Can DE make something close to armored core ?

[Sweg178]

Just recently watched the armored core 6 gameplay and I gotta say the mechs felt like they have a shocking resemblance with our necramech. It would be awesome if we could do quick and dynamic moves like the armored core game. We already have decent head tracking introduced in duviri. Just add a big enemy like the void dragon and make the mechs more nimble etc etc. Make mechs great again. 

[-Krism-]

It's been a while since I last saw a topic like this

"I saw this game/mechanic & thought warframe could copy paste it"

[PublikDomain]

9 minutes ago, -Krism- said:

"I saw this game/mechanic & thought warframe could copy paste it"

That's kind of DE's thing, so.

[Pakaku]

Why not just play Armored Core.

[Loza03]

The problem is... wouldn't that just be a Warframe? But bigger?

 

What differentiates a Warframe and a Necramech, exactly? Their Speed and Dexterity, or rather, their lack thereof. Necramechs are big, and weighty. They're clumsy, but powerful. Remove that differentiatiation, and you just have a bigger Warframe.

[(PSN)Unstar]

From my history in game development, one of the worst impulses of game designers was to see a mechanic in a newly-released game and believe it needed to be implemented in our game.  Because they thought it was cool (and it was cool) and shiny (because it was shiny).  But they rarely thought about whether such mechanics would gel well with the rest of the game's systems and overall design, or what the cost would be to implement the mechanic at a level of fidelity matching the original game they had experienced it in.  The results were nearly universally a waste of time.

[(PSN)EntityPendragon]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

The problem is... wouldn't that just be a Warframe? But bigger?

 

What differentiates a Warframe and a Necramech, exactly? Their Speed and Dexterity, or rather, their lack thereof. Necramechs are big, and weighty. They're clumsy, but powerful. Remove that differentiatiation, and you just have a bigger Warframe.

If I remember correctly, that weakness that warframes have with transference doesn't exist in necramechs.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

I play warframe because it reminded me so much of Armored Core. Lots of customization. Tons of weapon to slot in. Many different ways to tackle an objective. Of course the speed of the unit the player is controlling. Armored Core is too centralize on one vs one fights. Doesn't work well in warframe. People already hate bullet sponges. let alone telegraph boss fight. The New War showcase many players can't handle such complexity in gameplay.

[PublikDomain]

39 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The problem is... wouldn't that just be a Warframe? But bigger?

 

What differentiates a Warframe and a Necramech, exactly? Their Speed and Dexterity, or rather, their lack thereof. Necramechs are big, and weighty. They're clumsy, but powerful. Remove that differentiatiation, and you just have a bigger Warframe.

Is that really a problem though? Necramechs are already just bigger Warframes. Multiple weapons, 4 abilities, energy system, etc. The only difference is in their size and movement mechanics. And while they're weighty, they're also clumsy, and that clumsiness is one of the big things that turns people off. But they can be weighty and not clumsy. The main difference between Necramechs and the AC6 gameplay trailer is that Necramechs are mostly confined to the ground, while in AC6 the gameplay is more airborne. It's basically just Necramechs with more air movement speed and with an unlimited boost while on the ground. And more guns, ofc. That all sounds great. Why wouldn't we want that?

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, (PSN)EntityPendragon said:

If I remember correctly, that weakness that warframes have with transference doesn't exist in necramechs.

That's a lore difference, not a mechanical one.

I mean, in the Mass Effect Lore, thermal clips are much more advanced than regular bullets, but for gameplay purposes, it's just a magazine system.

 

27 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Is that really a problem though? Necramechs are already just bigger Warframes. Multiple weapons, 4 abilities, energy system, etc. The only difference is in their size and movement mechanics. And while they're weighty, they're also clumsy, and that clumsiness is one of the big things that turns people off. But they can be weighty and not clumsy. The main difference between Necramechs and the AC6 gameplay trailer is that Necramechs are mostly confined to the ground, while in AC6 the gameplay is more airborne. It's basically just Necramechs with more air movement speed and with an unlimited boost while on the ground. And more guns, ofc. That all sounds great. Why wouldn't we want that?

