AoE Changes - subtle but impactful? [post Devstream discussion]

[CosoMalvadoNG]

9 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

I don't think you appreciate the amount of strategy required in being able to shoot your feet with AOE. Some Warframes don't even have feet, like Wisp, Ember Deluxe, Caliban, etc its impossible to find the feet and thus the ground is harder to find too! So its like, you have to do all sorts of complex maths! 

Then you have to log in for 400 days, or pick a Warframe that won't suffer knock back or stagger. There are only a few. Then you have to start the mission itself. There are like over 100 Nodes, picking a mission is hard. Then you have to tilt the camera down, so you are shooting the ground and not the ceiling... though actually on some tilesets, that still works too, since the AOE is so big and some AOE has bomblets that drop and cause more explosions... but but... some tilesets are just the sky, so so... and then some enemies are really fast, and in large groups, like... gangs... these vicious roaming street gangs... they can ambush me when I am reloading. If you just stand still and reload, it makes it really easy for enemies to kill you, because they out number us, and they are vicious killers. 

If anything... AOE should be buffed! So that when no longer have to reload at all, and the fire rate is higher, and if you shoot up, the AOE blasts home in on enemy locations. I mean, if weapons like Cedo and Cyanex and Mesa have homing, aim bot features, why shouldn't the Kuva Zarr and Bramma! Why should they get to have all the fun! 

TL;DR DE is racist to AOE. Its the only answer that makes sense! 

Before, the AOE would kill you if you shot yourself in the foot and there was no such mod so people who used AOE weapons either died constantly or used the weapons only with a correct distance but today you killed hordes with a broken weapons without any problem.

You believe you are incapable without AOE broken sh*t, that is your thing, not a problem with the balance of the game.

[PhiZero]

The headshot changes alone should help drastically through double dipping, as quite often a headshot would be pretty insane if you can find a way to land it. ie, the Bramma from what I've seen can be detonated mid-flight to carpet bomb groups of enemies, unintentionally scoring headshots as well.

 

While the 3x multiplier buff to precision weapons only is a bit underwhelming and needs to be defined a bit more thoroughly, as after rewarching the stream a few times implies that it should apply to snipers only, but I hope it includes the Knell and Arca Cisco.

While full auto weapons remaing at 2x...I understand but it still kinda hurts to hear. The primary Catchmoon is just as insane as it's always been even with only a 1.6x headshot multiplier through deadhead, but lower damage per shot weapons like the Kuva Karak (without Xaku's 1) are starting to flounder in Overguard 2.0, which was supposed to curve power creep and AoE burst. (Honestly, it's starting to feel like we need both a precision and bullethose headshot weapon category.)

All of that considers base damage alone, as a corrosive weapon is still going to melt someone's face regardless of weapon type. Then we have DoTs like Gas, Slash, Heat, and Electric that get to double dip on faction mods on top of headshots. AoE weapons will become less effective at pumping out slash and heat procs from headshots being reduced to 1x, (maybe deadhead can push it back to 1.6x, too little information currently) but weapons like the Vulkar Wraith, Sporothrix, and maybe the Arca Cisco might be able to shine brighter than most with the new 3x multiplier through DoT effects.

 

As for keyboard vs controller headshot ease of use, I can't speak for the PS4 and X1 versions of warframe, but on NSW headshots are incredibly easy to land. I've always been an absolutely God awful shot on PC, jittering all over the place like an addict in withdrawal; but, controller headshots with gyroaiming is unbelievably smooth, to the point that aim assist needs to be turned down or even disabled due to the reticle sticking becoming an issue in solo SP survival.

[Tiltskillet]

After these horrible AoE nerfs, how will we be able to complete the NW "Kill 20 enemies in 5 seconds" challenge?

[(XBOX)Eye0fTyphoon]

23 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

hey are playing just fine, doesn't seem a "new terrible ways to loot" to me.

Terribly way means like Infested Salvage for Nidus, former Railjack Defense C rotation for Ash, recently picking-up voidplumes, etc.

[Yamazuki]

Outside of SP or specific higher level content, there's already hardly any enemies.

I don't use explosive weapons, and I have no problems dealing with content that has higher enemy counts, and do not find it necessary, or would enjoy, seeing a reduction in enemies. Reducing enemies would also contradict the whole, 'it isn't fair one person hogs all the kills and it disrupts my gameplay' complaints, as that's already possible in most content even without explosive weapons partly due to low enemy counts.

