Echoes of Duviri - Community QOL Improvements & Changes

[Joezone619]

4 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

Puncture Changes:
Weakened Status Effect Buffs:

• Increased the debuff to enemy attacks from 30% to 40% on the first stack.
• Reduced the maximum amount of stacks from 10 to 5.
• Increased the per-stack debuff from 5% to 10%. 
• Increased the total debuff at Max Stacks from 75% to 80%

Ima be honest, you can buff all of these to 1,000,000% and i still wont use it. Whats the point in reducing enemy damage if the enemy dies in 1 hit or if enemies barely do damage in the first place? So in other words puncture needs a new gimmick entirely.

[MrWrightPlays]

7 minutes ago, Casardis said:

It would be great for DE to confirm, but from my understanding, what you wrote is multiplicative, not additive.

Additive is like Arcane Avenger and Harrow (which you used in your earlier question), which is a flat crit boost to the total crit. The detail that it's added AFTER mod calculation is to prevent the additive boost from benefit from the multiplying factor of mods.

An example with a weapon that has 11% crit chance and Critical Delay would be:

Base Crit (11%) + Critical Delay (11% × 2.0 = 22%) = 33%

Then you add 25% to that 33% for a total of 58% crit chance.

This is a bit of a broader problem, but I do hate how we as a community refer to specific things as "additive" or "multiplicative". Damage mods like Serration or Hornet Strike or Condition Overload are called Additive, but then other mods that do effectively the same thing but for Critical Chance are then referred to as Multiplicative. Just kinda muddies the water that Additive for Critical Chance is a completely different concept than Additive for Damage, which is why I tend to just refer to any mod bonuses (that aren't faction mods) as Additive. Rant over, sorry if it seems targeted, isn't meant to come off that way.

[IDystopiaI]

33 minutes ago, MrWrightPlays said:

Since you seem to understand it then, does that mean it's additive with mods? So like the 25% would add with the 200% bonus from Critical Delay type mods, only going up to a total of 225%? Seems like some people in this thread think it works differently, I just want to make sure we're all on the same page

*Puncture looks like it will function similar to Arcane Avenger.

 

It's a bonus to crit damage taken not a bonus to crit chance like Arcane Avenger. The way it's written makes it look like if your modded Crit Damage is 3.0, then with max cold procs, it would go up to 3.5 Crit damage.

[MrWrightPlays]

2 minutes ago, IDystopiaI said:

It's a bonus to crit damage taken not a bonus to crit chance like Arcane Avenger. The way it's written makes it look like if your modded Crit Damage is 3.0, then with max cold procs, it would go up to 3.5 Crit damage.

Gotcha, if that is the case then that does suck pretty bad for most weapons that care about critting

[Gathintor]

I really expected more of a rework in the states of impact, perforation, nobody uses those states, what most prefer is viral, cutting, heat, even corrosive, with all due respect, but these changes were not necessary at all

[CraigEge]

4 hours ago, Casardis said:

These are some amazing accessiblity changes! With how customizable the numbers are, it can be great for build testing too, so you can see the exact number filling the screen. On the other hand, smaller and compact options allow for much smoother visual clarity in gameplay, much needed to enjoy the wonderful effects in WF without the numbers cluttering.

That said, on the subject of clarity and accessibility visual options for clarity, can you consider a slider for SCREEN SHAKE in the future? A number of effects and presentation rely on screen shake, but it's sometimes overdone on others. Similar to Bloom years ago, it would benefit a lot to have a slider instead of a toggle.

 

[Do_High_Go]

On 2023-07-24 at 10:59 PM, Redrigoth said:

The goal of that post is to promote build diversity and make different play styles viable. It also takes into account level 1000+ SP enemies. How many weapons are basically useless now? They can become relevant again because of their innate blast or cold. Or the ones with horrible base crit can have more options for flat crit. Or impact only melees can have a place against corpus.

The goal of needing corrosive heat and puncture all together is to make weapons viable for killing highly scaled armored enemies. Right now you either need a frame with full strip into the same old aoe nuke weapons or vastilok shattering impact for single targets, or slash viral aoe as usual. the 90% reduction is still not strong enough for enemies with 100k armor. AOE slash viral is already a thing.

