On 2022-08-07 at 10:52 AM, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Try to rethink your approach with Frost in SP. His survival stats can get really high, with mine sitting at 1k+ armor, 1.4k+ health and 1.8k+ shields, with the plus sign being dependent on slight tweaks in setup (and he's Umbral modded). Now, because this is SP, subsuming plays a big role and so I swapped his iceball with Parasitic Armor. This alone almost triples his armor contribution to its overall health but I also have arcane guardian for an added 900 armor to the bubble's health equation, since armor heavily influences the overall strength of the bubble.

Testing just a 100% strength cast of Parasitic Armor, my armor value increases from a base 1000 to 2800 (1800 shield convert +1000 base). With my 200% strength setup however, along with arcane guardian active, armor shoots up to 5500 (1000 base + 3600 shield convert + 900 from arcane). This doesn't include over shield values (not sure if those values are recognized by Para Armor), but my overshields can reach about 2680 shields. If those values work as well, then you're now playing with 7260 armor applied to every bubble casted while Para Armor is active, plus a Frost with higher armor than every frame in the game. The only extra work required is arcane activation and ability activation. The bubble maintains those values even after Parasitic expires so launch one and observe the difference.

Lastly, toss in adaptation to further fortify Frost himself and use the Vazarin focus school as a much more beneficial sub for rolling guard (saving a mod slot) and the only thing you'll have to worry about is that pesky damage reflect from a certain acolyte. Lol! Of course, my math could be wrong so test it out and see how it feels for you.

You have sent me down a rabbit hole using parasitic armor, Arcane guardian and tanker, and zenurik 20% strength, I have reached 96,602 bubble health. 

Parasitic armor op.

[Tiltskillet]

8 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

I wouldnt be so quick to write him off. Wukong very well might be in a great place after changes.

It's easy to see several things that could be nerfed, but also some aspects that could be improved about him.  If DE takes this kind of approach, I can imagine a scenario where Wukong is in a good place, much more engaging...and many, many players complain about him being made completely useless. :P

Some things Pablo said during the interview--not necessarily directly pertaining to Wukong--makes me think DE has this sort of strategy on their minds a lot.  I hope it plays out that way, and they make some good choices.

[otakuotaku]

Eh since I heard wukong is getting changed thought I'd just put this here for if they do more than just balance changes but rework him again.

Aesthetics. Nimbus should be thematically on wukong 24/7 but not just the normal depiction of it. Just like a mythical Qilin, wukong should be animated to Idle/Stand/Walk/Jump/Bullet Jump/Sprint/Roll/Slide/Wall Dash on clouds similar to Nezha’s Fire Walker visuals as an ephemera in a sense but specific to himself. His aim glide should look more like he’s standing/sitting on nimbus. Secondly there should be a glowing effect from wukong’s “eyes” to mimic “Fiery Eyes Golden Gaze”. Wukong’s “dodge” should always be a somersault animation.

Passive reworked, While Aim Gliding wukong stands/sits on his flying nimbus which increases gliding speed by 1000% and prevents vertical loss 5 seconds. No cooldown on nimbus, but has to land to refresh. During victorious enlightenment no longer has to land to refresh.

Celestial Twin Reworked, becomes “Lock Incantation”, Wukong sends out an electrifying energy wave which deals damage and stuns enemies for a duration. Additionally opens any container, lockers, and has a 50% chance to open locked containers, increased by ability strength. While using Primal Fury creates a strong wind knocking enemies up and slowing their fall similar to rhino stomp. During victorious enlightenment also creates a barrier around the edge.

Cloud Walker Reworked, becomes the shapeshifting ability “72 transformations” and on activation wukong becomes invincible, taunts enemies, storing damage taken to deal back once the duration ends. If wukong is not hit within the duration he and his clones transform into the most recent and closest enemy to wukong becoming friendly to that faction. Its break conditions works like ivara. Clones will line up in a formation during the transformation. While using primal fury the range of the taunt and damage return are increased. While transformed the duration of clones and victorious enlightenment are halted.

