Looks like it's time to tone down slash and viral

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

1 hour ago, iPathos said:

No, I meant they hit armor scaling too hard with every tweak.
The latest one made higher level scaling a joke.

The latest one made it so that pure damage builds didn't immediately fall off at higher levels so you could go a much higher without 100% armor strip or True Damage.

A change that's mostly invalidated with Steel Path modifiers.

The issue is that changing armor scaling did not change the fact that armor is the only thing we care to mod against.

Also, the gentler scaling isn't in a vacuum.

4 x Corrosive Projection is no longer 100%.

Corrosive got capped at 80%, so it breaks even with a full strip at 4500 initial ferrite armor which level 74 Heavy Gunners sport and progressively gets worse as armor levels rise. Of course, this is not far from where the gentler scaling kicks in. Corrosive is basically dead against Alloy compared to Viral.

Slash lost 4xIPS priority, but Viral got buffed.  

Viral + Hunter Munitions/Stance Slash Proc builds got stronger.

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

It's not that time at all. 

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

Viral + slash proc' is a biased tool against biased eHP due to armor scaling.

 

Cap armor at lvl 50~60 values (keep sortie and steel path modifiers), then we could discuss about nerfing viral and slash. Like making viral half efficient than it actually is and slash dealing slash procs and not true damage, or slash true damage procs not being affected by viral, or whatever the nerf hammer will be.

But let's be honest, once you nerf what's meta, you just create another meta.

The question is whether the meta is somewhat intended (corrosive + fire are meant to be good against armors) or a side effect / semi glitch (viral buffing true damage from slash proc')

[iPathos]

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Armour scaling as a concept is a bad idea.

It basically makes everything that has it behave on functionally different rules to that which doesn't. For Corpus, your average 'heavy' unit (the Techs) are looking at 80,000 effective hit points at level 100-ish, which is less effective health than a Grineer Scorpion. Y'know, those weak 'light' melee enemies?

 

When you've got a game where the low-tier enemies of one faction are tougher than the heavies of another, and they're meant to be equivalent, then the game's fundamental maths is pretty sorely broken, somewhere.

The issue is that they're trying to give a general scaling algorithm to apply to all players. It doesn't properly apply to any one group and there's nobody happy with how it works as a result. Even with some kind of adaptive scaling towards the output of the squad in question it wouldn't be fully appropriate so I agree with your initial statement in part at least. I think there needs to be some kind of scaling towards it but nothing in the lines DE has given us in any iteration thus far.

[iPathos]

2 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

The latest one made it so that pure damage builds didn't immediately fall off at higher levels so you could go a much higher without 100% armor strip or True Damage.

A change that's mostly invalidated with Steel Path modifiers.

The issue is that changing armor scaling did not change the fact that armor is the only thing we care to mod against.

Also, the gentler scaling isn't in a vacuum.

4 x Corrosive Projection is no longer 100%.

Corrosive got capped at 80%, so it breaks even with a full strip at 4500 initial ferrite armor which level 74 Heavy Gunners sport and progressively gets worse as armor levels rise. Of course, this is not far from where the gentler scaling kicks in. Corrosive is basically dead against Alloy compared to Viral.

Slash lost 4xIPS priority, but Viral got buffed.  

Viral + Hunter Munitions/Stance Slash Proc builds got stronger.

 

The overall outcome is that lower levels suffer more than they should and anyone who goes above level 70-75 just sees lessening tankiness the longer they go. It leads back into what Loza03 said in that scaling isn't a good idea - while also highlighting the fact that DE does a horrible job of actually catering to difficulty preferences outside of literal vacuum situations.
Example: They tell us not to rely on the simulacrum while their changes seem like they only ever tested it there.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

Former veteran here who Isn't in the know. However warframe will never be a true challenge as is so why noy let people be OP and enjoy themselves. That is the kind of game warframe was even when I started and right up until ai quit after 3 years. The whole reason I quit was because of all the nerfs before liches abd railjack released that would make me have to reforma every... Single... Weapon in the game because DE just had to go and nerf so many things. I played for 3K hours and I didn't want to have to quit but DE is not good with nerfs or buffs, they should of just left the game as it was damage type and Melee weapon wise pre lich. Would of stopped the current downward spiral they are finding themselves in XD.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, iPathos said:

The issue is that they're trying to give a general scaling algorithm to apply to all players. It doesn't properly apply to any one group and there's nobody happy with how it works as a result. Even with some kind of adaptive scaling towards the output of the squad in question it wouldn't be fully appropriate so I agree with your initial statement in part at least. I think there needs to be some kind of scaling towards it but nothing in the lines DE has given us in any iteration thus far.