And what's broken about blast being a hybrid viral/mag? If having viral against grineer or pure magnetic if not toxin against corpus is not broken, what is broken with having 50-160% hybrid instead of 100-300% specific which may as well be universal in grineer only tiles?

Impact suggestion is to make non-slash melees good. maybe take hammers to corpus maps. You can have magnetic impact as an alternative way to kill corpus rather than toxin.

And you say you can have viral cold on the same enemy as if that's my point. My point is to be able to make much more weapons and styles viable not more viral builds on the same old stuff getting a slight damage boost from random cold procs.

Hard reset is trash. In high level that sentinel is gonna die constantly. Elec procs will kill it, aoe will kill it. You supposed to set up 5 enemies for mercy without overshooting just so you can rez the sentinel again for a few minutes before it dies more? Nah, make it actually usable in high levels.

 Just no mate. The goal of that post might be with good intentions, but it reeks of copium. The end result is not making More weapons viable, it is making some specific weapons and builds the author already has in mind to exploit it viable. A weapon is as useless as it's user, you can kill level cap enemies with MK-1 weapons (prior to incarnon adapters even)  if you know what you are doing, or are MK-1 meta now?

So you want Puncture Corrosive And Heat, but many builds and weapons can't do that because of innate elements or lack of puncture sooo, how does that help weapon choice diversity? Lets be clear here, you want Incarnon Latron, but for every weapon? So balanced! It is silly to expect to go vs lvl 1k (or level cap) enemies but also demand for an easy 1-2-3 build for any weapon that will be able to deal with said heavily armored enemies. That is why you are allowed to bring 3 weapons, each with a purpose. Thinking that it is too much to subsume Armor strip on your frame of choice when you are going vs high level armored enemies is just so entitled. It is like asking your professor to let you use Wolfram to solve the Matrix you have to solve on paper for the exam, when you went on an exam for High Mathematics.

You said it - Innate Blast or Cold. So with those suggestions, you can make a viral Halikar Wraith and Uga Buga 450% Hp damage around the map, and even shields are not gonna stop you, balanced right? Or a Lenz or a Glaxion that will red crit out of their own butt.... and don't get me started on the easy abuse with Litch/Sister weapons.

Have you any idea how many stacks of that fictional impact + magnetic you would need vs a lvl 1k or even 9K Shielded enemy? You would rather mod Magnetic that requires 2 elements so 2 mod slots, rather than Toxin that is a single Prime mod for Melee and will kill the enemy after 2 seconds DoT? Sure if you hate build diversity, but isn't the point exactly the opposite? Less mod space=Less diversity.

You compared Cold and Viral, as if people have to choose either one or the other, so yeah. It IS making more weapons viable, or more like - other weapons and frames will make other weapons viable by simply being used. If your point was what you say it was, you did a poor job expressing it, because it came out as Viral advertisement, and im sure you accidentally converted at least one person to Viral meta with that :D

Hard Reset may not be great, but it is not trash, you just have to know what you are doing and actually play the game with like 20% more concentration when you need to activate the effect, i guess that does make it trash nowdays huh...  Your sentinel dies? You get Proced with Electric? Sure AoE, but still, I have gone to lvl 2.5k without losing my sentinel and needing to do the Hard Reset.

Those Sentinel suggestions are actually pointless, we will be getting pet rework this year (realistically probably early next year) so making a change like that Now, based on biased feedback would be a plain waste of dev time.

Lastly, i do not need another explanation of the idea behind those proposed changes in the post you pointed to, I get the point, the cause is good, but the ideas are just... obvious, very exploitable, dare say lazy and biased. Those ideas had barely a row of explanation of the mechanic, and then 4 rows of bad chat GPT marketing pitch slapped behind - it makes sense, but only in a vacuum and to someone unfamiliar with other variables. I personally do not approve of those ideas being classified as "Reasonable" and "Balanced" and i said why - because they are not.

 

 

On 2023-07-24 at 11:21 PM, MrWrightPlays said:

Since you seem to understand it then, does that mean it's additive with mods? So like the 25% would add with the 200% bonus from Critical Delay type mods, only going up to a total of 225%? Seems like some people in this thread think it works differently, I just want to make sure we're all on the same page

Additive After Mods, meaning it is similar to how Arcane Avenger adds 45% CR. F.E. A Kuva Nukor having 5% CR vs enemy with maxed Puncture will have 30% CR, if you have moded for CR you will have 15% CR, so after Puncture it becomes 40%. Same for the Cold and CD. Tho i have to say, now that i read it again, it is a bit unclear if it is flat 25%CR, but considering the CD is Flat, so should the CR be flat too, otherwise is way too little and makes no sense.