Exalted Weapon 4 becomes 3, Primal Fury, Additionally heavy attacks performs old iron jab and when wukong performs heavy attack against the ground it performs iron vault, simply launching him into the air. During victorious enlightenment the additional cold damage is doubled, his clones gain his staff without the damage reduction, and he becomes fully immune to electric, heat, and cold.

“Victorious Enlightenment”. Wukong depletes his current energy which equates to the duration of this form. He and his clones gain 3 times the energy depleted as Armor. On kill, his basic abilities cost no energy for 10 seconds, non-stacking. Wukong becomes Undying for 2 seconds on taking fatal damage, this can happen up to 5 instances for the duration. Additionally all thematic/aesthetic effects have their effect visuals increased and the effect where his “eyes” are would have a slightly extended golden trail effect from them. For every 30 energy depleted wukong will gain 1 second of duration, affected by efficiency to lessen the threshold and duration to increase the seconds gained.

Unaffected by efficiency or duration, if at least 150 energy is depleted wukong gains an additional 15 seconds duration.

During victorious enlightenment wukong is 50% resistant to electric, heat, and cold. His weapon attacks deal additional cold damage similar to saryn 3. When wukong cast abilities he gains a clone for 20 seconds with his current weapon but clone damage reduced by 75%, max of 4.

 

[Venus-Venera]

7 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

Sad to see monke go.

This is an especially big topic for me.

As I got him when I was briefly in a clan on my pc account.

He's so much early game power with low investment.  He made doing interception and mobile defense solo in the void possible for me. 

I'll officially farm and jump to wisp as my next best friend for difficult content. Hopefully Excal will get the come up he needs so I'm not forced to rely on her as much as Wukong until I acquire the meta mods on that account. 

khora is better for mob def on sp vs ranged. and interception should be easy with that. you can hold at least 3 points.

 

1 hour ago, otakuotaku said:

Eh since I heard wukong is getting changed thought I'd just put this here for if they do more than just balance changes but rework him again.

Passive reworked, While Aim Gliding wukong stands/sits on his flying nimbus which increases gliding speed by 1000% and prevents vertical loss 5 seconds. No cooldown on nimbus, but has to land to refresh. During victorious enlightenment no longer has to land to refresh.

Celestial Twin Reworked, becomes “Lock Incantation”, Wukong sends out an electrifying energy wave which deals damage and stuns enemies for a duration. Additionally opens any container, lockers, and has a 50% chance to open locked containers, increased by ability strength. While using Primal Fury creates a strong wind knocking enemies up and slowing their fall similar to rhino stomp. During victorious enlightenment also creates a barrier around the edge.

Cloud Walker Reworked, becomes the shapeshifting ability “72 transformations” and on activation wukong becomes invincible, taunts enemies, storing damage taken to deal back once the duration ends. If wukong is not hit within the duration he and his clones transform into the most recent and closest enemy to wukong becoming friendly to that faction. Its break conditions works like ivara. Clones will line up in a formation during the transformation. While using primal fury the range of the taunt and damage return are increased. While transformed the duration of clones and victorious enlightenment are halted.

 

 

no, no and no!
3 lives are extremely important. and the only meaning of wukong is to fly!
there are almost only pointless and useless warframes at the moment. I don't need another warframe with weird skills like inaros.

 

4 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

I just don't see how they do that without making celestial twin and cloud walker useless abilities.

Yes. that's what it's about. it's supposed to be an inaros, but with a lot less health. so absolute joke of the day.
because he has 3 skills that don't make any sense at all. if it can't fly, then it won't be played anymore. that's the point of all this nonsense!

 

11 hours ago, (PSN)Silver1593 said:

I dont really use wukong , for steel p chroma p and i am a inaros main . Inaros buff and skins when ? Only nerf but never buff

inaros is also extremely much better for sp. here you can install a lot more damage buffs and cat will heal him full non stop.
and even khora is more chilled in sp than wukong. because cc paralyzes important opponents and after armor ignore skill, everything can be shot down fast enough.

