Question about upcoming Wukong/ammo nerfs

[(PSN)ToXicChaoS87]

Yes i have been maining Wukong nope im not one of the aoe/afk ones, i see the clone will now use my ammo so my question about this will you be updating the trash ai of the clone im currently using Phantasma on my clone but so often he will sit there constantly firing at an enemy miles out of range, so effectively if you dont at least update the ai to only fire when enemy is in range of currently equipped weapon he will just sit there expend all your ammo with zero benefit..... 

[Leqesai]

17 minutes ago, (PSN)ToXicChaoS87 said:

will you be updating the trash ai of the clone

No

 

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

I wouldn't expect them to update the AI of the clone. The AI (of allies and enemies alike) is not exactly the strong point of this game.

[(PSN)ToXicChaoS87]

12 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

I wouldn't expect them to update the AI of the clone. The AI (of allies and enemies alike) is not exactly the strong point of this game.

so essentially his 1 is now just a ammo dump, gotcha switching to octavia main lol

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)ToXicChaoS87 said:

so essentially his 1 is now just a ammo dump, gotcha switching to octavia main lol

I think the Monkey might still work, just not with every weapon. I like to use the Tenet Arca Plasmor (damage dealer for normal starchart) or the Kuva Nukor (CO primer for Steel Path and Arbitrations) with him - and I think they might still work. Will just need to make sure to have ammo mutation and Primary/Secondary Merciless on the relevant guns.

Not sure how well the whole set of changes was thought through. The "problematic" Wukong scenario they showed seemed like a rather contrived example from a survival mission - and I'd argue it highlights more the design issues with Survival missions than those with the Twin. In the less passive endless missions (Interception or Disruption, even Excavation), doing this would just get the mission failed.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

You might just have to preplan a little bit more. Like I love the Phantasma, (nice choice in weapons), but if your keep moving and whilst moving around, you default to Phantasma, the Clone shouldn't be firing at enemies from far away, wasting/expending ammo unnecessarily. If you stand at a Defence point with your melee out waiting for enemies, then yeah... Clone might start expending ammo, without realising enemies should come closer. 

So if you default to your melee a lot, by habit or choice, and know you won't be fighting a lot of enemies actively enough to replenish your ammo, and may have down time (Defence, Mobile Defence etc), maybe then just pick a different Primary. 

Look, I might be wrong, and then when we get the changes, Wukong might be unplayable (and I'll concede my following point), and changes/nerfs can be hard to stomach, and so apprehension is understandable. I have sympathy for anyone worries their favourite or one of their favourite Warframes may be less effective... but also, as people in general, we can over worry too. If you are not one of the AFK players, you should be fine. I know Phantasma can have ammo issues (though that might be because of my negative ammo Riven) and its a short range weapon, and Spectre/Clone AI can be a bit lacking at times... but its not like there aren't things you can do. Again, being conscious as to what weapon you default to (make Clone use melee more), moving around a lot to replenish ammo. Picking a different gun if you plan on using your melee, in missions, where it might be more static etc

[MutoManiac]

I think I'll still use Wukong but without the twin, except now I'll use the Bramma and KZarr which I always avoided and see how the cry babies like that instead. 🙄

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

9 minutes ago, m_a_r_c_h_ said:

I think I'll still use Wukong but without the twin, except now I'll use the Bramma and KZarr which I always avoided and see how the cry babies like that instead. 🙄

[trst]

If Twin already struggled to hit things at all with the Phantasma then why use it with the Phantasma in the first place?

Though there shouldn't be a problem unless you run without a melee weapon. As the Twin should be in range of enemies just from following you into melee range.

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, (PSN)ToXicChaoS87 said:

so essentially his 1 is now just a ammo dump, gotcha switching to octavia main lol

And today on this chapter of Mountains from Mole Hills...

[(PSN)ToXicChaoS87]

26 minutes ago, trst said:

If Twin already struggled to hit things at all with the Phantasma then why use it with the Phantasma in the first place?

Though there shouldn't be a problem unless you run without a melee weapon. As the Twin should be in range of enemies just from following you into melee range.

it doesn't struggle all the time, sometimes i will catch it aiming and firing at a balcony all the way across the room even though it cant hit it, and in open worlds it is by far worse, it will aim and fire at airships that just spawned in that it cant reach, and as to why use it, its a fun gun burns enemies down fairly quick, and i didn't want to just follow suit and use bramma.

[Slayer-.]

7 hours ago, m_a_r_c_h_ said:

I think I'll still use Wukong but without the twin, except now I'll use the Bramma and KZarr which I always avoided and see how the cry babies like that instead. 🙄

  players come to forums    me reading said posts. 

6 hours ago, Leqesai said:

And today on this chapter of Mountains from Mole Hills...

Brought to you by. s

[0_The_F00l]

You will probably want to recheck your loadouts with ammo inefficient weapons.

there is no change to the AI .... as of now.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb (PSN)ToXicChaoS87:

Yes i have been maining Wukong nope im not one of the aoe/afk ones, i see the clone will now use my ammo so my question about this will you be updating the trash ai of the clone im currently using Phantasma on my clone but so often he will sit there constantly firing at an enemy miles out of range, so effectively if you dont at least update the ai to only fire when enemy is in range of currently equipped weapon he will just sit there expend all your ammo with zero benefit..... 

they want to ruin wukong, not buff it. therefore I also read no AI improvements. because code is already there -> see railjack crew.

and clone has intellect of an ant and reaction of a grandmother. so I find it embarrassing that afk nonsense is still being spread. because you have to move wukong every 2 minutes so that clone does something in normal def on earth.

