Do you genuinely believe tutorials would in fact help?

[Galuf]

IG tutorials suck nowadays. Most players, especially the one that are likely to pay online, are following YT influencers. When warframe was released, tutorials would have helped maybe, nowaday gaming is more about mimetism and you don't have to understand anything to mimic something. How long can you make players mimic influencers you pay for your game. Also Wiki has always been well updated for this game and generally speaking wikis are way better than any in game tutorials. Somebody not able to search and find infos on a wiki would still be lost with in game help text, UI wise the game is pretty good, it is a strong feature of warframe imho.

[KIREEK]

44 minutes ago, Galuf said:

IG tutorials suck nowadays. Most players, especially the one that are likely to pay online, are following YT influencers. 

To bad some youtubers or partners are bad influencers, i trully pity a couple of them and i find quite sad users that follow them.

In some cases it works, but in others....ai ai ai.

[Galuf]

Il y a 7 heures, KIREEK a dit :

To bad some youtubers or partners are bad influencers, i trully pity a couple of them and i find quite sad users that follow them.

In some cases it works, but in others....ai ai ai.

Influencers are only as good as the game they create content for. But imho only Mr Warframe guys puts meaningfull content, and the guy is just trying to meme.

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

8 hours ago, KIREEK said:

To bad some youtubers or partners are bad influencers, i trully pity a couple of them and i find quite sad users that follow them.

In some cases it works, but in others....ai ai ai.

 

50 minutes ago, Galuf said:

Influencers are only as good as the game they create content for. But imho only Mr Warframe guys puts meaningfull content, and the guy is just trying to meme.

Supports not adding tutorials and rather having players go to third party sources.

Proceeds to get angry at the third party sources.

[xombob89]

The in-game tutorials usually dont include very detailed info even when they are "good", which is why I like to use the Wikis. I like to know what it takes to reach 100% on each ability before I make any mistakes with forma polarities. 

That reminds me, wish they added forma with multiple polarities already... 

[Softballbryan]

On 2021-10-02 at 12:56 PM, SneakyErvin said:

I'd say no, because when there are better tutorials people will complain about something else regarding the tutorial, like how it is easy to skip through without learning anything or something equally stupid. And it isnt like such things are uncommon in games. Take a game like Outriders for example, it had one of the most well made information handbooks in a game within the game itself, you could practically find anything in there. The things it didnt show and tell were how mechanics worked on the back end, something players very rarely if ever get information about. So what happened? People started to complain about these hidden mechanical interactions instead of doing what people do in other games, figure them out.

And in many other games it is common that people ignore the info at hand and instead just ask in a chat, which results in mostly wasted development time to do the really crystal clear tutorials or handbooks in the first place. I blame it on the rush mentality of todays gamers, which is a plague that has spread alot through streamers just so they can have "viable" content to show and not fall behind other streamers in grind games. #*!%ing "keeping up with the Joneses" mindset if you ask me.

 

I agree. Add to the fact that Warframe needs to add content and must put resources in that task or else. In the Warframe documentary, Steve indicates some players just aren’t going to invest the time to play Warframe. This game demands that you look things up for yourselves and stick to it for some time. There are many people playing games that will not be interested in doing that. 
 

I fish a lot in real life, and I get the same type of situations from some anglers. They just want to know where the fish are and what to use. They want results quickly….

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Softballbryan said:

I agree. Add to the fact that Warframe needs to add content and must put resources in that task or else. In the Warframe documentary, Steve indicates some players just aren’t going to invest the time to play Warframe. This game demands that you look things up for yourselves and stick to it for some time. There are many people playing games that will not be interested in doing that. 
 

I fish a lot in real life, and I get the same type of situations from some anglers. They just want to know where the fish are and what to use. They want results quickly….

