I must ask again, WHY do daggers have the WORST stealth damage multiplier?

[motorfirebox]

The whole point of a dagger is stabbing someone in close combat. That's the thing they're best at. So why do they have a 4x stealth damage multiplier (and that only because they strike twice), when most weapons have 8x?

And for the love of TMITW, why do GIANT BLADES AND HAMMERS have the HIGHEST stealth attack multiplier? You can't stealthily slam a fifty-pound mallet into somebody's head! That's gonna make a noise! To kill someone stealthily with an oversized weapon, you'd have to use the weapon in ways it's not designed for. A stealthy attack with a gigantic axe should do less damage, not more.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

[taiiat]

i mean, i could see how one could argue that a big Weapon is still really lethal when being used in a Stealthy-ish manner.

more just a reason for Melee Weapons with really low Multipliers to atleast be more in line with the rest, if not elevated further above.

[W3zeer]

Because we have this great thing called "Covert Lethality"... which was nerfed years ago... so ...

Daggers give mastery points I guess...

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, motorfirebox said:

The whole point of a dagger is stabbing someone in close combat.

Their main purpose is to be cheap, light, handy, and relatively concealable.   If money and weight are no issue, and the user is invisible, using a huge sword isn't ridiculous.  Ok, it's somewhat ridiculous.  :P  But maybe not quite as ridiculous when it's got to kill a robot or a giant armored bioengineered humanoid or a techno-parasitic mutant.

But yeah, the gaming trope is they should be great at stealth kills.   Cover Lethality is their nod to that, but it doesn't go nearly far enough.  (Anymore.) 

And better than boosting the bandaid mod back up would be addressing the multipliers.

[L3512]

Daggers and knives are last resort weapons for combat, the stealth multiplier is a punishment for you for not taking a proper weapon to a fight.

[Leqesai]

It is kind of funny that daggers have low stealth multiplier but it is even funnier to me that they're one of the best heavy attack weapons.

[Tyreaus]

2 hours ago, L3512 said:

Daggers and knives are last resort weapons for combat, the stealth multiplier is a punishment for you for not taking a proper weapon to a fight.

Ah, yes. Punishment for not taking a proper weapon into a fight on a spaceship.

Like a bow.

[PollexMessier]

Covert lethality insta kill was literally the only reason to use daggers until they changed it. But even then mele power creep has rendered that obsolete anyways.

It makes sense from a realism standpoint that daggers are pretty useless compared to crushing your enemies skull with a rocket hammer or decapitating them with a sword half the size of their body. But from a gameplay perspective having a weapon class... 2 actually because dual daggers exist for some reason, that is completely worthless and has no special advantage is really dumb. I'd say the fix would be to give them insane finisher damage. But finisher damage with much stronger weapons one shot anything that can take finishers anyways.

They're just irrelevant relics of a long past age of the game. Even if they inherently ignored armor and shields I think it'd be hard to justify using them over much stronger weapons.

[L3512]

3 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Ah, yes. Punishment for not taking a proper weapon into a fight on a spaceship.

Like a bow.

At least a traditional type bow offers some mechanical advantage over a dagger hey?

But than again if we look at the 2021 statistics, it's not like single target bows are super common so while they are an option they are also outclassed.

[Famecans]

6 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Their main purpose is to be cheap, light, handy, and relatively concealable.   If money and weight are no issue, and the user is invisible, using a huge sword isn't ridiculous.  Ok, it's somewhat ridiculous.  :P  But maybe not quite as ridiculous when it's got to kill a robot or a giant armored bioengineered humanoid or a techno-parasitic mutant.

But yeah, the gaming trope is they should be great at stealth kills.   Cover Lethality is their nod to that, but it doesn't go nearly far enough.  (Anymore.) 

And better than boosting the bandaid mod back up would be addressing the multipliers.

[irony] Thanks for the explanation, now I'm waiting for Parazon in the shape of a giant hammer like Fragor Prime. [/irony]

3 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

Covert lethality insta kill was literally the only reason to use daggers until they changed it. But even then mele power creep has rendered that obsolete anyways.

It makes sense from a realism standpoint that daggers are pretty useless compared to crushing your enemies skull with a rocket hammer or decapitating them with a sword half the size of their body. But from a gameplay perspective having a weapon class... 2 actually because dual daggers exist for some reason, that is completely worthless and has no special advantage is really dumb. I'd say the fix would be to give them insane finisher damage. But finisher damage with much stronger weapons one shot anything that can take finishers anyways.

They're just irrelevant relics of a long past age of the game. Even if they inherently ignored armor and shields I think it'd be hard to justify using them over much stronger weapons.

It's easier to destroy a robot by cutting wires and punching edges than trying to cut through armor with a giant machete or hammer.