[AntifreezeUnder0]

Why not this be some sort of Wukong wannabe frame? Having this as new frame concept is a bit more interesting. And call him Nimbus. Celestial monkey.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

You have sent me down a rabbit hole using parasitic armor, Arcane guardian and tanker, and zenurik 20% strength, I have reached 96,602 bubble health. 

Parasitic armor op.

Lol, told ya!! It's what I over most about experimenting outside the box a bit. You should've seen my face when my Frost was taking hits unscathed. I thought I was in normal star chart but then realized I was in SP! 🤣

[(NSW)HedEmpTy]

Having had him for a few days now, what I'm seeing with Wukong as a solo-player is that Wukong, like most of the other frames I play, is a Panic Button frame. What I mean is, each of his abilities is a solution to an "Oh Crap!" situation that's common when you are playing without a squad backing you up.

Oh Crap! You're getting swarmed, you need to fight the enemies and Do The Objective at the same time, but can't be in two places at once! -> WuClone makes two of you, focus on The Objective while he fights off the hordes. (I don't use his "marked target" command, I do wish clone, and Umbra too, could be ordered to "wait", like specters and syndicate agents, more control over the clone's behavior would be nice.)

Oh Crap! You need to heal! / You need to get outta here! / "Something shiny on that high ledge, if only I could fly!" -> Cloud Walker makes you invincible and heals you, while doubling as a mobility option when parkour just... isn't quite enough to get there. (It doesn't necessarily need the stealth part of it, it does what it needs to as an escape button/movement option without being a spy tool)

Oh Crap! You need to sponge a bunch of damage but you can't run away! -> Defy makes you invulnerable, then counterattacks anything that's still too close to you, and then gives you a nice armor bonus.

Oh Crap! You can afford to get close, but you need to do heavy damage, fast! -> And this is what Iron Staff, and any exalted weapon, should be. Right now it's hitting fairly hard, sure, but it's a bit average. My experience with it is that the combo-enders specifically don't feel fluid, which in turn doesn't feel good to fight with.

[L3512]

44 minutes ago, (NSW)HedEmpTy said:

Having had him for a few days now, what I'm seeing with Wukong as a solo-player is that Wukong, like most of the other frames I play, is a Panic Button frame. What I mean is, each of his abilities is a solution to an "Oh Crap!" situation that's common when you are playing without a squad backing you up.

Oh Crap! You're getting swarmed, you need to fight the enemies and Do The Objective at the same time, but can't be in two places at once! -> WuClone makes two of you, focus on The Objective while he fights off the hordes. (I don't use his "marked target" command, I do wish clone, and Umbra too, could be ordered to "wait", like specters and syndicate agents, more control over the clone's behavior would be nice.)

Oh Crap! You need to heal! / You need to get outta here! / "Something shiny on that high ledge, if only I could fly!" -> Cloud Walker makes you invincible and heals you, while doubling as a mobility option when parkour just... isn't quite enough to get there. (It doesn't necessarily need the stealth part of it, it does what it needs to as an escape button/movement option without being a spy tool)

Oh Crap! You need to sponge a bunch of damage but you can't run away! -> Defy makes you invulnerable, then counterattacks anything that's still too close to you, and then gives you a nice armor bonus.

Oh Crap! You can afford to get close, but you need to do heavy damage, fast! -> And this is what Iron Staff, and any exalted weapon, should be. Right now it's hitting fairly hard, sure, but it's a bit average. My experience with it is that the combo-enders specifically don't feel fluid, which in turn doesn't feel good to fight with.

Helmith now exists to fill this perfectly with an ability of your choice.

FIFY.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb (NSW)HedEmpTy:

Having had him for a few days now, what I'm seeing with Wukong as a solo-player is that Wukong, like most of the other frames I play, is a Panic Button frame. What I mean is, each of his abilities is a solution to an "Oh Crap!" situation that's common when you are playing without a squad backing you up.

