Nerfing weapons and warframes is doing nothing but hurting the game.

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, Oggyswe said:

the problem is that you cant create content for a game that got over 1000s of uniqe items and then that content only uses a few.

Exactly. 

Anyone who has played a game like minecraft or skyrim when loaded up with content mods likely understands that there is a point where more content doesn't mean better. Warframe is certainly in this kind of situation for new players, I'd imagine. It is very overwhelming to consider viability of weapons/warframes etc. because there is so much there to choose from.

It isn't like World of Warcraft or something where you ditch old gear as you level up and ultimately at the max level there are only a few sets of items that represent the meta. Warframe's star chart is clearable with any weapon or warframe in the game. Steel Path has more restrictions but even then high level players can clear most of Steel Path without crazy meta weapons. 

I believe this is why Warframe devs keep layering on content island stuff and new gameplay mechanics (mechs, kdrive, archwing, railjack, operator etc.). 

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

16 hours ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

That is more or less what I'm getting at. DE nerfs things so people use a wider variety of weapons but in the end all they end up doing is making using a wider variety of weapons harder and almost pointless. 

 

Eh

gotta keep moving the goalposts

'New Content' weapons aren't going to sell too well if they have to compete with the stuff you already have; there's just too much stuff existing for anything to really be 'new'; only more power creeped.

 

Is this sustainable indefinitely? apparently DE thinks player rotation will be enough that no one notices.

[ShortCat]

15 hours ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

Nerfing is easier yes but if you want to make a game truly shine you don't take the easiest route, it's just lazy and on top of that it's a pve game that sends limitless hordes of enemies after you, nerfing is unnecessary.

Nerfing is necessary, even in a perfect ecosystem, because the goal is to bring outliers back in line; as such data points above the line get a nerf, while data points under the line get a buff.
Now to the "No nerfs in a PvE game" argument. This was never true. Not a single good and wildly acclaimed single player game grants you a Mighty Sword of Dragonslaying +5 as the very first drop and lets you steamroll whatever comes afterwards.

If you do not have a gamer identity and behave like a meta slave by using the same 3 weapons 95% of the palyerbase uses, don't get surprised when a nerfhammer drops.

Furthermore: 

[Silligoose]

21 hours ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

These nerfs are getting out of control and need to stop.

Here is why

When you put countless forma and anywhere from hours to even days making the best build only for DE to say screw you and nerf it into the ground it begins to feel futile and like a waste of your time.

Countless of my friends agree some are even quitting because the work they put into this game is just getting thrown away for no valid reason.

Before anyone tries to white knight for DE know this, the nerfs serve no real purpose as they don’t balance anything all it does and force you to throw weapons you really like aside and constantly redo the same mind numbing process over and over again.

If DE actually wanted to balance the game then they wouldn’t be doing something as lazy as nerfing our gear. The nerfs just make you feel like it’s not worth your time to make builds for weapons.

It is not easy to make these builds that can wipe out level thousands it takes a lot of time, forma, and creativity; and every time they nerf stuff it’s nothing more than a giant middle finger. I don’t even bother trying to make builds anymore because it’s just hopeless.

The balance in Warframe has gone off the rails over the years due to various mechanics in the game, to the point where end-game setups lead to enemies posing zero threat and standing zero chance in any mission, unless a long endurance run is made and even then there are tools to trivialize the content. When a game gets to the point where enemies on early missions in "normal mode" and end-game enemies on "hard mode", the latter supposedly being much stronger, are nearly indistinguishable, there's a problem that needs to be addressed.

The result from the power creep is a shallow end-game where the synergy, tactics and skills one acquired on the road to end-game aren't even needed. The difficulty curve rises through progression and then takes a nose dive, which is not what a well-balanced game's difficulty curve should look like. A good difficulty curve climbs over time/progression and then maintains it's position, more or less. In terms of skill vs difficulty in finite single player games, the curve will rise to a shallower extent and then most likely taper off as skill increases, while difficulty has reached it's maximum value. For a persistent online game where one would ideally want to maintain late-game player retention as high as possible, the difficulty will continue to rise. If it doesn't and it takes a nose-dive, it breeds lack of engagement, boredom and disinterest.

Paired with outliers in performance, it is clear why re-balances are needed, especially in persistent worlds. In terms of specific items, weapons, skills etc, re-balancing outliers that are either on the high-end or low-end of intended performance, grants more variety in viable playstyles attracting and retaining a greater demographic of players.

