I wish DE would stop releasing Honeymoon abilities...

[(PSN)magusat999]

This is not an "OP just wants OP frames and weapons post" Its an "Just release the things how you really intend them to be in the first place so we don't have to backtrack later..." post!

What I mean by "Honeymoon" is releasing something amazing and effective just to cash grab, and nerfing it later, after the honeymoon is over. Its not going to change, but I'm just ranting about this habit DE has of releasing a new frame, or a re-work, with no intention of leaving them as effective as they were. I'm not going to list examples, only to point out it dawned on me as I was reading about Khora's LoS nerf. The old Line of Sight nerf is very popular with DE, to the point that if they are going to do it, why not do it from the start? At this stage of the game, I cannot believe for one second that these eventual nerfs were not pre-planned. They release a powerful Warframe because they know people will al want it, then they nerf it. Happens over and over again. Happens with weapons too. I'm just saying - we need more than just a couple weeks with effective items - but if that's not ever going to happen, just be earnest about it and release them how they are going to be in the first place. We invest time, forma, resources and cash in these items AS THEY ARE, expecting a specific result, only to have everything we do get pooped on - is that right?

[Traumtulpe]

You're only seeing one side of the coin - it's reasonable enough to assume, as you did, that DE releases items above the power curve on purpose, but taking a step back, how do you explain the even larger volume of things that flat out suck from day 1?

As the saying goes, never attribute malice when stupidity is just as good an explanation. They are just really, really incompetent at balance.

I could even give you a counter example; DE did away with new weapons having a 5/5 riven disposition (and now we have the exact same issue with the Incarnon weapons, but again, that's most likely just negligence, as opposed to being on purpose).

Edited June 11, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[Skoomaseller]

6 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

You're only seeing one side of the coin - it's reasonable enough to assume, as you did, that DE releases items above the power curve on purpose, but taking a step back, how do you explain the even larger volume of things that flat out suck from day 1?

As the saying goes, never attribute malice when stupidity is just as good an explanation. They are just really, really incompetent at balance.

I could even give you a counter example; DE did away with new weapons having a 5/5 riven disposition (and now we have the exact same issue with the Incarnon weapons, but again, that's most likely just negligence, as opposed to being on purpose).

^ this

DE is more incompetent than anything else when it comes to balance, on one end of the spectrum you have hydroid's entire existence, and on the other end you have mesa, titania, etc 

not limited to frames

[(PSN)magusat999]

19 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

You're only seeing one side of the coin - it's reasonable enough to assume, as you did, that DE releases items above the power curve on purpose, but taking a step back, how do you explain the even larger volume of things that flat out suck from day 1?

As the saying goes, never attribute malice when stupidity is just as good an explanation. They are just really, really incompetent at balance.

I could even give you a counter example; DE did away with new weapons having a 5/5 riven disposition (and now we have the exact same issue with the Incarnon weapons, but again, that's most likely just negligence, as opposed to being on purpose).

Id like to disagree with you, just to be disagreeable - but I have to agree! They need to plan these things out better in the first place.

[SneakyErvin]

They improve more things post release as oppsed to nerf. Khora is an extreme that literally took years before getting nerfed which was the result of AFK gameplay potential, which DE does not like. In this case tied to Steel Path farming. 

You then have frames like Xaku, Protea, Citrine, Lavos, Revenant, Garuda and others that were released strong yet got buffed further because they werent quite there yet. Aswell as gotten small additional updates later on to allow them to do more current content as intended, like with Rev and Mesmer Skin. Same as the reworks for Vauban, Nezha and Ember that turned them from "meh" or low level content wipers to total monsters even in high content. And we can also look at Yareli, quite the wet turd from release and onward, but recieved buffs that actually made her really good, if you enjoy her playstyle.

And it would actually be valueble if you did leave a list of the things you think have gotten nerfed since their release. So far the big ones I can think of have been Wukong and Catchmoon. With Khora as an odd case since she's still as powerful as ever... when LoS checks work as they should that is. But for all of them, the thing that connects them is that they were extreme outliers at the time of their nerfs/changes.

[(PSN)magusat999]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

They improve more things post release as oppsed to nerf. Khora is an extreme that literally took years before getting nerfed which was the result of AFK gameplay potential, which DE does not like. In this case tied to Steel Path farming. 