Looking at the AC6 gameplay, I do see what you mean. Hardly graceful, so, I doubt it'd change that much, though I'm not really sure it'd be any less clumsy. After all, AC is fighting other enemies on either the same scale or larger - Necramechs would largely find themselves fighting much smaller enemies and potentially in human-scaled spaces. So they'd probably still be clumsy just by virtue of getting stuck on or in things that Warframes don't.

[(PSN)EntityPendragon]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

That's a lore difference, not a mechanical one.

I mean, in the Mass Effect Lore, thermal clips are much more advanced than regular bullets, but for gameplay purposes, it's just a magazine system.

 

Looking at the AC6 gameplay, I do see what you mean. Hardly graceful, so, I doubt it'd change that much, though I'm not really sure it'd be any less clumsy. After all, AC is fighting other enemies on either the same scale or larger - Necramechs would largely find themselves fighting much smaller enemies and potentially in human-scaled spaces. So they'd probably still be clumsy just by virtue of getting stuck on or in things that Warframes don't.

That is more of what I meant. Father said something along the lines of being immune to sentient disruption and all that jazz, something warframes are vulnerable to.

[rapt0rman]

34 minutes ago, (PSN)EntityPendragon said:

That is more of what I meant. Father said something along the lines of being immune to sentient disruption and all that jazz, something warframes are vulnerable to.

The original post you quoted was specifically from a gameplay perspective. Lore explanations, in this sense, are essentially just a coat of paint over mechanics.

The scale, weightiness, responsiveness, etc. are the things that actually shape the way the game feels to play. You definitely can have specific lore that shapes the gameplay in specific ways, like transference or Sentient tech adaption, but I think what he means is more "is the end result different enough from Warframe's regular gameplay, that it has a reason to exist"

Which... IMO yes, but also I don't think that has ever been part of DE's thought process, they just add what they think is cool. They also have a track record of ignoring or retconning their own lore-that-is-also-gameplay-mechanics (like Sentient tech adaption)

Edited July 26, 2023 by rapt0rman

[(PSN)EntityPendragon]

11 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

The original post you quoted was specifically from a gameplay perspective. Lore explanations, in this sense, are essentially just a coat of paint over mechanics.

The scale, weightiness, responsiveness, etc. are the things that actually shape the way the game feels to play. You definitely can have specific lore that shapes the gameplay in specific ways, like transference or Sentient tech adaption, but I think what he means is more "is the end result different enough from Warframe's regular gameplay, that it has a reason to exist"

Which... IMO yes, but also I don't think that has ever been part of DE's thought process, they just add what they think is cool. They also have a track record of ignoring or retconning their own lore-that-is-also-gameplay-mechanics (like Sentient tech adaption)

When did the sentient adaption get retconned?

[rapt0rman]

22 minutes ago, (PSN)EntityPendragon said:

When did the sentient adaption get retconned?

More just ignored. Most of the basic units at least have the elemental damage adaption, but they're supposed to be able to completely disable or override anything beyond conventional kinetic projectiles and melee weapons.

Of course, I can totally see why they didn't go that direction. Warframe was a -very- different game back when Sentients were only in concept form, with some written lore tidbits here and there.

Edited July 26, 2023 by rapt0rman

[Surbusken]

"Necramechs on all maps" - 2018

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Looking at the AC6 gameplay, I do see what you mean. Hardly graceful, so, I doubt it'd change that much, though I'm not really sure it'd be any less clumsy. After all, AC is fighting other enemies on either the same scale or larger - Necramechs would largely find themselves fighting much smaller enemies and potentially in human-scaled spaces. So they'd probably still be clumsy just by virtue of getting stuck on or in things that Warframes don't.