I think many people fool themselves if they think a tutorial will bring much more players. The tutorial of a game tends to be the least deciding factor for me when I start soemthing out. If the game doesnt feel right or please me I wont stick with it. If the game fullfil those two things I wont need a tutorial at all since I'll likely enjoy my learning experience due to fun gameplay and settings. I for instance wont play Diablo 2 R at the moment, but the lack of tutorials and having intricate systems isnt the reason for that. I simply dont wanna play it due to outdated and poorly aged controls. If they add quick casting to kb/m in the game I will likely pick it up, but atm without that along with horrible inventory and excessive pot usage there are too many un-fun downsides to it.

[ZeroX4]

5 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I think many people fool themselves if they think a tutorial will bring much more players.

Its not about bringing more players to the game but not making new ones leave (but maybe one does not exclude other?)

Like in OP i left not because game didnt feel right but because i didnt have enough information to continue
My cousin give me information i needed after a year or 2 when i came back to the game
Which information could be provided to me even in a single screen of a text and present me with reward if i fully upgrade any mod to max rank

So you are 100% wrong with your statement

[Zimzala]

23 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

So you are 100% wrong with your statement

Your personal anecdotal evidence does not define the marketplace, pot-kettle.

[ZeroX4]

19 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Your personal anecdotal evidence does not define the marketplace, pot-kettle.

Yeah maybe or does it?

I can 100% agree on fact that if someone is going to leave then he will leave no matter what kind of tutorial or help he is going to get
Also my example proves i didnt leave because warframe was not for me i left because warframe lacked information that would allow me to progress

So if we talking here about pure argument lets consider only i alone in whole history of warframe left game in 1st few days cause of lack if help
Which could be prevented just by providing me not with guide not with tutorial but simply with 1 screen of text explaining how modding works and where to get resources to upgrade mods
Thats +1 player kept in game and that means warframe didnt lose a player cause of lack of information

So yeah that kind of help wont make warframe gain more players but will prevent ppl WHO WOULD leave for exact same reason for which i did from leaving

[General-Pacman]

33 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

So yeah that kind of help wont make warframe gain more players but will prevent ppl WHO WOULD leave for exact same reason for which i did from leaving

If at that point a player liked the game enough to want to invest more time on it, the lack of tutorials won't stop them; they will take the time to research on their own.

It's obviously not the same for everyone, but I feel like people who leave at the beginning due to the game being confusing would still quit even if we had a metric ton of early game tutorials. IMO the issue is not the lack of information, it's the amount of systems you need to learn, which can be overwhelming. The thing is, Warframe is a complex game, and most gamers nowadays don't enjoy complex games. They want a faster, more streamlined game experience, and no tutorial will change that.

[ZeroX4]

2 minutes ago, General-Pacman said:

If at that point a player liked the game enough to want to invest more time on it, the lack of tutorials won't stop them; they will take the time to research on their own.

It's obviously not the same for everyone, but I feel like people who leave at the beginning due to the game being confusing would still quit even if we had a metric ton of early game tutorials. IMO the issue is not the lack of information, it's the amount of systems you need to learn, which can be overwhelming. The thing is, Warframe is a complex game, and most gamers nowadays don't enjoy complex games. They want a faster, more streamlined game experience, and no tutorial will change that.

WtF?
 

Complex game?
IF i seen a big text while modding for 1st time like
1 - you need to slot in mods to make weapons and warframes stronger
2 - mods gain stats by being upgraded with endo (here small little picture how rank0 and rank 10 vitality affect 200 HP)
3 - you get endo from dismantling mods (which can be dismantled into credits but at beginning its better to dismantle them into endo)
4 - use search field while upgrading warframe or a weapon to find mods by their stats (e.q search word "armor")
5 - use forma to add remove or change polarity on mod slot (forma can be obtained from market or its BP from fissures)
6 - as you upgrade your arsenal keep unlocking new nodes (ones that flashes in blue) on star chart and unveil secrets of origin system

And that 6 points alone would be enough for me to stay maybe not for everyone but i bet for many ppl it would prevent them from quitting warframe in first few days

[mrEkli]

"Influencers" and "Content Creators" do not create game content. They create content about the game. If we're really forced to be patrons of some random people making videos of other media, what a horrible game landscape we have today.

