So about the melee nerf...

[mycroft_]

41 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

1: Instituted global LOS restrictions on AOE abilities and weapons (why isn't this consistent I have no idea...)

This would be bad, some abilities *need* to go through without LOS

Weapons too. Explosions can hurt you around a corner or through a thin wall IRL, why not in Warframe?

Gentle nerfs to the most egregious offenders would be better than a massive blanket nerf.

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, mycroft_ said:

This would be bad, some abilities *need* to go through without LOS

Weapons too. Explosions can hurt you around a corner or through a thin wall IRL, why not in Warframe?

Gentle nerfs to the most egregious offenders would be better than a massive blanket nerf.

Thin walls for sure I agree but being able to kill enemies in another room protected by space metal? I don't know about that.

And there are definitely a few exceptions that make logical sense as far as abilities go. Spores is one.

[Wolfdoggie]

We just need a mod that coats our melee weapon in gunpowder and makes our hits explode for 10-13 radius and hurls us backwards (if no Primed Sure Footed or Cautious Swing)

[Jylon]

there is nothing wrong with  melee weapons in most of the game's content and areas of high difficulty if one has the right mods (yes, rivens also, but with some weps not necessary to have to still be great), this i can definitely attest to.  i do miss the time when gladiator mods on using helios deconstructor giving melee a boost and have red crits constantly rain, making steel path instamurders constantly  ;o

[Silligoose]

4 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Remember when DE nerfed melee damage (and crit, and procs, and...) like crazy, and buffed guns? I said at the time that this was a bad idea, that (combo) melee was overnerfed, and that the Kuva Bramma would replace melee as the meta.

...Isn't the game in a much worse state today, as a result? It seems obvious to me. Melee? I'm never using it anymore. Completely dead as far as I'm concerned. Why be stuck in clunky animation locks for low damage in a small area (and, depending on the weapon, awful follow through), when you can blast half the map with powerful explosive weapons, through walls no less?

People said melee was press E to win, but I had a lot of fun using it as effectively as I could. Today I don't even see enemies anymore. I just see red marks on the map while I bullet jump through the level and dispense rockets in their general direction. And I bought the smoke color palette for it's pure black color - because with normal coloring, I literally couldn't even see where I was going from the explosions.

Quite some time has passed, can we just admit DE made a mistake and bring melee back (and fix all the bugs it has)? It was fun being a ninja in space, back then.

Melee suffers is the same issue single target weapons suffer: Enemies are too squishy at endgame and most of the damage and value is lost to overkill.

Radial weapons on the other hand, which lacks the potential DPS of either melee or or single target weapons on single target of equal tier, is powerful enough to take care of fodder enemies in an area and given the current player damage output potential vs enemies within encouraged content, including SP, pretty much all enemies are regulated to fodder.

If DE fixes that balance at endgame, I believe the game would be in a healthier state. Make no mistake, the enemy durability vs potential player weapon damage output isn't the only imbalance that requires addressing, but it would be a start.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

Topics like these cement my beliefs that people just want to complain to complain. 

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, mycroft_ said:

This would be bad, some abilities *need* to go through without LOS
 

Some do, certainly.  Although the ones I can think of offhand are not primarily direct damage dealers.

 

2 hours ago, mycroft_ said:

Weapons too. Explosions can hurt you around a corner or through a thin wall IRL, why not in Warframe?

Well, for the same reason that barriers have no impact whatsoever on AoE right now.   Because it's a game, and RL considerations are secondary.

But if the inherent ability of AoE weapons to ignore LoS was removed, I wouldn't want that potential deleted entirely.  I'd just want them to have to mod for it, same as most other weapons do.

[TARINunit9]

5 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Remember when DE nerfed melee damage (and crit, and procs, and...) like crazy, and buffed guns? 

...no? All they nerfed was Berserker Rage and Condition Overload. Everything else remained the same

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

My attack speed/crit damage rivens never cared about that 5% melee nerf lol.

[Traumtulpe]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

...no? All they nerfed was Berserker Rage and Condition Overload. Everything else remained the same

Come on, you can't be that forgetful. Blood Rush? Gladiator set? All those deleted procs? Stealth multiplier from certain combos?