Given how even Warframes get stuck on things I don't think that's an issue unique to Necramechs ;)

We've also got plenty of big enemies to brawl with, stuff like Jackals and Thumpers and Raknoids and the big Deimos worms and even other Necramechs. I'd really love to see some large Grineer units like Vay Hek's Terra Frame. And while it's true that Necramechs indoors are a bit cramped, it'd also be fine going the opposite direction with very large spaces made more for vehicle combat (Necramechs, Archwings, K-Drives). We've got plenty of tiles well-suited to that, and if something new were made it could fit that scale very well.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

Given how even Warframes get stuck on things I don't think that's an issue unique to Necramechs ;)

We've also got plenty of big enemies to brawl with, stuff like Jackals and Thumpers and Raknoids and the big Deimos worms and even other Necramechs. I'd really love to see some large Grineer units like Vay Hek's Terra Frame. And while it's true that Necramechs indoors are a bit cramped, it'd also be fine going the opposite direction with very large spaces made more for vehicle combat (Necramechs, Archwings, K-Drives). We've got plenty of tiles well-suited to that, and if something new were made it could fit that scale very well.

Profit Taker comes to mind. You can imagine what an AC can do in a fight like that.

Some content creators get to play AC6 early. Showing a lot of stages. If I had a choice in what to use. I'll take a warframe anyday. Warframe just got way too much flexibility. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

I don’t mind the idea, but personally I’d like a refine pass over mechanics and bugs for what’s already here before DE start trying to work another game into their sandbox.

At this point I love Warframe, but I hesitate to actually recommend it to others despite believing that they’ll like it once they get into it. It’s got a pretty janky first impression (looking at you, Codex) and I’d like players to see some polish before they get to the parts where DE were pretty clearly influenced by other games

[CephalonCarnage]

I want DE to copy Revenant 2.

 

not the game mechanics, we have that, nor the special moves, we have better.

But the balancing. Upper Echelon did a piece about it, he claimed he likes to try and "break" a game by becoming overpowered using the game systems, and found he coulnd't do it in Rev2. I think that's something DE should play and have a look at to copy. If Rev2 can do build progression and still have balance in a procedurally-generated system, then Warfarme should be able to have it too!

Don;t copy Elden Ring's parry, copy Revenant 2's balance!

vid set at the relevant part:

 

[Sweg178]

5 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Is that really a problem though? Necramechs are already just bigger Warframes. Multiple weapons, 4 abilities, energy system, etc. The only difference is in their size and movement mechanics. And while they're weighty, they're also clumsy, and that clumsiness is one of the big things that turns people off. But they can be weighty and not clumsy. The main difference between Necramechs and the AC6 gameplay trailer is that Necramechs are mostly confined to the ground, while in AC6 the gameplay is more airborne. It's basically just Necramechs with more air movement speed and with an unlimited boost while on the ground. And more guns, ofc. That all sounds great. Why wouldn't we want that?

Exactly what i was thinking. Also I believe is a big problem of DE that they totally ignores previously released content. Necramech, Railjack, openworlds non of these contents receive any significant update after their initial release and the bug fixes. DE needs to break this trend and touch on some old content to make them relevant again instead of releasing new stuff every year that will be forgotten the year after. 
 

5 hours ago, Loza03 said:

 

Looking at the AC6 gameplay, I do see what you mean. Hardly graceful, so, I doubt it'd change that much, though I'm not really sure it'd be any less clumsy. After all, AC is fighting other enemies on either the same scale or larger - Necramechs would largely find themselves fighting much smaller enemies and potentially in human-scaled spaces. So they'd probably still be clumsy just by virtue of getting stuck on or in things that Warframes don't.

Necramechs are already over sized for regular mission tileset and their heads are already clipping through the hallway. And with the limited and weighted movement we have right now is more inclined to get stuck on the tileset rather than a nimble one. And by nimble i dont mean warframe level movement. Mechs could feel weighted and heavy along with a better movement option as shown in AC. 

 

 

[Sweg178]

6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

The problem is... wouldn't that just be a Warframe? But bigger?

