Returning player - mandatory mod removal when?!?

[Loviam]

Hey folks, 

Title says it all, i love the systems this game has but mandatory mods make modding pretty mindless. has de given any indicator of any discussion of updating the mod system in the distant future?

Thanks,
Lovee

[Numerikuu]

Mod how you want to. Nothing is mandatory unless you choose to follow metas.

[Loviam]

Thank you for ignoring the context of the question, to draw the best out of a weapon 4-6 and often up to 7 of the mods are within the same like 16 to 20 mods, maybe if you play a wide variety of weapons in their category you can use UP TO 32 different mods per category. there is hundreds in all categories that are completely overshadowed by these mods. next time. if you dont have a valueable answer to a direct question, dont answer.

[Graavarg]

Since we generally can achieve a huge "overkill"-capacity, and this can be done in several/many different ways, there are actually very few mandatory mods. The "mandatory" factor comes from the meta, which due to it's nature will always be restricted to a certain small subset of mods. After all, meta is by definition the "most efficient", even if that ends up applying a 1000000 damage hit to an enemy that would die from 1000 damage.

But the more you leave the meta behind, the more you need both to adapt how you play (lets say that not all of your focus is on "speed-running with AoE" anymore) and the more you need to engage with the damage system. And you also need to use status ticks, different mechanisms for buffing damage (abilities and arcanes) and actively select builds according to what enemies you will face (= "not one meta weapon for all purposes" anymore).

The biggest drawback to all of this (outside a player's own mind, where much of the "blockage" sits) is the current forma/polarity system, that seems geared towards single meta builds rather than to switch things up. Once you've modded a weapon for it's "maximum meta potential" you have also blocked that weapon from a more varied mod usage simply due to polarizing the slots. This is even being "extra enforced" by punishing you for slotting a different polarity mod into a polarized slot. It is one of the currently inherently most stupid things in Warframe, with roots in how Warframe was meant to work "a long time ago" but no real connection to how the game currently functions.  I'll clarify: the hundreds and hundreds of weapons, all with a base amount of three "builds" and the option to buy more build slots but all polarized mod slots "locked" (across all those builds), leads to the situation where you would have to own multiple (differently forma'ed) copies of these hundreds and hundreds of weapons just be able to use existing mods for diversity. Which all is dumb beyond any and all logic reasoning. There should be either an option for multi-polarity forma'ing or for different forma use per build slot, or both.

So to sum it up: you can easily use different mod setups (and it is both fun and a core game concept), but you need the mental strength to step off the (meta-driven) power curve and DE is actually trying to make all this harder for you.

[(PSN)Hammerfist1991]

Im not aware of a next rework that is talked about RN.

And even if you didnt like Numerikuus answere, he is kinda right. No mods are realy mandatory, but surely there are more efficient ways to mod your frames and weapons. Truly a bad move from DE that you arent able to faceroll your mods and always get a SP-ready gun/frame.

There are mods in use today that i never used years ago, like faction-based dmg mods or projectile speed. Its up to you to follow the meta or try new builds for yourself. People do mod in unusual ways, and if its just for the fun of it.

[Yamazuki]

The modding system is just a progression system. You don't improve weapons directly by leveling them or pouring resources into them as is the case in other games. That is done by getting mods and spending resources on the mods themselves; even the forma system is just a means to be able to fit more maxed mods.

If you removed base damage mods and crit/status mods, you wouldn't be solving the 'mandatory' mods problem to begin with. Other mods would just take their place.

[Loviam]

Hey thanks for explaining the issue to everyone who didnt immediately understand what i was saying. but you clarified the point perfectly. there is a series of mods that are so effective that they outclass all but a small subset, which makes modding very boring when the exact same mods are applied to every weapon to make them OP. while im aware i can reduce the power of the weapon to artifically increase difficulty this is infact not what im asking about. almost everyone who reads this immediately knows which mods im referring to and why i refer to them as "mandatory". yes i know they arent mandatory that is just the term im using to refer to the elite subset of mods that HEAVILY outclass everything else. the system of find the right combo of polarities ive done to every weapon ive ever used is tedious and boring.  