If you go back further: Build-in Primed Sure Footed? Range? Follow through? LoS? Combo affecting regular attacks? Stances that got butchered (like Broken Bull being nerfed to 25%)?

And I'm probably forgetting things. The most recent changes alone nerfed melee by approximately 80-75%. You all can't be THAT bad at math, right?

Take for example Heavy Blades (they really got the short end of the stick), once the meta, they got nerfed by roughly 75% (Blood Rush etc.) x 50% (combo) x 75% (Broken Bull). So there is about 3% of the old damage left. Once upon a time, the best melee in the game with the most expensive Rivens was a Heavy Blade - they have since been completely abandoned as a result of these nerfs.

[WT240]

Well sir, as a new lowbie with a Braton (24, 24, plink, plink, 24, plink) and not so great mods, it takes me almost a full 60 (much more in the POE) round mag to kill one baddy! Do you have any idea how long that takes to kill say, 8 bad guys running at me? I just give up and take off spinning to win. It's the only damage I have at all.

[trst]

21 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Come on, you can't be that forgetful. Blood Rush? Gladiator set? All those deleted procs? Stealth multiplier from certain combos?

If you go back further: Build-in Primed Sure Footed? Range? Follow through? LoS? Combo affecting regular attacks? Stances that got butchered (like Broken Bull being nerfed to 25%)?

And I'm probably forgetting things. The most recent changes alone nerfed melee by approximately 80-75%. You all can't be THAT bad at math, right?

Take for example Heavy Blades (they really got the short end of the stick), once the meta, they got nerfed by roughly 75% (Blood Rush etc.) x 50% (combo) x 75% (Broken Bull). So there is about 3% of the old damage left. Once upon a time, the best melee in the game with the most expensive Rivens was a Heavy Blade - they have since been completely abandoned as a result of these nerfs.

And yet the fact that Heavy Blades are still viable even in SP just shows how overpowered melee mods were (and arguably still are).

The nerfs did nothing but make some melee numbers smaller while enemy values are still too small relative to them.

[Traumtulpe]

3 minutes ago, trst said:

And yet the fact that Heavy Blades are still viable even in SP just shows how overpowered melee mods were

It sure was overpowered, but viable is relative. Yes, you can still kill Steel Path enemies with it - albeit much, much slower than with an explosive weapon. It's ineffective, it pales in comparison with the competition. That's kinda stretching the meaning of viable, I'd call it a handicap.

[trst]

1 minute ago, Traumtulpe said:

It sure was overpowered, but viable is relative. Yes, you can still kill Steel Path enemies with it - albeit much, much slower than with an explosive weapon. It's ineffective, it pales in comparison with the competition. That's kinda stretching the meaning of viable, I'd call it a handicap.

And comparing anything to the overperforming outliers both isn't a valid comparison and greatly distorts the meaning of viable. Just because some weapons let you full clear a room in a few shots at the floor doesn't mean every weapon needs to or should be at that level.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

bring back self damage: let's see how eager people are to trigger spam their Zarrs and Bramma's then!

we have shield gating now, so you'd be allowed to do it once without killing yourself.

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

And I'm probably forgetting things. The most recent changes alone nerfed melee by approximately 80-75%. You all can't be THAT bad at math, right?

Take for example Heavy Blades (they really got the short end of the stick), once the meta, they got nerfed by roughly 75% (Blood Rush etc.) x 50% (combo) x 75% (Broken Bull). So there is about 3% of the old damage left. Once upon a time, the best melee in the game with the most expensive Rivens was a Heavy Blade - they have since been completely abandoned as a result of these nerfs.

Either you're gaslighting me or someone gaslit you, because they haven't changed melee in months. Melee's effectiveness over the last five years is down by like... 5% at most. Seriously, melee nerfed by 97%? What weird Nelson Mandela/Bernstein Bears alternate universe did you accidentally hop out of?

[Venus-Venera]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb WT240:

Well sir, as a new lowbie with a Braton (24, 24, plink, plink, 24, plink) and not so great mods, it takes me almost a full 60 (much more in the POE) round mag to kill one baddy! Do you have any idea how long that takes to kill say, 8 bad guys running at me? I just give up and take off spinning to win. It's the only damage I have at all.

