So about the melee nerf...

[Krankbert]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb PublikDomain:

the answer to DE's mistakes are for them to not endlessly buff everything over and over again, it's for them to finally decide on a baseline level of power and stick to it. 

Unfortunately deciding on things would require a major change away from their current method of balancing, which is apparently to just release things with completely arbitrary numbers and then look at the complaints.

[Yamazuki]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

Maybe if you're an uber 9 forma 200,000 riven rerolls extreme meta slave you might have seen SOME loss in melee DPS over the last year

The attackspeed nerfs do not actually impact Rivens beyond the way Berserker was nerfed, as you can just get one with attackspeed to replace one of the "fury" mods.

I'm not sure why insults need to be the norm over differing view points. Even if someone was a "meta slave", that isn't relevant. Where was this argument when ranged weapons were allegedly "not viable" despite them dominating usage rates? If you like sub-optimal builds, you do you.

Although, I'm not a "meta slave". A lot of the weapons I use aren't popular, and one isn't a weapon the can really proc slash, not even with the stance. Nikana-Prime is the only 'popular' option I use. I never bothered with the ranged Zaws/Glaives, and I don't like Tonfas and I generally choose stances based on enjoyment rather than effectiveness. This extends to my primary choices, I go for what I enjoy as long as it functions well enough and I ignore secondary weapons to the point the mining drill is displayed on my profile for most used secondary weapon.

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

But I have killed just as much with mindless E key mashing before all these nerfs as I have after them

You're free to be an E masher, but not everyone who plays melee does that. Some stances with mixed attacks and specific abilities results in greater mobility than non-buffed parkour. Although, again, you do you. I don't care if you E mash, in the same way I've never been bothered by people spamming explosives for multiple years now. I never understand why people act as if it is so detrimental to their health if people are allowed to play in their own way.

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

So I literally have no idea how you two are having such a drastic loss of DPS to warrant this thread's existence

I never complained about damage loss, my initial post mentioned a lack of standardized attackspeed and how melee has a fairly wide variance in performance per weapon and then stance in the same way ranged weapons have their wide variance in performance based on the differing types; and that the over-performers should have been nerfed. As for why I replied to you, I was merely posting the patch notes to the patch that you were lying forgetting some of the details. The proper response if it wasn't deliberate dishonesty would have been to apologize for the error.

It's evident you don't actually care for the varied ways of utilizing melee weapons and have a strong bias towards ranged weapons. You think arch-guns need buffs, well, according to my experience, they are absolutely fine and people are just not good at dealing damage, or maybe they're in a different universe and need to move to the right universe, or something. Not that I would be bothered by, nor would I oppose, increasing their damage.

[TARINunit9]

12 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

You're free to be an E masher, but not everyone who plays melee does that. Some stances with mixed attacks and specific abilities results in greater mobility than non-buffed parkour.

No offense, I promise, but I honestly consider you as rare as an albino panda for actually using the melee stances as anything other than 10 free Drain points. But then again:

14 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

As for why I replied to you, I was merely posting the patch notes to the patch that you were lying forgetting some of the details. The proper response if it wasn't deliberate dishonesty would have been to apologize for the error.

Before you continue to accuse me of lying, I direct you to my results. You post patch notes that SAY melee is weaker, and maybe that was the conclusion given by your testing, but this does not hold up in my testing. Melee is just as strong in all observations on my end. This isn't me resorting to dishonesty, this is me discovering we are living in the different sets of physical laws and causal reality. Clearly there is a disconnect that is giving me different results from you and the other guy

Your melee weapons are weaker. Mine are not. I do not know why. I will be taking my leave of this thread now before you search through more of my post history for differences between my reality and yours (apparently Archguns are doing pretty well in your universe)

[schilds]

Melee was overkilling things so bad, that the (substantial but not unreasonable) nerfs only become obvious when you're killing something like SP demos - and in the wrong way, like hitting bursas from their front, Maybe there are still melee weapons that take them down instantly, but it used to be you could slap on almost any melee and take them down instantly.