To clarify to everyone who reads after this point. idgaf that i CAN use weaker mods to use my weapons. im not looking for a change to the difficulty. i know where to find higher difficulty content. im looking for more interesting AND effective mods from the devs not the same 32 in every category that make every weapon feel like a different skin to the same item

[AntifreezeUnder0]

Yea, in order to get have an illusion of difficulty you have to not use better mods you got via playing game, completing it or being lucky to buy them off barro. 

At current state of game even frame is mod and certain ability subsume fodder and weapon do the whole work with set arcanes, and or focus schools.

Well maybe with enough of powercreep and new great weapons we could have more space to variate the moding, since you need certain ammount of dmg to kill, not just go for overkilling overkill.

[CrySpear]

Same thing can be said about weapons, we have so many choices but we really only use a small amount based on effectiveness, don't think anything will be done about any of these issues as it's a major change across the game, fingers crossed for soul frame.

[Loviam]

3 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

If you removed base damage mods and crit/status mods, you wouldn't be solving the 'mandatory' mods problem to begin with. Other mods would just take their place.

i removed the irrelevant ramble from the start of your message because its completely missed the point of my question. 

remove all flat damage from all mods and increase all weapons by the amount of PPP and youd instantly find people would start using more varied builds just from having the spare mod slot. 
remove status and crit mods and work that into the stances. this will create more variance in stances because it will give them an actual purpose.
rebalance IPS procs so that all 3 are equal not very clear tiers in their uses. yes im aware that you need to use them against specific enemies in extreme high tier missions but that says everything about how theyve effectively dispursed damage modifiers against enemies but thats not what im referring to. the fact that slash deals true damange and that piercing reduces damage enemies deal is infinitely better than just rag doll. 

Guys ive been playing this game for 9 years now. i was here for anniversary 1 and the mod system has barely changed at all. can someone answer me about if theyve said anything about the next mod or damage system implementation 

[Graavarg]

14 minutes ago, Loviam said:

To clarify to everyone who reads after this point. idgaf that i CAN use weaker mods to use my weapons. im not looking for a change to the difficulty. i know where to find higher difficulty content. im looking for more interesting AND effective mods from the devs not the same 32 in every category that make every weapon feel like a different skin to the same item

Yup, I think we all got that (this is not a new topic on the forum... 🙂). But what you are asking for is a sort of a logical impossibility: even if there was a thousand interchangeable mods that did the same level of damage, nothing would really change. You could slot in any of those different mods, but the "variance" would be meaningless since they all do the same level of damage. And if mods are focused on doing different kinds of damage in different ways (like they currently are), you will logically always end up with a small subset of mods doing "the most damage".

The above is kind of an logically inescapable fact (either they are all the same which renders the variance meaningless, or they are different which makes a certain small subset "the best"). So if you put that kind of "fake" variance aside (as logically impossible), you are left with "diversity" as the option for varying your mods. This can even translate into "more damage" than the current meta in certain setups (like using primed "anti-faction" mods), but will not be as widely usable. Since "a lot more of the same sh*t" is not a solution to the problem and actually renders that whole question meaningless (logically speaking), the real, actual problem concerning "variance modding" is that the whole current modding mechanism "punishes" you if you try to go that way (and that punishment increases the more you want to push a certain weapon in DIFFERENT directions).

[CrySpear]

The only changes to damage I know of are the cold proc changes and they said something about bringing back self damage.

[Loviam]

Im just gonna take this as a no. they havent said a single damn thing in any way shape or form to say if they plan on updating the mod systems or damage systems in any meaningful way in any real time frame

[Graavarg]

1 minute ago, Loviam said:

Im just gonna take this as a no. they havent said a single damn thing in any way shape or form to say if they plan on updating the mod systems or damage systems in any meaningful way in any real time frame

I would say that is the correct conclusion.

Which puts the responsibility for using the mod system and the damage system in "more meaningful ways" solely on the player. Which DE should support by removing the current idiotic obstacles that are remnants from an earlier, almost forgotten age.

