Expect swarms of "PLZ NERF X DUVIRI ENEMY/BOSS" when the update releases

[PR1D3]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

They already know that a large swath of their playerbase cannot handle skill based combat, even at low skill ceilings like in TNW, yet they're putting out a whole update with timing based combat.  Which means that even IF that's what you want, it's probably going to be boring.  Given the state combat was in when they showed it off a while ago, I'd say it's probably going to be boring.

But the only take away I got from the release of yet another cinematic trailer for Duviri just a few hours ago was a line about "how many times can a man die?"  Which to me says they're going all in on some souls like nonsense.  Which is also demonstrated through gameplay they've shown, where one of the devs was fighting an enemy that unleashed a massive AOE bullet hell attack, and they died in like 4 hits.

All the evidence currently on hand tells me the combat here is going to be slow, boring, and have enemies with severely overtuned damage, so that if you stop paying attention for 2 seconds due to the tedious slog, you die and start over at a bonfire whatever that technicolor spreader thing is they showed off that serves as a checkpoint.

The only hope I have is that so far, all of their trailers have been full of things that you never see in the game.  So maybe it won't be absolutely annoying to playthrough.  And I'll be the first back in the forums to eat my words if this turns out to be fun by some miracle.  But it looks awful.

It's almost like this is a game based heavily around grind, and people have invested in that grind, and they would like to use that investment during actual important bits of gameplay, and not just cracking relics.

Oohhhh let it flow! I can't wait for more of this on the 26th! I got to make a playlist to listen to while I read them. Benny Hill will definitely be the first song that plays XD

[Maen3]

8 hours ago, Vryheid said:

Any time there's content where you can't bring in your broken endgame Warframe builds as a crutch there's always a subset of players who will get salty about it. You saw it with the Kahl missions and you're absolutely going to see it again with Duviri. 

Nobody said Kahl is difficult, its just incredibly boring.

[Mieo_Mio]

11 hours ago, -Moctezuma- said:

complaining that The New War is too hard, wanting to opt out of the quest because the Drifter combat against regular enemies/archons is too hard for them.

My run through New War wasn't flawless. Seriously, if you can't take a bloody nose, there are plenty of walking simulators out there. Or go play Helldivers and toughen up.

[addamrobin2]

It's going to be

1) broken

2) buggy

3) boring

4) 20+ hotfixes

Have a good day

[WILDBILL212]

11 hours ago, -Moctezuma- said:

I've seen so many posts from people (mostly new but suprisingly long time players aswell) complaining that The New War is too hard, wanting to opt out of the quest because the Drifter combat against regular enemies/archons is too hard for them.

I am 100% sure they are a minority in the playerbase, but they are a loud one and will no doubt DEMAND for Duviri enemies to be nerfed and toned down, aswell as the difficulty of the overall Duviri world, an example of this is when some players got DE to nerf and tone down the level/difficulty of the Zariman quest from 60 to 20 or something like that, even tho most people seemed fine with it.

Like others have said, the majority of players never make it to the New War. They quit long before that, sometimes in the first hour of game play (remember, this is free to play/try, so no reason to continue if you don't like the first hour). These people never even find these forums, so they might seem like a minority.

I think the main complaint about the New War is that once you start it, you can't continue normal play, not that it is too hard. Most players that get stuck in the New War would be content to play warframe months more and never complete the New War. My wife will probably never complete the New War quest and doesn't care one way or the other unless at some point too much of the game is locked away behind it that she wants to play. She has no desire ever to fight an Archon as the drifter. She has the operator now, but doesn't really see the point in using it. 

This is probably the majority of the players (those that haven't completed the New War). I'm not clear on whether existing players need to complete the New War to unlock the drifter and then be able to play the Duviri Paradox or if it will be available to all. If locked behind the New War, then I think that is a huge mistake as it will lock out the majority of the players from the Duviri Paradox.

24 minutes ago, Maen3 said:

Nobody said Kahl is difficult, its just incredibly boring.

Right. I have it unlocked, but have yet to even try it. I read about it in the wiki, watched one video, and nothing about it seemed interesting enough to even play once.

I just might do the same with the Duviri Paradox. I might never even play it besides doing the quest to unlock it and anything else that might be later locked behind it. Same as the quest that unlocked Kahl.

[Zimzala]

9 hours ago, Vryheid said:

... there's always a subset of players who will get salty ...

This is the accurate outlook, IME.

There are those gamers who CHOOSE to be salty about everything, there is no stopping them, these humans have existed since humans could make tools.