 

That said, there's already way too much (official) content that isn't in the game that should be. All Prime Trailers and other materials that have game lore content should be linked within the game. 

[Lutesque]

4 hours ago, Softballbryan said:

 

I fish a lot in real life, and I get the same type of situations from some anglers. They just want to know where the fish are and what to use. They want results quickly….

And you don't ? 🤨

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I think many people fool themselves if they think a tutorial will bring much more players.

I agree... But my interest in better tutorials is not to increase the number of players... It's too increase the quality of playing.

 

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, ZeroX4 said:

Its not about bringing more players to the game but not making new ones leave (but maybe one does not exclude other?)

Like in OP i left not because game didnt feel right but because i didnt have enough information to continue
My cousin give me information i needed after a year or 2 when i came back to the game
Which information could be provided to me even in a single screen of a text and present me with reward if i fully upgrade any mod to max rank

So you are 100% wrong with your statement

Am I though? Both your opinion and mine are based on anecdotal evidence/experience, so saying one is 100% wrong isnt valid. I'm sure some people would stay with a better tutorial, what I'm saying is that it wouldnt result in a big influx of players as some people may think. And if people left because a system lacked a tutorial, it wont result in them coming back because they added one. I dont think many people keep up with games they leave that early on for such reasons.

I also looked at your 6 points in the post above. What exactly of those things arent pretty self explained if you take maybe 5 minutes to look through the mods and mod screen? And how is a flashing node not obvious enough to begin with on the star chart. It is a "Hey dude! I flash cos you havent been here!" thing, the only thing that could make it clearer is a hand reaching out of your screen and slapping you.

[ZeroX4]

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Am I though? Both your opinion and mine are based on anecdotal evidence/experience, so saying one is 100% wrong isnt valid. I'm sure some people would stay with a better tutorial, what I'm saying is that it wouldnt result in a big influx of players as some people may think. And if people left because a system lacked a tutorial, it wont result in them coming back because they added one. I dont think many people keep up with games they leave that early on for such reasons.

I also looked at your 6 points in the post above. What exactly of those things arent pretty self explained if you take maybe 5 minutes to look through the mods and mod screen? And how is a flashing node not obvious enough to begin with on the star chart. It is a "Hey dude! I flash cos you havent been here!" thing, the only thing that could make it clearer is a hand reaching out of your screen and slapping you.

Sorry Sneaky to break it to you but i am not as smart as you and so does many other ppl
Its not being sarcastic but i am dumb as F*** and some stuff that is obvious to you is cryptic to me

Care for few examples?
I learned at mr 25 (at least on my own) that in most cases 1st letter of relic name is corresponding to 1st letter of prime part it offers as rarest one for example NEO P2 = Pyrana Prime (i made it up but you get the idea)
At MR 16 i learned that with limbos cataclysm and hydroids tentacles where they spawn is not where you stand but where you point your corshair
At MR 14 i learned that i can rez other players with operator while in void mode to avoid death and before that i was running with sanctuary mod on all my sentinels
I started this game with excalibur (with exalted blade build) and it was my main until umbra and then until wukong rework
Yet i learned at MR 30 (i just want to point out i was running with excalibur al lthe time till MR idk 27 or so) i learned that if i crouch while exalted blade is active excalibur turned into become stationary instead of moving forward with each slice
At MR 24 i know already for very long about umbra becoming specter when you go out as operator and i was even using/abusing it all the time but at that MR 24 i learned FROM ANOTHER PLAYER that if i take half decent sniper rifle go to index and run as operator umbra will aimbot hell out of corpus

I can go on and on with examples they are not important but thing is some of the stuff i could figure out own my own yet i did not
Maybe you did? Who cares since problem is that some players dont and that is the issue here