The problem is, quite simply, that there's two different scaling equations There's no way to make it properly apply to both groups, because the two factions are playing the game to different rules.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

51 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The problem is, quite simply, that there's two different scaling equations There's no way to make it properly apply to both groups, because the two factions are playing the game to different rules.

Warframe has more exceptions and technicalities than Yu-Gi-Oh.

Playing the game has been reduced to playing solitaire with yourself.

Warframe as it's now is just a busted interactive card game.

[--END--Rikutatis]

6 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

The latest one made it so that pure damage builds didn't immediately fall off at higher levels so you could go a much higher without 100% armor strip or True Damage.

A change that's mostly invalidated with Steel Path modifiers.

I'm sorry, I don't agree with that at all. At least not if we're just talking about baseline Steel Path levels, in that 100-150 lvl range. Please note I'm not arguing against the principle of your main points, it's plainly obvious viral+slash is the absolute most META thing there is to delete armored grineer/enemies, specially at higher levels. But it's a lot less mandatory than it was before, unless you're going into super high levels. It's just that people in WF like to go for the most extreme overkill they can get their hands on. Even if other stuff can still get the job done.

For people who did enough endurance runs before the damage reworks DE did, it's pretty obvious enemies are vastly weaker now than they were before, and you can get by killing baseline level grineer (100-130ish) with basically any element, as long as the base weapon is strong enough and you throw enough viral procs in there. I mean, I do realize there's been a lot of extra power creep in the past couple years as well, specially with the recent new galvanized mods and arcanes, but it still blows my mind to see you guys discuss armor everyday in these forums as if it was something impossible or insanely difficult to bypass without slash at level 100ish SP. That is not true at all. 

Just as an example, before the damage reworks, an Amprex modded for corrosive/hunter munitions would struggle mightily to deal with armored enemies past level 200-250ish to the point it became virtually impossible to proceed with it on an unbuffed solo survival for example. Nowadays post-rework and with the new power creep you can take a pure electricity  amprex, without hunter munitions (so no slash at all), throw in a vulpa panzer to spread  viral around the map and effortlessly melt level 130ish armored grineer in Selkie survival. Is it faster/better than viral/slash? No, of course not. But it's still fast enough to maintain air support through kills. I mean heck, the strongest most meta weapons people have been using nowadays will sometimes one shot those same level 100ish grineer just in the initial explosion, before hunter munitions even has a chance to proc bleed. 

In short, IMO Warframe's power creep has faaaaar surpassed the armor problem (again, in the initial baseline levels, not talking super long endurance runs). 

[ShortCat]

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

The problem is, quite simply, that there's two different scaling equations There's no way to make it properly apply to both groups, because the two factions are playing the game to different rules.

While you refer to armor scaling and how fundamentally different it is compared to shield scaling, there is still no problem.
There is no problem, because the tools you should use to fight armor work with armor scaling in mind. Viral+Slash does not care about armor scaling at all. On the other hand are Corrosive procs, which themselves don't scale linearely; unfortunately the cap is holding them back.

[Loza03]

16 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

While you refer to armor scaling and how fundamentally different it is compared to shield scaling, there is still no problem.
There is no problem, because the tools you should use to fight armor work with armor scaling in mind. Viral+Slash does not care about armor scaling at all. On the other hand are Corrosive procs, which themselves don't scale linearely; unfortunately the cap is holding them back.

The problem isn't 'boo hoo, armour is too hard to kill' here, because that's demonstrably not the case by any stretch of the imagination. The problem is that, because armour scaling is so much more dominant than health and shield scaling, everything is designed around being able to beat armour.

As you say, the tools you should use to fight armour work with armour scaling in mind. The problem lies in the fact that once you're done with that, the sheer level of increased power that armour provide dwarfs shield and health scaling unless you seriously inflate their numbers (such as seen on Steel Path Deadlock Corpus, who from my experience, sport shield that constantly regenerate on top of everything else). That means that either the other enemies don't matter, or you're dealing with the same nonsense that damage scaling without the proper tools is without the years of workarounds that have been put in place.

