Abyss of Dagath - Dev Workshop: Hydroid Rework

[CosoMalvadoNG]

It's a no sir, play or go.

[(PSN)aarott]

1 hour ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

but if there is no more armored enemies around, I don't know how this will work

Pretty sure it'll still key off've the corrosive procs they have even if no armour. 

 

1 hour ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Dagath's update will make Hydroid much more focused on Grineer than any other faction.

Assuming they don't change the way barrage interacts with nullifiers, he'll still have a better match up against corpus nullifiers than most other casters. 

[AegidiusF]

il y a 2 minutes, (PSN)aarott a dit :

Pretty sure it'll still key off've the corrosive procs they have even if no armour. 

I was asking myself about that : Plounder works only with Corrosive procs or does it need armor (like Pillage) ?

It seems you are right.

il y a 4 minutes, (PSN)aarott a dit :

Assuming they don't change the way barrage interacts with nullifiers, he'll still have a better match up against corpus nullifiers than most other casters. 

True. I also agree with you.

If the AoE range and duration is greater, it would be nice on Limbo 😇😆😈.

[(XBOX)TagDatFatCat]

Since he is my favorite frame (yes I'm a masochist), I had sworn to myself to not touch Warframe again until he finally gets reworked or at least tweaked... that was like 3 months ago, so I guess it worked, lol

 

Really appreciate the changes on paper, but am still wondering if there is no way to still keep puddle, as it's very usefull to give you some breathing time and do a quick 360 knockdown.

 

Maybe fuse it with Tidal Surge and make you become a puddle when you press down the ability button and the Surge when tapping it. Because now that Surge actually drags enemies along it would finally actually work symbiotic and allow to gather enemies and put them wherever you want. 

 

I just think while it wasn't really engaging, the puddle was still a way too unique ability to completely write it off, but I won't complain when it's gone for good. 

[SDGDen]

ngl? i'm more mad about the ability they're replacing puddle with than them taking puddle away.

it's genuinely bland and uninspiring. it's a worse version of wukong's defy fused with a mediocre damage buff. yet another "press button to get big armor". it unoriginal, uninspired, uncreative, i think whoever designed it clearly needs to take a long, well-deserved vacation because they're likely suffering from creative burnout. there's a dozen ways they could have made a new, extremely cool ability for hydroid that would have added relevance to his kit and provided something interesting to play with, but no. it's press 3 to possibly get armor and a damage buff. 

not to mention armor is currently pretty irrelevant since we have multiple more effective ways to stay alive.

[nSane_PL]

On 2023-09-28 at 10:26 PM, bangarang35 said:

this. improved positioning of tentacles would be HUGE for Hydroid

 

Correction: I think Pablo actually said in Devstream that if a enemy walks into the AOE of the attack then any tentacle can grab regardless of location.

Just a random thought - tentacles spawning always in the same position according to where you are facing (if environment allows it), which would allow to build muscle memory for which side I should shoot / use skill.

[CapinPotato9711]

2 minutes ago, nSane_PL said:

Just a random thought - tentacles spawning always in the same position according to where you are facing (if environment allows it), which would allow to build muscle memory for which side I should shoot / use skill.

part of the benefit of using hyroid over other trapping frames is that you can place your swarm over seemingly endless range. I understand where your comeing from, but i feel there is more utility as it is

[DrBorris]

Well ain't this a heated topic.

 

I'd like to recontextualize Hydroid's current kit in a way I haven't seen many people acknowledge. That of a high mobility choke defender. 

First, you use multiple castings of Tempest Barrage to keep multiple choke points in a room locked down. As enemies walk into your rain storms, they get knocked into neat little piles. When placing/maintaining these piles of bodies you are bullet jumping and Tidal Surging around, sometimes dolphin diving into Undertows to keep out of harms way. Once your piles are sufficiently piled, you then use Undertow and Tidal Surge to dash around the room to all of the choke points, gathering all enemies up into a single 'pile' inside Undertow. The scaling damage per enemy inside Undertow then quickly kills the enemies. Rinse and Repeat, with high enough spawn rates you can hopefully skip the "wait for big piles" step and be constantly gathering/DPSing. 