[(PSN)Hammerfist1991]

vor 39 Minuten schrieb Loviam:

Guys ive been playing this game for 9 years now. i was here for anniversary 1 and the mod system has barely changed at all. can someone answer me about if theyve said anything about the next mod or damage system implementation 

The hell are you talking about? The mod system was way, way different back in the days. As were connected issues.

We got the whole mod system reworked at least once, pretty sure more than once, we got multiple elemental/status-damage reworks (which directly affect the usage of mods), we got multiple meele damage reworks which also affected the use of specific mods/basically introduced meele combat because it was S#&$ before.

I dont often defend DE, but you got no clue what you are talking about. And you also act like a major #$&(% while doing so.

People tell you you can mod different, if you dont go for the high meta stuff. If thats not what you wanna hear, thats realy a shame. No need to get hostile over it thoug.

Go out and get some Vitamin D, you surely need it.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

52 minutes ago, Loviam said:

Hey thanks for explaining the issue to everyone who didnt immediately understand what i was saying. but you clarified the point perfectly. there is a series of mods that are so effective that they outclass all but a small subset, which makes modding very boring when the exact same mods are applied to every weapon to make them OP. while im aware i can reduce the power of the weapon to artifically increase difficulty this is infact not what im asking about. almost everyone who reads this immediately knows which mods im referring to and why i refer to them as "mandatory". yes i know they arent mandatory that is just the term im using to refer to the elite subset of mods that HEAVILY outclass everything else. the system of find the right combo of polarities ive done to every weapon ive ever used is tedious and boring.  

To clarify to everyone who reads after this point. idgaf that i CAN use weaker mods to use my weapons. im not looking for a change to the difficulty. i know where to find higher difficulty content. im looking for more interesting AND effective mods from the devs not the same 32 in every category that make every weapon feel like a different skin to the same item

We get it you want a mod rework.

 

No they havent said theyre gonna.

 

No they probably wont.

No most of us dont agree that its necessary. Like one of the first replies said you dont have to follow the meta for every build all the time.

 

Salt my fries.

[trst]

No there's no current talks about reworking it. And honestly I don't think there'll ever be a real reason for them do ever do so.

As weapons only have on real purpose: do deal damage. And the systems we have in order to deal damage with them are pretty one dimensional so building more damage is really the only approach even if "mandatory mods" didn't exist. In order to have variety in weapon builds, before even considering the removal of "mandatory" mods, we'd not only need a rework to damage and enemy scaling in general but also a rework regarding what stats are even on offer to mod for and a rework to the entire status system.

But also the mods that we even call "mandatory" have changed over time. As new powercrept mods are added we've switched them out with older ones. System/mechanic reworks have resulted in loadout changes; like how we no longer use all "rainbow" builds or how Viral/Slash/Heat replaced Corrosive meta. Nerfs have pushed some mods out of favor with some weapons like the melee range or maiming strike nerfs. Rivens can be used to replace 1-2 entire mods from a loadout. And more recently Primary/Secondary Arcanes replaced basic +damage mods while opening up an entire mod slot for free.

So even if they tried to remove "mandatory" mods we'd still mod in exactly the same way and the eventual addition of new mods and nerfs, buffs, and reworks would just lead us to the same situation anyways.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

2 hours ago, Loviam said:

Hey folks, 

Title says it all, i love the systems this game has but mandatory mods make modding pretty mindless. has de given any indicator of any discussion of updating the mod system in the distant future?

Thanks,
Lovee

They've given the opposite. 

Current and upcoming content such as veilbreaker, new war, and Duviri are mostly about the operator or other characters, as opposed to the Warframes, giving off the impression that DE themselves is having trouble balancing the game because of the amount of people who finish all the content within 15 days. 

As for any actual progress, it's the reverse, as we have had helminth (which serves as a mini frame rework, but is mostly used as a damage buff on already good frames), archon shards (again, can be used for casting speed, better base stats, or energy on frames who need it instead of mods or arcanes, but is mostly used to make everyone's favorite frame do more damage or have a higher power strength when they already have enough of it). 

So considering de is trying to avoid mods and add "extra mods" in the forms of helminth and archon shards (which were immediately abused for power creep, let the tauforged shard debacle tell you that), the mod problem may not be something they can fix, or maybe they see how hard it'll be and gave up before even trying.