 

That said, the damage nerfs (gladiator, BR, CO, etc) are not the reason why melee stopped being meta. It was the *range* and line of sight nerfs. Swish swish swish, room dead, and you're already onto the next room without having had to stop.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Personally, I didn't think melee needed to be nerfed back then (well then in the sense there were a few different instances), the changes to buff guns would have been fine. Though I also remember Bramma being really popular and polarising and frequently used back then. I also don't adhere to the idea of "why use X when you can use Y", because in Warframe, I use X a lot because its fun, its different, it sounds cool, it feels cool, it has interesting gimmick or interactions or synergies with another X. Y might be more optimal or faster, or with a higher kill rate, but its also Warframe... half the whole alphabet will complete the mission. 

Of course, I do also acknowledge that a games meta will affect a lot about a players experience, as a game you can play with others, and other factors, including individuals enjoyments and ideas of balance and challenge, so I am also not saying people shouldn't critique or point out what they think is in error in direction. Not every players experience is the same, and people should advocate for changes they think either benefits themselves or the game they wish to engage in. Along those lines though, I still use a lot of melee, and guns. In the games harder content, guns on average feel more viable than they use to, melee does too. Some melee don't feel as effective, (I miss how Glaive Prime felt) but its still effective in killing rooms of Steel Path enemies fast. Meaning the game doesn't seem ruined or worse since. I use to enjoy melee and guns prior to the nerfs and buffs, and I still enjoy melee and guns after. Again though, thats just my personal experience, but at the same time, there don't seem to be a lot of people, who are specifically still bothered by the melee nerfs to a great degree. A lot of people annoyed with AOE sure, but thats not necessarily the same. Prior to melee nerfs, was always a bit of discussion about how some Warframes are just more powerful than others, by a large degree. Still happens now. Ditto conversations around challenge and difficulty. I also mean in the eyes of DE make accomodations and changes. Still valid to express dissatisfaction, opinions etc

Anyway changes will happen that will benefit certain people with certain preferences. Framing something like the 'melee nerfs as a mistake DE should just admit and fix' I don't see getting melee reverted. Like there is venting frustration, and then their are effective ways to try and push for something you want. Might just be my personal experience, but if I am finding Melee still potent in Steel Path and other places, I am sure others will, and the numbers won't show DE melee is in a bad place. (Unless of course their numbers show otherwise, but, as far as I am aware we aren't privy to that info). 

Personally, I'd like DE to give us some better Stances for a few select weapons. Maybe introduce Arcanes, that can help incentivise different melee playstyles? 

[Yamazuki]

6 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

No offense, I promise, but I honestly consider you as rare as an albino panda for actually using the melee stances as anything other than 10 free Drain points.

If it were that rare, then there wouldn't be other people complaining about how bad some stances feel, or how some stances feel unfinished/missing combos. Maybe this was true before, because well, the combo system previously felt horrible to use.

Really, this is mostly just a bunch of generalization with no data to back up anything, and how content creators play the game isn't representative of how others play the game. It isn't any different to how the anti-aoe crowd like to generalize aoe users as incompetent players that are brain-dead.

6 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

You post patch notes that SAY melee is weaker

No... the patch notes are a list of changes that were made... I linked said list of changes because of your initial claim:

8 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

...no? All they nerfed was Berserker Rage and Condition Overload. Everything else remained the same

You stated only Berserker Rage, which you didn't even get the name of the mod correct, and CO changed. All I did was post DE's official patch notes that documented changes to more than Berserker/Fury and CO... and mentioned there were other changes within 2021... while also letting you know how easy it is to confirm whether a change occurred or not as finding that link took significantly less time than posting does. I did not, at all, mention anything about TTK in that post. If it wasn't deliberate dishonesty..............

Also, I already stated one of my main issues is in regards to attack speed, and attack speed does not only impact dps. It impacts the feel of the weapon, and as I said, I actually know how to use multiple stances as an alternative to parkour, and it is dependent on attack speed, more so if the weapon is very slow.

If we must discuss "dps", then I'll just mention one of the changes to reduce damage at later levels. Which was Gladiator mods equipped with Helios/Deconstructor. I was not opposed to the change, and I do not think it needs to be undone. In fact, I think DE needs to prove that it was a "bug" and them not just lying just to nerf melee and actually fix the "bug" entirely. You can equip set effects on ranged Sentinel weapons, which includes increasing weapon dps, and additional shield generation for shield-gate abuse.

[TARINunit9]

3 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

If it wasn't deliberate dishonesty..............