Does this work in game? Lol, no. Barrage knocks enemies around, Tidal Surge still sucks at holding enemies, Puddle will just leave enemies behind, and the damage scaling is comical. But the theory... it was there. And sure, it was also a higher effort playstyle even in theory, but Limbo mains also exist. 

 

For those giving the galaxy brain "Hydroid is better, be happy" take, I implore you to try to understand. Puddle wasn't just a thing that made Hydroid unique, it was one of the most unique abilities in the game. Outside of Undertow Hydroid has rain (a very basic CC), a basic dash (that many other Warframes have a variant of) and a big CC. There are plenty of great frames that just have variants and remixes of other abilities, but that's not all Hydroid had, he also had Puddle. 

And I'll be honest, Pablo's (paraphrased) "Puddle doesn't make sense in this fast action game" sounded more like a lack of creativity. Why, exactly, did Puddle have to be slow? Like... at all? The Copium I was on when we heard at Tennocon that Hydroid was getting a new ability was that Tidal Surge and Undertow were being merged. Undertow turning from a movement impediment into an augment to movement. Standing still would be our traditional puddle but moving/sprinting would automatically put you into a Tidal Surge state. 

Pablo's argument "we don't like abilities that remove enemies" is more fair, but Grendel got to keep his stomach just with a new hard limitation. Why could something similar not have been done for Hydroid? I wouldn't have have been opposed to complete removing the enemy consuming aspect of Undertow and kept it as a movement/stealth ability instead. If they wanted to keep the fantasy of consuming enemies it could be shifted to consuming corpses (for some sort of buff). 

The salt in the wound is that Plunder is incredibly boring in gameplay. The way Pablo has integrated Corrosive into Hydroid's kit is fantastic, Hydroid needed some kind of glue and using an existing status effect to be that glue is going to be great for build-craft. But Plunder's existence is solely to be a point of synergy. It doesn't create gameplay outside of the other abilities you need to cast to make it work. And like... that's not a bad thing in a vacuum, synergy abilities make for some for the most interesting gameplay loops, again the problem is that it is replacing an ability with unique gameplay. 

 

Nobody (who is sane) is asking for the Undertow to stay as is. It was busted in design, code, and kit. But that doesn't mean the only path forward was to throw it in the trash. While I'm looking forward to playing a version of Hydroid that is useful, I struggle to see what I could get attached to. Spamming CC abilities, armor stripping, and being tanky is good but I don't play Warframe just to play good things. I play Warframe to play fun and weird things. 

 

16 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Steel path isn’t the place to go for build and gameplay variety anyways since it’s designed for whatever min-maxed builds we can make

This is unrelated to the main topic, but I couldn't disagree more. More playstyles are viable in SP than normal path because you don't have comically busted power differentials. I can bring more weapons into SP and feel like I am contributing to the mission than I can to a normal mission. The requirement is that you make an actual build. "Build diversity" isn't "every build works." For making a build to be satisfying there needs to be a power curve, you should feel rewarded for combining things together. If everything works then why try? What's the reward in finding new combinations? 

Edited October 3, 2023 by DrBorris

[(PSN)RomDog2648]

9 hours ago, (XBOX)sinamanthediva said:

No one that is Pro-Puddle is against the new Plunder Power, as it does sound like something that might be useful.  Those of us that like the Puddle are asking it to be either moved and combined with Tidal Wave possibly, or remove the water balloon toss or tidal wave instead of removing the Puddle.  I doubt you or many other players have used Hydroid much to even warrant having much input about the unique game-play style that can be had with the Puddle. 

The Puddle IS part of what the magic of Hydroid was all about and we are asking to keep that part of him that makes him special.  Hydroid was never going to be a Meta Warframe and still will be resigned to the back of the bus  even after the changes.  Armor stripping does not make a Warframe suddenly become Meta so I don't quite get the fanfare for his "amazing" rework and the berating of those that want to keep the Puddle. 

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

That's simply not true, there are many people who are pro-puddle who are wishing Plunder weren't a thing, heck there's even a comment like that in this thread, and you yourself are even suggesting they either merge or remove Wave or barrage in favor of Puddle. And then right after you are the one that starts being belittling, and gatekeeping.