Here, the majority will be those that are mad that this latest addition did not give their lives meaning thorough constant punishment by the game bosses, IME, not the ones that want things easier, the salty ones are the ones that want everyone to Sweat.

I enjoy their pain, as I have stated, schadenfreude is my jam, I look forward to anything that makes the game more accessible, because it makes the Sweaty players unhappy.

[WILDBILL212]

16 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

This is the accurate outlook, IME.

There are those gamers who CHOOSE to be salty about everything, there is no stopping them, these humans have existed since humans could make tools.

Here, the majority will be those that are mad that this latest addition did not give their lives meaning thorough constant punishment by the game bosses, IME, not the ones that want things easier, the salty ones are the ones that want everyone to Sweat.

I enjoy their pain, as I have stated, schadenfreude is my jam, I look forward to anything that makes the game more accessible, because it makes the Sweaty players unhappy.

I'm drinking my coffee right now and then I'll read this again and see if it makes sense. Either this is a satirical post or a dead serious post, I'm unable to tell which right now 😀

[Zimzala]

2 minutes ago, WILDBILL212 said:

I'm drinking my coffee right now and then I'll read this again and see if it makes sense. Either this is a satirical post or a dead serious post, I'm unable to tell which right now 😀

Not satire. 😉

Which bit are you having trouble understanding?

Happy to elaborate.

[WILDBILL212]

3 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Not satire. 😉

Which bit are you having trouble understanding?

Happy to elaborate.

Well first I think you made a typo. You said IME, and maybe you meant IMO or IMHO. This got me a bit confused, but maybe it is a new acronym I'm not familiar with.

Then you said schadenfreude. Just looked that up. Not a common word used in the English language. There is another uncommon English word for this: epicaricacy. I didn't know either, so looked them up. 

You are saying that the Diviri Paradox will make the game more accessible to more players. I wasn't aware of that. Can't wait to see how that plays out. 

And yes, if it does, this will upset some of the players that got where they are the hard way, through years of playing this game. That also doesn't bother me one bit, but not sure if I'll get any joy from watching them be unhappy or not 😆

[Zimzala]

13 minutes ago, WILDBILL212 said:

Well first I think you made a typo. You said IME, and maybe you meant IMO or IMHO. This got me a bit confused, but maybe it is a new acronym I'm not familiar with.

Then you said schadenfreude. Just looked that up. Not a common word used in the English language. There is another uncommon English word for this: epicaricacy. I didn't know either, so looked them up. 

You are saying that the Diviri Paradox will make the game more accessible to more players. I wasn't aware of that. Can't wait to see how that plays out. 

And yes, if it does, this will upset some of the players that got where they are the hard way, through years of playing this game. That also doesn't bother me one bit, but not sure if I'll get any joy from watching them be unhappy or not 😆

IME - In My Experience.

What I am saying is that anything that makes the game more accessible to players that at the same time is hated by those players who want everyone to Sweat, makes me happy, I enjoy the pain of those who would gatekeep content.

I am well aware of how much hate those same Sweaty players harbor for me to have this outlook, that just makes me happier. 

So, I will wait, as I always do, for the actual content to hit the street before claiming it is, or is not, this or that.

The thread is based on the idea that the salty voices will be those that want the new additions to be made easier.

IME, those that want everyone to Sweat are the salty posters. For example, those that left after The New War, who could not get past the forced content, were sad they could no longer play a game they enjoyed, more than they were salty. The salty posts came from the Sweaty players yelling 'git gud' and other emotionally immature clap-trap.

This particular game forum allows me a great amount of entertainment from these emotionally immature and sympathy/empathy bereft individuals when they don't get what they want.

Hope that makes things clear.

Happy Gaming!

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Duviri seems multifaceted. I mean, I don't really think we can consider it one simple uniform difficulty. Like doing the starting quest for the Zariman is a very different experience from doing a Void Flood on Steel Path, choosing to fight an Angel. Nor is it the same as going to level cap on Void Cascade. Like the part of Duviri that seems like it will be an alternative start, is probably going to be different to what we spend most of our time in Duviri doing, let alone the different options for the new modes that will be introduced. The difficulty and challenges are likely to be different and dependant on that. Like the Orowyrm boss fight will likely be tougher than the intro quest. 

That all being said, yeah there will likely be people taking issue with the difficulty, or specific instances of difficulty, and various types of complaints, and requests for nerfs. I think we should be careful about how broadly we categorise all of that though. Like the individual who struggles with the difficulty but asks for tips and advice and suggestions, is different than the person who complains, and threatens to quit the game, unless the game changes specifically to their requests. Like even though a lot of peoples complaints can lack nuance, it still exists and not all complaints/criticisms will be the same. Some will be more reasonable and fair than others. 