[(XBOX)Eye0fTyphoon]

30 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

your beloved Zarr

I use it limitedly when I need it because its slow firelate is annoying.

I began and am doing Warframe because of Melee.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Or maybe learn to do more than use one weapon. 

 

[cute_moth.npc]

1 hour ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

I am not sure, am experiencing sudden blood loss, and my vision is obscured. Maybe I shouldn't have cut off my nose?!? Whose to say.

 

Don't start with the nose next time, it will make you spite your face! 

I don't actually think anyone kills things using stuff like Laetum, Nataruk or Cedo though, they don't have enough particles on screen to dazzle anything to death, which is what actually does the damage. Those weirdos you're talking about are mostly audiophiles who just like the sound effects and they mostly play in Simulacrum with their headphones turned up, they don't actually play. 

That's why things like the nuking frames and scaling damage skills don't work, not enough sparkle! Grouping skills, chaining beam weapons, melee weapons, crowd control, strategy, group play, none of it works. Everyone knows that!

They nerfed ALL of the ways to deal with hordes. 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

5 minutes ago, Mazifet said:

Lol.

In all seriousness though, people are really overreacting. A bramma with primary merciless and ammo mutation is essentially infinite ammo, so when cutting ammo drops in half it would be very rare to run out of it. Plus, it isn't the only aoe weapon. Nerfing ammo might actually buff weapon diversity as less used aoe weapons like the tonkor and shedu will be just fine with ammo.

 

Agreed. I am also sympathetic too, for any player who has their own style, that they have grown accustomed to, and find enjoyment from, but there is a lot of over reacting. It also has happened before, most recently melee. Even happened to my fav class of weapons, shotguns, but... I still enjoy shotguns a lot, I still enjoy melee a lot. AOE is going to be fine, and still viable, still strong, and most likely, still the meta. People just see the stuff they like is going to get nerfed and get too worked up. 

In a few months, a lot of this over reaction will die off and a new topic will be the big issue. I know their are still some die hard melee players, who still make threads etc still unhappy, but I imagine most (myself included to some degree) just accommodated the new changes.

That being said, which group will be next to persecuted? 

First they came for the whips and maiming strike... but I did nothing, because I didn't care for whips and sliding around the map. 

Then they came for Ember's World on Fire... but I did nothing, because IDC about Ember! 

Then they came for shotguns... but I did nothing, cause Kohm went brrrr and I had a Riven. 

Then they came for melee... but I did nothing, because my E button was broken anyway. 

Then they came for AOE... but I did nothing, because Wisp with Xata's Whisper makes automatic rifles silly fun... 

Then in the future... they came for Wisps booty, and her Primed version was Sticc, even thinner and smaller than Garuda Deluxe... and I was upset and angry, but I was alone, because they had taken everyone else already. Or something. We need to stop DE before its too late! 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

23 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

Before, the AOE would kill you if you shot yourself in the foot and there was no such mod so people who used AOE weapons either died constantly or used the weapons only with a correct distance but today you killed hordes with a broken weapons without any problem.

You believe you are incapable without AOE broken sh*t, that is your thing, not a problem with the balance of the game.

 

That sounds highly unrealistic. If I take a rocket launcher in real life, and shoot the ground near my feet, I won't die. The explosion will explode the air around me, and propel me upwards. Scientists call this a Rocket Jump! Sounds to me, like DE just doesn't like AOE, and is using every sort of fantasy excuse to bring it down. 

Well, I don't believe in anyone who says that they don't use AOE, so its hard to say what any of us are capable of, given we all use AOE all the time, I am not interested in hypotheticals or abstract ideas, like using other weapons. Like the ones... I talked about in my original post... 

(You are making some great points, but I would feel bad, if I didn't point out that my original post you replied to, involved a lot of heavy sarcasm, meaning we are on the same page. This might be a case of Poe's Law.)

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

9 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

I don't actually think anyone kills things using stuff like Laetum, Nataruk or Cedo though, they don't have enough particles on screen to dazzle anything to death, which is what actually does the damage. Those weirdos you're talking about are mostly audiophiles who just like the sound effects and they mostly play in Simulacrum with their headphones turned up, they don't actually play. 

