New Mentality: Buff Less Used Frames to Make them as Good as More Used Frames

[George_PPS]

When there are good and fun frames or weapons that got “overly used” as some may say, these players like to propose nerfs. How about the vast majority players who are SILENT AND ENJOYING these popular frames and items? Caving to these extremely tiny yet complaining players/veterans to nerf frames and weapons is the worst thing to build long-term and lasting player base that will go down hugely every time you nerf a bunch of items players have invested a lot of time, efforts and Plat/money to build up and ENJOY. 
 

Instead, if the rework and updates are on making the weaker ones as fun and powerful as the top frames and weapons, players will know that their efforts won’t be wasted and can therefore really play and also invest in this game more long term. 
 

The weaker ones should be buffed to truly balance and EXPAND options for MORE PLAYERS, not through cancellation culture. When you cancel frames and weapons, you are also cancel players. Wukong is a great example. If there are changes needed, it’s to further refine Wukong and buff other frames to the same levels. 
 

Wukong is a great frame with great abilities and great design. Let it stay the way it is. Buff the weak ones. 
 

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

If you define "Great design" as "The most things that supersede the game design elements around them" then sure, Wukong has 'great' design.

Clone supersedes combat, Malevolent Fart supersedes movement and level design (including things like door/spy vault mechanisms). Defy (used to) supersede incoming damage, but Shield Gating abuse exists for all.

11 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

How about the vast majority players who are SILENT AND ENJOYING these popular frames and items?

You're also incorrectly inferring "SILENT AND ENJOYING" from "Silent and ambivalent". Even the heavy-users broadly don't care if Wukong gets nerfed because it's Wukong, they're just using what's most lazily convenient and don't feel like investigating what the next cheesiest thing is once they're used to the current one.

Apathy/Ambivalence is almost always the real 'silent majority', in any decent sample size they vastly outweigh the silent and non-silent strong opinions on both ends of the spectrum.

[Colyeses]

8 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Even the heavy-users broadly don't care if Wukong gets nerfed

How do you know this, exactly?

[Tyreaus]

24 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

If you define "Great design" as "The most things that supersede the game design elements around them" then sure, Wukong has 'great' design.

This is probably the bigger reason behind nerfing something like Wukong. It's less about being too powerful and more about having the kind of power that overwrites gameplay elements. Think along the lines of Ember's old World On Fire getting reworked because it was an AFK machine, instead of just "reaching an arbitrary strength point".

In that vein, buffing Warframes asks the question of "how?" If we're trying to make something Wukong-like, it isn't just sheer power, but the kind of power. Trinity is still a pretty good healer but her power doesn't focus in the right areas to make her great. It's the nature of a support Warframe. So if we want to make her on the level of Wukong, we start having to look at rewriting her entire purpose and identity.

It's the same sort of thing with AoE / non-AoE weapons. Numbers can't bridge every gap. Mechanics come into play too—arguably much more so with Warframes. Changing mechanics is a lot harder, and a lot more controversial, than just tweaking some numbers.

EDIT: I personally feel the solution for a lot of that is developing better niches for those weapons and Warframes, because neither of the alternatives—nerfing what's good into the dirt or mechanically altering what isn't good—are all that great. That's not easy to do either, but it'd at least minimize negative reactions.

[George_PPS]

15 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

If you define "Great design" as "The most things that supersede the game design elements around them" then sure, Wukong has 'great' design.

Clone supersedes combat, Malevolent Fart supersedes movement and level design (including things like door/spy vault mechanisms). Defy (used to) supersede incoming damage, but Shield Gating abuse exists for all.

You're also incorrectly inferring "SILENT AND ENJOYING" from "Silent and ambivalent". Even the heavy-users broadly don't care if Wukong gets nerfed because it's Wukong, they're just using what's most lazily convenient and don't feel like investigating what the next cheesiest thing is once they're used to the current one.

Apathy/Ambivalence is almost always the real 'silent majority', in any decent sample size they vastly outweigh the silent and non-silent strong opinions on both ends of the spectrum.

Your own experience is indeed personal, just like everyone else's. No two players are the same. 

Great designs are designs many players love and enjoy. Don't' over think in this PvE game. 

And yes, from my own experience and also seeing how some newbie friends play the game, they do not join the discussions of the forums like us and most veterans. All they care is being powerful enough to complete and ENJOY the missions. These players are the players who will pay and support the game the most financially and should be considered. The loud and complaining tiny minority shouldn't get their ways just because they are loud and extremely vocal. You can never satisfy these players who are mostly veterans complaining about power creep and not happy to start with. I mean they have reached the pinnacle state of the game, why do they want to ruin the fun of newer and other players with always nerfing requests? 