 

9 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

to be fair, I doubt it takes much for her to get bodied: I remember when they first showed their plans for Eximus weak points, she was struggling hard to hit them.. with a Tigris... a shotgun with among the highest multishot in the game (was at the time at least) and honestly, it was painful to watch... in the end they scrapped that idea (thank god) and we didn't get any changes until MUCH later with Angels of the Zariman, when they added Overguard. as a community manager - and now creative director - she's great, don't get me wrong... but I can think of a thousand other people who would be better for actually demonstrating new gameplay mechanics.

 

Not disagreeing or agreeing one way or the other, but just for additional context, if it matters for you. From what I hear, when they are doing live gameplay in such instances, it is actually quite a bit more difficult than it would be for most players set up, because the monitor they use for such demonstrations, is quite a significant distance away, and its one of many monitors. Brozime talked about the set up they have and how much more difficult it would be, especially as far as more accurate aiming. Its also why the Devs tend to take on a teasing approach to live gameplay demonstrations with each other, (taunting about whether its live demonstration etc) because there is a little bit of extra pressure/difficulty. At least my interpretation from watching Devstreams and such moments. 

Basically I personally wouldn't take such demonstrations as a serious indication of gameplay skill. Rebecca also aced her MR30 test better than a lot of content creators I have seen, and playing games and streaming/talking to an audience is also more difficult than most realise as well. I'd be more willing to believe that people grossly overestimate their skill in such situations. Myself included. I've usually been the best at various games in my circle of friends, PVP, PVE wise, mostly because I have good hand eye coordination, and pattern recognition, but I also tend to be more quiet. My skill deteriorates if I have to try maintain conversation etc

[Vryheid]

1 hour ago, Maen3 said:

Nobody said Kahl is difficult, its just incredibly boring.

What I said is that they're going to complain about being forced to learn new mechanics instead of relying their Warframe for durability and movement tech to play the mode well, not that completing the content will be intrinsically difficult across the board, as that's exactly how some players reacted to the Kahl missions. They could have been learning how to route each level as efficiently as possible, or how to abuse Kahl's movement mechanics, or how to effectively speedrun each boss fight, but instead they complained about it on the forums as being "tedious" or "slow" when it's really just the way the played the game, Then these same players turn around and go on autopilot for 3 hours in an endless Survival farm and somehow that doesn't register to them as "boring".

The roguelike portions of Duviri are going to have exactly the same issues for people. As the Drifter you're not going to be able to turn on an infinitely long Prowl and permanently disable the enemy AI, or repeatedly spam Mesmer Skin to ignore every single enemy attack, or pull out your Archwing and zip to the other end of the map in six seconds. You're going to have to learn to dodge and parry attacks, and to weave their unique melee and movement together, and how to perfectly control whatever weird physics your horse mount ends up having. There's going to be some struggle, there's going to be some growing pains, but players looking to really grind this content out will have to either work through that or be one of the people who get salty and complain on the forums because it doesn't throw reward pinatas in front of their face without any conscious effort on their part. 

Honestly, I'll probably get frustrated the first time I do these missions too, without any real experience I'm sure using the Drifer will feel frail and strange to control. But once I get the hang of things? That's when it's really going to get intense and rewarding. It's why I'm looking forward to the new gameplay of Duviri quite a bit, and I hope it lives up to the expectations.

[sunderthefirmament]

7 minutes ago, Vryheid said:

or how to abuse Kahl's movement mechanics, or how to effectively speedrun each boss fight, but instead they complained about it on the forums as being "tedious" or "slow" when it's really just the way the played the game,

Might I ask what Kahl's movement mechanics are?  Spamming shift and feathering the jetpack, along with the occasional airborne slam to get you down a particularly long Murex hallway?

 

If you saw a lot of criticism about Kahl being "tedious" and "slow," it's because he is.  Mastering his limited movement mechanics isn't enjoyable, though it's basically mandatory if you want to clear the 15 minute challenge on Prison Break.  So I guess in that sense it's at least somewhat rewarding.

 

I sincerely hope that the Drifter content in Duviri is miles ahead of Kahl in terms of depth, design, and QOL.  The little that we've seen does look a lot better.  To be fair though, it would be hard to be worse than Kahl.