You then have frames like Xaku, Protea, Citrine, Lavos, Revenant, Garuda and others that were released strong yet got buffed further because they werent quite there yet. Aswell as gotten small additional updates later on to allow them to do more current content as intended, like with Rev and Mesmer Skin. Same as the reworks for Vauban, Nezha and Ember that turned them from "meh" or low level content wipers to total monsters even in high content. And we can also look at Yareli, quite the wet turd from release and onward, but recieved buffs that actually made her really good, if you enjoy her playstyle.

And it would actually be valueble if you did leave a list of the things you think have gotten nerfed since their release. So far the big ones I can think of have been Wukong and Catchmoon. With Khora as an odd case since she's still as powerful as ever... when LoS checks work as they should that is. But for all of them, the thing that connects them is that they were extreme outliers at the time of their nerfs/changes.

I didnt want to list changes because the thread will devolve into arguments about specific changes. Its been going on for years and the list would take several pages. in Khora's case - LoS is something DE gets around to doing to EVERYTHING, so why even start something without it? If Khora's whip is exalted - magical - why not go through walls? And the AFK argument is just tired. We cannot use that to justify everything. AFK means "Away from Keyboard". You cannot and could not be away from keyboard playing Khora. Her whip having punch through had nothing to gain from AFK. If you took your hands off the controller or keyboard. Khora is not able to swing her whip. You need to be ACTIVE and that is not AFK. AFK means you can stand there, turn on an ability and go have a sammich. We needs to stop accepting that excuse for everything.

[SneakyErvin]

15 minutes ago, (PSN)magusat999 said:

I didnt want to list changes because the thread will devolve into arguments about specific changes. Its been going on for years and the list would take several pages. in Khora's case - LoS is something DE gets around to doing to EVERYTHING, so why even start something without it? If Khora's whip is exalted - magical - why not go through walls? And the AFK argument is just tired. We cannot use that to justify everything. AFK means "Away from Keyboard". You cannot and could not be away from keyboard playing Khora. Her whip having punch through had nothing to gain from AFK. If you took your hands off the controller or keyboard. Khora is not able to swing her whip. You need to be ACTIVE and that is not AFK. AFK means you can stand there, turn on an ability and go have a sammich. We needs to stop accepting that excuse for everything.

It was an AFK issue since people were able to actively bot with her since you never needed to see anything in order to kill effectively. This was also part of the Wukong issue, which could be seen in some of the rage coming from the chinese community at the time. For me it is good when games remove options that open the potential for real botting. The big issue with Khora now is that LoS doesnt work well in WF, I mean a huge open door can block LoS for no real reason at times while it also works on other occasions.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

balancing is hard. lately though DE have started to lean more to the power-fantasy side of things: as long as it doesn't allow you to AFK while the game plays itself, then it's fine: that's where the line is so to speak. 

[Hypernaut1]

I wish DE would nerf more frames.....

[Voltage]

29 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

balancing is hard. lately though DE have started to lean more to the power-fantasy side of things: as long as it doesn't allow you to AFK while the game plays itself, then it's fine: that's where the line is so to speak. 

There's plenty of things that enable AFK play that DE leaves as-is; even some things added during The Duviri Paradox. It moreso appears like DE has given up the balance arms race. As long as something isn't fundamentally gamebreaking, they don't seem to be committed to changing it.

14 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I wish DE would nerf more frames.....

I mean they have, in the form of most content restricting Warframe usage.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

And it would actually be valueble if you did leave a list of the things you think have gotten nerfed since their release. So far the big ones I can think of have been Wukong and Catchmoon. With Khora as an odd case since she's still as powerful as ever... when LoS checks work as they should that is. But for all of them, the thing that connects them is that they were extreme outliers at the time of their nerfs/changes.

Wukong's nerf wasn't even that bad and coincided with a buff to his 4 as well. It only really is bad if you try and run only primaries which wasn't even intended. (And you can technically still run dual aoe with glaives at no detriment to yourself).

Wukong is still high A tier (or even S tier) for most missions.

Edited June 11, 2023 by (XBOX)Upl0rdYT

[Traumtulpe]

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

Wukong is still high A tier (or even S tier) for most missions.