"I doubt you or many other players have used Hydroid much to even warrant having much input about the unique game-play style that can be had with the Puddle. "

I mean just read that back to yourself...

Then I ask that you read the comments in the thread again, then maybe you'll see that I wasnt attacking puddle at all, and instead advocating they keep (and tweak) puddle to make more sense with the reworked kit. 

I don't think Puddle was perfect the way it was, but I also wasn't part of the *Puddle is gone? Good riddance* crowd.  

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2023-10-01 at 10:46 PM, (XBOX)Knight Raime said:

there are better frames for that

Hey, you’re not wrong.

Here’s the thing; he still gets these functions when he specifically didn’t before.

Warframe isn’t a game where you need to have the best frame at one thing or another in order to do well, to finish the mission, or to do a nice long grind. You just need the frame to be reliable at what it needs to do.

I agree, it’s not the best ability out there.

Never said it wasn’t.

What my entire point is, here, is that the result here is not bad. It’s not some awful, terrible result that nobody wanted.

Boring is subjective. Reliability is not.

[(XBOX)Skull226]

Hydroids puddle should be combined with tidal surge this would keep the fun of be a puddle like flopping on enemies and allow it to do damage just add the healing from the augment and the corrosive damage. 

[King-Baconbeard]

for all the people saying metal doesn't dissolve in water, slow clap. 

Hydroid is from the sea, the sea (like the puddle gang) is salty. Saltwater corrodes metal, and most deep oceans contain Bacteria that speed up Corrosion/Rust.

not saying Plunder is a brilliant addition yet either, but Puddle was not the identity of Hydroid, it was the meme of Hydroid, if anything, his bullet jump should be a gush of water.

However until we test him, we won't know if he is saved, or just less crap. I for one am surprised PLunder doesn't give Extra Gold or have a new augment for drop chance!
i wanted his 4 to become a creature of the abyss summons like Sevagoths 4 tbh but here we are!

 

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

3 hours ago, (PSN)RomDog2648 said:

That's simply not true, there are many people who are pro-puddle who are wishing Plunder weren't a thing, heck there's even a comment like that in this thread, and you yourself are even suggesting they either merge or remove Wave or barrage in favor of Puddle. And then right after you are the one that starts being belittling, and gatekeeping.

"I doubt you or many other players have used Hydroid much to even warrant having much input about the unique game-play style that can be had with the Puddle. "

I mean just read that back to yourself...

Then I ask that you read the comments in the thread again, then maybe you'll see that I wasnt attacking puddle at all, and instead advocating they keep (and tweak) puddle to make more sense with the reworked kit. 

I don't think Puddle was perfect the way it was, but I also wasn't part of the *Puddle is gone? Good riddance* crowd.  

 

 

I apologize if I assumed you were Anti-Puddle and the statements I made were more in general and not directed at you specifically.  I am quick on the draw because there have been several comments that are not very supportive of the Puddle, to put it mildly, so please forgive my lumping you into the Anti-Puddle Mafia as you are part of the Puddle Patriots!  Thank you for embracing the Puddle-tastic, Puddle-rific, Puddle-licious Play-style that hopefully can be saved for future generations of Tenno to experience!

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

#LongLiveThePuddle
#PuddlePatriots

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 24 minutos, King-Baconbeard dijo:

not saying Plunder is a brilliant addition yet either, but Puddle was not the identity of Hydroid, it was the meme of Hydroid, if anything, his bullet jump should be a gush of water.

However until we test him, we won't know if he is saved, or just less crap. I for one am surprised PLunder doesn't give Extra Gold or have a new augment for drop chance!
i wanted his 4 to become a creature of the abyss summons like Sevagoths 4 tbh but here we are!

I call this good judgment.

Edited October 3, 2023 by CosoMalvadoNG
misspellings

[(XBOX)N7ShadowedSoul]

Ok DE I really hope you're seeing the feedback from actual Hydroid players & will be making adjustments accordingly.