[-Moctezuma-]

3 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

it would be hard to be worse than Kahl.

doesn't help that it's been 7 months since the update and it's the same 3 missions over again (the NO GUNS SNEAK is painfully boring), with little to no changes apart from the mini boss figths lol, they could have atleast added diferent missions or even added COOP but nha.

[sunderthefirmament]

1 minute ago, -Moctezuma- said:

doesn't help that it's been 7 months since the update and it's the same 3 missions over again (the NO GUNS SNEAK is painfully boring), with little to no changes apart from the mini boss figths lol, they could have atleast added diferent missions or even added COOP but nha.

You mean environmental puzzles with zero variation on repeat (outside from a different appearance for a glyph here and there) don't age well?  Who would have thought?

 

Sarcasm aside, I hope DE draws enough inspiration from the solid roguelikes out there to make Duviri fantastic.  The variation inherent in most great roguelikes helps smooth over the repetition and prevents it from wearing.  Roguelikes and games-as-a-service seem like a natural fit.  We'll see if DE can pull it off.

[DrivaMain]

6 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

It's almost like this is a game based heavily around grind, and people have invested in that grind, and they would like to use that investment during actual important bits of gameplay, and not just cracking relics.

By the looks of it, the developers don't want that in this update. I like how this new dev team somewhat has the guts to say "NO" to the vocal crowd... for now. Because of how ever-changing Warframe is, I never get attached to one thing too much in Warframe. Today it can be OHMAIGADSTUPIDOP, tomorrow? Trash heap. Chasing variety and not selling my soul to the devils of the META is the way for the sake of my mental energy and personal enjoyment. 

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

12 hours ago, Terroriced said:

For me personally the Archon fights were a bit too easy, but I certainly enjoyed the spectacle of effects. However, I totally understand those who could not beat the missions and were asking for help. DE could lower difficulty per elapsed time or per failed attempt. Thereby The New War would not kill paying customers as it currently does.

It makes no sense to deny bad players, of which there are a lot, to play the game. It makes no sense financially and possible solutions are no act of wizardry that need to yet be invented. There is no we or them dilemma where the game cant be tailored to be enjoyed by different kinds of people. Appealing to a specific target audience is always a choice.

A choice of marketing for example.

 

You would be surprised to find out how many players ignore any text that appears anywhere on screen and any audio transmissions and hints.

You would be surprised to find out how many players cant figure out basic tasks, because they dont know which buttons to press, which mechanics exist or simply what they are supposed to do. This is not a minority, it is unfortunately true for the majority of Warframe players. Most of them dont make it that far to reach The New War.

Most Warframe players are low MR.

 

I can not imagine DE messing up the new starting option for Warframe. Im very much expecting this to be the best change to the game in a very long time.

 

The current tutorial unfortunately fails at a very large amount of points which is mostly due to years of additions that were introduced without keeping an eye on the bigger picture.

Most new players dont know the bullet jump exists. They dont know where the health bar is. They forget that Warframes have abilities. They dont understand that you lose all rewards when you abort an open world mission. They cant find the way back to Cetus. They dont know blueprints exist in the shop, assume the game is pay to win and uninstall.

I know this sounds like a joke, it cant be that bad, right, but it is.

Tbh if those players can't *figure those things out themselves* I dont want them playing Warframe, S#&$ting up the public squads and leeching. It'd be better for everyone overall, if DE ignored those brainless players and didn't to cater to them, dragging the rest of the game down. Brainless players like that aren't the plat buying type 

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

6 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

the developers don't want that in this update.

Why would I care what the developers want?  How is this even any kind of argument?  What do their wants have to do with my enjoyment?  If they like an update, will that suddenly make it more enjoyable for me?

This is not some loving, caring relationship.  The devs are not your friends.  Should game developers care about what they're making?  Yes.  But they need to realize it's still a product.  I don't care if the people at Coke don't want to make Coke anymore, and would rather go in a different direction.  I don't care that Warframe isn't what the devs want to make for this update.  It is genuinely, sincerely, astonishingly so confusing to me that so many of you put what the devs want and like before anything else.  You're all so concerned about them.  I don't wish them ill.  I don't want them to hate their jobs.  But I could not care less if they have some esoteric, eccentric new direction that they want to take the game.  That has nothing to do with what draws me to the game.

And since you, or someone else is going to do the insanely predictable and tired thing that always happens and tell me to play something else:  If they keep down this path of not putting out Warframe, while calling it Warframe, I will go play something else.  And I will complain the whole way out, so go ahead and block me.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

12 hours ago, PR1D3 said:

Oohhhh let it flow! I can't wait for more of this on the 26th! I got to make a playlist to listen to while I read them. Benny Hill will definitely be the first song that plays XD

People reveling in others having a bad time is honestly disgusting.  