Is that really true? I've never used Wukong, I had his prime in the foundry for a long time but the nerf really put me off on ever grabbing him.

When I look at Wukong now I see one ability - Cloud Walker - and nothing else of value, at all. I'd be better off putting parcour velocity shards on pretty much any other frame IMO.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

18 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Is that really true? I've never used Wukong, I had his prime in the foundry for a long time but the nerf really put me off on ever grabbing him.

When I look at Wukong now I see one ability - Cloud Walker - and nothing else of value, at all. I'd be better off putting parcour velocity shards on pretty much any other frame IMO.

His twin is still good (especially if you use something that doesn't require much ammo). If you don't want to focus on ammo at all just give him Nataruk and call it a day or just use primaries because he will simply use your melee. (If you still want to dual aoe with the clone you can also just use a glaive). If you have the augment you get a decent cc that's dirt cheap and is capable of affecting eximus enemies.

Cloud walker is insanely good because it's mobility + healing. 

Defy is good because Wukong is pretty tanky so with Defy and Cloudwalker you'll never have a problem with survivability in 99% of missions including steel path. It also allows Wukong to get energy via Hunter adrenaline.

His 4th ability is fine. It can do stuff and even group enemies, but at this point melee weapons like incarnons are so powerful it's not needed so you can subsume it for a damage boost, more healing, or anything else. 

The passive is also really good because you basically have 3 free stacks of Nidus's undying but with extra buffs like i-frames and invisibility that trigger when undying procs. 

Basically Wukong is a way more useful Inaros.

Edited June 11, 2023 by (XBOX)Upl0rdYT

[Traumtulpe]

10 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

[...]

Maybe it's just my perspective, but I see him very differently.

First of all his passive - I don't plan on dying in the first place, so that doesn't really do anything. And if, for some reason, I found myself using Wukong in a level 9k mission without the proper setup to survive, what good will 3 revives do? Nothing.

His 4th is worse than a melee weapon, which is already worse than a gun, which are worse than (some) abilities. I don't really see the point in using 4th rate stuff that costs energy on top...

Healing might be scarce for a new player, I however am not concerned with getting it from abilities anymore.

To my knowledge Wuclone doesn't use heavy attacks and isn't worth restricting your own weapon usage for.

So that leaves me with something that moves fast and health tanks. My Titania probably does both things better already.

 

[MaxTunnerX]

3 hours ago, (PSN)magusat999 said:

This is not an "OP just wants OP frames and weapons post" Its an "Just release the things how you really intend them to be in the first place so we don't have to backtrack later..." post!

What I mean by "Honeymoon" is releasing something amazing and effective just to cash grab, and nerfing it later, after the honeymoon is over. Its not going to change, but I'm just ranting about this habit DE has of releasing a new frame, or a re-work, with no intention of leaving them as effective as they were. I'm not going to list examples, only to point out it dawned on me as I was reading about Khora's LoS nerf. The old Line of Sight nerf is very popular with DE, to the point that if they are going to do it, why not do it from the start? At this stage of the game, I cannot believe for one second that these eventual nerfs were not pre-planned. They release a powerful Warframe because they know people will al want it, then they nerf it. Happens over and over again. Happens with weapons too. I'm just saying - we need more than just a couple weeks with effective items - but if that's not ever going to happen, just be earnest about it and release them how they are going to be in the first place. We invest time, forma, resources and cash in these items AS THEY ARE, expecting a specific result, only to have everything we do get pooped on - is that right?

Youre really overlooking the fact that at least 50% of new warframes are trash from the very start. I dont think theres any evil motive beyond this, just a complete lack of testing and imagination of what a dedicated player can make out of it. Until proper testing is done, were gonna get OP frames and trash frames randomly and then reworks later whether buff or nerf.

Edited June 11, 2023 by MaxTunnerX

[KaijuKraid]

I think it's funny you bring up Khora as the example. She doesn't fit your example at all while frames like Gyre does.

Khora's release was at the time considered by the public and everyone to be one of the weakest Warframe releases in the entire game. Khora was then hotfixed to be a lot better about a week later. Accumalating Whipclaw came out slightly later to help her out even more. Pilfering Strangledome, the Xoris and Steel Path were what really set the Khora train in action for people.  