 

First off let me say I am not a casual Hydroid player. I am a DEVOUT Hydroid main & have loyally played him since nearly Warframe's release on Xbox back in 2015. He was the very first frame I went & got. I have played him in every bit of content this game has had in 8 years. DE I have been playing him since stamina & stamina stats were a thing. Back in that day he had the highest stamina stat of the available frames. I remember a dev stream where Scott was talking about the thought/theme of Hydroid was being a melee fighter that used his abilities to quickly lock down, get in & out. A hit & run pirate frame. This is how I have played him for 8 years. While every other player has chosen the new damage heavy, nuke a map OP frames...not me I have loved my Hydroid. He may not be perfect, he may not be the best but he is the Warframe I enjoy the most. He is the frame I continue to choose to play Warframe for. DE I have more time on Hydroid/ Hydroid Prime than pretty much most of the frames combined. I was there when you guys made the changes/rework to him in 2017. Most of the changes were good, some of them changed his mechanics/modding for the worse. However I'm not one to get on the forums & post really EVER. However this rework, I definitely felt I needed to say something. While most of these changes seem interesting, good or straight improvements there are some major concerns.

Tempest Barrage:

Back before the changes/rework of Hydroid in 2017 the ability range stat had significant impact on the effectiveness of this ability. Range would affect the circular area of effect of where the barrage would land. A preferred mod setup would actually lower the range & up the ability strength so you could cluster all the barrage into a focused area thereby increasing the consistency of the damage. Combining this with Corrosive Barrage (pre corrosive status changes) this enabled a very effective armor strip while giving decently solid damage. Well, your changes in 2017 destroyed this functionality & setup. The range got changed to affect the explosion radius of the water bombs themself with them landing randomly in the pre set radius. You effectively killed both the decent damage output & armor strip capability of Tempest Barrage. The changes to corrosive status procs further made this ability augment worse. On top of that instead of just staggering or knocking down enemies it hit, the changes to impact damage now made them ragdoll out of the ability. The main question here is with these new changes, how is the ability range stat going to function now? Hopefully its more towards the pre 2017 rework.

Tidal Surge:

I can't think of any issue with your rework here for this ability itself. Better qol, better responsiveness, CC. On paper it seems good. Hopefully it feels good in game.

Undertow:

Here begins my biggest gripe point. Good God this is a HORRIBLE choice to just completely remove this from the game. So pre 2017 rework the puddle had alot larger aoe. While not effective in terms of damage, I understand the changes to its base function then. It was not fun. However, what the rework gave us was the ability to cast our other abilities from Undertow. Also, a niche function of being able to grab enemies with tentacle to pull them in. That was a significantly positive change. However, the other changes you made to it then were a combination of not understanding the frame & unnecessary nerfs. When the 2017 rework came out, enemies submerged in Undertow were dealt TRUE DAMAGE. While the damage was meh it did ramp up. Furthermore, when you combined this with Corroding Barrage this allowed the damage to be significantly improved & ramped up so much quicker. You could within 2-5 seconds kill very beefy targets in your Undertow. While not even remotely the strongest thing in the game, it was unique. Surge into a group of enemies, drop undertow, grab a few targets you missed with tentacles, hit them with Corroding Barrage & watch them die. It was more engaging. More importantly, it was FUN FOR ACTUAL HYDROID PLAYERS. Then for whatever reason, you guys decided this was too strong & changed the damage type to IMPACT, arguably the worst damage type in the game. You again just like Tempest/Corroding Barrage effectively killed the function of this ability. In a game where we had Saryn, Volt, Equinox nuking entire rooms in seconds, you decided that THIS/ UNDERTOW was on that level where it needed a nerf into nonexistence? Give me a break. Here's your reasoning.

• Undertow is an ability which we feel makes Hydroid a bit less fun to play as, or play with. There are two main reasons we decided to replace this ability:
  • It forces the player to be stationary, while many objectives rely on regular movement.
  • It absorbs enemies without instantly killing them, which can lead to instances of hiding enemies that a teammate was trying to kill.

Your nerfs in 2017 made this happen. You caused what you are saying. Hydroid players never wanted Undertow to be completely stationary or low on the damage. You made those choices. A 1 meter a second move speed was ridiculous, who decided that was a good idea at the time? The absorbing enemies without instantly killing them? Thats a direct effect from your nerfs! Hiding enemies that the team is trying to kill? No actual Hydroid main wants that either, we want to be able to kill the enemies just as fast to help our team. After these changes Hydroid's Undertow was not about damage or offense but PURE UTILITY. There are several VITAL things actual Hydroid mains use Undertow for. 