The way a company goes about it plays a massive role in how it is received: Generally, people don't like nerfs. They don't like seeing their high numbers suddenly become low numbers. Liches and Sisters are a perfect example of this: Seeing your weapon that you are used to doing 10k damage per hit suddenly doing only 100 damage is not as satisfying as seeing the 10k's pop up hit after hit, even if the time to kill is 10 seconds in both situations.

In terms of re-balancing in Warframe, the reception of Lich/Sister damage reduction mechanics is likely, in part, why they opted to buff guns closer to melee levels of power and nerfed melee slightly, as opposed to nerfing melee all the way down to where guns were (which, in terms of end-game balance, they should have done). It also gave DE the opportunity to introduce new content in the form of mods and weapon arcanes. Problem is, now the overall balance still needs to be addressed, because the difficulty curve still takes a nose-dive towards endgame.

A blanket re-balance is needed to get the difficulty curve back to a healthy level. It can done by buffing enemies' durability (either by introducing a new difficulty setting, or just re-balancing enemies in the current hard mode), or by nerfing damage output. The former would be better received than the latter, as the former maintains a the feeling of progression and provides new perceived content, while the latter is perceived as taking away progression, even though, in reality, it ends up being the same thing at the core: A nerf in terms of damage output against end-game.

Edit: it can also be done under a banner such as "Damage 3.0" to signify the evolution of the damage system, though I honestly don't feel an overhaul is required. 

tl;dr Nerfs play a vital role in maintaining balance in a game and serve many purposes in maintaining player interest, as well as variety.

[Oggyswe]

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

Exactly. 

Anyone who has played a game like minecraft or skyrim when loaded up with content mods likely understands that there is a point where more content doesn't mean better. Warframe is certainly in this kind of situation for new players, I'd imagine. It is very overwhelming to consider viability of weapons/warframes etc. because there is so much there to choose from.

It isn't like World of Warcraft or something where you ditch old gear as you level up and ultimately at the max level there are only a few sets of items that represent the meta. Warframe's star chart is clearable with any weapon or warframe in the game. Steel Path has more restrictions but even then high level players can clear most of Steel Path without crazy meta weapons. 

I believe this is why Warframe devs keep layering on content island stuff and new gameplay mechanics (mechs, kdrive, archwing, railjack, operator etc.). 

Yea because its easier to just add new stuff then balancing. 

Balancing anything asymmetric is a hell. And the volume of things in warframe would take forever to go through. 

[(XBOX)Harbinger XK5]

19 hours ago, Leqesai said:

What...

This is like saying the Fat Man in Fallout 3 is not overpowered because you don't have to use it. Some weapons are overpowered, simple as that. You can't claim that they're only overpowered when modded in specific ways... 

Also, in what world have any of the nerfs stopped you (or anyone else) from clearing all content with little to no struggle. Warframe is piss-easy at this point and as another user in this thread said, a complete rebalance is needed at this point. Players are so stupidly overpowered that missions are borderline boring. I haven't failed a mission (outside of rad-proc insta-lose) in a long time (maybe once this year and maybe twice last year...). 

Also, what nerf are you complaining about specifically? Melee nerf was absolutely trivial (melee still destroys all content). Nukor still obliterates in all content as well. Is there something else that got nerfed recently that has triggered you?

no weapon is capable of instantly wiping out level 1000+ enemies un-modded, I'm into endurance runs because it's the only thing in the game that i really find enjoyable at this point. i've made it to legendary 1 and have leveled up everything there is to level, done every quest, completed every node both steel path and normal, have every mod, etc. so the point is what left is there to do other than endurance runs. I personally just want to maintain the approach i enjoy which is turning the battlefield into a blender with my weapons. there's no end to the enemies meaning no shortage of things to kill.

[(XBOX)Harbinger XK5]

5 hours ago, ShortCat said:

21 hours ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

Nerfing is easier yes but if you want to make a game truly shine you don't take the easiest route, it's just lazy and on top of that it's a pve game that sends limitless hordes of enemies after you, nerfing is unnecessary.

Nerfing is necessary, even in a perfect ecosystem, because the goal is to bring outliers back in line; as such data points above the line get a nerf, while data points under the line get a buff.
Now to the "No nerfs in a PvE game" argument. This was never true. Not a single good and wildly acclaimed single player game grants you a Mighty Sword of Dragonslaying +5 as the very first drop and lets you steamroll whatever comes afterwards.