On top of that, the real benefit to having multiple damage types is lost - one of the boons of having a damage-type or RPG-style weapon system is that it's a natural way to make some weapons more or less effective in certain scenarios. To use Dungeons and Dragons as an example, a lot of the really hard-hitting spells deal fire damage, like the intentionally-overtuned Fireball. To compensate, fire damage is one of the most widely resisted damage types, especially from later-game threats. In Warframe, armour could have been a natural counterbalance to AoE weapons, it's huge damage resistance dulling their effects and allowing single-target weapons that could bypass it to be useful against armoured heavies. But since armour is so dominant, everything has to have access to armour-fighting tools, or it's not useful. So AoE's need to be just as good at fighting armour, and so they can dominate armoured heavies, and from there, devalue anything that isn't themselves further. That's by no means the only reason AoE is dominant, but it's certainly a one of them.

Like I said, it's a case of consistency - of things playing by the same rules. When everything's playing by the same rules, design becomes less of a 'players vs devs' arms race and opens up opportunities for more interesting content of all sorts. One of the simple truths of game design is that the actual numbers are arbitrary. Something having 100 hit points in a world where the average damage output is 100 hit points per attack is in many ways identical to if it had 1 hit point for 1 damage per attack, or 1,000 and 1,000 damage per attack. There's some differences to be sure, including psychologically speaking, but ultimately, what matters is how long something takes to kill under what circumstances. Warframe's problem is that the actual damage vs the hit points is completely out of control and out of proportion with everything. Somethings have 100 hit points, others have 10,000 except not really.

[Lutesque]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

 

On top of that, the real benefit to having multiple damage types is lost - one of the boons of having a damage-type or RPG-style weapon system is that it's a natural way to make some weapons more or less effective in certain scenarios.

I really don't like where this is going 😥

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

To use Dungeons and Dragons as an example, a lot of the really hard-hitting spells deal fire damage, like the intentionally-overtuned Fireball. To compensate, fire damage is one of the most widely resisted damage types, especially from later-game threats.

Maybe it's because I've never player a Table Top RPG Before but this seems especially pointless.... And alil insulting if I'm being honest.... 

 

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

34 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

I really don't like where this is going 😥

Maybe it's because I've never player a Table Top RPG Before but this seems especially pointless.... And alil insulting if I'm being honest.... 

 

How?

[Lutesque]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

How?

It's Difficult to Describe But IL give it my best shot....

My issue with the "Nature Enemies are Weak To Fire" type of design is with how Incredibly Abstract it is.... Naturally developers are aware of this so rather than trying make the interaction more "Meaningful"... They basically just make it significantly more obscure.... Warframe is a perfect example of this because this Abstraction has 2 Layers and is then Further exacerbated by having these different enemy types coexist with in the same mission... It's so bad they even created a dedicated Faction around this very idea... The Corrupted Faction of Enemies, which consist of Different Enemy Types from the other Factions.... Thankfully theres no Corrupted Sentients..... Yet... 😱...

I recently finally played the Version 1 Release of Hades and I am disappointed to see that they weren't able to Subvert this "Paint By Numbers" approach to Damage/Enemy Types.... Because it seems like they were going to do that in the Early Access version of the game... It was doing well too....  And then the game came out and they Chickened out and opted to use Multipliers instead 😞.... It's not as Bad as Warframe but I was very Disappointed.

 

[_junguler]

the viral and slash usage is because anything else is painfully slow and in-effective against steel path spong bobs, if you want to nerf them you need to nerf the enemies these are used to kill as well and basically end up at the same point you started and we all go back to use corrosive and heat again.

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

26 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

It's Difficult to Describe But IL give it my best shot....

My issue with the "Nature Enemies are Weak To Fire" type of design is with how Incredibly Abstract it is.... Naturally developers are aware of this so rather than trying make the interaction more "Meaningful"... They basically just make it significantly more obscure.... Warframe is a perfect example of this because this Abstraction has 2 Layers and is then Further exacerbated by having these different enemy types coexist with in the same mission... It's so bad they even created a dedicated Faction around this very idea... The Corrupted Faction of Enemies, which consist of Different Enemy Types from the other Factions.... Thankfully theres no Corrupted Sentients..... Yet... 😱...