Which it wasn't. That would imply I am trying to trick you, which I'm not. I was basically tilting my head in disbelief. See this face?

This face is many things, but it isn't dishonesty.

And as I said, I found the reason for our disconnect: you and I are clearly living in different realities. I was exaggerating earlier to drive the point home, but the basic disconnect between your line of thinking and mine should be obvious:

You are living in a perception of reality where melee has been given a steady stream of clearly-communicated, impactful nerfs over the last three years.

I am living in a perception of reality where about four, maybe five melee mods have been given any nerfs at all, and they are nerfs so meaningless, that even combined they are only BARELY impactful. And by far the most notable ones were Berserker Fury and Condition Overload

We are literally, LITERALLY, not seeing the same evidence, the same experiments, or the same results. You are seeing blue and I am seeing red.

[Yamazuki]

3 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Which it wasn't. That would imply I am trying to trick you, which I'm not. I was basically tilting my head in disbelief. See this face?

No, it would 'imply' that you intentionally posted a factually incorrect statement, which is known as lying... being dishonest, etc. Lying/dishonesty is not specifically for the purpose of 'tricking' anyone, it could be simply trolling out of boredom. It doesn't take much to know some people here find pleasure in seeing others upset or just wasting some time harmlessly.

4 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

We are literally, LITERALLY, not seeing the same evidence, the same experiments, or the same results. You are seeing blue and I am seeing red.

Well, I would imagine it's difficult to see something you refuse to look at.

-You: OP is a liar, DE only ever changed two mods!

-ME: Here's DE's official documentation that shows multiple changes.

The severity of those changes are not relevant to my point. My point was that the changes happened. I didn't mention whether the changes impacted ttk, or not. You are more than welcome to go back and read the first response to you, you'll see all I did was mention the changes happened, and that it wasn't the only time that year DE had a patch to nerf melee without stating whether it was effective or not, or whether it impacted ttk or not... If you are able to find within that response where I said DE obliterated my ttk then I'll apologize for having such subpar memory.

Otherwise, we should probably not continue the hijacking of this thread with our lovely flirting.

[TARINunit9]

44 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

No, it would 'imply' that you intentionally posted a factually incorrect statement, which is known as lying... being dishonest, etc. Lying/dishonesty is not specifically for the purpose of 'tricking' anyone, it could be simply trolling out of boredom. It doesn't take much to know some people here find pleasure in seeing others upset or just wasting some time harmlessly.

Well, I would imagine it's difficult to see something you refuse to look at.

-You: OP is a liar, DE only ever changed two mods!

-ME: Here's DE's official documentation that shows multiple changes.

I admit I was wrong about the number of mods. You corrected me.
I do not believe the severity of the changes is any larger with the corrected number of mods. Which is a point I believe to be relevant to the thread: OP's assertions in the top post are so ridiculously exaggerated as to be completely unhelpful to anyone who would actually want melee buffed

As for any other points we were making:

46 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

Otherwise, we should probably not continue the hijacking of this thread with our lovely flirting.

Much agreed. Have a nice evening

[Traumtulpe]

20 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Either you're gaslighting me or someone gaslit you, because they haven't changed melee in months. Melee's effectiveness over the last five years is down by like... 5% at most. Seriously, melee nerfed by 97%? What weird Nelson Mandela/Bernstein Bears alternate universe did you accidentally hop out of?

Let me substantiate my "3% damage left" claim:

Broken Bull, the previous meta-combo, had a 400% modifier on every attack, now it's 100% on it's first hits. So there you lost 75% damage.

Before the combo rework, you could easily (really easily) get between 3x and 5x combo, so you'd deal 300-500% damage. If I recall correctly, the base damage increase to Heavy Blades (which was supposed to compensate) was significantly below average, at about 1.5x. So you lost another 50% damage (or more).

Blood Rush going from 60% to 40%, Gladiator statstick (Deconstructor) getting deleted (-30% per combo), Berserker getting replaced by Primed Fury, Condition Overload going from 120% to 80%, half of all procs getting deleted from stances represents another -75% damage (at the very least).

100x0.25x0.5x0.25,right? And don'tell me losing 550% crit means you deal 5% less damage.

 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb darkshadowslaymaster:

Guns rule, melee drools

What?!
guns have to be pimped a lot and it depends extremely on warframe/build. + top arcanes is usually mandatory.

so what are you talking about again...?