[MrWrightPlays]

1 minute ago, Do_High_Go said:

Additive After Mods, meaning it is similar to how Arcane Avenger adds 45% CR. F.E. A Kuva Nukor having 5% CR vs enemy with maxed Puncture will have 30% CR, if you have moded for CR you will have 15% CR, so after Puncture it becomes 40%. Same for the Cold and CD. Tho i have to say, now that i read it again, it is a bit unclear if it is flat 25%CR, but considering the CD is Flat, so should the CR be flat too, otherwise is way too little and makes no sense.

Yeah, the Crit Damage is mostly what confused me, displaying it as a percentage rather than a flat .5x increase to CD muddies how it's meant to be read a bit

[ArcusVeles]

These are cool changes, but now I feel even stronger than ever about incarnons (and the heat melee decree) that put Heat into a weapon's mix and muddle efforts to intentionally build for a single, unfused element.  I feel like weapon state changes like that (and the heat decree) shouldn't mix their elements in with the existing modding of a weapon.

[Tiltskillet]

15 minutes ago, IDystopiaI said:

*Puncture looks like it will function similar to Arcane Avenger.

 

It's a bonus to crit damage taken not a bonus to crit chance like Arcane Avenger. The way it's written makes it look like if your modded Crit Damage is 3.0, then with max cold procs, it would go up to 3.5 Crit damage.

So I interpreted those differently.  By... "additive after Mods, not before" I thought they meant "additive -with- standard mod crit chance / crit multiplier", i.e., on the same layer.  So max puncture = +25% CC.  On a weapon with 20% base CC, that would be  25% CC.  With Crit Delay's +200% it's 60%.  With both it's +225%, so 65%.

I could be wrong.  I hope I'm wrong! (At least from a lizard brain, "I'd love to have another 25% CC on the Veldt after mods" standpoint.)  But that's what I assumed they meant.

@[DE]Taylor, @[DE]Momaw  how are the new crit-related bonuses for Puncture and Cold working exactly?

 

[(XBOX)STHking15]

I have two things I wanna ask about the ability colors, firstly is that gyres abilities can crit unlike other warframes, will there be a way to differentiate the crits on her abilities? and my second question is will we eventually get colors for proc damage like bleeds fire damage etc.? 

[IDystopiaI]

36 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

So I interpreted those differently.  By... "additive after Mods, not before" I thought they meant "additive -with- standard mod crit chance / crit multiplier", i.e., on the same layer.  So max puncture = +25% CC.  On a weapon with 20% base CC, that would be  25% CC.  With Crit Delay's +200% it's 60%.  With both it's +225%, so 65%.

I could be wrong.  I hope I'm wrong! (At least from a lizard brain, "I'd love to have another 25% CC on the Veldt after mods" standpoint.)  But that's what I assumed they meant.

@[DE]Taylor, @[DE]Momaw  how are the new crit-related bonuses for Puncture and Cold working exactly?

 

Reading the change to Puncture specifically, it looks like it functions as a Debuff to enemies, where instead of needing 100% Crit chance to guarantee a crit, it looks like that breakpoint is changed to 75% Crit modded Crit Chance results in a guaranteed T1 Crit. If I'm interpreting that correctly then it looks like a pretty big buff for Harrow. Clarification  on this would be helpful though.  

Probably only applies once (175% = T2 Crit), and not per Crit Tier though (150% = T2 Crit). Either way, it still makes it easier to hit another break point.

6 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

Increases Critical Chance threshold on enemy by 5% per Stack, to a maximum of 25% at 5 Stacks.

 

[Redrigoth]

1 hour ago, Do_High_Go said:

 Just no mate. The goal of that post might be with good intentions, but it reeks of copium. The end result is not making More weapons viable, it is making some specific weapons and builds the author already has in mind to exploit it viable. A weapon is as useless as it's user, you can kill level cap enemies with MK-1 weapons (prior to incarnon adapters even)  if you know what you are doing, or are MK-1 meta now?