I recently finally played the Version 1 Release of Hades and I am disappointed to see that they weren't able to Subvert this "Paint By Numbers" approach to Damage/Enemy Types.... Because it seems like they were going to do that in the Early Access version of the game... It was doing well too....  And then the game came out and they Chickened out and opted to use Multipliers instead 😞.... It's not as Bad as Warframe but I was very Disappointed.

 

Had trouble understanding that but ok I guess?

[Lutesque]

Just now, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Had trouble understanding that but ok I guess?

I guess you have to play Final Fantasy XIII to realise just how annoying it is because that is the where it is at its worst.... In other games it's only kind of bad but in JRPGs is VERY BAD 😱 !!!

 

[Loza03]

25 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

It's Difficult to Describe But IL give it my best shot....

My issue with the "Nature Enemies are Weak To Fire" type of design is with how Incredibly Abstract it is.... Naturally developers are aware of this so rather than trying make the interaction more "Meaningful"... They basically just make it significantly more obscure.... Warframe is a perfect example of this because this Abstraction has 2 Layers and is then Further exacerbated by having these different enemy types coexist with in the same mission... It's so bad they even created a dedicated Faction around this very idea... The Corrupted Faction of Enemies, which consist of Different Enemy Types from the other Factions.... Thankfully theres no Corrupted Sentients..... Yet... 😱...

I recently finally played the Version 1 Release of Hades and I am disappointed to see that they weren't able to Subvert this "Paint By Numbers" approach to Damage/Enemy Types.... Because it seems like they were going to do that in the Early Access version of the game... It was doing well too....  And then the game came out and they Chickened out and opted to use Multipliers instead 😞.... It's not as Bad as Warframe but I was very Disappointed.

 

Warframe already does this. Impact is good against shields, puncture is good against armour, slash is good against flesh. (except armour scaling is a broken system, so in reality, slash is good against everything, impact is useless, and puncture is 'eh')

The alternative is scrapping much of the game's existing RPG elements.

 

Besides, the general idea can apply to far more than the Pokemon type-matching rock-paper-scissors approach to matters. As I point out elsewhere, it can also be used in a more general sense to individuate enemies - heavy goons resistant to AoE vs mooks that resist single-target due to the principles of strength in numbers. Headshot multipliers, or lack thereof are another possible avenue. The terms in which I was speaking was 'tweaking the numbers can be used to alter how the weapon performs', creating a need for a multitude of weapons. Ultimately, whilst I respect that this kind of design restricts player expression to some degree, I would argue it also makes what expression that remains more important, as it makes room to specialise with the choices, as opposed to the rather linear power progression that Warframe encourages, where you either sit at the top, or choose to gimp yourself, because entire categories of weapons have no purpose outside of lower levels of play.

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

36 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

It's Difficult to Describe But IL give it my best shot....

My issue with the "Nature Enemies are Weak To Fire" type of design is with how Incredibly Abstract it is.... Naturally developers are aware of this so rather than trying make the interaction more "Meaningful"... They basically just make it significantly more obscure.... Warframe is a perfect example of this because this Abstraction has 2 Layers and is then Further exacerbated by having these different enemy types coexist with in the same mission... It's so bad they even created a dedicated Faction around this very idea... The Corrupted Faction of Enemies, which consist of Different Enemy Types from the other Factions.... Thankfully theres no Corrupted Sentients..... Yet... 😱...

I recently finally played the Version 1 Release of Hades and I am disappointed to see that they weren't able to Subvert this "Paint By Numbers" approach to Damage/Enemy Types.... Because it seems like they were going to do that in the Early Access version of the game... It was doing well too....  And then the game came out and they Chickened out and opted to use Multipliers instead 😞.... It's not as Bad as Warframe but I was very Disappointed.

 

Didn:t get the first paragraph.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

I guess you have to play Final Fantasy XIII to realise just how annoying it is because that is the where it is at its worst.... In other games it's only kind of bad but in JRPGs is VERY BAD 😱 !!!

 

I feel horribly stupid saying this but what is “very bad”? (I mean what’s the context,  not the definition). 

[TheArmchairThinker]

22 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Stop nerfing, more balancing

Nerfing is a part of balancing though, so nerfing something is needed eventually when something is too strong

22 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

I think viral is fine where it is, and I wreck grineer with it in SP, but get wrecked by them corpus

Corpus shield is pretty thick and viral doesn't help much, try using magnetic for 75% damage bonus on them and with enough status chance you will deplete the shield fast enough. Pair it with toxin or go YOLO with full toxin loadout to bypass their shield

20 hours ago, AEP8FlyBoy said:

Or just make Magnetic, Impact, Puncture, Gas and Blast Damage less of a meme.