Yes. this is also a problem when ammo runs out. and if you run with mele, then you also get a full load of damage from ranged. So you have to heal yourself somehow, which is a big problem for beginners.
I also pimped and maxed mk1-braton. even with top mods it has miserable performance in arbitrations.

[Yamazuki]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

Either you're gaslighting me or someone gaslit you, because they haven't changed melee in months. Melee's effectiveness over the last five years is down by like... 5% at most. Seriously, melee nerfed by 97%? What weird Nelson Mandela/Bernstein Bears alternate universe did you accidentally hop out of?

They never said melee was nerfed within the last few months, and it takes less than 1 minute to find out part of what they're talking about:

That was the patch witch the CO and Berserker nerf, and as you can see, they were not the only changes for that patch. This was not the only patch that nerfed melee for that [last] year either. 

The Wiki has patch history for mods at the bottom of pages, you just quickly type any mod in your browser and click wiki page scroll down, click a couple links, quick information. Better than relying on memory and insisting someone is lying when you're misremembering.

[L3512]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

Either you're gaslighting me or someone gaslit you, because they haven't changed melee in months. Melee's effectiveness over the last five years is down by like... 5% at most.

This is dishonest, simple math shows that the CO and BR nerfs affected melee weapons by 30-50%. The berserker change was dumb and just made things more tedious, not stacking with fury is fine. The apparent gladiator Helios not intented (DE are lying to you here.) nerf was also stupid and hypocritical (vigilante set mods say hi.).

The glaive heavy attack wind up speed nerf is hilarious because at native speed the animation looks like dogS#&$, but Muh animations was the reason for beserker nerfs.

The changes to stances that were not really documented apart from the removal of forced impact for stagger.

Melee is still powerful despite all that, it is just simply not worth using for most content unless you want heavy attack burst DPS.

[TARINunit9]

34 minutes ago, L3512 said:

This is dishonest, simple math shows that the CO and BR nerfs affected melee weapons by 30-50%. The berserker change was dumb and just made things more tedious, not stacking with fury is fine. The apparent gladiator Helios not intented (DE are lying to you here.) nerf was also stupid and hypocritical (vigilante set mods say hi.).

OK, I was accusing you of exaggerating, not being a hypocrite, and I am continuing to do so for one simple reason:

I have had absolutely ZERO loss in DPS before and after the nerfs you and @Yamazukiare talking about. So I literally have no idea how you two are having such a drastic loss of DPS to warrant this thread's existence

Berserker Rush nerfed by going from "on crit" to "on kill"? It wasn't hard to get that first kill in the first place. Removal of forced stagger? Coulda fooled me, every single melee weapon I've used over the last year has tons of forced stagger. Lower damage? Hahahahaha!! Good joke.

Maybe if you're an uber 9 forma 200,000 riven rerolls extreme meta slave you might have seen SOME loss in melee DPS over the last year. But I have killed just as much with mindless E key mashing before all these nerfs as I have after them

[Lutesque]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Topics like these cement my beliefs that people just want to complain to complain. 

Complaining is Alot Fun...

But even you have to admit Warframe makes it entirely way too easy....

Unless you can prove that all the Complainers are Wrong.... Maybe ?

4 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Come on, you can't be that forgetful. Blood Rush? Gladiator set? All those deleted procs? Stealth multiplier from certain combos?

The thing is I don't know exactly which Nerf you talking about.... The one from the Old Blood Update or the one from The Arsenal Divide Update ?

4 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Take for example Heavy Blades (they really got the short end of the stick), once the meta, they got nerfed by roughly 75% (Blood Rush etc.) x 50% (combo) x 75% (Broken Bull). So there is about 3% of the old damage left. Once upon a time, the best melee in the game with the most expensive Rivens was a Heavy Blade - they have since been completely abandoned as a result of these nerfs

Heavy Blades still offer some of the Highest Heavy Attack Damage.... The only Problem is.... No Guaranteed Slash Proc.... You would Need Riven to get Slash on your Heavy Attack Consistently... Which is important because of the Combo Draining....