Providing players with minimum explanation and not leaving them to figure crap on their own which in some cases makes them quit
 

So my list for you is pointless for me it would be sole reason i would not quit after few days and maybe it would prevent others from doing exact same thing

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

9 hours ago, ZeroX4 said:

Sorry Sneaky to break it to you but i am not as smart as you and so does many other ppl
Its not being sarcastic but i am dumb as F*** and some stuff that is obvious to you is cryptic to me

Care for few examples?
I learned at mr 25 (at least on my own) that in most cases 1st letter of relic name is corresponding to 1st letter of prime part it offers as rarest one for example NEO P2 = Pyrana Prime (i made it up but you get the idea)
At MR 16 i learned that with limbos cataclysm and hydroids tentacles where they spawn is not where you stand but where you point your corshair
At MR 14 i learned that i can rez other players with operator while in void mode to avoid death and before that i was running with sanctuary mod on all my sentinels
I started this game with excalibur (with exalted blade build) and it was my main until umbra and then until wukong rework
Yet i learned at MR 30 (i just want to point out i was running with excalibur al lthe time till MR idk 27 or so) i learned that if i crouch while exalted blade is active excalibur turned into become stationary instead of moving forward with each slice
At MR 24 i know already for very long about umbra becoming specter when you go out as operator and i was even using/abusing it all the time but at that MR 24 i learned FROM ANOTHER PLAYER that if i take half decent sniper rifle go to index and run as operator umbra will aimbot hell out of corpus

I can go on and on with examples they are not important but thing is some of the stuff i could figure out own my own yet i did not
Maybe you did? Who cares since problem is that some players dont and that is the issue here

Providing players with minimum explanation and not leaving them to figure crap on their own which in some cases makes them quit
 

So my list for you is pointless for me it would be sole reason i would not quit after few days and maybe it would prevent others from doing exact same thing

This highlights another issue of Warframe. There are a lot of niche mechanics that don't matter at all in normal play. Players can actually plow through the Star Chart without ever learning how to Bullet Jump.

Minmaxers like to talk about damage modifiers and how banes are a separate multiplier to Base Damage. How banes double dip into Bleed for some reason. About how the new Acolyte Arcanes made Serration obsolete, etc, etc, but none of that really matters.

Small things like how armor modifiers double dip. Radiation bypasses 75% of Alloy armor while dealing +75%. Useless knowledge outside of Bleed immune Bosses.

Warframe has needless complexity that adds no depth to gameplay because everything can be breezed over with big enough numbers.

 

[ZeroX4]

2 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

This highlights another issue of Warframe. There are a lot of niche mechanics that don't matter at all in normal play. Players can actually plow through the Star Chart without ever learning how to Bullet Jump.

Minmaxers like to talk about damage modifiers and how banes are a separate multiplier to Base Damage. How banes double dip into Bleed for some reason. About how the new Acolyte Arcanes made Serration obsolete, etc, etc, but none of that really matters.

Small things like how armor modifiers double dip. Radiation bypasses 75% of Alloy armor while dealing +75%. Useless knowledge outside of Bleed immune Bosses.

Warframe has needless complexity that adds no depth to gameplay because everything can be breezed over with big enough numbers.

 

Just wtf?

No 1 cares if warframe is dumb as f*** or complicated like rocket scinence
Some of us know how to code how to idk repair stuff engineer or whatever yet we dont know how to make makeup for our girls or how to bake a cake
Not because its complicated but because we didnt learn it

I can repair your PC repair your car or a bike yet i cant bake you apple pie
Not because its over complicated just because i never learned how
And judging at how many ppl do it without any effort i bet its just matter of learning so in other words give me some info on HOW TO
MAYBE just MAYBE same story is for warframe? Little bit info about HOW TO an there would be no problem for many new players?