Excuse me?

Magnetic is a shield eater which is useful for corpus
Impact unfortunately changed from staggering enemies to increasing health threshold for parazon finishers (if you like assassin's creed hidden blade action)
Puncture weakens enemies to make them deal less damage
Gas is good against a large group with high status chance where you can make them take multiple damage from gas instances per second. Pair it with electricity and you can lock an area down with constant damage
Blast makes enemies have less accuracy, reducing hits on you (from area knockdown)

So where's the part of them being a meme?

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

18 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Nerfing is a part of balancing though, so nerfing something is needed eventually when something is too strong

Corpus shield is pretty thick and viral doesn't help much, try using magnetic for 75% damage bonus on them and with enough status chance you will deplete the shield fast enough. Pair it with toxin or go YOLO with full toxin loadout to bypass their shield

Excuse me?

Magnetic is a shield eater which is useful for corpus
Impact unfortunately changed from staggering enemies to increasing health threshold for parazon finishers (if you like assassin's creed hidden blade action)
Puncture weakens enemies to make them deal less damage
Gas is good against a large group with high status chance where you can make them take multiple damage from gas instances per second. Pair it with electricity and you can lock an area down with constant damage
Blast makes enemies have less accuracy, reducing hits on you (from area knockdown)

So where's the part of them being a meme?

Still I’ve seen more nerfs than buffs. I think the standard should be the Ignis wraith or Kuva ogris. That should be a expectation. If you want mediocre/average guns the Grakata (primary) is the standard.

Thats why I use corrosive. When I use viral in SP I get 1 shot by corpus in the void.

 

I think what he’s saying is compared to viral, they’re less than average. Blast reduces enemy accuracy, not that useful of a affect (+ the backflip you do all the time is annoying) Puncture weakens enemies and (hence the name) punctures armour. If you have 50 enemies around you it won’t matter whether or not the damage is  1000 or 500. Gas is underrated, good for enemy swarms. (Very good)

Magnetic eats shields. Useful, if all enemies used shields (2/3 of the factions do not).

I don’t even understand impact. 
What does viral do? Increased damage against health. Do all enemies have health? Yes. Does viral trash grineer? Yes. Does it trash infested? Yes. Does it trash CORPUS? Not as much. But that’s 2/3 of the factions you can kill with ease, so viral is good compared to some other damage types. Corrosive shreds armour, and doesn’t have a reduced damage on shields so I use corrosive.

 

For corpus I also use a Kuva magnetic weapon. Also works.

[Lutesque]

22 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Warframe already does this.

I know... And that's why I hate it... 😞

22 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The alternative is scrapping much of the game's existing RPG elements.

Now that is something I would look forward to... 😁 !!!

23 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

As I point out elsewhere, it can also be used in a more general sense to individuate enemies - heavy goons resistant to AoE vs mooks that resist single-target due to the principles of strength in numbers.

Except it does the exact opposite of what you're describing.... Enemies don't feel more distinct infact by assigning Arbitrary Numerical Resistances and Weaknesses to each Enemy they actually feel more Homogenized than ever 😱 !!!

This is probably like the 20th Time I'm going to repeat this but what gave me hope in Hades (developed by Super Giant Games)... Was that there's only a single Damage Type and thus enemies have only a single type of Weakness.... That weakness being... Damage...

Makes all the enemies sound the same right ? 

Well not really because Although the game has one type of Damage... It has numerous types of "Damage Effects"....basically what this means is you get to choose How damage gets dealt to enemies.... There's Damage Over Time, Delayed Damage, Damaging AoE's, Chain Damage, Critical Damage and Environmental Damage.... All these Damage Effects affect almost every enemy the exact same way....

However... The true genius of this system is that although they are all technically equally effective... The Enemy behaviours might make you favour one Effect over all the others.... For Example one of the damage effects offered by Poseidon is called "Tempest".... And what it does is knock enemies backward whenever you hit them with it... It's really good against enemies that bum rush since you can Keep them away by knocking them backwards.... Infact you can knock them into the Environment, slamming them against walls or into Traps to deal extra Damage.... However this Effect is less useful against Skiddish Enemies that like to chuck things at you from far Away.... Since hitting them with Tempest just puts them into their Preferred Attacking Distance to throw things....