If you do not have a gamer identity and behave like a meta slave by using the same 3 weapons 95% of the palyerbase uses, don't get surprised when a nerfhammer drops.

You don't get the strongest weapons at the start and meta-slave seriously? i use weapons that i enjoy the feel of regardless of how powerful they are. For example: the infested claws, Keratinos i love those weapons but they barely can exceed level 100 enemies. maybe if DE let more than a few weapons take out level 1000+ enemies then people would expand what weapons they used. there are a lot of weapons i want to use but they just simply suck and can barely kill level 50 enemies. Nerfs are pointless they just further bridge the divide between what weapons people are going to use. i personally hate the meta crap, i'm simply tired of only a select few weapons being truly endgame capable and then getting nerfed forcing people to switch weapons. it's a videogame for crying out loud if people want to switch they will if not just leave them be for FFS.

[(XBOX)Harbinger XK5]

18 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

I'd say you can get to engaging content even with certain overpowered things, if one leans into that OPness as a matter of fact. Resting more on the 'glass cannon' concept, for example, by vastly lowering player and enemy durability and granting the player particular tools (e.g. invisibility and parkour) to avoid enemy fire outright. Think Hotline Miami as an example (albeit Warframeified).

FWIW, I think that's doable with a stricter form of Wisp-like invisibility (dispelled by any attacking), improved AI detection with terrain and walls and better limits (so they stop seeing us through physical objects fifty miles away), and probably a handful of other tweaks like to Decaying keys, rolling guard, Augur sets, and so on to ensure players are genuinely threatened when shot at.

Not to say that should be done. Just that it's possible to tweak different things to keep certain forms of OPness intact, depending what kind of caveats you'd find acceptable in your power fantasy.

The group of people i play this game with play it because it's fast paced yet at the same time relaxing and easy, if I wanted to feel threatened in a game I'd play dark souls or something like that. The thing that got me into this game was the fact that if I put work into my builds I could trivialize almost anything and feel godlike as the enemies stood no chance. I don't disagree with the addition of hard content just don't force people to change the way they want to play a videogame. I don't want to be stressed out when playing games, life is stressful enough as is. If they're so worried about steel path being so easy then why not just buff the enemies further.

[George_PPS]

On 2021-09-06 at 8:52 AM, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

These nerfs are getting out of control and need to stop.

Here is why

When you put countless forma and anywhere from hours to even days making the best build only for DE to say screw you and nerf it into the ground it begins to feel futile and like a waste of your time.

Countless of my friends agree some are even quitting because the work they put into this game is just getting thrown away for no valid reason.

Before anyone tries to white knight for DE know this, the nerfs serve no real purpose as they don’t balance anything all it does and force you to throw weapons you really like aside and constantly redo the same mind numbing process over and over again.

If DE actually wanted to balance the game then they wouldn’t be doing something as lazy as nerfing our gear. The nerfs just make you feel like it’s not worth your time to make builds for weapons.

It is not easy to make these builds that can wipe out level thousands it takes a lot of time, forma, and creativity; and every time they nerf stuff it’s nothing more than a giant middle finger. I don’t even bother trying to make builds anymore because it’s just hopeless.

The nerfing from 2017 to 2020 was even more crazy. Endless nerfs in each and EVERY update as if someone is leading the team to try to destroy this game during the period. Now there are less nerfs and a lot more buffs but many of these nerfs can still gradually ruin players builds and hours and hours of efforts/investment. We need to keep the voice heard constantly and keep all great builds the way they are! No more weapons/warframe/great mechanics breaking nerfs that should be replaced with buffs for weak ones! 

[ShortCat]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

If they're so worried about steel path being so easy then why not just buff the enemies further.

Steel Path already had buffed enemies, however casuals complained until it turned into a casual mode. You made a full circle by essentialy asking for steel path+. And you will be here again complaining that your weapons are not good enough for it, becasue you don't get it. I have nothing left to add to this conversation.

[quxier]

12 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

'New Content' weapons aren't going to sell too well if they have to compete with the stuff you already have; there's just too much stuff existing for anything to really be 'new'; only more power creeped.

There doesn't have to be power creep. They "just" need to introduce content that's different not copy-paste of other stuffs. I had my fun with disarming Xaku (pre nerf xaku that you could spam GoL) with Proboscis cernos. Weapon isn't, imho, strong but it worked well. Of course that's harder. They can even nerf it (look at Xaku, or Exodia contagion nerf).