That's why things like the nuking frames and scaling damage skills don't work, not enough sparkle! Grouping skills, chaining beam weapons, melee weapons, crowd control, strategy, group play, none of it works. Everyone knows that!

....

You solved it. Thats an excellent observation and tracks too, since what is Mag getting in the rework? The shards she gets from Polarise will now rotate around you, and be more visually loud and clear... Which means if you increase your Mag colours to bright white and electric pink... and use Polarise and Magnetise, you'll open up new and improved ways to blind people! Thats extra sparkle! 

Maybe for Phantasma Prime, they can make the feature of the gun, is that it reverses the beam... instead of shooting out in a forward direction, the beams "cross", and as the great philosophers the Busters of Poltergeist were famed for saying... Never. Cross. The. Beams. This can cause a chain reaction, which may lead to total protonic reversal (or destruction at the cellular level. Or in the case of Warframe and the Phantasma Prime, it will blind your perspective and blow up the graphics processor! 

Not sure why they want that as a feature, but hey, I don't decide the meta. 

[RichardKam]

10小时前 , (XBOX)Knight Raime 说:

It's silly to me that of all the changes we're getting in this update people laser focus the one thing they don't like.  I get that's generally how people behave but still.  You need to look at the summary of all the changes as a single total package.  The devs have basically made armor much less effective.  This boosts a lot of frames viability in much more difficult content.  Having more frames be viable in that content means you have new things to use against enemies to make them easier to deal with.  Then you combine that with the insanity that is the headshot buff and weapon swap speed and you're now putting out a LOT more damage.  All this to mean the player should be at the same level if not stronger at mobbing in hard content compared to currently.

You just won't be able to point and click a hallway as much anymore.  Oh well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Not to mention we have shard system to modify the base stat (not yet confirm) of each warframe. If true, I think that is the most important changes in the upcoming update.

You can min-max your frame to ridiculous level, or you can supplement the weakness of your frame and make it more balance. You may even drop one or two compulsory mods for more varieties. Imagine the endless possibilities with focus 3.0 and Zariman arcanes, people will be studying this system and making new build concepts for years to come.

This is just like 2 months since Reb and Pablo taking the steering wheel, and some people complain about DE team 2.0. Jesus.

[cute_moth.npc]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

....

You solved it. Thats an excellent observation and tracks too, since what is Mag getting in the rework? The shards she gets from Polarise will now rotate around you, and be more visually loud and clear... Which means if you increase your Mag colours to bright white and electric pink... and use Polarise and Magnetise, you'll open up new and improved ways to blind people! Thats extra sparkle! 

Maybe for Phantasma Prime, they can make the feature of the gun, is that it reverses the beam... instead of shooting out in a forward direction, the beams "cross", and as the great philosophers the Busters of Poltergeist were famed for saying... Never. Cross. The. Beams. This can cause a chain reaction, which may lead to total protonic reversal (or destruction at the cellular level. Or in the case of Warframe and the Phantasma Prime, it will blind your perspective and blow up the graphics processor! 

Not sure why they want that as a feature, but hey, I don't decide the meta. 

I would now like to be a Mag main but my laptop is already running at like 95°C (That's over 1300°F! I asked Google!)

I do not think I can push it much farther! 

Don't you think that the rework for her 1 is stupid though? What good would clumping all of my enemies in one place do? It's going to block out the particles ;_;

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Eye0fTyphoon said:

If your tarket is in C rotation with 6% probability, you have to repeat that boring mission 20 times, 30 times or more, it could be three-digit unless you're lucky.

 

It's almost as if the game being too easy results in inflated grind times to compensate.... Nah. That can't possibly be it. 

[CosoMalvadoNG]

52 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

After these horrible AoE nerfs, how will we be able to complete the NW "Kill 20 enemies in 5 seconds" challenge?

hahahahaha Mag?

[CosoMalvadoNG]

1 hour ago, ant99999 said:

Look, the only thing in these coming changes that I can at least remotely consider a nerf is ammo changes.

Do you really think being able to shoot from your beloved Zarr a couple times less is "blocking" using it? It's not even worth the effort of posting this here!

That isn't to mention that there are, right now, players who don't use AoE, and believe it or not - they are playing just fine, doesn't seem a "new terrible ways to loot" to me.