And just like that the game has created a Damage Type thats better against some enemies but not others without resorting to Abstraction the way literally every other RPG does (Fire damage is better against this enemy because I say so).... And that's just one of the Effects... There are like 5 Others and they are all just as interesting..... IN THEORY.... And that's where Hades falls apart because it doesn't Double Down on these Damage Effects.... For example you know that Tempest Effect I just mentioned Earlier.... It's less effective against all Bosses... Again... Not for any reason that makes sense... It just doesn't work on them because the game says so.... Rather than buffing the Knock Back effect on Bosses... All Super Giant did was Increase the Damage Multiplier on the Effect.... BOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!! 😠

My guess why They did this was because they knew that they were making a Roguelike and so they felt like they shouldn't double down on these Effects and so they doubled down on the Damage Multiplier instead.... Which Homogenized about 3 or 4 of the Types of Damage Effects in the game.... You literally don't even have to care about the difference between Frost/Passion/Deadly/Tempest anymore because all 4 of them have Damage Multipliers as their primary effect and their more Unique Effects are just their for Lore Purposes or whatever....gosh its So Frustrating !!! 😠

58 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Didn:t get the first paragraph.

Let me see if I can explain it in some other way....

In Far Cry... Fire is a Good Damage Type against Wild Animals.... Not because of the amount of Damage that Fire Deals but Fire Spreads if there's something Flammable nearby such as Tall Grass.... Which is where Wild Animals mostly hang out... you can deal damage to Wild Animals without having to do any precise aiming just by burning things in a clever way....

Fire is less effective against Humans because Humans hang out in Settlements and Bases made from Hard Stone that is clearly not Flammable.... however since these poor 2 Legged Creatures don't have the Graceful Ballet Skills of a Jaguar... That means they are Easier to Hit with Bullets....

Obviously I was exaggerating alil bit there but you get the idea...The Type Of Damage you use makes a difference that Actually makes sense rather merely stating that specific enemies are weak to Specific Damage Types like they would be in a game like Skyrim or Whatever...

They differences don't even need to make real world sense.... For example in Batman Arkham City... Armored enemies are weak to Electricity.... Zapping a normal enemy with an Electric Charge simply stuns them but Zapping an Armored Enemy sends them flying across the room for Some reason... It doesn't make sense but it's Distinct... And that distinction I think... Is what all Damage Types should Strive to be....

1 hour ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

I feel horribly stupid saying this but what is “very bad”? (I mean what’s the context,  not the definition). 

In this Context... It's very bad because you have to use Different Damage Types against Different Enemies without a proper explanation other than "It deals the most Damage"... 

Its called "Paint By Numbers" because there's actually a type of Children's Colouring Book where the Pictures will have Numbers inside different parts of the picture.... Thus you can colour in the entire picture just by assigning a Colour to each NUMber...which is a nice tool for helping Kids with Consistency.... But its definitely no way to design a Video game especially in these Modern Times....

 

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

28 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

I know... And that's why I hate it... 😞

Now that is something I would look forward to... 😁 !!!

Except it does the exact opposite of what you're describing.... Enemies don't feel more distinct infact by assigning Arbitrary Numerical Resistances and Weaknesses to each Enemy they actually feel more Homogenized than ever 😱 !!!

This is probably like the 20th Time I'm going to repeat this but what gave me hope in Hades (developed by Super Giant Games)... Was that there's only a single Damage Type and thus enemies have only a single type of Weakness.... That weakness being... Damage...

Makes all the enemies sound the same right ? 

Well not really because Although the game has one type of Damage... It has numerous types of "Damage Effects"....basically what this means is you get to choose How damage gets dealt to enemies.... There's Damage Over Time, Delayed Damage, Damaging AoE's, Chain Damage, Critical Damage and Environmental Damage.... All these Damage Effects affect almost every enemy the exact same way....

However... The true genius of this system is that although they are all technically equally effective... The Enemy behaviours might make you favour one Effect over all the others.... For Example one of the damage effects offered by Poseidon is called "Tempest".... And what it does is knock enemies backward whenever you hit them with it... It's really good against enemies that bum rush since you can Keep them away by knocking them backwards.... Infact you can knock them into the Environment, slamming them against walls or into Traps to deal extra Damage.... However this Effect is less useful against Skiddish Enemies that like to chuck things at you from far Away.... Since hitting them with Tempest just puts them into their Preferred Attacking Distance to throw things....