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, ZeroX4 said:

Sorry Sneaky to break it to you but i am not as smart as you and so does many other ppl
Its not being sarcastic but i am dumb as F*** and some stuff that is obvious to you is cryptic to me

Care for few examples?
I learned at mr 25 (at least on my own) that in most cases 1st letter of relic name is corresponding to 1st letter of prime part it offers as rarest one for example NEO P2 = Pyrana Prime (i made it up but you get the idea)
At MR 16 i learned that with limbos cataclysm and hydroids tentacles where they spawn is not where you stand but where you point your corshair
At MR 14 i learned that i can rez other players with operator while in void mode to avoid death and before that i was running with sanctuary mod on all my sentinels
I started this game with excalibur (with exalted blade build) and it was my main until umbra and then until wukong rework
Yet i learned at MR 30 (i just want to point out i was running with excalibur al lthe time till MR idk 27 or so) i learned that if i crouch while exalted blade is active excalibur turned into become stationary instead of moving forward with each slice
At MR 24 i know already for very long about umbra becoming specter when you go out as operator and i was even using/abusing it all the time but at that MR 24 i learned FROM ANOTHER PLAYER that if i take half decent sniper rifle go to index and run as operator umbra will aimbot hell out of corpus

I can go on and on with examples they are not important but thing is some of the stuff i could figure out own my own yet i did not
Maybe you did? Who cares since problem is that some players dont and that is the issue here

Providing players with minimum explanation and not leaving them to figure crap on their own which in some cases makes them quit
 

So my list for you is pointless for me it would be sole reason i would not quit after few days and maybe it would prevent others from doing exact same thing

I cant say anyhting but good points really. I truely see where you are coming from and it actually helps me to get a perspective on why some players may need better tutorials. As they say, you cant learn old dogs how to sit, and I have to admit I am the old hellhound. It is extremely hard to put yourself in the situation of others when something has been second nature to you for a very long time, it really clouds your view on things.

What I think would be best would be to update the codex and make it an actual knowledge database. With info regarding relics like you mention where it tells you what the designation of a relic means and that it may refer to several different rare items that share the same starting letter etc. Just as possibly updated tooltips for skills like cata and squid. I dont think actual forced tutorials would be good, since we'd end up with what I said earlier, annoyed players if they are forced or players not finding them if they are optional, and if people have trouble learning or such they wouldnt remember what the tutorial told them. A knowledge base could also easily be linked to each system window down in the right hand corner where everything else tends to be situated and it could be part of the esc screen aswell in the same place and as the main page of the codex.

[FlerpDish]

IDK if this has been mentioned yet, but I'm pretty sure there's a basic tutorial about mods in one of the early quest. I recall I had to upgrade a mod to progress in a quest.

[ZeroX4]

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I cant say anyhting but good points really. I truely see where you are coming from and it actually helps me to get a perspective on why some players may need better tutorials. As they say, you cant learn old dogs how to sit, and I have to admit I am the old hellhound. It is extremely hard to put yourself in the situation of others when something has been second nature to you for a very long time, it really clouds your view on things.

What I think would be best would be to update the codex and make it an actual knowledge database. With info regarding relics like you mention where it tells you what the designation of a relic means and that it may refer to several different rare items that share the same starting letter etc. Just as possibly updated tooltips for skills like cata and squid. I dont think actual forced tutorials would be good, since we'd end up with what I said earlier, annoyed players if they are forced or players not finding them if they are optional, and if people have trouble learning or such they wouldnt remember what the tutorial told them. A knowledge base could also easily be linked to each system window down in the right hand corner where everything else tends to be situated and it could be part of the esc screen aswell in the same place and as the main page of the codex.