4 hours ago, WT240 said:

Well sir, as a new lowbie with a Braton (24, 24, plink, plink, 24, plink) and not so great mods, it takes me almost a full 60 (much more in the POE) round mag to kill one baddy! Do you have any idea how long that takes to kill say, 8 bad guys running at me? I just give up and take off spinning to win. It's the only damage I have at all.

Pretty much.... After Phobos The Star Chart pretty much becomes Melee Only....

Especially with this Overguard Garbage....

48 minutes ago, L3512 said:

The glaive heavy attack wind up speed nerf is hilarious because at native speed the animation looks like dogS#&$, but Muh animations was the reason for beserker nerfs.

This was Nerfed because of People Accidentally Throwing the Glaive when trying To Do Combos....

However since that Issue Still Persists.... I'm going to say you probably do have a Point There....

Not that it Matters....  Is there a Reason you wouldn't be using Killing Blow and Amalgam Organ Shatter for the 120% Heavy Attack Wind Up speed ? 👀

 

[L3512]

37 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

OK, I was accusing you of exaggerating, not being a hypocrite, and I am continuing to do so for one simple reason:

I have had absolutely ZERO loss in DPS before and after the nerfs you and @Yamazukiare talking about. So I literally have no idea how you two are having such a drastic loss of DPS to warrant this thread's existence

Berserker Rush nerfed by going from "on crit" to "on kill"? It wasn't hard to get that first kill in the first place. Removal of forced stagger? Coulda fooled me, every single melee weapon I've used over the last year has tons of forced stagger. Lower damage? Hahahahaha!! Good joke.

Maybe if you're an uber 9 forma 200,000 riven rerolls extreme meta slave you might have seen SOME loss in melee DPS over the last year. But I have killed just as much with mindless E key mashing before all these nerfs as I have after them

Are you legit drunk posting?

You hadn't accused me of anything and the hypocrite comment was about DE. Berserker fury, formally called berserker and never berserker rush has infact been nerfed in several ways.

Berserker is changing from:
+30% Attack Speed (Max 75%) for 24s on Critical Hit

To:
Berserker Fury, cannot stack with Fury.
On Melee Kill: +35% Attack Speed (Max 70%) for 10s. Stacks up to 2x.

Max speed, duration and the trigger condition was nerfed, the mod now does not reach max attack speed unless it is max rank unlike in the past where you could achieve 75% attack speed with deranked mods.

CO lost a cool 40% damage per status effect so yes it is very clearly lower damage. Even your meta slave comment is ignorant because the best melee weapons still work very well because they had overkill to spare.

[TARINunit9]

54 minutes ago, L3512 said:

Are you legit drunk posting?

No. I fully suspect we exist in different universes, because even though you're posting technically correct numbers, my results have been completely different from yours.

Condition Overload changed from:
I whip out my melee, I press E for about 2 seconds, and whatever I was standing next to dies

To:
I whip out my melee, I press E for about 2 seconds, and whatever I was standing next to dies

It doesn't take any longer to kill things. It just doesn't. It maybe takes one more swing but with Berserker Fury still being super powerful that extra swing is maybe 0.3 seconds max, and once I hit the ceiling that 0.3 seconds does NOT add up over time

[Pakaku]

12 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Are we really pretending that explosives aren't >>>> melee? Why? What do you gain from arguing that black is white?

AoE buff != Melee nerf

[Krankbert]

vor einer Stunde schrieb L3512:

Are you legit drunk posting?

You hadn't accused me of anything and the hypocrite comment was about DE. Berserker fury, formally called berserker and never berserker rush has infact been nerfed in several ways.

Berserker is changing from:
+30% Attack Speed (Max 75%) for 24s on Critical Hit

To:
Berserker Fury, cannot stack with Fury.
On Melee Kill: +35% Attack Speed (Max 70%) for 10s. Stacks up to 2x.

Max speed, duration and the trigger condition was nerfed, the mod now does not reach max attack speed unless it is max rank unlike in the past where you could achieve 75% attack speed with deranked mods.

The only important nerf is the first line, "cannot stack with Fury". It's kind of hilarious how you lash out, and yet completely ignore that and instead focus on irrelevant trivialities like the opportunity of maybe saving a Forma by using the mod deranked.