Small melee are stealthy, suitable for surprise and specific attacks, great as tactical tools as they penetrate vital points. Stealth attacking an armored enemy with a blunt melee is almost illogical and I still don't understand why this multiplier exists;

Now we have parazon similar to daggers; but daggers have less function to kill that Parazon; hammers can slash armors and kill like Parazon; [Convert Letality] cant make Daggers like Parazon; and Melee v3.0 is not ready to understand all theses numbers mutiplyers and Parazons... I hope this multiplier has some really useful functionality otherwise all melees could be 8x, and Parazons Primes can be namede like daggers, ok its crazy to understand.

They could put Ivara's stealth loot ability on all melees, but the highest percentage of extra loot goes to daggers. example 300% extra loot to daggers on kill... I heard someone saying 800%? ok 800% looks nice

[kgabor]

Because DE devs are hipsters and thought it would be fun to make rapiers efficient at gentlemanly backstabbing and daggers suck at everything.

Also Gimli is a ninja now so the question is not why hammers are so good at this, it's why axes aren't.

Tbh. no idea, i used to use daggers when Covert Lethality was still good and there's no point anymore.

[taiiat]

29 minutes ago, Famecans said:

It's easier to destroy a robot by cutting wires and punching edges than trying to cut through armor with a giant machete or hammer.

Stealth attacking an armored enemy with a blunt melee is almost illogical

this assumes you're using logical rules like Force having upper limits. that's not really how the Warframe Universe is setup, so therefore, eh, doesn't really apply. we can apply functionally infinite Force so long as there is the appropriate justification. cutting a Tank in half is totally reasonable as long as it's a Sci-Fi Weapon and not just a sharpened chunk of Steel.

why is hitting Armor with a Blunt Weapon 'illogical', exactly? that's literally the most effective & efficient way to deal with Armor. if you want to try to focus on realism, you should atleast do so consistently. 
for the sake of the game and our Damage Types we instead would ship sharp pointy things as being good vs Armor though.

[Famecans]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

why is hitting Armor with a Blunt Weapon 'illogical', exactly? that's literally the most effective & efficient way to deal with Armor. if you want to try to focus on realism, you should atleast do so consistently. 

technically in physics, the "piercing" mechanic is the most suitable for crossing massive and solid armor because the speed of the piercing object makes it minutely invasive, this action in combination with the factor "speed" creates a displaceable area in a small point and this small point is shifted as the velocity takes advantage of the total inert and static weight of the target mass.

[PollexMessier]

2 hours ago, Famecans said:

It's easier to destroy a robot by cutting wires and punching edges than trying to cut through armor with a giant machete or hammer.

Small melee are stealthy, suitable for surprise and specific attacks, great as tactical tools as they penetrate vital points. Stealth attacking an armored enemy with a blunt melee is almost illogical and I still don't understand why this multiplier exists;

You know how jedi effortlessly cut droids in half with lightsabers?

Now think about how many mele weapons in this game are similar energy weapons.

And now think about how many weapons that don't fall into that energy category have equal to or higher stats within the same weapon class.

These weapons are full of scifi bullS#&$ that we can scarcely compare to our own reality. Since the rank system doesn't permanently apply to the same weapon or weapon class, its not our characters skill that's affecting weapon rank. So the weapons themselves evolve as you use them, be it through AI or something to do the quasi-organic materials almost everything is made out of. Even the most basic of weapons in this universe are a lot more complicated and advanced than anything that exists today.
Do impact, puncture, and slash even mean the same thing to weapons like this as they do in our reality?
Do these robots even have wires? What sort of properties do the armor they're using even have?
The way some status works, especially given that it works the same way regardless of what you hit with it, implies status injects nanomachines into the target that inflict that status on them. It's impossible to apply current world logic to far flung future magic scifi weapons

So what is a dagger in a world where weapons act like this? A small thing with less reach and less room inside it for said scifi bullS#&$. What good is a dagger for stealth in a world when you can hit something in the face with a silent nuclear bomb? Or a 2 ton hammer you can twirl effortlessly with your pinky and makes no sound when using it to smash your enemies into pancakes with enough force to put a 20 meter crater in the ground? As long as it doesn't matter whether or not what's left is an unidentifiable mass of flesh and/or mechanical bits.

[RazerXPrime]

Would rather get stabbed with a dagger than with anything that can chop my head off. I always thought it's funny that things do more damage if you don't see it coming. Like a bullet to the head. It does more damage if I didn't know I was gonna get hit? Lol. All that stuff is from table top, where you roleplay that you do not have a counter reaction or defensive options. In games with active play this stuff makes no sense whatsoever.

[W3zeer]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb RazerXPrime:

Would rather get stabbed with a dagger than with anything that can chop my head off. I always thought it's funny that things do more damage if you don't see it coming. Like a bullet to the head. It does more damage if I didn't know I was gonna get hit? Lol. All that stuff is from table top, where you roleplay that you do not have a counter reaction or defensive options. In games with active play this stuff makes no sense whatsoever.