And just like that the game has created a Damage Type thats better against some enemies but not others without resorting to Abstraction the way literally every other RPG does (Fire damage is better against this enemy because I say so).... And that's just one of the Effects... There are like 5 Others and they are all just as interesting..... IN THEORY.... And that's where Hades falls apart because it doesn't Double Down on these Damage Effects.... For example you know that Tempest Effect I just mentioned Earlier.... It's less effective against all Bosses... Again... Not for any reason that makes sense... It just doesn't work on them because the game says so.... Rather than buffing the Knock Back effect on Bosses... All Super Giant did was Increase the Damage Multiplier on the Effect.... BOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!! 😠

My guess why They did this was because they knew that they were making a Roguelike and so they felt like they shouldn't double down on these Effects and so they doubled down on the Damage Multiplier instead.... Which Homogenized about 3 or 4 of the Types of Damage Effects in the game.... You literally don't even have to care about the difference between Frost/Passion/Deadly/Tempest anymore because all 4 of them have Damage Multipliers as their primary effect and their more Unique Effects are just their for Lore Purposes or whatever....gosh its So Frustrating !!! 😠

Let me see if I can explain it in some other way....

In Far Cry... Fire is a Good Damage Type against Wild Animals.... Not because of the amount of Damage that Fire Deals but Fire Spreads if there's something Flammable nearby such as Tall Grass.... Which is where Wild Animals mostly hang out... you can deal damage to Wild Animals without having to do any precise aiming just by burning things in a clever way....

Fire is less effective against Humans because Humans hang out in Settlements and Bases made from Hard Stone that is clearly not Flammable.... however since these poor 2 Legged Creatures don't have the Graceful Ballet Skills of a Jaguar... That means they are Easier to Hit with Bullets....

Obviously I was exaggerating alil bit there but you get the idea...The Type Of Damage you use makes a difference that Actually makes sense rather merely stating that specific enemies are weak to Specific Damage Types like they would be in a game like Skyrim or Whatever...

They differences don't even need to make real world sense.... For example in Batman Arkham City... Armored enemies are weak to Electricity.... Zapping a normal enemy with an Electric Charge simply stuns them but Zapping an Armored Enemy sends them flying across the room for Some reason... It doesn't make sense but it's Distinct... And that distinction I think... Is what all Damage Types should Strive to be....

In this Context... It's very bad because you have to use Different Damage Types against Different Enemies without a proper explanation other than "It deals the most Damage"... 

Its called "Paint By Numbers" because there's actually a type of Children's Colouring Book where the Pictures will have Numbers inside different parts of the picture.... Thus you can colour in the entire picture just by assigning a Colour to each NUMber...which is a nice tool for helping Kids with Consistency.... But its definitely no way to design a Video game especially in these Modern Times....

 

So your saying that giving every enemy a unique damage weakness is a bad thing correct?

Well, first of all, yes. It makes things complicated and don’t really like it.

second of all, this is why I use corrosive or viral. Viral easily shreds the 2/3 factions, but really bad at shredding shields. Corrosive however, shreds armour well and I’ve found it better as a “all 3” damage type than viral since I find it quite balanced and good against all 3 factions. (Also it’s the best for corrupted). Corrupted however, is a problem, because it combines all 3 factions, enhances their damage and armour until it’s just broken so like you said, it’s bad.

third of all… which Skyrim do you play? (Played far cry and Arkham city too until I stopped because the car got bugged)

[TheArmchairThinker]

14 hours ago, (XBOX)Zweimander said:

Former veteran here who Isn't in the know. However warframe will never be a true challenge as is so why noy let people be OP and enjoy themselves. That is the kind of game warframe was even when I started and right up until ai quit after 3 years. The whole reason I quit was because of all the nerfs before liches abd railjack released that would make me have to reforma every... Single... Weapon in the game because DE just had to go and nerf so many things. I played for 3K hours and I didn't want to have to quit but DE is not good with nerfs or buffs, they should of just left the game as it was damage type and Melee weapon wise pre lich. Would of stopped the current downward spiral they are finding themselves in XD.

Blame those people who want balance, difficulty and challenge

[TheArmchairThinker]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Corrosive shreds armour, and doesn’t have a reduced damage on shields so I use corrosive.

Until you meet proto shields used on several corpus units with -75% damage penalty on it