Let's buff the weak frames, weapons, and enemies instead. 

 

[Colyeses]

10 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

It's less about being too powerful and more about having the kind of power that overwrites gameplay elements.

However, nothing substantiates this. 

In all this discourse, I haven't yet seen an example of why Wukong is a problem, other than referring to the fact that he is evidently well-liked. 

From a perspective of design, keeping in mind all other Warframes, what -exactly- is making Wukong a problem?

[PublikDomain]

You're again misunderstanding why people like me call for nerfs. It has nothing to do with things being popular or having high usage, it has to do with why things have a high usage and what that promotes. Wukong doesn't deserve a nerf because he's popular, he deserves a nerf because he promotes the same passivity many frames have been reworked for in the past. Which, at least in his particular case, is probably "fine" because at least he's not getting in the way of other players' enjoyment - unlike the AoE meta.

I'll go out on a limb and make the claim that most people who are OK with nerfs are also OK with buffs as long as it's appropriate. A lot of frames should be buffed. Not gonna find any disagreement there. But a lot of frames should also be nerfed too.

4 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

From a perspective of design, keeping in mind all other Warframes, what -exactly- is making Wukong a problem?

IMO it's his clone being duration-less and also strong enough to play most of the game for the user, and Cloudwalker also providing stealth that allows him to ignore laser doors. Other frames that promoted passivity in the past were nerfed for the same reasons, and while some frames can ignore laser doors Cloudwalker allows players to do that at speed. If his clone had a duration or some other limiting factor and if Cloudwalker didn't make him invisible/ignore laser doors then I think that'd be fine. Enemies should still shoot at the big cloud of death and security systems should still see him.

But that's kinda it, Wukong doesn't really need nerfs because he doesn't have a way to harm the experiences of other players unlike something like the AoE meta.

[Tyreaus]

Just now, Colyeses said:

However, nothing substantiates this. 

In all this discourse, I haven't yet seen an example of why Wukong is a problem, other than referring to the fact that he is evidently well-liked. 

From a perspective of design, keeping in mind all other Warframes, what -exactly- is making Wukong a problem?

To clarify: I believe that's probably what would fuel a nerf, if one was deployed. Simple strength has seldom been an issue—it's kind of the game's selling point. That strength overriding content is where it starts to be seen as problematic. Arguably, Cloud Walker bypassing both enemies and level geometry could be such a problem area.

That's where I'd point, anyway.

[BiancaRoughfin]

53 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

New Mentality: Buff Less Used Frames to Make them as Good as More Used Frames

That wont fix the issue, the game suffers heavily from Power Creep and its very common to see people complaining on the forums how Easy/Trivial it is to play it, that there is no challenge. Raising all frame`s damage numbers will just increase the problem.

54 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

When there are good and fun frames or weapons that got “overly used” as some may say, these players like to propose nerfs.

There is a big difference between GOOD and FUN, Good is when its able to do what it ment, Fun is when its balanced to make the game challenging but not too easy to the point its no longer appealing. If the issue is Power Creep, these frames people often use may be Too good but not fun. Standing still spamming abilities is not fun. There has to be a balance between Gunning and Ability use.

59 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

How about the vast majority players who are SILENT AND ENJOYING these popular frames and items?

The game players who constantly use some cheesy build Press-key-to-win frame and later come to the forums share their discontent that the game offers no challenge and is too easy?

1 hour ago, George_PPS said:

Caving to these extremely tiny yet complaining players/veterans to nerf frames and weapons is the worst thing to build long-term and lasting player base that will go down hugely every time you nerf a bunch of items players have invested a lot of time, efforts and Plat/money to build up and ENJOY.

If a Veteran is complaining and asking for a Nerf, its for the reasons i mentioned above, they know far better than any mid-level player the flaws of the game and whats keeping it from being better, they know for experience.

1 hour ago, George_PPS said:

Instead, if the rework and updates are on making the weaker ones as fun and powerful as the top frames and weapons, players will know that their efforts won’t be wasted and can therefore really play and also invest in this game more long term. 

Not only is this hugely incorrect, it will only fuel the issues the game already have as mentioned above, this is also a very poor thought process, its far easier toning down 10 frames then tweaking 35 of them and with the game`s current start chart levels (Steel Path included), there is no reason some frames should be so strong.