Oh Crap! You're getting swarmed, you need to fight the enemies and Do The Objective at the same time, but can't be in two places at once! -> WuClone makes two of you, focus on The Objective while he fights off the hordes. (I don't use his "marked target" command, I do wish clone, and Umbra too, could be ordered to "wait", like specters and syndicate agents, more control over the clone's behavior would be nice.)

Oh Crap! You need to heal! / You need to get outta here! / "Something shiny on that high ledge, if only I could fly!" -> Cloud Walker makes you invincible and heals you, while doubling as a mobility option when parkour just... isn't quite enough to get there. (It doesn't necessarily need the stealth part of it, it does what it needs to as an escape button/movement option without being a spy tool)

Oh Crap! You need to sponge a bunch of damage but you can't run away! -> Defy makes you invulnerable, then counterattacks anything that's still too close to you, and then gives you a nice armor bonus.

Oh Crap! You can afford to get close, but you need to do heavy damage, fast! -> And this is what Iron Staff, and any exalted weapon, should be. Right now it's hitting fairly hard, sure, but it's a bit average. My experience with it is that the combo-enders specifically don't feel fluid, which in turn doesn't feel good to fight with.

and unfortunately it's not a solution because other warframes do it much better.

1) clone does nothing most of the time!

2) this is the only useful skill and actually the reason why wukong is played at all. if you change that, warframe becomes pointless and useless!

3) defy might be a good skill with dmg reflect (because he doesn't need armor!). The problem is that a lot of range is needed here and I don't know how to mod here!

4) 4ths skill is absolutely pointless in my opinion and should be revised urgently.

[Doomyo89]

for all of my hearts i hope DE dosent undone Wukong Buff and make wukong totally unplayadle i have been maining wukong 3 years now, people who are complaining arent gonna play wukong so why DE would listen them? LEAVE WUKONG ALONE. 

[Kaggelos]

Intricate, concise, in-depth, well thought-out, professional, with proper formatting, and with no personal bias feedback.

Joking (but not inaccurate) commentary aside, the (usage) stats indicate otherwise. Wukong is an outlier, as it is a frame that encourages, among many things, AFKing, braindead spy vault bypassing, and AOE spam among others.

Personally, braindead gameplay should be utterly extinguished, whining and resulting consequences be damned. In other games, when difficulty presents its self, you just suck it up and deal with it.

Period.

[gamingchair1121]

you know it would be funny if they make him back to how he was before the rework. might actually get me to use him.

also if they don't nerf him enough people will still use him

[Kaggelos]

40 minutes ago, Kaggelos said:

Intricate, concise, in-depth, well thought-out, professional, with proper formatting, and with no personal bias feedback.

Joking (but not inaccurate) commentary aside, the (usage) stats indicate otherwise. Wukong is an outlier, as it is a frame that encourages, among many things, AFKing, braindead spy vault bypassing, and AOE spam among others.

Personally, braindead gameplay should be utterly extinguished, whining and resulting consequences be damned. In other games, when difficulty presents its self, you just suck it up and deal with it.

Period.

Not saying he should be nerfed to the ground, but at least remove the elements that make him an outlier. His 1 being a tap once and you're done, his 2 bypassing lasers etc. Also make his 4 fun again, cause it's animations are just clunky. It's stats are irrelevant to me personally.

[Yamazuki]

The reality of it is, even if DE alters him to a point the already useless Warframe becomes even more of that, most will just reinvest into another Warframe instead of quitting. It isn't any different to what happens with weapons that are either nerfed or just completely replaced by a superior version. Sometimes DE even nerfs a weapon only to later down the line release a 'new' weapon that's the same as the previously nerfed one but with better damage anyways.

Unfortunately with games, there is a severe conflict of interest when it comes to 'balance'.

[Silligoose]

On 2022-08-07 at 3:52 AM, Tyreaus said:

I, personally, wouldn't lose out. Largely because I use stupid OP weapons like Xata's Whisper Phenmor, which will treat Steel Path like Starchart anyway. But also because I don't find much entertainment in trying to find optimal solutions beyond a certain level of functionality (e.g. I tend to avoid AoE), and trying to stretch sub-optimal solutions isn't entertaining to me. I could take it or leave it.