She was nerfed two years after her release with the Line of Sight change, very aggressively. They did dial it back slightly four months later, making her VERY playable again. Seriously, if you don't believe me, read the list of all her changes! 

[stormy505]

The most out of line one for me was the styanax nerf to being able to continuously ult. It wasn't broken. It was very fun. And de took issue with that and removed it.

The ammo economy nerf is a close second though. I agree to an extent that some sort of nerf was necessary, but there was a ton of bystander weapons caught in the cross fire just trying to exist. Also has kinda ruined explosive weapons for me due to just how fast they run dry. 

Still hoping for an ammo revert and instead self damage, stagger, or just more targeted nerfs instead of a shotgun spray hitting random weapons.

[Cerikus]

29 minutes ago, MaxTunnerX said:

at least 50% of new warframes are trash from the very start

Define trash. Because no matter how we look at it, you are wrong.
I would also like to know which of the new Warframes are trash in you opinion.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Cerikus

[quxier]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

the result of AFK gameplay potential, which DE does not like. In this case tied to Steel Path farming. 

You then have frames like Xaku,

which is frame meant to be afk. They let us "afk more" yet ban active gameplay (2nd recasting). I still don't get how they could say that they hate AFK while doing such stuff to Xaku. It's illogical.

31 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

The most out of line one for me was the styanax nerf to being able to continuously ult. It wasn't broken. It was very fun. And de took issue with that and removed it.

With Helminth I could fly for 8 seconds and ~100 meters (more with some speed abilities but I've not tested it in more open worlds).

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And it would actually be valueble if you did leave a list of the things you think have gotten nerfed since their release. So far the big ones I can think of have been Wukong and Catchmoon. With Khora as an odd case since she's still as powerful as ever... when LoS checks work as they should that is. But for all of them, the thing that connects them is that they were extreme outliers at the time of their nerfs/changes.

Styanax not being able to cast any (helminth as well) ability during 4th and that he cannot recast 4th. Yet (not nerf) he jumps while using 1st.

Gyre nerf to number of attacks of 4th while giving us augment later.

Xaku cannot recast GoL (2nd) with maxed gun. It could for some time. It was changed, afair, just because it's similar to Loki (sigh).

That what I know from recent frames releases.

[Felsagger]

4 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

You're only seeing one side of the coin - it's reasonable enough to assume, as you did, that DE releases items above the power curve on purpose, but taking a step back, how do you explain the even larger volume of things that flat out suck from day 1?

As the saying goes, never attribute malice when stupidity is just as good an explanation. They are just really, really incompetent at balance.

I could even give you a counterexample; DE did away with new weapons having a 5/5 riven disposition (and now we have the exact same issue with the Incarnon weapons, but again, that's most likely just negligence, as opposed to being on purpose).

 

People, let me present you what COMMON SENSE does for humans. 

Common sense makes humans look smart and intelligent, and make them SMART and intelligent when common sense is practiced during long periods of time consistently. 

This post quoted here is an example. 

 

Sidenote: 

Traum, DE wants to sell you the same thing over and over again like the philosophy of Microsoft's founder Bill Gates. "Don't sell the product people want, make people buy the product YOU HAVE". 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Felsagger

[Tiltskillet]

 

4 hours ago, (PSN)magusat999 said:

What I mean by "Honeymoon" is releasing something amazing and effective just to cash grab, and nerfing it later, after the honeymoon is over. Its not going to change, but I'm just ranting about this habit DE has of releasing a new frame, or a re-work, with no intention of leaving them as effective as they were.

Odd topic, since DE just as often or more often has had things underpowered on release or overpowered and not touched for years.  Or overpowered for years and still not touched.   Leaving aside the subject of intentionality since it's all speculation, the number of times they've gone the direction you're complaining about seems to me like it's decreased the last few years.

Anyway, you're attributing to DE some skill at balancing and ability to plan around that balance that I would not say are their strong points.  To put it politely.

[cute_moth.npc]

I don't think it's intentional beyond the effects of spending your balance team budget on having more artists to make Warframe skins :)

[gamingchair1121]

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Is that really true? I've never used Wukong, I had his prime in the foundry for a long time but the nerf really put me off on ever grabbing him.