On 2021-09-06 at 6:00 PM, (XBOX)Pugs9005 said:

i'm not going to "white knight" as you said above because i agree with your broader point, but this nerf changed BASICALLY nothing. let's be honest, are you doing significantly less, or even a noticeable amount less damage since the nerfs? nah, you can still kill anything in one hit with a slash proc. i would say compared to the insignificant melee nerfs, the ability to do something as ridiculous as give wisp 200% power strength shows progress in the right direction

There might be cases where you deal less damage but it shouldn't matter. I guess weapons with low status and without Weeping wounds may not work well with Condition overload.

However changing how you play a game is bad, imho. Nerf to Exodia contagion makes it worse to use (you cannot shoot 2 times, you have to go down). If they allowed it to use it after any 2/bullet jumps BUT nerfing damage after each use then it would be better.

[Tyreaus]

16 hours ago, Oggyswe said:

the problem is that you cant create content for a game that got over 1000s of uniqe items and then that content only uses a few.

I should clarify that the tools I was envisioning were universal, innate things, on the same level as the parkour system. Not that you'd have to use an invisible Warframe, like Loki, to even play content. Though, either way, yes, you'd still have to pull things in line in some way. That's part of the caveats.

_{What I wrote isn't important, it's just saying that you could have extreme damage outputs around a different system that could allow for engaging content.}

[Leqesai]

11 hours ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

no weapon is capable of instantly wiping out level 1000+ enemies un-modded, I'm into endurance runs because it's the only thing in the game that i really find enjoyable at this point. i've made it to legendary 1 and have leveled up everything there is to level, done every quest, completed every node both steel path and normal, have every mod, etc. so the point is what left is there to do other than endurance runs. I personally just want to maintain the approach i enjoy which is turning the battlefield into a blender with my weapons. there's no end to the enemies meaning no shortage of things to kill.

[TheGrimCorsair]

The game needs a substantial rebalance and that, by necessity, will include nerfs. End of.

[Nira]

As far as weapon feedback goes this is a new standard of low. Is there not a downvote option?

[Derethevil]

Took a break for like 7 months or so, just to come back and Melee being in complete pieces. 
Melee is doing okay but.. it is on life support now. One thing changed to make it weaker and you can only hope you soon can run around with your Necro.. wait no i am not going to say that or they nerf them too.

No seriously. I was there since the start with Warframe. Before DE became the funpolice i regreted not getting Excalibur Prime as i were still able to.
Now i realize my only mistake was that i spend so many years in Warframe, while DE sucks out every little bit of fun all the Effing time.  They give you a new toy and either it is awful or it really slaps. And if it does slap, DE SLAPS it out of your hands either a few days later or years later.

I tried to defend DE in most decisions, but by now i can only say DE became a self fulfilling prophecy. A meme itself. 
DE every time they nerf something: "Your free trial of fun has ended."

So i bite DE.
How much do i have to pay monthly that i get my fun back?

[Verreater]

God, I hate these kind of people.

Any slight nerf instantly "kills their fun".

Explosive weapons got falloff because they were way too strong? "Wahhh, my fun! PvE games don't need balance, everyone using the same weapon is okay!"

Melee weapons get a minor nerf? "But DE, my funnn! Melees are literally unplayable now!"

Riven disposition gets rightfully lowered? "WTF DE, my fun! Buff Bramma disposition back to 1 ASAP or I quit!"

Something gets a buff? Not a word from them. They are just going to ignore that guns were buffed massively, opening up many more possibilities for loadouts in high level content.

But they give an ability that deals millions of damage without falloff in a huge AoE a line of sight check? "MY FUNNNNNNN! I will now never mention a basic build that literally everyone already knows about in fear of it getting nerfed!"

Ugh.

[Derethevil]

God i hate these kind of people.

Any slight sign of criticism and they go: "Shut up about ma game!!"

People make valid points and they are like: "Don't act like you know what you're talking about! I play this game too and know more than you."

People trying to praise other things and they ignore it, because they are too focused on the negative things.

But trying to bring other stuff and weapons onto the same level with those "overpowered" things is too much effort to put in.

(See? I can do that too you traitor.)

[Verreater]

Crying about minor nerfs that are part of much needed game balance isn't "valid points".