Maybe it's shock? ;)

Daggers were actually really effective weapons in a historical context, and in practice it doesn't really make any difference if you get stabbed by a dagger or  a sword, the size of the wound is basically the same. When I look at the blades of the Nikana Prime and the Karyst, I have to say I'd rather get stabbed by the Nikana. Of course this is a game and this doesn't matter, which is why it, like most "fantasy" settings when with the classic stealth-trope for them. What happend was that Covert Lethality made it possible for Ivara to stay in solo survivals indefinetly, so it had to go and with it the only niche daggers had. They have poor range, do poor damage and are now also bad at stabbing from stealth. An entire subclass of weapons reduced to nothing because an extremly small subset of players was willing to spend hours and hours for no real gain but bragging rights. Did it hurt the game? Not really, daggers were never good. They gave you a weapon to kill sortie 3 improved armor grineer before you had the meta weapons I guess, but that was pretty much it, hardly anyone equipped them even with guaranteed oneshot finishers. So even if they raised the stealth multiplier by the factor of 100 I still doubt ppl would use more daggers in normal missions. I am still in favour of something like that though, as it would give a few more options in special cases without breaking anything.

[RazerXPrime]

11 minutes ago, W3zeer said:

Maybe it's shock? ;)

Daggers were actually really effective weapons in a historical context, and in practice it doesn't really make any difference if you get stabbed by a dagger or  a sword, the size of the wound is basically the same. When I look at the blades of the Nikana Prime and the Karyst, I have to say I'd rather get stabbed by the Nikana. Of course this is a game and this doesn't matter, which is why it, like most "fantasy" settings when with the classic stealth-trope for them. What happend was that Covert Lethality made it possible for Ivara to stay in solo survivals indefinetly, so it had to go and with it the only niche daggers had. They have poor range, do poor damage and are now also bad at stabbing from stealth. An entire subclass of weapons reduced to nothing because an extremly small subset of players was willing to spend hours and hours for no real gain but bragging rights. Did it hurt the game? Not really, daggers were never good. They gave you a weapon to kill sortie 3 improved armor grineer before you had the meta weapons I guess, but that was pretty much it, hardly anyone equipped them even with guaranteed oneshot finishers. So even if they raised the stealth multiplier by the factor of 100 I still doubt ppl would use more daggers in normal missions. I am still in favour of something like that though, as it would give a few more options in special cases without breaking anything.

Daggers can be very effective. Historically and even nowadays knives and daggers are used in cqc combat. But still only viable vs unarmored oponents. You go up against a guy in full plate and you're holding a dagger you should just run away. You go up against a guy with a spear, you should just run away. 

Daggers have a great disadvantage and that is range. You're basically fighting hand to hand, unless you use knives you can throw. So a daggers in modern video games are immensely overpowered. No sane person would charge into a group of people wielding swords or other longer range weapons while wielding a dagger. That's just suicide. Taking equal skill in weaponry into account. In actual combat high chance you will die before you get to your opponent.

For daggers as well as hand to hand combat range is pivotal to get into your advantage. I practiced Wing Chun for a long time. We used a base tactical requirement we call "eat space". Meaning be as close to your opponent so he cannot do any large moves. Be in his face at all times. Overwhelm. It's just that getting there is a problem if your opponent is wielding a weapon with more range.

At any rate, I was mentioning something that could do more damage like chopping my head off. Of course a sword you use as a stabbing weapon and a dagger would more or less have the same impact. Depending on type of sword/dagger and technique used.

[W3zeer]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb RazerXPrime:

Daggers can be very effective. Historically and even nowadays knives and daggers are used in cqc combat. But still only viable vs unarmored oponents. You go up against a guy in full plate and you're holding a dagger you should just run away. You go up against a guy with a spear, you should just run away. 

Daggers have a great disadvantage and that is range. You're basically fighting hand to hand, unless you use knives you can throw. So a daggers in modern video games are immensely overpowered. No sane person would charge into a group of people wielding swords or other longer range weapons while wielding a dagger. That's just suicide. Taking equal skill in weaponry into account. In actual combat high chance you will die before you get to your opponent.

For daggers as well as hand to hand combat range is pivotal to get into your advantage. I practiced Wing Chun for a long time. We used a base tactical requirement we call "eat space". Meaning be as close to your opponent so he cannot do any large moves. Be in his face at all times. Overwhelm. It's just that getting there is a problem if your opponent is wielding a weapon with more range.

At any rate, I was mentioning something that could do more damage like chopping my head off. Of course a sword you use as a stabbing weapon and a dagger would more or less have the same impact. Depending on type of sword/dagger and technique used.