[SenorClipClop]

31 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

I find it embarrassing that afk nonsense is still being spread. because you have to move wukong every 2 minutes so that clone does something in normal def on earth.

AFK is a witch hunt guys, I have to press a button once every 2 minutes! 

[Merrcenary]

10 часов назад, trst сказал:

If Twin already struggled to hit things at all with the Phantasma then why use it with the Phantasma in the first place?

that's why people used aoe weapons on wukong clone. surprise

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

12 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

that's why people used aoe weapons on wukong clone. surprise

Not quite. The clone has never had much of a problem with aiming in the direction of enemies. It just doesn't understand certain concepts like weapon range and weak points. It will aim centre-of-mass even if you need to hit an enemy's weak point, and it will keep shooting at the enemy even if it's out of range of the gun.

When the clone had free ammo, this didn't matter. Now that the clone actually uses ammo, the range issue really needs fixing (although I can see the argument against fixing the weak point issue).

People gave the clone AOE for reasons that have nothing to do with accuracy: Warframe is a horde shooter, and AOE kills more of the horde at the same time. Normally, you balance this with ammo economy, but clone had free ammo.

[trst]

29 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

that's why people used aoe weapons on wukong clone. surprise

And the Phantasma is an AOE weapon.

As Baltic said, it isn't an AOE or aim issue, it's an issue with the AI not understanding maximum range on weapons. And every AI companion that can use guns does perfectly fine with everything else.

[Leqesai]

1 minute ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

Not quite. The clone has never had much of a problem with aiming in the direction of enemies. It just doesn't understand certain concepts like weapon range and weak points. It will aim centre-of-mass even if you need to hit an enemy's weak point, and it will keep shooting at the enemy even if it's out of range of the gun.

When the clone had free ammo, this didn't matter. Now that the clone actually uses ammo, the range issue really needs fixing (although I can see the argument against fixing the weak point issue).

People gave the clone AOE for reasons that have nothing to do with accuracy: Warframe is a horde shooter, and AOE kills more of the horde at the same time. Normally, you balance this with ammo economy, but clone had free ammo.

The thing a out why people choose aoe is spot on. I would have thought the big brains developing the game would have had the foresight to realize just how much more valuable aoe is over single target.

1000 damage to 10 enemies with 1000 health is far more useful than 1 million damage to 1 enemy. Once they started pushing out the stupidly powerful aoe weapons the shot to kill ratio went through the roof. 

Stacked with 10 meter explosiolve weapons that you don't even have to aim? Lol... it's no wonder wukong was used as much as he was.

But let's be rizzeal here. The change to wukong's staff will very easily make him and his clone viable in a different  capacity. 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb (NSW)BalticBarbarian:

Not quite. The clone has never had much of a problem with aiming in the direction of enemies. It just doesn't understand certain concepts like weapon range and weak points. It will aim centre-of-mass even if you need to hit an enemy's weak point, and it will keep shooting at the enemy even if it's out of range of the gun.

When the clone had free ammo, this didn't matter. Now that the clone actually uses ammo, the range issue really needs fixing (although I can see the argument against fixing the weak point issue).

People gave the clone AOE for reasons that have nothing to do with accuracy: Warframe is a horde shooter, and AOE kills more of the horde at the same time. Normally, you balance this with ammo economy, but clone had free ammo.

and you play mele with wukong?

[0_The_F00l]

49 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

and you play mele with wukong?

Do you actually play at all?

feels like the only thing you mostly do is add gifs and then run away.

[Merrcenary]

1 час назад, (NSW)BalticBarbarian сказал:

Not quite. The clone has never had much of a problem with aiming in the direction of enemies. It just doesn't understand certain concepts like weapon range and weak points. It will aim centre-of-mass even if you need to hit an enemy's weak point, and it will keep shooting at the enemy even if it's out of range of the gun.

When the clone had free ammo, this didn't matter. Now that the clone actually uses ammo, the range issue really needs fixing (although I can see the argument against fixing the weak point issue).

People gave the clone AOE for reasons that have nothing to do with accuracy: Warframe is a horde shooter, and AOE kills more of the horde at the same time. Normally, you balance this with ammo economy, but clone had free ammo.

then give rubico to wuclone and do some missions. i bet 9/10 times he will just stand somewhere behind the wall shooting it

[Dunkelheit]

vor 21 Minuten schrieb 0_The_F00l:

Do you actually play at all?

feels like the only thing you mostly do is add gifs and then run away.

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

3 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

then give rubico to wuclone and do some missions. i bet 9/10 times he will just stand somewhere behind the wall shooting it

Would you settle for the same experiment with Aksomati Prime instead of Rubico? Because I've done that multiple times - they are my go-to secondary and the clone grabs them as soon as I try an aim glide while carrying anything (excavation, mobile defense).

With Aksomatis in hand, the clone stands in a fairly sensible position and shoots at enemies. Enemies die - just one at a time instead of 10 at a time like they would have from a Bramma

[Venus-Venera]

Gerade eben schrieb (NSW)BalticBarbarian:

Would you settle for the same experiment with Aksomati Prime instead of Rubico? Because I've done that multiple times - they are my go-to secondary and the clone grabs them as soon as I try an aim glide while carrying anything (excavation, mobile defense).

With Aksomatis in hand, the clone stands in a fairly sensible position and shoots at enemies. Enemies die - just one at a time instead of 10 at a time like they would have from a Bramma

🤣

you will never get bored.....
so another mele wukong?

and where can you play with the trash tactic? on normal earth defence?