So about the melee nerf...

[Traumtulpe]

Remember when DE nerfed melee damage (and crit, and procs, and...) like crazy, and buffed guns? I said at the time that this was a bad idea, that (combo) melee was overnerfed, and that the Kuva Bramma would replace melee as the meta.

...Isn't the game in a much worse state today, as a result? It seems obvious to me. Melee? I'm never using it anymore. Completely dead as far as I'm concerned. Why be stuck in clunky animation locks for low damage in a small area (and, depending on the weapon, awful follow through), when you can blast half the map with powerful explosive weapons, through walls no less?

People said melee was press E to win, but I had a lot of fun using it as effectively as I could. Today I don't even see enemies anymore. I just see red marks on the map while I bullet jump through the level and dispense rockets in their general direction. And I bought the smoke color palette for it's pure black color - because with normal coloring, I literally couldn't even see where I was going from the explosions.

Quite some time has passed, can we just admit DE made a mistake and bring melee back (and fix all the bugs it has)? It was fun being a ninja in space, back then.

[Crevab]

Melee is fine

[Traumtulpe]

2 minutes ago, Crevab said:

Melee is fine

Right, all those Wukongs unequip their Primary weapon so both the clone and they can melee at the same time... oh wait, it's the opposite.

[PublikDomain]

Remember when DE buffed melee damage like crazy, and did nothing for guns? And people stopped using their guns, just max range melee macro spam walking through SP? Remember when DE buffed gun damage like crazy to make up for it, and it only made AoE that much more powerful than single-target and did nothing for Amps and Archguns? Endless buffs have never worked. They've always been impractical. They've always been a mistake. If you want all weapon types to be worth using, the answer isn't continuing this endless game of catch-up chasing buffs on top of buffs on top of buffs. It's the opposite, the answer to DE's mistakes are for them to not endlessly buff everything over and over again, it's for them to finally decide on a baseline level of power and stick to it. And practically speaking, the easiest way to do that is by nerfing the few outliers breaking the formula.

[TeaHands]

3 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

It's the opposite, the answer to DE's mistakes are for them to not endlessly buff everything over and over again, it's for them to finally decide on a baseline level of power and stick to it.

Ok, we've heard your feedback. And we're gonna make it right......

Introducing Umbral Firestorm and Umbral Munitions!!! Coming to an Arbiter of Hexis Vendor near you.

[Slayer-.]

So about the melee nerf...

No, did we get a melee nerf, oh right melee is fine still. 

 

[Traumtulpe]

Are we really pretending that explosives aren't >>>> melee? Why? What do you gain from arguing that black is white?

[Yamazuki]

Not sure what world you live in, but even before the nerfs people were already using K-Bramma/aoe. K-Bramma was actually nerfed before that point and people didn't stop using it.

Most people don't sit in endless missions to deal with high/maxed enemies. Endurance runs is where the whining came from. Kuva Nukor even got nerfed to lower its priming potential, and priming is a waste of time even for just standard SP level ranges.

DE even stated it wasn't an 'issue' for a lot of people, and the problem pops up at "late game" and "high level" enemies while mentioning Steel Path multiple times., and we all know by Steel Path they weren't referring to non-endurance situations.

Wukong was also already popular before the changes, and his Iron Staff/Melee in general was already being ignored before.

The issue with melee also comes from the varied performance between stances. All of melee gets nerfed despite only an extremely small selection of them ever even being used. I would have preferred seeing the weapons/stances being used all the time nerfed. Afterall, when K-Bramma was being spammed, only it got nerfed, not every single aoe weapon.

The same issue popped up when they nerfed Fury and Berserker, some weapons are insanely slow without both and DE never standardized attack speed... but well, strong performers get away with less damage mods, which means the rest also has to take a nerf.