So you want Puncture Corrosive And Heat, but many builds and weapons can't do that because of innate elements or lack of puncture sooo, how does that help weapon choice diversity? Lets be clear here, you want Incarnon Latron, but for every weapon? So balanced! It is silly to expect to go vs lvl 1k (or level cap) enemies but also demand for an easy 1-2-3 build for any weapon that will be able to deal with said heavily armored enemies. That is why you are allowed to bring 3 weapons, each with a purpose. Thinking that it is too much to subsume Armor strip on your frame of choice when you are going vs high level armored enemies is just so entitled. It is like asking your professor to let you use Wolfram to solve the Matrix you have to solve on paper for the exam, when you went on an exam for High Mathematics.

You said it - Innate Blast or Cold. So with those suggestions, you can make a viral Halikar Wraith and Uga Buga 450% Hp damage around the map, and even shields are not gonna stop you, balanced right? Or a Lenz or a Glaxion that will red crit out of their own butt.... and don't get me started on the easy abuse with Litch/Sister weapons.

Have you any idea how many stacks of that fictional impact + magnetic you would need vs a lvl 1k or even 9K Shielded enemy? You would rather mod Magnetic that requires 2 elements so 2 mod slots, rather than Toxin that is a single Prime mod for Melee and will kill the enemy after 2 seconds DoT? Sure if you hate build diversity, but isn't the point exactly the opposite? Less mod space=Less diversity.

You compared Cold and Viral, as if people have to choose either one or the other, so yeah. It IS making more weapons viable, or more like - other weapons and frames will make other weapons viable by simply being used. If your point was what you say it was, you did a poor job expressing it, because it came out as Viral advertisement, and im sure you accidentally converted at least one person to Viral meta with that :D

Hard Reset may not be great, but it is not trash, you just have to know what you are doing and actually play the game with like 20% more concentration when you need to activate the effect, i guess that does make it trash nowdays huh...  Your sentinel dies? You get Proced with Electric? Sure AoE, but still, I have gone to lvl 2.5k without losing my sentinel and needing to do the Hard Reset.

Those Sentinel suggestions are actually pointless, we will be getting pet rework this year (realistically probably early next year) so making a change like that Now, based on biased feedback would be a plain waste of dev time.

Lastly, i do not need another explanation of the idea behind those proposed changes in the post you pointed to, I get the point, the cause is good, but the ideas are just... obvious, very exploitable, dare say lazy and biased. Those ideas had barely a row of explanation of the mechanic, and then 4 rows of bad chat GPT marketing pitch slapped behind - it makes sense, but only in a vacuum and to someone unfamiliar with other variables. I personally do not approve of those ideas being classified as "Reasonable" and "Balanced" and i said why - because they are not.

 

Glaive has forced slash procs, so what if halikar does a little extra flat damage? Maybe then people might bother to use it. That's the point.

And glaxion gets more crit? Good. Make more incentive to use it. Single target beam, Maybe hits 3 enemies with punch-through.

Bramma has high crit and status out the ass with bomblets. Lenz alternative would get 30% more crit but a little less status and this after 10 stacking cold? Where's the issue?

And why tf do we need to be locked into the helminth armor strip path? What if we want to play with something else but still do actual damage to high armored enemies with single target rifles?

And why would lich and sister weapons break? Maybe bramma does a little extra damage from its slash and toxin procs? Atleast all the others that are unused become just as viable.

And your justification for not needing improvements to all the unused junk is that you can kill a lv9999 with a Mk1? After how much setup? Dedicating all the mods and slots just to force a crappy weapon to become half as good as meta weapons?

Why don't you suggest actual improvements that can get us out of the slash viral or armor strip meta? And what's up with this stupid mindset that acts like any reworks have to be exactly as described to the letter without any tuning for different weapon types? Or that they have to be implemented right now before pet rework? You're one of those people that just complain without offering anything of value. "hhnnnggg! everything is fine stop complaining!" every time someone brings up an issue or suggests improvements

[Damocles]

6 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

Prioritized Critical Hits
Player damage output varies wildly from damage over time (DOT) from Status Effects to powerful Critical Hits. Previously all types of Damage were treated the same in the Damage Number cycle: Critical Hit Damage Numbers often disappeared quickly if many small DOT procs were happening concurrently. From a gameplay side, this had no impact on the damage done to your enemies, but it meant the true impact of your Critical Hits was only sometimes communicated to you as clearly as we would like.