Exactly xD. 

[CosoMalvadoNG]

1 hour ago, (PSN)icecell6 said:

I'm perfectly fine with being a mass murdering killing machine of pure death, carnage, and complete and total destruction hell that's not the reason I downloaded (I looked up free games in ps4 store) but that's what got me hooked. All this time I thought warframe was about me Murking as many mfas in the area, call me what ya want but we all play this game. I guess they would have to change it somehow to where the more teammates you have the less damage you do individually that way if your solo you still do the largest amount of damage but that sounds way to complicated and dosen't like "Fit" the reason I like warframe like I like having a team to slaughter millions upon billions of grinner and corpus and infested (Especially they're disgusting) and a few rouge sentients that we see.

I want power, I want efficiency, I want and I want to be rewarded for doing my job well keeping the system safe. Power, Resources, stuff to trade for plat. I use Titania Prime so none of this aoe crap means anything to me really but like if you do use Aoe and your somewhat like me I can see how not having the effective means to actually get the stuff you need and want and not being rewarded for doing your sh** can feel underwhelming and somewhat disappointing if not down right annoying.

What you say makes no sense, I did the same thing in 2017 without an aoe OP But of course they can't make your aoe shoot less from now on because you can not kill hordes without pressing the click 1 time. Hilarious!. That's not the game's problem, it's your problem.

Do you know what's funny? The game has had many radical changes over the years and there are always detractors but the game is still here. And you know what else? I think that every time things change radically, people return to play many more than those who leave.

[alchemystn2o]

44 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

hahahahaha Mag?

Ya beat me to it.  😆

[R4bbit0le]

9 hours ago, Corvid said:

For example, this is what happens when you aim down sights while crouch walking with a rifle (note that I turned my FOV up to max for this). Without even using the bulkier cosmetics, the frame's elbow is almost covering the reticule. Using certain shoulder armours with certain frames (particularly Chroma and Atlas) can result in it being completely covered just by aiming. Again, FOV does nothing for this because it doesn't alter the camera's lateral placement, just how far it's zoomed back from the frame.

Very interesting.

Aiming shouldn't decrease your visibility, you are right in this. Thanks for sharing.

I don't stumble upon that problem too often with my usual weapons or frames.

Out of curiosity, do you find this common? Is there a weapon where this situation is holding you back from playing it?

[Numerikuu]

1 hour ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

hahahahaha Mag?

Hell, even the Tenno can do it should they use the Phahd scaffold.

[ReddyDisco]

[RichardKam]

Did you actually watch the DevStream? Or just knee jerk reflex echo "AoE NERF!!!!!" without understanding what's going on?

Your K. Zarr still does 100k damage with half a room blast radius. Just be more careful about your ammo OK? Or subsume the god damn dispensary.

You can still bring Monkey Prime and your WuClone will do the heavy lifting for you. Just remember to mark your enemy and again, be more careful about YOUR AMMO.

The more I read about AoE nerf thread, the more I agree with Pablo decision to change some aspects in this game.

[0_The_F00l]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Eye0fTyphoon said:

. I don't feel I have to agree with Dev's nerf plan.

You don't have to agree , but you do have to play by their rules.

 

P.s. having multiple threads about the same thing is equivalent to spamming. I recommend avoiding it.

[Pakaku]

You don't need AoE to clear missions quickly, and it's not a race to speedrun missions. Pretty weak argument if your impatience is your only point of debate.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Pretty sure Tiltskillet was being sarcastic/satirical. It was a talking point in another forum thread. 

There are so so so many ways to complete that challenge, Nidus with shotgun. Well really any Warframe that wants to subsume Larvae with a shotgun. Ivara with Ensnare and Artemis Bow Augment with Internal Bleeding (beautiful to see), and any Warframe with Ensnare, Mag, with Magnetise and good projectile, punch through weapons. Oh and with Stropha. Thats another fun one. Vauban with Bastille/Vortex, funnelling a bunch of enemies down a corridor, small room and the Glaive Prime. So many Warframes in ESO, or tight Defence maps, Steel Path Survival etc... with their nuke abilities. With the right set up, a gas Daikyu could do it. Zephyr and Trumna. Certain Operator/Drifter set ups. So many methods.