[Grommile]

20 hours ago, mycroft_ said:

Explosions can hurt you around a corner or through a thin wall IR

If the wall can survive the explosion, the explosion probably can't hurt you through it.

[TARINunit9]

3 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

 

Before the combo rework, you could easily (really easily) get between 3x and 5x combo, so you'd deal 300-500% damage. If I recall correctly, the base damage increase to Heavy Blades (which was supposed to compensate) was significantly below average, at about 1.5x. So you lost another 50% damage (or more).

You're going back that far?

You do know that melee's strongest, most overpowered band ultra-meta state ever seen by man, the era where melee was so obscenely strong you could clear Steel Path using only the melee button... took place AFTER that rework, right?

[Leqesai]

30 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

You're going back that far?

You do know that melee's strongest, most overpowered band ultra-meta state ever seen by man, the era where melee was so obscenely strong you could clear Steel Path using only the melee button... took place AFTER that rework, right?

Lets also not forget that they added heavy attacks to melee which lead to the current melee meta which is just as strong if not stronger than melee ever was prior to heavy attacks and whatever nerfs occurred. 

 

[Traumtulpe]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

[...]

I don't even know what you are trying to say, but you can still clear the Steel Path with just the melee attack button. Not because melee is OP, mind you, but because you're literally invincible.

[TARINunit9]

8 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I don't even know what you are trying to say

That melee 2.9 back in 2019 wasn't a nerf, it made melee stronger across the board. The only weapon that didn't get its base damage tripled (or better) was the Galatine Prime, which got its crit stats boosted instead, more than making up for the change to Combo Counter regardless of weapon

These "nerfs" you're so sore about haven't nerfed anything. They were stacked with so many buffs that DE had to introduce the Kuva Brianna, Kuva Zaar, and Galvanized Mods just to make guns even pretend to keep up

[Traumtulpe]

8 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

The only weapon that didn't get its base damage tripled (or better) was the Galatine Prime

Why do you keep lying? Just read the damn patch notes. You've been told you're just wrong many times already.

From the Wiki:

Quote

Update 26.0 (2019-10-31), Gram Prime

• Damage increased from 180 to 300.
• Range increased from 1.45 to 2.9.
• Slam Attack increased from 180 to 900.
• Slide Attack increased from 360 to 600.
• Parry Angle set to 55.
• Follow Through decreased from 0.9 to 0.6.

That's x1.66 damage, not >300%. But the real kicker is the nerf to follow through, before you could hit 5 enemies, and the fifth would still take 65% damage. Now that enemy takes 13% damage.

[TARINunit9]

3 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Why do you keep lying? Just read the damn patch notes. You've been told you're just wrong many times already.

From the Wiki:

That's x1.66 damage, not >300%. But the real kicker is the nerf to follow through, before you could hit 5 enemies, and the fifth would still take 65% damage. Now that enemy takes 13% damage.

If your nitpicking me this hard that I forgot one additional weapon (Gram Prime in addition to the Galatine Prime) out of One Hundred and Seventy Weapons for which I was correct, I think you're missing the forest for the trees

Remember, these minor "nerfs" (because the Galatine and Gram still got damage buffs, just not AS big buffs as everything else got) still didn't prevent Heavy Blades from becoming the most powerful weapons in the game by a country mile within two years. THE meta when Steel Path first dropped was pure 100% melee. That was AFTER the patch notes you are slinging at me. Because seriously, follow through? You're going to say melee was ruined because the follow through on the fifth enemy was nerfed? It's rare to hit three enemies in a melee swing, let alone hitting five enemies so often that the fifth one is still alive from nerfed follow through

You wanna accuse someone of lying? Stop deluding yourself about how good melee was and still is. Gram Prime and Galatine Prime were the strongest weapons in the game in 2018, they were still the strongest in 2019 after the rework, and they are still virtually the same strength right now with the only real change being to Condition Overload. You are making a mountain out of a molehill in every sense

[Venus-Venera]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb darkshadowslaymaster:

Swords might be cooler to some but I prefer practicality and functionality over style. Of course yeah warframe usually has melee weapons being stronger but that just doesn’t make sense so I ignore it 

mele are only stronger at the beginning.
later many difficulties like low ammo or low damage because of high armor or whatever will be solved. and any mele stuff can never match aoe gun with max range.
example would be harrow with something like kuva zarr/bramma. here I have crit arcane+crit from skill, fast reload and fast attack speed. both weapons only do orange/red crits + slash + max range. neither stropha heavy attack build nor kronen prime can keep up here.