Now, your Critical Hits will be prioritized over smaller damage numbers. Those smaller numbers will still appear but disappear sooner if higher-priority damage is done. Additionally, this prioritization system applies to Critical Hit Tiers as well, meaning Super Critical Hit Damage Numbers will linger longer than regular Critical Hits.

That's great but something that would be better for the user and more scalable would be: each enemy produces 1 number on the screen, multishot and repeated hits increase the number (stacking damage number) so the player can see how much total damage they're doing so long as they're rapidly firing or multishotting. We know we'll never run out of numbers, and we can even give DOTs their own smaller second number, so each enemy will consume no more memory/cpu footprint than 2 numbers per enemy.
 

6 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

Weakened Status Effect Additions:

• Increases Critical Chance threshold on enemy by 5% per Stack, to a maximum of 25% at 5 Stacks. This is additive after Mods, not before. Does not apply to Abilities or AOE damage. 

Is this puncture critical chance increasing the final chance by 25% flat, or modded critical chance? If I have an unmodded 50% dread, does full puncture make it 75% or 62.5%?

6 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

Freeze Status Effect Additions:

• Increased the Critical Damage taken by an enemy by 10% on initial Status Effect. Subsequent Stacks increase this debuff by 5%, up to a maximum of 50%. This is additive after Mods, not before.

Does this mean my weapon is deals 50% more modded damage, or the final critical damage number will be multiplied by 1.5x?

[(PSN)rexis12]

Cool actual buffs to weak status effects, even if minimal it's better than either nothing or the community thinking that nerfing Slash and Viral would magically make the others better.

Rad!

[Tiltskillet]

41 minutes ago, IDystopiaI said:

Reading the change to Puncture specifically, it looks like it functions as a Debuff to enemies, where instead of needing 100% Crit chance to guarantee a crit, it looks like that breakpoint is changed to 75% Crit modded Crit Chance results in a guaranteed T1 Crit. If I'm interpreting that correctly then it looks like a pretty big buff for Harrow. Clarification  on this would be helpful though.  

Probably only applies once (175% = T2 Crit), and not per Crit Tier though (150% = T2 Crit). Either way, it still makes it easier to hit another break point.

 

Oh wow, that's a fourth way to interpret it.  I think you've got a strong case, just considering the wording.  It's odd that DE would choose yet another way to muck about with crit though. 

Ok, it's actually not odd. 

 

[xcrimsonlegendx]

Please tell me the remaining Tennogen items that were excluded from the last two updates will be included, I still need that Kuva pump chest armor.

[(PSN)rexis12]

28 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Oh wow, that's a fourth way to interpret it.  I think you've got a strong case, just considering the wording.  It's odd that DE would choose yet another way to muck about with crit though. 

Ok, it's actually not odd. 

 

It's an interesting buff and might actually have people more likely to run Piercing Roar if it allows for what is an on demand R3 Avenger.

Though I do have to say, it does come with the caveat of them surviving 5 Puncture Procs for it to be effective.

 

Also speaking of Crits, weird request but can we have Gyre's Passive affect Abilities throufh Helmith?

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

I'm definitely not against the status changes, definitely will add some oomph to weapons that use cold, do I expect it to replace viral? No, but if u using a primer, or nourish might be worth considering using cold. Puncture change is also fine unless u a devastating attrition user. Look overall fine imo. Impact is still underwhelming but everyone can't be winners, but a buff is a buff.

[IDystopiaI]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)Dyin-Kyo said:

I'm definitely not against the status changes, definitely will add some oomph to weapons that use cold, do I expect it to replace viral? No, but if u using a primer, or nourish might be worth considering using cold. Puncture change is also fine unless u a devastating attrition user. Look overall fine imo. Impact is still underwhelming but everyone can't be winners, but a buff is a buff.

The biggest impact would be in Duviri where you get cold status for free if you roll that Decree. There are other issues with Duviri though like trying to keep objectives alive because anything with Overshield ignores CC. if you're procing cold you're killing the few enemies in front of you slightly faster, but the rest of the map isn't slowing down and will continue to kill the objective while you're focused on a small group.