[Numerikuu]

30 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Remember when DE buffed melee damage like crazy, and did nothing for guns? And people stopped using their guns, just max range melee macro spam walking through SP? Remember when DE buffed gun damage like crazy to make up for it, and it only made AoE that much more powerful than single-target and did nothing for Amps and Archguns? Endless buffs have never worked. They've always been impractical. They've always been a mistake. If you want all weapon types to be worth using, the answer isn't continuing this endless game of catch-up chasing buffs on top of buffs on top of buffs. It's the opposite, the answer to DE's mistakes are for them to not endlessly buff everything over and over again, it's for them to finally decide on a baseline level of power and stick to it. And practically speaking, the easiest way to do that is by nerfing the few outliers breaking the formula.

(Boy I wish)

[CodeVauban]

hace 32 minutos, Traumtulpe dijo:

Right, all those Wukongs unequip their Primary weapon so both the clone and they can melee at the same time... oh wait, it's the opposite.

You seem to be ignoring the reason as to why people do this. His 1 has really bad IA, it's even worse when he's trying to melee stuff because he often won't even kill enemies a lot of the time. The clone can't even use heavy attacks, something you'd much prefer if you use gunblades a lot.

So yeah, people stick to primary weapon wukong because unlike melee wukong it actually works.

[quxier]

53 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Remember when DE nerfed melee damage (and crit, and procs, and...) like crazy

Wait, what? Have they done it in the last updates (Angel of Zariman or Echoes of Zariman)? If not I don't remember any "crazy" nerfs. I remember huge buffs. Like my Sarpa had like tiny bit of crit & status. Old sarpa could proc status & maybe crit. New Sarpa? Al those procs or crits...

[trst]

Just because AOE weapons are overpowered doesn't mean that everything else is underpowered. Melee is perfectly "fine" (still overpowered actually) and is still stronger than most weapons.

Also melee doesn't have "animation locks" as you can roll out of all non-finisher melee animations. You might want to consider actually using melee weapons before making sweeping statements about them.

 

The only lasting change from those nerfs was combo stacking builds being less dominant. Yet that didn't actually impact their efficacy and heavy attack builds were entirely untouched. If anything those changes helped melee build diversity by reducing the difference in damage between combo stacking and everything else.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

I mean not much has changed, can still spam one button and stomp everything. 

[Kaotyke]

Is this about a couple of Melee Mods? Those were the last nerfs to "melee" that I remember, and you are quiet a few months late.

[Traumtulpe]

12 minutes ago, CodeVauban said:

You seem to be ignoring the reason as to why people do this. His 1 has really bad IA, it's even worse when he's trying to melee stuff because he often won't even kill enemies a lot of the time. The clone can't even use heavy attacks, something you'd much prefer if you use gunblades a lot.

So yeah, people stick to primary weapon wukong because unlike melee wukong it actually works.

If you use your melee, Wuclone uses your gun. The only reason to unequip your melee (and have both use gun) is if you yourself don't want to use a melee weapon.

9 minutes ago, quxier said:

If not I don't remember any "crazy" nerfs.

Melee lost >400% crit, 33% damage from CO, half it's procs (and thus more damage from CO), attack speed, range, probably more. It's been too long for me to care about the exact numbers.

[ReddyDisco]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Remember when DE nerfed melee damage (and crit, and procs, and...) like crazy, and buffed guns? I said at the time that this was a bad idea, that (combo) melee was overnerfed

I don't, melee was hardly touched. It's still as deadly as ever, aoe guns are just easier to use

[BiancaRoughfin]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Remember when DE nerfed melee damage (and crit, and procs, and...) like crazy, and buffed guns?

They didnt Nerf Melee, they nerfed some Melee mods like Bloodrush and its still a very strong option for melee builds. Not something worth crying over in my opinion as i stopped using BloodRush long ago.

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

and that the Kuva Bramma would replace melee as the meta.

Which will eventually get nerfed again, hopefully some time soon. I doubt it would be used as often and so braindead if Self Damage was still a thing but even developers commit mistakes some times.

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

...Isn't the game in a much worse state today, as a result? It seems obvious to me. Melee?