When I look at Wukong now I see one ability - Cloud Walker - and nothing else of value, at all. I'd be better off putting parcour velocity shards on pretty much any other frame IMO.

yeah wukong is really good

his passive is pretty meh, not like you can die with him anyway

clone is in an absolutely terrible state, barely does anything, probably can't even kill fodder enemies, basically his helminth slot

cloud walker is the most boring ability in the game, so I only use it for the heal and stun, pretty good though

defy is really good, does a bit of damage, especially with armor strip, and saves you an arcane slot that would normally be used for guardian

the staff is where most of his power is at. given you know how to mod it, its so strong that it kills steel path enemies in 1-2 hits. the lack of slash can hold it back at bit when facing eximus in the higher levels, but that's where pillage comes in (over clone obviously). since wukong already needs a good bit of strength, pillage's armor strip will be at least 40%, so just cast it twice on an eximus to remove most of their armor. with some other things he like archon continuity, you can use a panzer and mod rad/toxin on the staff to get most of the elements you normally use across all factions all in one build.

sure you could do the same with a normal weapon, but if you just want to use monkey stick, its really good

[SneakyErvin]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

Wukong's nerf wasn't even that bad and coincided with a buff to his 4 as well. It only really is bad if you try and run only primaries which wasn't even intended. 

Wukong is still high A tier (or even S tier) for most missions.

Yep very true. The main change was that we can no longer rely on the clone to do the job. It still helps with annihilating bosses and other heavy targets by commanding it. We just have to be more careful what weapons we use.

1 hour ago, quxier said:

which is frame meant to be afk. They let us "afk more" yet ban active gameplay (2nd recasting). I still don't get how they could say that they hate AFK while doing such stuff to Xaku. It's illogical.

With Helminth I could fly for 8 seconds and ~100 meters (more with some speed abilities but I've not tested it in more open worlds).

Styanax not being able to cast any (helminth as well) ability during 4th and that he cannot recast 4th. Yet (not nerf) he jumps while using 1st.

Gyre nerf to number of attacks of 4th while giving us augment later.

Xaku cannot recast GoL (2nd) with maxed gun. It could for some time. It was changed, afair, just because it's similar to Loki (sigh).

That what I know from recent frames releases.

Xaku takes quite active gameplay. You need to position yourself for good debuffs and you need to maintain the 4th skill in order to maintain the others. You likely also want to move around alot so less bullets need to be dodged by his evasion etc. And if you want full insanity of destruction you'll likely have breach surge on Xaku, which makes the frame even more of a very active AoE monster.

While the changes to Styanax sucked I'm quite sure his intended way to work is what we have now. So it was a bug fix in the end. Yeah it was hilariously fun flying all the time and it was nice to circumvent his cast times, but none of it seemed intended, atleast not the part where we could circumvent the cast times of his otherwise slow skills. edit: Also to be fair. None of it reduced his actual power, it just removed some fun in him.

Gyre was indeed a mess of a change and their reasoning for it was bad. There are several ways it could have been changed without removing damage, like baking the augment into it along with the nerfs they did.

Xaku not being able to recast is for me not a nerf. It was a positive change on a change since you no longer need to make sure there are as many or more enemies to disarm in order to keep current number of weapons or gain more. Now you can just cast it until it is full with no penalty. Xaku went from "oh I'm screwed cos I missed a few mobs" to "oh I'm scrweded cos I missed a few mobs but can try again" to "eh I'll max it on the next cast". Which also made it much more forgiving to spam since there is no error. I personally hated Xaku at release and with the first recastable Lohk change to the point where I had him shelved, when they made the second change I started to play the frame and enjoy it. If they were to revert it back to iteration two I'd likely drop the frame again.

Edited June 11, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[MaxTunnerX]

1 hour ago, Cerikus said:

Define trash. Because no matter how we look at it, you are wrong.
I would also like to know which of the new Warframes are trash in you opinion.

How about voruna and styanax huh? I bet you havent even played them since u mastered them, just like majority of people. They just cant compare to wukong, wisp, revenant, xaku, ash and such. Citrine possibly can, but that only proves my point. And if its not OP its automatically trash because why bother investing time and effort when something else already works great right off the shelf. And if youre looking for a different definition of trash, then its a frame that you dont see in any missions after the first week/weeks post launch.

Edited June 11, 2023 by MaxTunnerX