1 hour ago, George_PPS said:

The weaker ones should be buffed to truly balance and EXPAND options for MORE PLAYERS, not through cancellation culture. When you cancel frames and weapons, you are also cancel players. Wukong is a great example. If there are changes needed, it’s to further refine Wukong and buff other frames to the same levels.

Whkong is a great frame with great abilities and great design. Let it stay the way it is. Buff the weak ones.

I had to contain my laugh at this for being at work.

Wukong is no example of how a frame should work, his rework made him extremely overpowered and promoted AFK play to a whole new degree. I have stopped counting the amount of times i joined a Steel Path survival mission and there was a Player with Wukong hiding in the corner in his operator mode wile the Spectral Twin did all the killing and was kept alive by a Wisp specter.

And no, Nerfing a frame is not canceling it nor the player that enjoys it.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

No thank you. This is like inexperienced children saying to make everything like McDonald's, because they can't understand there's specific reasons why McDonald's is only useful for certain situations.

[TheLexiConArtist]

31 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

However, nothing substantiates this. 

In all this discourse, I haven't yet seen an example of why Wukong is a problem, other than referring to the fact that he is evidently well-liked. 

From a perspective of design, keeping in mind all other Warframes, what -exactly- is making Wukong a problem?

Okay, from dev-perspective, here's an example; we don't even need other frames:

On Call Crew: Time limited with 2.33(duration) cooldown because lets game play itself ~afk because too stronk for most content because uses player item + modifiers.

Wukong Clone: Indefinite time (health-based but also no cooldown and minimal cost), lets game play itself because too stronk because uses player item + modifiers.

Clone matches (if not exceeds) power grade of explicitly purposefully-restricted alternative, yet lacks commensurate restriction. Ergo, where On Call is limited due to problematic strength, Wukong is a problem.

 

See Also: Mesa spherical aimbot murderfest  -> Mesa directed conic aimbot murderfest. Arguably, still didn't go far enough.

[Colyeses]

6 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Raising all frame`s damage numbers will just increase the problem.

That's the beauty of this problem: Wukong's damage figures are actually pretty low. Pretty much all he offers is just ease of play. 

7 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Fun is when its balanced to make the game challenging but not too easy to the point its no longer appealing.

Warframe has a series of fundamental issues where it cannot offer that challenge. Compare it to Destiny 2, with a heavily curated spawn-director and zero hitscan, allowing for more tailored fights with far more skill expression. Warframe's engine isn't built to offer that same sort of difficulty. The only difficulty it can offer is a pure numbers game. 

13 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

If a Veteran is complaining and asking for a Nerf, its for the reasons i mentioned above, they know far better than any mid-level player the flaws of the game and whats keeping it from being better, they know for experience.

Top-down balancing has a tendency to kill playability. 

15 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Not only is this hugely incorrect, it will only fuel the issues the game already have as mentioned above, this is also a very poor thought process, its far easier toning down 10 frames then tweaking 35 of them and with the game`s current start chart levels (Steel Path included), there is no reason some frames should be so strong.

Yes, you can tone down those ten frames, but then you'd have to rename the game to 'Gun'. Warframes, on average, are really rather bad. There's a LOT of junk frames that desperately need help because their gameplay doesn't flow right or they just straight up underperform. There are a plethora of abilities that aren't worth the button-press, let alone their mana costs. 

Warframes didn't scale out of control as a whole. Among the ten most recent frames are some definite upticks in quality, but going up the release order list, there's just a string of frames that see little to no use anymore, sometimes by intent of design (Ivara), but most of the time because the frame is just plain bad. 

We did get heavily boosted defensive options in terms of mods. But again, that comes down to the unrestricted mob spawner mixed in with hitscan. If enemy damage scales, it will eventually scale to oneshot you. 

Beyond that, the biggest problem we have is actually the guns. Their damage scaled up to an extremely excessive degree. But there's no one clamouring to have about 65% of the weapon roster nerfed down to the level of Braton and Soma, for some reason.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Er.

No thanks. I’d rather leave it in the hands of the player to choose to make their frame so powerful, instead of forcing it on everyone

edit: same with weapons

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

I think a lot of people tend to exaggerate how powerful Wukong really is. Cloud Walker bypassing lasers makes Wukong the single best choice for spy missions, but besides that, no nerf is really needed. Celestial Twin is as powerful as the most powerful weapons, so nerfing the ability doesn't do much while overpowered AoE weapons exist. As for Cloud Walker allowing players to bypass everything, that's not exclusive to Cloud Walker, it only shaves off extra time spent running past enemies at a slower pace. The issue is that content lets the player do that in the first place, and that mission objectives aren't impactful enough from being instantly completed.