 

What differentiates a Warframe and a Necramech, exactly? Their Speed and Dexterity, or rather, their lack thereof. Necramechs are big, and weighty. They're clumsy, but powerful. Remove that differentiatiation, and you just have a bigger Warframe.

You are imagining it wrong. The movement will never match a warframe. If you really have to think about it, imagine a necramech fighting a Profit taker with head tracking. Make the side step inclined with the head tracking and not loose any speed ( I believe the mech sidestep still need to be fixed) , thats the movement part done. Lastly , snap an archwing on the mech with head tracking active. Archwing already have movement similar to that we see in AC and just missing the head tracking part.  Add some big guns/ ability that is actually useful (i mean rocket launcher, could be similar to seeker volly). I don't see why you think it will turn into a bigger warframe. 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Sweg178

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

7 hours ago, Sweg178 said:

Just recently watched the armored core 6 gameplay and I gotta say the mechs felt like they have a shocking resemblance with our necramech. It would be awesome if we could do quick and dynamic moves like the armored core game. We already have decent head tracking introduced in duviri. Just add a big enemy like the void dragon and make the mechs more nimble etc etc. Make mechs great again. 

Then you clearly havent played armored core 4, or 4 answer, which seems to be what From Software seems to be going back to compared to other games in the series, or looked into that much actual gameplay from 6. I havent played 6 yet but in some of the earlier games:

Theres a lot more emphasis on agility. In armored core 4 they could move at hundreds of kilometers per hour and hit thousands of kph during dodges. Dodging enemy attacks based on timing is a thing. Shooting down missiles homing in on you was a thing. Missiles requiring different tactics to avoid depending on their type was a thing. 

Looking at missiles coming at you and determining which ones could be dodged with a certain method knowing the others coming at you could not be avoided with the same method and deciding which one was more dangerous was a thing. 

actively shooting down enemy projectiles was a thing that may or may not be worth it depending on the situation.

PvP was a thing that people actually cared about and there was a huge skill curve. 

Fights could happen entirely in the air or entirely on the ground or any combination of air or ground potentially so high in the air the ground was irrelevant.

you could look at an enemy player's mech and see what parts they were using for the mech itself, compare that to the stats of your mech itself, the weapons they were using and the weapons you were using, and math out whether you could just head butt them or if youd lose that way and had to be more careful about evading their attacks.

the auto lock on thing is controversial to some people myself included because mechs used to be so fast and agile (potentially depending on build) that even keeping track of where an enemy was could be part of the skill check. Like flying directly over an enemy player then abruptly changing direction to attack from a different angle was a whole dance. 

blade matches where people voluntarily didnt use guns used to be a whole thing too and the timing really mattered there. There was no hard aim lock you could absolutely swing and completely miss the other guy.

7 hours ago, -Krism- said:

It's been a while since I last saw a topic like this

"I saw this game/mechanic & thought warframe could copy paste it"

i wish i had enough money to buy tencent just to ban anyone at de from ever saying "roguelike" again.

7 hours ago, Loza03 said:

The problem is... wouldn't that just be a Warframe? But bigger?

 

What differentiates a Warframe and a Necramech, exactly? Their Speed and Dexterity, or rather, their lack thereof. Necramechs are big, and weighty. They're clumsy, but powerful. Remove that differentiatiation, and you just have a bigger Warframe.

I mean, armored core 4, for answer, 5, and the 5.5 sequel to that, and now this are all different flavors of mech.

6 seems to be more like 4/for answer then the others but. 

The mechs in 4 seem to be more about agility as opossed to lumbering walking tanks.

The necromechs dont feel like or remind me of armored core at all. At least not 6. 

Timing quick boosts (basically directional dodge thrusters) and flying around to avoid enemy fire isnt really a thing. 

So, i wouldnt call it a warframe but bigger but theres a list of other problems. 

>warframes environments are not meant for or suitable for that kind of agility.