We're getting a bit off-topic here, but I agree with almost everything you said, except that daggers are supposed to be useless against armored opponents. Of course, if you try to engage with only the dagger you are probably dead before you reach them. However daggers were pretty good at stabbing through eye-slits and historical martial arts instructions depict them being used for exactly that.

But yes, there's a reason why daggers never made it past sidearms, range is absolutly king in melee encounter and always has been.

It's just that you have no use for them in this game if you don't give them a niche. We can't lose our primary melee weapon in combat, so we don't need backup. We're not confined to akward swings and stabs in narrow corridors, so we can use overly large greatswords and hammers in all circumstances. Daggers don't need to be in games at all if you don't give them anything in which they are special.

But then again, the majority of weapons in warframe is only mastery fodder anyways, so it's not like this is a pressing issue and like I said, even implementing the change for more stealth damage would not change anything, because it didn't when we already had that ;)

[RazerXPrime]

3 minutes ago, W3zeer said:

However daggers were pretty good at stabbing through eye-slits and historical martial arts instructions depict them being used for exactly that.

True, but at that point you've gained a range advantage to be able to do this already. You'd have to pin down your opponent first to be able to use them effectively such as grapling or wrestle them to the ground. There are depictions of this for sure, but that's not to say they were used as a primary combat weapon. I wouldn't want to go up against a full plate opponent with a sword and a backup dagger. I rather have a pick or a mace of some sort.

But yea getting a bit off topic. Moving on 😇

[Yamazuki]

10 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

Covert lethality insta kill was literally the only reason to use daggers until they changed it. But even then mele power creep has rendered that obsolete anyways.

Daggers are capable of dealing damage without relying on finishers/stealth... Covert Lethality only mattered for cheesing through extended endless missions with minimal effort, which isn't even a relevant part of the game.

I have used [and still use] Karyst-P and Okina [Dagger and Dual Dagger] through all content that is actually relevant, including SP. I had zero issues killing armored enemies without stealth or finishers, no bane mods, no priming, no armor stripping, and no buffs beyond arcanes. Meanwhile, something like K-Shildeg even with a Riven under the same conditions fell behind in SP against armored enemies and would do even worse in Disruption. A Dagger stance can provide mobility with the right amount of attackspeed and the forward momentum that DE "fixed" still exists when paired with some things.

People just either don't like their stances, or the usual hive-mind mentality where people don't bother actually trying something out themselves.

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, W3zeer said:

They have poor range, do poor damage

Eh.  Base damage has been quite good at least since the melee stat overhaul.  They were still bad as a class for crits, but Karyst Prime exists now, which is decent.  And they have two solid stances, which is where so much of actual melee weapon effectiveness comes from.

It's true they have low range, but this more than made up for in most situations by their high follow through.  And this makes Reach an even better proportional advantage than it would be anyway by virtue of being a flat bonus.

I'm not saying they're the best.  Honestly, I don't really know where they're at as a class in the hierarchy of weapons.  But they're at least middling.

 

[Tyreaus]

14 hours ago, L3512 said:

At least a traditional type bow offers some mechanical advantage over a dagger hey?

But than again if we look at the 2021 statistics, it's not like single target bows are super common so while they are an option they are also outclassed.

Meanwhile, the Bramma - a bow - exists. Where's the punishment for using an 'improper' weapon there, Bruce? I was promised punishments for using improper weapons, I want my punishments!

[Leqesai]

5 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Eh.  Base damage has been quite good at least since the melee stat overhaul.  They were still bad as a class for crits, but Karyst Prime exists now, which is decent.  And they have two solid stances, which is where so much of actual melee weapon effectiveness comes from.

It's true they have low range, but this more than made up for in most situations by their high follow through.  And this makes Reach an even better proportional advantage than it would be anyway by virtue of being a flat bonus.

I'm not saying they're the best.  Honestly, I don't really know where they're at as a class in the hierarchy of weapons.  But they're at least middling.

 

Just going to throw this in here, but dagger zaws are one of the beast heavy attack weapons in the game. If i am hunting acolytes there is very little reason to use anything else. Outside of the glaive meta there really isnt much that compares to a heavy attack dagger zaw.

[Tiltskillet]

9 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Just going to throw this in here, but dagger zaws are one of the beast heavy attack weapons in the game. If i am hunting acolytes there is very little reason to use anything else. Outside of the glaive meta there really isnt much that compares to a heavy attack dagger zaw.

A zaw over Karyst P because of the exodia slot, I'd assume.   Which one?

 

[L3512]

3 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Meanwhile, the Bramma - a bow - exists. Where's the punishment for using an 'improper' weapon there, Bruce? I was promised punishments for using improper weapons, I want my punishments!

Bramma is simply a delivery device, for a not insubstantial amount of explosives.