[AlbrechtEntrati]

I like most of the changes, but the OG incarnons are really taking a big hit here, I reckon this will be their way of nerfing them. With the puncture proc cc buff, Devastating/Devouring Attrition would diminish a lot. I thought DE was encouraging us to build for non-crit/status-based builds more with the introduction of them, turns out it was just a mirage after all, we will be forever stuck with this crit-hm-viral-slash-heat meta. Look at the damage number change as well, there's no mention of the small white damage numbers dealt by weapons like the OG incarnons and status built weapons. What about their oomph? 

As for the underwhelming impact proc change, I understand where they are coming from. Just take a quick glance at the sheer amount of weapons that forces impact proc vs slash/puncture, they can't effectively buff impact status without unintentionally buffing all these weapons, that's why it'll always be underwhelming and wimpy until they decide to finally sit down and take a serious look at everything. 

[hyzmarca]

38 minutes ago, IDystopiaI said:

The biggest impact would be in Duviri where you get cold status for free if you roll that Decree. There are other issues with Duviri though like trying to keep objectives alive because anything with Overshield ignores CC. if you're procing cold you're killing the few enemies in front of you slightly faster, but the rest of the map isn't slowing down and will continue to kill the objective while you're focused on a small group.

Eh.  I've been able to three man level 9999 duviri defense no problem.    Hard CC doesn't work on overguard,  but AI manipulation and obstacles do.  Anything that makes enemies fight each other works pretty well. Revenant's Enthrall,   Xaku's Accuse.  Nyx's Chaos.   Resonator works extremely well at distracting enemies. Combine that with Contagious Spread and a lot of status and you've got large groups of enemies being bled to death while being too distracted to shoot the defense target.    

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

10 minutes ago, Encinos said:

I like most of the changes, but the OG incarnons are really taking a big hit here, I reckon this will be their way of nerfing them. With the puncture proc cc buff, Devastating/Devouring Attrition would diminish a lot. I thought DE was encouraging us to build for non-crit/status-based builds more with the introduction of them, turns out it was just a mirage after all, we will be forever stuck with this crit-hm-viral-slash-heat meta. Look at the damage number change as well, there's no mention of the small white damage numbers dealt by weapons like the OG incarnons and status built weapons. What about their oomph? 

As for the underwhelming impact proc change, I understand where they are coming from. Just take a quick glance at the sheer amount of weapons that forces impact proc vs slash/puncture, they can't effectively buff impact status without unintentionally buffing all these weapons, that's why it'll always be underwhelming and wimpy until they decide to finally sit down and take a serious look at everything. 

Laetum will be fine, it's just felarx and phenmor.

[IDystopiaI]

20 hours ago, hyzmarca said:

Eh.  I've been able to three man level 9999 duviri defense no problem.    Hard CC doesn't work on overguard,  but AI manipulation and obstacles do.  Anything that makes enemies fight each other works pretty well. Revenant's Enthrall,   Xaku's Accuse.  Nyx's Chaos.   Resonator works extremely well at distracting enemies. Combine that with Contagious Spread and a lot of status and you've got large groups of enemies being bled to death while being too distracted to shoot the defense target.    

There's the awkward point where enemies die too fast to make Contagious Spread usable for spreading CC status effects like Radiation, Cold or Electric. The other alternatives like Thralls, Shadows etc... are okay but they require specific loadouts to have access to them. Cold is the only status that Duviri gives you as a Decree (with CC properties that also effect Eximus/Overguard), but it's also easy enough for other elements like Radiation to be added in with new Decrees as a source of CC/Pseudo-CC. We aren't going to see an ability like Mind Control added in as a Decree, and work arounds for doing content without a specific warframe should exist even if they aren't optimal.

[Tiltskillet]

27 minutes ago, Encinos said:

I like most of the changes, but the OG incarnons are really taking a big hit here, I reckon this will be their way of nerfing them. With the puncture proc cc buff, Devastating/Devouring Attrition would diminish a lot.

If the puncture proc is actually a reduction in crit threshold like @IDystopiaI is guessing, than it won't really matter for those builds except in situations they're already suffering...for instance, with Harrow giving crit chance.    If it's additive with standard crit bonuses, then it's a nerf but not what I'd call a big one considering how crazy Attrition is.  If it's what the wiki calls an absolute bonus, like Avenger, then it's a big nerf to the standard  Felarx build.  Smaller nerf to Phenmor, since it only has puncture on non-Incarnon.  Only an indirect nerf to Laetum which has no puncture, but would be affected by puncture from other sources.