>enemy attacks, types, and etc arent really geared for that kind of gameplay.

I feel like best case scenario for what OP is suggesting is we get a "mech themed" warframe that is emphasized as being more "machine" than the others. 

But i doubt theyd ever do that.

[Sweg178]

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Then you clearly havent played armored core 4, or 4 answer, which seems to be what From Software seems to be going back to compared to other games in the series, or looked into that much actual gameplay from 6. I havent played 6 yet but in some of the earlier games:

Theres a lot more emphasis on agility. In armored core 4 they could move at hundreds of kilometers per hour and hit thousands of kph during dodges. Dodging enemy attacks based on timing is a thing. Shooting down missiles homing in on you was a thing. Missiles requiring different tactics to avoid depending on their type was a thing. 

Looking at missiles coming at you and determining which ones could be dodged with a certain method knowing the others coming at you could not be avoided with the same method and deciding which one was more dangerous was a thing. 

actively shooting down enemy projectiles was a thing that may or may not be worth it depending on the situation.

PvP was a thing that people actually cared about and there was a huge skill curve. 

Fights could happen entirely in the air or entirely on the ground or any combination of air or ground potentially so high in the air the ground was irrelevant.

you could look at an enemy player's mech and see what parts they were using for the mech itself, compare that to the stats of your mech itself, the weapons they were using and the weapons you were using, and math out whether you could just head butt them or if youd lose that way and had to be more careful about evading their attacks.

the auto lock on thing is controversial to some people myself included because mechs used to be so fast and agile (potentially depending on build) that even keeping track of where an enemy was could be part of the skill check. Like flying directly over an enemy player then abruptly changing direction to attack from a different angle was a whole dance. 

blade matches where people voluntarily didnt use guns used to be a whole thing too and the timing really mattered there. There was no hard aim lock you could absolutely swing and completely miss the other guy.

i wish i had enough money to buy tencent just to ban anyone at de from ever saying "roguelike" again.

I mean, armored core 4, for answer, 5, and the 5.5 sequel to that, and now this are all different flavors of mech.

6 seems to be more like 4/for answer then the others but. 

The mechs in 4 seem to be more about agility as opossed to lumbering walking tanks.

The necromechs dont feel like or remind me of armored core at all. At least not 6. 

Timing quick boosts (basically directional dodge thrusters) and flying around to avoid enemy fire isnt really a thing. 

So, i wouldnt call it a warframe but bigger but theres a list of other problems. 

>warframes environments are not meant for or suitable for that kind of agility.

>enemy attacks, types, and etc arent really geared for that kind of gameplay.

I feel like best case scenario for what OP is suggesting is we get a "mech themed" warframe that is emphasized as being more "machine" than the others. 

But i doubt theyd ever do that.

I get it man, you played AC 4 , pat yourself on the back.

[RichardKam]

8小时前 , Sweg178 说:

Just recently watched the armored core 6 gameplay and I gotta say the mechs felt like they have a shocking resemblance with our necramech. It would be awesome if we could do quick and dynamic moves like the armored core game. We already have decent head tracking introduced in duviri. Just add a big enemy like the void dragon and make the mechs more nimble etc etc. Make mechs great again. 

It won't work.

The mechanics, while simple, was actually complicated. Remember you are looking at a FromSoftware game. They made Dark Soul and Bloodborne. Hundreds if not thousands of game developers - some of them very talented - tried to follow their footstep. They all failed. And then FromSoftware take one step further and made The Elden Ring. The rest is history.

Remember, it took FS 10 years, ten, a decade, TEN years to make one sequel to the armored core series, that is AC6 you just watched, and you *think* you can mimic a fraction of their success by "just add a big enemy and make the mech more nimble". You either underestimated the effort and talent required to make such a highly anticipated mech game, or you overestimated the capability of DE.

If DE had time to spare maybe they should rework Railjack. At least that is their own arena.

[Stafelund]

Nah, let's go with Warthunder gameplay.