But others do find entertainment in that sort of optimizing and stretching. It's considered a challenge by some to uncover what works and weed out that which doesn't. Of course, balancing late-game elements doesn't need to go so far as to wreck that entirely - I see it more as a continuum between the state we're at now and the extreme where everything works and we know it does from the get-go. But there is still that possibility of overshooting the goal, succeeding in garnishing better respect for investments, but wrecking the fun of discovery and pushing the envelope. That, I see, seems like cause for some caution.

Not to mention the extra wrench of the "endless endgame". All things considered, the performance of Warframes in Starchart is fine. There's discrepancies in performance but, by and large, you'll get your proverbial money's worth. Things break down in Steel Path. But to what level? 500? 1,000? As with the introduction of Steel Path itself, we continue meeting and exceeding the standard and make that the new standard. Gyre can't do Steel Path to level 200 so we fix her up to do well there, but then the next threshold is 1,000, so we buff her again, so on and so forth. It seems like the only endpoint to that process is either level cap, where the game can't actually allow us to push the bar higher, or the point where everything ends up on equal footing and we meet the extreme "everything works and there's no discovery or discrepancy".

With proper balance, those who find it entertaining to optimize and stretch, would find those forms of entertainment having more value above and beyond only really seeing overkill numbers - it would have actual, practical value in encouraged missions.

Honestly in the current state of the game, I believe things break down in SP within encouraged mission runtimes. That's why I'd love to see the play comparison done by Pablo when using Gyre vs using a more tanky frame in SP Zariman - just a nice little run through the various missions, starting with Exterminate. It would be nice to see how the frames stack up from his POV. Endless need only run up to Rot C, though Gyre may not make it.

You ask a very important question when it comes to a frame, its viability and to what level it should perform: Level 200? 500? 1000? Before we continue with answering this question, I should make clear that I agree with Pablo's goal of wanting different frames to feel different. He wants the experience to playing them to be unique, which is a commendable goal. As such, when looking to answer the question, it should be answered with the frame's kit being used and without reverting to overpowered global options such as shield gating or Protective Dash. The performance should also be considered with various weapons being used, not just top tier AoE that one-shots everything, since that is hardly a unique experience bound to a select few frames. So, with that in mind, how far should Gyre be able to go? The answer is: Somewhere close to the average within the spectrum of where most frames can get, because it is not so much about the number above the enemy's name, but about the comparative performance of frames when looking at their upper limits of performance. If DE wants her to be a higher tier frame, she should be able to get a little further than the average. If DE wants her to be a lower tier frame, somewhere a little lower within the spectrum, so if most frames can reach lvl 200 - 300 before having to use options with no limits, ie immortality loops, Gyre should be able to get somewhere in there as well. If most frames can get to around lvl 500 - 600, Gyre should be able to get there as well.

Why exclude global options such as immortality loops, or even Helminth? Because when one starts using those options, one isn't really playing the frame anymore - the frame loses its identity and goes from a unique frame and experience, to more of a shield gate/cc/damage vessel that ends up doing pretty much the same things in the same ways other vessels do.

One of the biggest issues DE has had over the years was being focussed on enemy level numbers and whether or not assets, be it gear or frames, can handle those levels, without really considering the asset's upper levels of performance and how much further the asset can push.

This tendency for DE to ignore upper levels of performance in various mechanics keeps shooting them in the foot time and time and time again, letting not only the players down by allowing imbalances to run rampant, but letting the game down by enabling meta's that far outperform other options, leading to a game so imbalanced that play becomes rather monotone, when it really shouldn't be:

• We saw it when they ignored the upper limits of performance of melee vs ranged 2 years ago, released SP (before the melee nerf rebalance and Galv Mods and Weapon Arcanes), and players found their choice to be either going for melee and destroying whatever was in the way, or going ranged and needing to use more skill and effort to still be able to do it, but to take longer.
• We saw it when DE ignored the upper levels of performance of radial AoE vs single target within the missions they encourage when buffing weapons (and even before that) with Galv mods and Weapons Arcanes and now we still sit with an AoE meta that far outperforms other options and lategame/endgame content that is pretty damn monotone, even though it really shouldn't be, given the potential depth of the game.
• We saw it when they ignored the upper levels of performance in terms of single target damage potential on the hardest hitting options and released Acolytes and latere SoP and now we sit with extreme damage attenuation nonsense formulas to nerf some overperforming weapon setups massively behind the scenes.
• We saw it when DE ignored the upper levels of performance of certain cc options, presented it as an option to any frame anyway via Helminth, and now they had to make most forms of cc unviable against Overguard.
• We saw it when DE ignored the upper limits of performance regarding armour scaling and the associated damage reduction scaling, and now we sit with a game where if something can kill SP Grineer, it can kill pretty much anything. In addition frames using shield builds with high shield stats (special exception for Hildryn) are vastly inferior to health/armour builds in terms of durability.

Gyre is simply the embodiment of the results that follow from DE's refusal to balance upper limits of performance, as her kit is based around underperforming and unneeded mechanics: Much of her EHP is shield-based. Shields suck at higher levels of play in terms of durability, unless one embraces low shields for invulnerability loops, so she is effectively made of paper unless one goes the effective immortality route and she becomes shield-gate bot instead of being Gyre. Unlike many other squishy frames, Gyre's only other innate form of survivability is cc. She has no puddle, or bubble, or form of shield, to mitigate damage. Her  kit doesn't allow for fast replenishment of shields either. She only has cc. Cc sucks against enemies with Overguard. As a result, Gyre's overall survivability is terrible compared to pretty much every other frame out there, because DE refuses to balance the more foundational mechanics of their game with regards to cc.

As stated, I agree with Pablo's sentiment, in that he wants different frames to play differently. That is a fantastic goal, but unfortunately for both DE and for players, the different options DE used to have to introduce new, interesting frames with unique playstyles that lean on different, somewhat competitive mechanics, aren't really options anymore. A more shield focussed frame that can't replenish all shields in an instant may have been a good concept and competitive choice in terms of upper limits of performance at one stage long before I started playing, but it isn't anymore. because the tool that is high shields for durability, is obsolete. A frame with a more cc-focussed form of survivability used to work, but it doesn't work anymore. A more damage-focussed frame used to have value, but it doesn't have that value anymore, because we don't need that extra damage in encouraged content. Gyre would've been a good addition to the roster a few years ago, or if DE bothered to maintain balance within different foundational mechanics, but they didn't, so she isn't.

Can DE fix it? Yes. They can go one of two routes:

1. Be lazy, give Gyre some form of survivability that other frames already have, making her less unique
2. Stop being lazy, balance the foundational mechanics properly and allow the upper limits of performance Gyre's current kit has, to be more in line with the upper limits of performance other frames have. This route would be more work, but it would also help bring balance not only for Gyre, but other frames, and the game overall, as well.

 

 

[killerKronos23]

This is the first I've heard of another wukong nerf. or its just the OP freaking out over the impending AOE nerf because wukong and AOE go hand in hand.

1 hour ago, Kaggelos said:

Wukong is an outlier, as it is a frame that encourages, among many things, AFKing, braindead spy vault bypassing, and AOE spam among others.

His 1 is the main issue I hear all the time, maybe give the "wuclone" the same thing Excalibur umbra does if you inactive, that would solve the AFK problem without a nerf.

Wukong's 2 honestly is fine, it's a good movement ability. Yes its a cheesy way to do vaults but it come at a price you have to land/hide in a place after coming out of the cloud. Finally I agree his 4 should be reverted to pre melee 2.0 or at least smooth out the animations.

AOE spam isn't going away anytime soon, as AOE has be come meta. the only reason I hear this is because of Players that have neon/white energy. Simply change the energy color to gray/black as that effects the explosion color

52 minutes ago, Kaggelos said:

Also make his 4 fun again, cause it's animations are just clunky.