[TheLexiConArtist]

On 2022-06-10 at 5:40 PM, Tiltskillet said:

Of course, that mistake just built on earlier mistakes like Primed Firestorm and Primed Sure Footed and some nonsensical weapon balancing.

On 2022-06-10 at 5:58 PM, Leqesai said:

DE need to get off their high horse and realize the community knows what they're talking about here. The AOE meta is very much in need of refinement. 
Easy solutions too:

1: Instituted global LOS restrictions on AOE abilities and weapons (why isn't this consistent I have no idea...)
2: Either reduce the effectiveness of Primed Surefooted to 90% or give its stagger protection a cooldown (you can block 1 stagger every X seconds)

Hard no. The self-damage removal was the source of AOE overwhelming, Primed Sure Footed is only one way of eliminating the lipservice 'counterbalance drawback' that replaced it, out of several.

Funny how the Tonkor Meta history repeated itself after refusing to actually learn from it, isn't it?

That said, given AI logic doesn't apply self damage to compensate AI dumbness, the Celestial Twin strat would still need a targeted extra change to address it even if real risk was reinstated for the general usage.

On 2022-06-10 at 8:58 PM, Tiltskillet said:

Well, for the same reason that barriers have no impact whatsoever on AoE right now.   Because it's a game, and RL considerations are secondary.

But if the inherent ability of AoE weapons to ignore LoS was removed, I wouldn't want that potential deleted entirely.  I'd just want them to have to mod for it, same as most other weapons do.

Friendly reminder that DE have been steadily removing/preventing the ability for Punch Through to Punch Through things where you might choose to specifically mod it to do so.

Another reason that direct-fire weapons are unable to compete. One impenetrable shield boi can be an unreasonable nuisance, but indirect fire still doesn't care.

On 2022-06-11 at 4:38 AM, Krankbert said:

The only important nerf is the first line, "cannot stack with Fury". It's kind of hilarious how you lash out, and yet completely ignore that and instead focus on irrelevant trivialities like the opportunity of maybe saving a Forma by using the mod deranked.

The 'on kill' trigger combined with the duration being slashed is definitely important. Can't get your initial speed going without the kill, and that stack can feasibly drop off much easier between shorter duration and needing the next actual kill to refresh.
Going back to base speed is the worst feeling, and if you're at the point where you're being pushed for output, dropping the Zerk stack is terminal.

Zerk Fury is worthless if you have Primed Fury and a bit of drain to spare (which you often will, from the extra Stance bonus, compared to gunplay). And that's just exclusively the mechanism of the mod itself, not counting the stacking behaviour changes with other speed modifiers.

20 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

And don'tell me losing 550% crit means you deal 5% less damage.

Not 5% (unless you somehow boast +10000% crit chance before it), but crit chance is always a weak stat to stack, to be fair. It'll never even equate its proportional gain, more or less depending on the multiplier.

 

Still, melee seems fine to me. A bad melee is still leagues more usable than a bad gun, judging by the Hespar and the Alternox as I was manually levelling them via (solo) combat as I do for the first run of any item prior to Forma.

I think you're conflating "<x> is not as overbalanced as <y>" with "<x> is underbalanced". We all know that AOE spam is a plague, but melee still performs well enough.

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Hard no. The self-damage removal was the source of AOE overwhelming, Primed Sure Footed is only one way of eliminating the lipservice 'counterbalance drawback' that replaced it, out of several.

Funny how the Tonkor Meta history repeated itself after refusing to actually learn from it, isn't it?

That said, given AI logic doesn't apply self damage to compensate AI dumbness, the Celestial Twin strat would still need a targeted extra change to address it even if real risk was reinstated for the general usage.

I should have also specified that there should be no 100% resist to self-stagger from any source (ability, mod etc.)