[nerfinator6]

2 hours ago, Loviam said:

Guys ive been playing this game for 9 years now. i was here for anniversary 1 and the mod system has barely changed at all. can someone answer me about if theyve said anything about the next mod or damage system implementation 

No.

[PollexMessier]

Here's the thing right

You can't remove mandatory mods, because other mandatory mods will just replace them and you'll have the exact same problem but now weapons do 5-10x more damage.

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, Loviam said:

i removed the irrelevant ramble from the start of your message because its completely missed the point of my question. 

remove all flat damage from all mods and increase all weapons by the amount of PPP and youd instantly find people would start using more varied builds just from having the spare mod slot. 
remove status and crit mods and work that into the stances. this will create more variance in stances because it will give them an actual purpose.
rebalance IPS procs so that all 3 are equal not very clear tiers in their uses. yes im aware that you need to use them against specific enemies in extreme high tier missions but that says everything about how theyve effectively dispursed damage modifiers against enemies but thats not what im referring to. the fact that slash deals true damange and that piercing reduces damage enemies deal is infinitely better than just rag doll. 

Guys ive been playing this game for 9 years now. i was here for anniversary 1 and the mod system has barely changed at all. can someone answer me about if theyve said anything about the next mod or damage system implementation 

Tying anything to stances would be horrible, since stances do not only come down to pure power, they also come down to how they feel. Start adding stats to them to make them different from eachother and people will be pigeon holed into stances based on stats even if they dislike the feel of the stance. In the end it wouldnt solve anything, since each weapon would still have "mandatory" mods, they'd simply just have new mandatory mods, but it would end up as the same mindless system, with pointless power creep added ontop of it.

The only way to remove mandatory mods from weapons would be if they went with a "Battlefield" approach, where mods are simply QoL upgrades based on player weapon handling preferences. Where the upgrades arent actually needed or used at all in some slots depending on the player using the weapon. But that would on the other hand remove weapon based progression in WF, which just wouldnt really fit the game.

[Sojufueled]

I mostly disagree that there are mandatory mods these days. For instance, I don't use any crit mods on my Felarx. I don't use a base damage mod on many weapons. When I run arcane strike, I don't usually use an attack speed mod. The only 2 mods that I think are kind of squeezing out alternatives are blood rush and weeping wounds.

Part of me feels they should shave off some of blood rush and weeping wounds and roll them into the core combo system. Instead of 40% they should each be 25% with 15% moved to the baseline.

13 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Tying anything to stances would be horrible, since stances do not only come down to pure power, they also come down to how they feel. Start adding stats to them to make them different from eachother and people will be pigeon holed into stances based on stats even if they dislike the feel of the stance.

Too late for this. Stances already have a considerable difference in stats because of the forced procs and the damage multipliers. Some are plainly better than others, not that I think the OP's solution is the way to go.

 

 

 

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, Sojufueled said:

Too late for this. Stances already have a considerable difference in stats because of the forced procs and the damage multipliers. Some are plainly better than others, not that I think the OP's solution is the way to go.

You can still avoid the stances with bad animations though. And the current way stances work, they add the same to all weapons within their class. Add stats and suddenly different weapons within the class would require different stances, meaning some would evenutally end up being forced to use the worst stance due to the stats synergizing with the base attributes of the weapon.

Imagine crit being tied to Swooping Falcon and status tied to Vengeful Revenant. No one in their right mind would ever want to use a status based sword at that point since the stance is so damn bad.

[Hypernaut1]

With a mix of arcanes, galvanized mods, mod sets, rivens, frame buffs, specialty mods, exilus,  etc.... There are definitely different combos of mods that can achieve the same thing.

I'm not sure what magical system of modding you want, but there's variety there if you even attempt to try and understand it. It's not the modding that's mindless, it's the players approach to it. 

Chances are players that only look at the DPS calculator to judge their builds don't understand the many other ways that DPS can be affected through other means, or understand diminishing returns to adding just flat damage. 

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Weapon arcanes make it so you don't need Serration now.

Rivens combine stats so can have room for something else as well. If you're making a viral build, roll something with toxin and crit damage.