 

Like, check what this thread is and what you wrote. Just general "oh stuff got nerfed, it is bad now, my fun is gone"

No concrete examples, just "nerf bad".

[(XBOX)Harbinger XK5]

4 hours ago, Verreater said:

Riven disposition gets rightfully lowered? "WTF DE, my fun! Buff Bramma disposition back to 1 ASAP or I quit!"

Maybe if rolling rivens weren't almost the equivalent of winning the lottery people wouldn't complain as much the point of this whole forma is not nerf bad as you say but to address the fact that DE are focusing their attention into the wrong the place. nerfing is one of the laziest forms of balancing out there. most things that do get buffed aren't even that significant. All they did to buff guns was add Band-Aid mods and arcane which I will agree are very powerful but they still require you to get a kill with said weapon. on top of that if you haven't noticed they didn't just screw with melee attack speed they lowered the base damage value of all melee weapons including the ones that could barely handle level 30 enemies.

As for rivens the whole system of them was a mistake, i mean if you can roll a riven mod 500 times and still the best roll you get has negative damage on it, then something is wrong. the RNG for riven mods is beyond bs and DE has said they have no intention on making it better. honestly from my point of view it looks like DE has stopped caring about their own game. 

Despite all the bad in this game I still love this game.

[Derethevil]

3 hours ago, Verreater said:

Crying about minor nerfs that are part of much needed game balance isn't "valid points".

 

Like, check what this thread is and what you wrote. Just general "oh stuff got nerfed, it is bad now, my fun is gone"

No concrete examples, just "nerf bad".

You need a concrete example to graps the very definition of bad?

Even as i know that this will go into one ear and out of the other on you, i will try it anyway.

What would you say is a better solution to this problem? Nerfing that one weapon or weapongroup that outperformed the others in like 2 years now or bring up the other weapons/weapongroups up to par with the one that is considered overpowered?
What seems more encouraging to your child in it's life?
Slapping that one favorite toy out of it's hand and demanding them to play with the others just for them to find a new favorite toy that you then can slap out of their hand too, or embracing your child, taking that toy, examine it closely and find out why your kid likes this toy so much and then try to make the others toys just as good or get something new that they will enjoy just as much?

Choose.

[Verreater]

And yet, all you did was write "nerfs bad" with more words without actually giving an example of why nerfs are bad or how nerfs drastically impacted your gameplay and stole your fun.

[Derethevil]

As expected. 
Goes in one ear, comes out the other.

[Verreater]

How often does it actually happen that your "favorite toy got slapped out of your hands"? 
I can think of stuff like Xoris statstick which just reduced build variety and was pretty broken op. But minor stuff like the recent melee nerf or the Bramma nerf? Are you kidding?

 

Buffing everything to be overpowered is a pretty idiotic solution that results in even more power creep -> boring game. How many people complain about stuff being too easy? Will turning everything into an instant AoE clear help?
Then also see it from the developer's point of view. Nerf 1 weapon or buff 457 weapons to catch up?

So instead of buffing guns to melee level they closed the gap by giving guns a slightly weaker buff and slightly nerfing melees as well. Now much more of your arsenal is viable -> more variety -> more fun for more people.

Buffs are important and nerfs are important. Because balance is important.
Sadly, the balance is terrible because 'casual power gamers' cry over any minor nerf as if their world has been ruined. The cancer of any community.

 

Come back with a valid argument.

[Derethevil]

2 minutes ago, Verreater said:

How often does it actually happen that your "favorite toy got slapped out of your hands"? 
I can think of stuff like Xoris statstick which just reduced build variety and was pretty broken op. But minor stuff like the recent melee nerf or the Bramma nerf? Are you kidding?

 

Buffing everything to be overpowered is a pretty idiotic solution that results in even more power creep -> boring game. How many people complain about S#&$ being too easy? Will turning everything into an instant AoE clear help?
Then also see it from the developer's point of view. Nerf 1 weapon or buff 457 weapons to catch up?

So instead of buffing guns to melee level they closed the gap by giving guns a slightly weaker buff and slightly nerfing melees as well. Now much more of your arsenal is viable -> more variety -> more fun for more people.

Buffs are important and nerfs are important. Because balance is important.
Sadly, the balance is terrible because 'casual power gamers' cry over any minor nerf as if their world has been ruined. The cancer of any community.

 

Come back with a valid argument.

No.