On the other hand, the people saying "never nerf! only buff!" don't know anything about game design. Both nerfs and buffs are necessary to keep items within a reasonable range of power so that content might be designed to be engaging and enticing to as many players as possible. You can't make content engaging if your player base is strong enough to mindlessly steamroll anything you make. I am very strongly in favor of DE being at least 10x more active in balancing existing content, both with nerfs and buffs. Even establishing a base line for balance- the bare minimum- would be enough to get the community to think more about balance.

edit: I have to point out the link to a GHS video. Warframe YouTubers have some terrible takes, and it's amazing how many people think their opinions somehow matter enough to bring to a discussion.

[Colyeses]

7 minutes ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

Cloud Walker bypassing lasers makes Wukong the single best choice for spy missions

Prowling Ivara would like a word.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

1 minute ago, Colyeses said:

Prowling Ivara would like a word.

She would certainly like a word, considering her primary niche was stolen by a frame who is already very versatile. Bringing an Ivara to a spy mission still works, sure, but you're still going to be moving slower than a Wukong rushing through everything with Cloud Walker.

[Yamazuki]

A Warframe having low usage rate doesn't mean they are weak. Some of them completely solve issues people complain about, but won't ever be used. Some could do with modernization changes, such as reducing or removing some restrictions that are no longer being used on newer Warframes or energy/base number changes.

Also, usage statistics may vary between content type. Look at Scarlet Spear for an example. This is why I wish DE would at least show usage rates between content type, rather than an overall. A significant portion of the game is restarting short missions/bounties. The events we get typically don't favor Wukong at all. During SS, regardless of Ground or Space, he did nothing. During OV he did nothing. During Forma-Grindathon a 'useless' Warframe saves more time than Wukong can contribute. When you look at premades looking for a composition, when have you ever seen someone asking for a Wukong?

Some Warframes will realistically not be used unless they are overpowered to a high degree. You can look at League for examples of this given how you can lookup a variety of different statistics and you'll see that a lot of popular options aren't even the best performers of their roles.

[L3512]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

No thank you. This is like inexperienced children saying to make everything like McDonald's, because they can't understand there's specific reasons why McDonald's is only useful for certain situations.

Promoting heart disease?

[Uhkretor]

4 hours ago, George_PPS said:

Great designs are designs many players love and enjoy.

I hate everything else other than Excalibur so~ unless

4 hours ago, George_PPS said:

many players

unanimously include everyone then that very sentence is incorrect...

Spoiler

... Forget potential interpretations, its incorrect anyway...

 

Also, I know I already told you this more than once but since it seems that I have to tell you this yet again... Can you please just stop including other people in a vain attempt to add weight to your arguments as if you know the game experiences of everyone else in the entire world? Just use your own experience alone for your argument.

Everyone will thank you for it in advance...

Spoiler

They will also discuss whatever needs to be discussed based on their experiences if there's any need for it...

... Or not. Its entirely their choice regarding that aspect.

[George_PPS]

For supporters of this topic, THANK YOU for likes and positive feedbacks. That's exactly why we need to speak up to not let few yet vocal players to produce seas of whining and complaining every single day to destroy the game's signature fun factors.

 

For players who cry power creep or complaining some abilities being too powerful. Yes, these logic can literally be applied to any frame and any abilities. For example, Loki's invisibility which completely hides the frame TOTALLY from enemies' sight! You want to say that's a bad design so it should be cancelled?  Or should the invisibility work only 50% of the time? Give players who enjoy the powerful frames and many other weapons/items a break by just not use what you don't like and instead propose what you want to be buffed. Or propose buffing enemies!

 

[----Legacy----]

9 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

For example, Loki's invisibility which completely hides the frame TOTALLY from enemies' sight!

Do you really want to bring out Loki to make a point in this discussion?

Loki is a squishy frame, his invisibility is only that, he can still be heard by enemies, they will attack the source of the noise (unless he's using silenced weapons), still requires to use parkour to move around, can't get through lasers undetected and can still die to AoE damage unlike Wukong, a tanky frame who -while in cloud walker- become immune to damage, heals himself (and his clone), gets cleansed of any status afflicting him, gets fast free 3D movement, staggers enemies within the cloud and bypasses lasers, all of it for half the energy cost of Loki's invisibility.