I agree on this, his 4 was unjustly gutted when we got melee 2.0.

[Silligoose]

On 2022-08-08 at 12:46 AM, makaloff95 said:

My biggest worry is that they would overnerf things, besides, ST weapons being able to be used in SP isnt a bad thing is it? by nerfing other weapons aswell you will just make the amount of weapons avaible for SP smaller. However i do agree it would nice if we could see a proper damage output rather than having to theorycraft performance.

Allthought i know im the minority since i can easily sit and do 3h long SP missions (probably longer with proper set up), but in the end i dont find this to be a excuse to nerf non aoe weapons, beacuse all you will do is just making the meta picks stronger and a weapon type shouldnt have to suffer just beacuse a few selected weapons are over the top. Blanket nerfs are never a good idea, like how fun would it be to know that the Soma P you wanna use in SP will be useless for SP thanks to a blanket nerf?

So in short: go nerf aoe if you want but dont touch the rest of the weapons.

I'm not just suggesting nerfs, I'm suggesting rebalances, some give and take: The upper limits of performance of ST weapons are too high and needs to be rebalanced so DE can rid this game of that terrible damage attenuation band-aid, but along with that, the way players can get to those upper limits of performance would be less cumbersome and less stifling. At the same time, players would have more viable options available in dealing with armoured units.

No more having to get stacks via kills and continue using that weapon to get kills, lest you lose a lot of that damage and have to rebuild the stacks. No more extreme penalties in damage, because you decided to switch weapons to kill enemies in another way, or because you couldn't kill enough enemies in the right way to keep your stacks up. Those mechanics are pretty bad for the type of free flow gameplay Warframe can and should offer.

If, after the rebalances, DE takes notice of certain ST weapons, specifically some of the non-sniper semi-automatic weapons, underperforming, they can address that and they would have to address the overperformance of certain Incarnon skill trees, because the balance there is abysmal.

This coddling of players and wanting to allow them to make almost anything work in "hard mode" without much need for other tools, is not free and there is a trade-off, a price to be paid: To allow for this, it sacrifices depth for variety and devalues players' progression and improvement during their journey to lategame/endgame. It continues to devalue progression and improvement moving forward as well: "Oh, you farmed the newest lategame weapon? That's nice. It isn't going to really kill enemies any faster than that mid tier weapon you farmed years ago, because a one-shot is one-shot, but at least you see a higher overkill number!". Ridiculous.

This is a progression style game. When balanced, lower tier weapons are going to have lesser performance in higher tier missions and the beginner weapons are going to fall off - if they don't, higher tier weapons have little practical value, since a lot of their damage is either nerfed via damage attenuation, or lost to overkill.

[Merrcenary]

2 часа назад, Kaggelos сказал:

Personally, braindead gameplay should be utterly extinguished, whining and resulting consequences be damned. In other games, when difficulty presents its self, you just suck it up and deal with it.

that is why DE has dumbed down the game over and over again for the past 2 years. oh wait

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, killerKronos23 said:

This is the first I've heard of another wukong nerf.

There are some hints about what it might look like from the Pablo interview with Brozime last weekend.

[quxier]

1 minute ago, killerKronos23 said:

This is the first I've heard of another wukong nerf. or its just the OP freaking out over the impending AOE nerf because wukong and AOE go hand in hand.

The talk with Pablo & Brozine suggest some nerfs.

1 hour ago, Kaggelos said:

Personally, braindead gameplay should be utterly extinguished, whining and resulting consequences be damned. In other games, when difficulty presents its self, you just suck it up and deal with it.

Braindead gameplay comes with 2 ways:

- gear: frame, weapons etc

- levels: how long you need to play to get certain loot (e.g. 20 minute survi), bullet sponges etc

It's easy to destroy "afk gear". That doesn't help why we gravitate towards that kind of gear.

I would love to have more active gameplay but sadly this game gravitate towards low (or even cheating) grind/rng. I like my Disarming Xaku (1st & 2nd) but it's much less efficient and it is still nerfed.