Game does feel lacking but not because of Melee changes, mostly because of the lackluster updates they have released. New War didnt stand up to the hype built and teased, Zariman is just another grindy content island, Dormizones are a bad joke and insult that i still havent bothered to visit mine.

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

I'm never using it anymore. Completely dead as far as I'm concerned. Why be stuck in clunky animation locks for low damage in a small area (and, depending on the weapon, awful follow through), when you can blast half the map with powerful explosive weapons, through walls no less?

Well the animation is clunky depending on the weapon/stance you are using. I have been using mostly Daggers and Long Blades, in my case i have been using the Skana Prime for a wile now and my build has been easily dealing with both normal and Steel Path enemies with ease.

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

People said melee was press E to win, but I had a lot of fun using it as effectively as I could.

It wasnt necessarily Press E to win since you trade range for damage, problem was mods like Bloodrush, weeping wounds and condition overload scaled too much and i must say people just got too spoiled with the power they gave which is a big issue of the game.

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Today I don't even see enemies anymore. I just see red marks on the map while I bullet jump through the level and dispense rockets in their general direction. And I bought the smoke color palette for it's pure black color - because with normal coloring, I literally couldn't even see where I was going from the explosions.

Now heres where it gets interesting, you complain the game was more Fun when Melee was stronger than Guns yet you admit to running the map doing the same AoE meta you complained about previously. So is the game not Fun because Melee isnt as powerful/useful to you anymore or because you adhered to the brain dead AoE meta?

Kuva Bramma, Kuva Zarr and others, they are all their, they are powerful yes but i refrain from using them, i dont follow Meta, i make my own loadouts and dont follow trends, i still kill more than most players using those weapons in most missions and i also still have fun.

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

can we just admit DE made a mistake and bring melee back (and fix all the bugs it has)? It was fun being a ninja in space, back then.

Yes, DE has made many mistakes, Melee changes was not one of them. Bring back Self Damage. <3

[Fingerguns_Prime]

In the beginning ...
(Damn I sound old)

There was no 'stealth'.
No sneaking.
If you were near enough to an enemy, they knew exactly where you were, and would charge. All you'd ever need to do was mash 'melee' and you'd come out on top.
It's the reason Exi Prime was my main.

With the inclusion of better, higher-grade weapons, the still relatively 'new' DE fell victim to something known as 'power creep'.
Where the new thing unbalances with the old thing. Make people rely more on guns than blades.

Now the pendulum is swinging back the other way, and has been, slowly, for some time.
I, myself, have noticed that melee is becoming a viable means of slaying fools, again, which just makes me want to focus on being a blade beast, as God intended. XD

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Remember when DE nerfed melee damage (and crit, and procs, and...) like crazy, and buffed guns? I said at the time that this was a bad idea, that (combo) melee was overnerfed, and that the Kuva Bramma would replace melee as the meta.

...Isn't the game in a much worse state today, as a result? It seems obvious to me. Melee? I'm never using it anymore. Completely dead as far as I'm concerned. Why be stuck in clunky animation locks for low damage in a small area (and, depending on the weapon, awful follow through), when you can blast half the map with powerful explosive weapons, through walls no less?

People said melee was press E to win, but I had a lot of fun using it as effectively as I could. Today I don't even see enemies anymore. I just see red marks on the map while I bullet jump through the level and dispense rockets in their general direction. And I bought the smoke color palette for it's pure black color - because with normal coloring, I literally couldn't even see where I was going from the explosions.

Quite some time has passed, can we just admit DE made a mistake and bring melee back (and fix all the bugs it has)? It was fun being a ninja in space, back then.

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Remember when DE nerfed melee damage (and crit, and procs, and...) like crazy, and buffed guns? I said at the time that this was a bad idea, that (combo) melee was overnerfed, and that the Kuva Bramma would replace melee as the meta.