The fact that it is so easy to shut down the only downside to the AOE meta weapons with one mod or many status-blocking abilities, is part of the problem. Self-damage would certainly be one solution to the issue but I think it is far less likely they return to self-damage than it is for them to eliminate 100% stagger resist on self-stagger. Preventing stagger from enemy attacks is one thing but preventing it on yourself? This should have been corrected a long time ago but DE has, for some reason, let the AOE meta grow like wildfire to the point we're at now. Any semblance of balance in the game is thrown way out of whack by two primary issues:

1: AOE meta
2: Grineer armor scaling with their EHP when compared to other factions. While they are scaled pretty well for the star chart the issue of Grineer's imbalanced armor scaling becomes much more obvious in Steel Path or endurance gameplay. I'm definitely not calling for a "make them squishier" type thing, but I am definitely saying the armor system we currently have scales terribly compared to shields/health. I say give all Grineer a set amount of damage reduction that is active while they have armor (say 80-90%) and bump up their health values to scale at 2 or 3x the current rate. The damage reduction while they have armor would be directly proportionate to the amount of armor they have left, which would make even partial armor-stripping methods useful when compared to the dopey current system. Currently removing 90% armor from a Steel Path grineer results in them still having like 80% damage reduction. So everyone shoots for 100% armor removal because anything less than 100% is barely a dent in their overall EHP.

[Jarriaga]

On 2022-06-10 at 10:43 AM, PublikDomain said:

Remember when DE buffed melee damage like crazy, and did nothing for guns? And people stopped using their guns, just max range melee macro spam walking through SP? Remember when DE buffed gun damage like crazy to make up for it, and it only made AoE that much more powerful than single-target and did nothing for Amps and Archguns? Endless buffs have never worked. They've always been impractical. They've always been a mistake. If you want all weapon types to be worth using, the answer isn't continuing this endless game of catch-up chasing buffs on top of buffs on top of buffs. It's the opposite, the answer to DE's mistakes are for them to not endlessly buff everything over and over again, it's for them to finally decide on a baseline level of power and stick to it. And practically speaking, the easiest way to do that is by nerfing the few outliers breaking the formula.

Prepare to be told you just want to remove "fun" from the game and turn WF into Dark Souls.

[Uhkretor]

On 2022-06-10 at 10:37 PM, WT240 said:

Well sir, as a new lowbie with a Braton (24, 24, plink, plink, 24, plink) and not so great mods, it takes me almost a full 60 (much more in the POE) round mag to kill one baddy! Do you have any idea how long that takes to kill say, 8 bad guys running at me? I just give up and take off spinning to win. It's the only damage I have at all.

... New players are supposed to repeat previously completed missions in order to get the mods that aren't dropped by enemies from the intended planetary range of, you know... new players...

... The entire game practically revolves in that very system, just like most of the old (and some of the more recent) MMOs in which you have to grind enemies for that 0.00000001% chance of getting better gear. Good thing is, you don't have to be in constant lookout for gankers in Warframe, nor the percentages being that low either...

[Traumtulpe]

4 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

but crit chance is always a weak stat to stack

This is dead wrong. Crit is one of the few things bypassing most versions of DE's damage attenuation (really just a DPS cap in many cases). More crit is always better, more fire rate can make you deal LESS DPS. And up to 200% crit (absolute), critical hit chance is actually a very good stat to stack regardless. Higher if your weapon has very high (35-50%) base crit.

8 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

If your nitpicking me this hard that I forgot one additional weapon (Gram Prime in addition to the Galatine Prime) out of One Hundred and Seventy Weapons for which I was correct, I think you're missing the forest for the trees

I was specifically and explicitly talking about Heavy Blades. There aren't 170 Heavy Blades in the game. so whatever you think you're saying, it's meaningless.

I'm not trying to be mean here, but you have proven time and time again, that you do not read patch notes, do not understand the posts you respond to, and cannot tell a 97% nerf from a 5% nerf. I have no further business talking to you, have a nice day.

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

This is dead wrong. Crit is one of the few things bypassing most versions of DE's damage attenuation (really just a DPS cap in many cases). More crit is always better, more fire rate can make you deal LESS DPS.

Statistically a weak stat to stack. Deliberately obfuscated mechanics and their loopholes notwithstanding.

Even in the case of the arcane shenanigans that are those 'attenuation' mechanisms, could you not also get better outcome from the crit multiplier than the crit chance, assuming an equal proportional stat gain? Genuine question, as I've not gone into efforts to break those obfuscations.