You have same issue most likely like i do
Believing "why ask everyone what is better? This is better for a fact"
But not everything is better for us equally
I will never say that for everyone tutorials would help cause they exist
Bare minimum of information that should be included in the software you are using on how to actually use it kinda yes

Like with that kind of points i made IF iv seen message like (while modding) "For basic rules of mod and upgrading mechanism head to codex on your orbiter" i would not think of anything more that would be needed
Simple explanation how upgrading affect mods simple explanation where to get resources for upgrading mods and then ending up with message "go unlock all nodes with knowledge and arsenal you posses now" would be more than enough since rest we would learn on the way

I run windows 7 i know how to reinstall it (switched back from 10 to play old games) but i know how to install both
And even if 11 will be here i will be well equipped to install it without any tutorial or manual

Now imagine your mom or dad being faced with need to reinstall any of them and what would she/he need?
Considering they are not stupid since they were smart enough to rise you and manage your home and education along the way
Online tutorial which they would not have idea how to find (i mean not even considering they could find any or that any could exist) or maybe included manual?

Assuming your parents are old enough to not be so easy with PCs

I came to warframe from games where more or less all info was always self explanatory i have upgrade item i shove it into my sword upgrading cost currency which drops from monsters my sword do more damage i go kill higher level monsters 
Warframe isnt complex its just isnt straightforward like making apple pie but do you know how to do it?
I sure dont i just have general idea i have no idea how much eggs are needed or how long to bake it i could check it but when i buy whole kit to make apple pie from store
Should i look how to make it on youtube or have bare minimum manual/guide inside the package?

[Lutesque]

8 hours ago, FlerpDish said:

IDK if this has been mentioned yet, but I'm pretty sure there's a basic tutorial about mods in one of the early quest. I recall I had to upgrade a mod to progress in a quest.

It was. junction Requirement I think .. you had to slot 3 Mods into one Item....

 

[Cenyn]

On 2021-10-07 at 7:28 PM, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Radiation bypasses 75% of Alloy armor while dealing +75%.

Huh, I was honestly not aware of this. It doesn't change slash's fundamental advantage at high levels, but interesting to know, so thanks for mentioning it even offhand.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

13 hours ago, Cenyn said:

Huh, I was honestly not aware of this. It doesn't change slash's fundamental advantage at high levels, but interesting to know, so thanks for mentioning it even offhand.

No problem.

It's a fact that's only really relevant against Eidolons or back when the Wolf of Saturn Six first dropped. Corrosive has the same +75% against Ferrite, which was why people used it against Liches even if the Lich was "Corrosive Resistant" back when they had status immunity.

Just for comparisons sake, consider a level 90 Heavy Gunner with 5950 Ferrite armor which provides 95.2% DR.

100% Neutral will deal 4.8% Damage. 1x Neutral

100% Viral will deal 1.75x Neutral against Cloned Flesh, 8.4% Damage. 1.75x Neutral

100% Puncture will deal 1.5xNeutral while ignoring 50% armor, 13.7% Damage. 2.85x Neutral

100% Corrosive will deal 1.75xNetural while ignoring 75% armor, 29.3% Damage. 6.1x Neutral

35% True Damage from a Bleed tic will always deals 35% True damage per tic regardless of level as it ignores armor 100%. 7.29x Neutral

For a more detailed comparison see chart below.

As armor scaling changes at level 70, effectiveness of anti-armor becomes less aggressive beyond that point which is why the True Damage line goes from Exponential to Linear.

Disclaimer:

Of course this is merely just a rough illustration as this does not take into account Corrosive or Viral procs or the fact 2 element mods gives +180% Corrosive, not 100%, or the fact Bleed tics a lot more than once. This is just to highlight the relative power of armor modifiers and true damage over neutral types.

 

 

 

 

[ZeroX4]

On 2021-10-08 at 2:46 PM, FlerpDish said:

IDK if this has been mentioned yet, but I'm pretty sure there's a basic tutorial about mods in one of the early quest. I recall I had to upgrade a mod to progress in a quest.

Do you see a difference in 
Go upgrade any mod (where someone will upgrade any or if its required to max he will pick the one which can be rank3 at max)
And
Go upgrade Vitality to max and equip it on your warframe (just so player can see how fully upgraded mod change things up which we could call organic learning curve)