...Isn't the game in a much worse state today, as a result? It seems obvious to me. Melee? I'm never using it anymore. Completely dead as far as I'm concerned. Why be stuck in clunky animation locks for low damage in a small area (and, depending on the weapon, awful follow through), when you can blast half the map with powerful explosive weapons, through walls no less?

People said melee was press E to win, but I had a lot of fun using it as effectively as I could. Today I don't even see enemies anymore. I just see red marks on the map while I bullet jump through the level and dispense rockets in their general direction. And I bought the smoke color palette for it's pure black color - because with normal coloring, I literally couldn't even see where I was going from the explosions.

Quite some time has passed, can we just admit DE made a mistake and bring melee back (and fix all the bugs it has)? It was fun being a ninja in space, back then.

Melee works fine on all my builds. Just switch a couple mods around and everything was working like before. Big numbers are still there for them. Besides, you complain about Aoe, and that's never not been a problem in recent memory.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, TomCruisesSon said:

Ok, we've heard your feedback. And we're gonna make it right......

Introducing Umbral Firestorm and Umbral Munitions!!! Coming to an Arbiter of Hexis Vendor near you.

I hate that this is exactly what DE will do.

[Josh486]

Not really that melee sucks, but more that AOE is overpowered as all hell. But DE keeps making AOE weapons so yeah, melee ain’t doing so hot. 

[Tiltskillet]

IMO, other than the Berserker and maybe Gladiator changes, the melee nerfs were ok.  DE's mistake was the scale of the Galvanized multi and weapon arcane boosts, and failing to account for their much greater practical effect on already OP AoE weapons compared to less powerful AoE and precision weapons. 

Of course, that mistake just built on earlier mistakes like Primed Firestorm and Primed Sure Footed and some nonsensical weapon balancing.

[Kontrollo]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

Remember when DE buffed melee damage like crazy, and did nothing for guns? And people stopped using their guns, just max range melee macro spam walking through SP? Remember when DE buffed gun damage like crazy to make up for it, and it only made AoE that much more powerful than single-target and did nothing for Amps and Archguns? Endless buffs have never worked. They've always been impractical. They've always been a mistake. If you want all weapon types to be worth using, the answer isn't continuing this endless game of catch-up chasing buffs on top of buffs on top of buffs. It's the opposite, the answer to DE's mistakes are for them to not endlessly buff everything over and over again, it's for them to finally decide on a baseline level of power and stick to it. And practically speaking, the easiest way to do that is by nerfing the few outliers breaking the formula.

I remember, and following that logic: clearly it's time to buff Warframe damage like crazy again. (Also Arch Guns have just been mentioned in another thread.)

😏

[Leqesai]

14 minutes ago, Josh486 said:

Not really that melee sucks, but more that AOE is overpowered as all hell. But DE keeps making AOE weapons so yeah, melee ain’t doing so hot. 

Funny thing is, Melee being very powerful is exactly because Melee IS AOE. It is just short-range, unlimited ammo AOE. 

You use Bramma at range but then you use the melee equivalent (any melee) within 5m for roughly the same results. Melee was considered super-overpowered before when it could: A: bypass LOS
B: extend up to 10m with some weapons

DE has effectively reduced the effectiveness of melee but only insofar as it isn't super-overpowered anymore. Melee right now is in a really good spot. Damage scales well still and it still retains useful range. 

The issue here really has nothing to do with the efficacy of melee, it has to do with AOE primary+secondary weapons being hilariously overpowered. Don't get me wrong, I do love firing once and clearing whole rooms of enemies, as well as enemies behind walls, with one shot from my Bramma, but I would be lying if I said this isn't overpowered. 

DE need to get off their high horse and realize the community knows what they're talking about here. The AOE meta is very much in need of refinement. 
Easy solutions too:

1: Instituted global LOS restrictions on AOE abilities and weapons (why isn't this consistent I have no idea...)
2: Either reduce the effectiveness of Primed Surefooted to 90% or give its stagger protection a cooldown (you can block 1 stagger every X seconds)