So yeah, Loki's invisibility is fine, the issue -in this particular scenario- is how cloudwalker makes too much for a smaller investment in a warframe that doesn't even need so much power.

And that's without even getting started on the comparison between Celestial Twin with Decoy or any other power that summons entities to fight along the player for that matter.

[Lutesque]

15 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

If you define "Great design" as "The most things that supersede the game design elements around them" then sure, Wukong has 'great' design.

Don't be hating on the Monkey for not sucking like all the other Warframe's.... 👀 

It's not his fault....

15 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Clone supersedes combat, Malevolent Fart supersedes movement and level design (including things like door/spy vault mechanisms). Defy (used to) supersede incoming damage, but Shield Gating abuse exists for all.

This is the "Cancellation Culture" OP was Talking about.... Engaging with Both the Enemies and those Security Measures is just not fine.... There's nothing wrong with Skipping them if DE refuses to do anything to make them more Fun...

Case in point... I was doing a Rescue Arbitration today and so I decided I would Try Going in through the Vents to enter the Prison Cell.... So I go to The Right Side and see that the Vent is Sealed .. then I go to the Left Side and see that the Vent is also Sealed.....

.... 

😐

.....

So now I have go in through the Front Door like the world's least creative Ninja.... 

I mean.... I tried did I not.... I tried to engage with The Level Design and I was Punished For it.... 

So no.... You can point to Wukong as the Problem.... He's literaly the only Ray Of Sunshine in this Game.....

Well.... Him.... And Booben.... 👀

15 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

You're again misunderstanding why people like me call for nerfs. It has nothing to do with things being popular or having high usage, it has to do with why things have a high usage and what that promotes. Wukong doesn't deserve a nerf because he's popular, he deserves a nerf because he promotes the same passivity many frames have been reworked for in the past. Which, at least in his particular case, is probably "fine" because at least he's not getting in the way of other players' enjoyment - unlike the AoE meta.

If that's the case then Forget Wukong and Start with the Biggest Offender of this Crime....

 

[George_PPS]

8 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Do you really want to bring out Loki to make a point in this discussion?

....... 

Exactly. Loki is just ONE example. Why focus so much on destroying/nerfing what works and what players like to use? Loki needs be buffed greatly if anyone wishes all frames to be used the same or equally "powerful" and "fun" -  which is a strange and impossible scenario to start with by the way. The same analysis can be applied to any frames and any abilities. There are reasons why certain frames are used more or less. Just like in real life. No two cars are exactly alike, and there are different sales numbers of DIFFERENT cars that perform, look, and priced DIFFERENTLY resulting in different rates of usage/ownership.  Let's not destroy what players like and use. Buff the weaker/least used ones over time and one by one instead. 

Biting Frost for Frost is a great example of buffing. It gives Frost more powerful through the new Mod. It's one way to quickly buff a frame.

[George_PPS]

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

You're again misunderstanding why people like me call for nerfs. It has nothing to do with things being popular or having high usage, it has to do with why things have a high usage and what that promotes. Wukong doesn't deserve a nerf because he's popular, he deserves a nerf because he promotes the same passivity many frames have been reworked for in the past. Which, at least in his particular case, is probably "fine" because at least he's not getting in the way of other players' enjoyment - unlike the AoE meta.

Any fun and highly used frames and weapons are usually also effective. You all try to claim it's something else. No, it's always the most liked and popular frames and weapons that get picked on and nerfed. This is seriously bad for growing player base long term.  As of "passivity"? you can't play this frame passive or afk whatsoever. There are also many other frames with abilities that allow for one key damage with no movement. You want to get rid of all of anything that you deem "passive"? Just have fun. Players just want to have fun. Overall this sounds to me it's other frames that need to be buffed or improved to the same level of "usage" or given some similar abilities instead of the other way around. 

WHAT do you propose to improve what's weak or not popular instead of the other way? Complaining is easy. Positive mentality is hard. You change your mindset, you make the best elements in the game feel great.

[MekaDovah]

I kinda agree with this on the grounds that I'm tired of DE's go to solution to everything being taking power away. This is a grindy looter shooter. The entire point is to amass power, but if the only way to be challenged is to take it away, then why am I bothering in the first place? Why spend hours upon hours doing a repetitive, boring grind to fill meters and waiting for the RNG to roll in my favor, ultimately for nothing? Power is only meaningful when we have a use for it.

Plus if fearing more "press 4 to win" scenarios has led to Caliban and Yareli being severely undertuned, I think that fear needs to be re-evaluated.