[(PSN)rexis12]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

People reveling in others having a bad time is honestly disgusting.  

There's alot of elitism here over the people that apparently feel proud of their 'Skill' and 'Mechanical Knowledge' of a game.

"Can't wait for the casual players that make up the majority of the numbers of the game to whine and complain and hope that DE laughs and don't pander to them."

Like, okay tough guys it's just a game, a poorly balanced game at that. No need to puff out your chest over being skilled in Warframe.

[ImTeijirr]

I don't mind the difficulty at all as long as my drifter doesn't feel weak as S#&$.

I'm thinking about the khall missions that I'm supposed to do to get the archon mods, but he feels just so bad and so weak that I don't think I will ever have the motivation to do it.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

being skilled in Warframe.

There's certainly skill involved in actually mastering movement, and staying mobile in combat.  But a lot of these people want to act like Warframe is a skill based game, when it's basically a more interactive version of Clicker Heroes.  Most of the challenges in this game are actually gear checks.  Like I've said so many times, if I want actual skill-based gameplay, I go do that in another game.  I play this game because it's fast, it's fluid and it scratches a specific itch.  Part of that is because it's a more interactive Clicker Heroes.  It's fancy movement and flashy combat that's simple to blow through as long as you can pass the gear checks.  The last thing I want while I'm just trying to blow stuff up is a poorly replicated version of timing/parry/patience based combat in a game that was built to run like Clicker Heroes.  We do not have the AI or framework for this to work.  And anyone that wants to look can go see that in the combat they posted.

[(PSN)rexis12]

44 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

There's certainly skill involved in actually mastering movement, and staying mobile in combat.  But a lot of these people want to act like Warframe is a skill based game, when it's basically a more interactive version of Clicker Heroes.  Most of the challenges in this game are actually gear checks.  Like I've said so many times, if I want actual skill-based gameplay, I go do that in another game.  I play this game because it's fast, it's fluid and it scratches a specific itch.  Part of that is because it's a more interactive Clicker Heroes.  It's fancy movement and flashy combat that's simple to blow through as long as you can pass the gear checks.  The last thing I want while I'm just trying to blow stuff up is a poorly replicated version of timing/parry/patience based combat in a game that was built to run like Clicker Heroes.  We do not have the AI or framework for this to work.  And anyone that wants to look can go see that in the combat they posted.

The main problem with Warframe will also be the fact that they fail to actually teach, reward, and incentives Mechanics in their games unless it's ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY, and they wonder why people just rush through things when there's no difference between some guy running a Steel Path mission head Shotting everything with a Veldt vs "Just AFK Monkey" things.

And when they do and tried to have 'deeper mechanics' they mess up so bad that they abandoned it in literally the next update. Aka, Operator vs Overguard that failed so bad that they even thought about trying to add Arcanes to fix it but was told to actually fix and balance the damn mechanic instead of band aid plastering it.

So far, despite the initial goal of wanting Operator to be the Anti-Overguard they failed so hard that they never touched it again.

Who knows, maybe they'll teach the mechanic and reward you for it for Duviri, but I doubt it and I'm expecting them to nerf them afterwards because the players learned about the mechanics and they decide that 'Its not in our vision for that to be played that way'.

[Yamazuki]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

But they need to realize it's still a product. 

For some reason people don't ever want to look at games as a product. Then we have the issue of us being labeled as "consumers" rather than "customers". We're expected to consume what ever is given by the creators rather than customers that have paid for a product or service. Add on the issue with "free to play", and then you have people who act like anyone working on a service that is "free" is doing it out of charity despite the fact that isn't true and they are being paid. 

Compromises are inevitable when a studio wants money from a lot of people. If they didn't want that, they could deal with their game only being played by a small number of people and not having a massive studio, as many developers already do.

[Daddy.bulbs]

On 2023-04-13 at 2:21 AM, -Moctezuma- said:

am 100% sure they are a minority in the playerbase

Welp i am also a person that believe %100 they are a minatory in the player base thus resulting in a %200 chance they are a minority thus resulting in them being a minority. There needs to be a normal mode and for me personalty!!!  ---> GIB ME HARD CORE MORE PLEASE DE MAKE ME SUFFER MAKE ME CRY, (Make from software look like a walk in the park- ok maybe not that far)