1) MELEE

Let's go back to Scotts comments from 2014/2015.  The theme of Hydroid was being a melee fighter that used his abilities to quickly lock down, get in & out. A hit & run pirate frame. What Undertow gave Hydroid mains was openings & positioning for melee enhancement. Once you were in the midst of enemies, Undertow puts enemies in a vulnerable state. Once you arose out of Undertow, enemies were in a finish able state. The next melee attack on them did finisher damage & lots of it. You didn't have to sit STATIONARY. You could drop it then immediately come back up to get the crazy melee damage. The other thing was with the 2017 rework, Hydroid could now use jump to exit Undertow. What this allowed was for you to come out of Undertow & be in the air. Why do this? To get slam or heavy slam attacks with weapons which did what DE? Oh yeah proc his old passive of giving a tentacle(as crappy as that was). However on weapons that gave bonuses to this, it was really fun to do (again for Hydroid mains) you remember things like the Arca Titron, Ohma, Exodia Hunt, Tenet Exec, Lifted status effect?

2) Survivability

What Undertow gave Hydroid was survivability in another form. Where other frames have things like Iron Skin, Warding Halo, Mesmer Skins, invulnerability windows etc etc. Hydroid had his puddle. Orbital Strikes from Kela de Thaym? Puddle. Big Moa shockwaves? Puddle. Jackal energy waves? Puddle. Steel Path & got blasted by a Bombard? Puddle. Got scorpion yanked by an enemy? Puddle. Need 1 second of breathing room? Puddle. Need to reposition? Puddle then Tidal Surge. Need to heal just a bit? Puddle with Curative Undertow. Need to create an opening for something? Puddle then choose an ability. I have taken Hydroid into many, many hours of Steel Path Kurva Survival. You know what has saved me countless times? UNDERTOW for its sheer utility.

3) Synergy

Undertow enabled flexibility with his other abilties. Tempest Barrage allows enemies ins puddle to be status affected. Tidal Surge could be used for shorter distances & to puddle gather enemies. Tentacle Swarm got 200% percent damage when cast from Undertow. Are these synergies going to be given to the base ability somehow?

KEEP PUDDLE IN THE GAME SOMEHOW

What Undertow gave was OPTIONS DE....PLAYER CHOICE...VERSATILITY. The complete removal of this ability shows complete lack of understanding of how actual Hydroid mains are using Undertow & shows you don't understand how vital & frame defining it is for Hydroid. This is the ability that is the core identity for Hydroid's uniqueness. I really hope you listen to the feed back here on it because there are 2 really good ideas to still incorporate Undertow in some form.

1) Incorporate it somehow like you did Limbo's riftwalk. Via a dodge, crouch or something, Puddle utility/survivability needs to remain in the game somehow.

2) Apply it to his Tidal Surge ability. Make it a hold function. Tap to Surge, Hold to puddle. Again this is a vital core identity/ mechanic for Hydroid mains. The Puddle utility/survivability needs to remain in the game.

Tentacle Swarm:

Well to be honest I'm a bit conflicted here. This ability can go a couple different ways. It could be a more power/damage focused ability that just obliterates things or crowd control. If it remains as a CC ability, then the utility needs to be much better. The random spawn locations of the tentacles does need to be fixed though. With that said, while the Kraken has always been decent at Crowd Control, it's always made it harder for the team to kill enemies grabbed. These changes alleviate that issue by holding them straight. Pablo also said that if enemies walk into the area they will be grabbed by the Kraken. While the changes seem much better, it also makes the ability less fun? less lively? Less power fantasy? It's basically a reskin of Khora's Strangledome now....here's my thought process.

Hydroid is an ocean frame. The ocean is the most powerful force on Earth. Hydroid calls the Kraken...in Greek/Nordic mythology this was one of the most powerful creatures in existence. The Kraken was a force of nature that even some of the gods feared. In folklore the Kraken was just as powerful, feared & respected by sailors & maritime/ ocean cultures. Should the ability not reflect that lore/ reputation? Also, maybe the augment could be enhanced/buffed or even changed? Just a thought.

Final Thoughts

All in all, the rework seems interesting & I'm eager to test it out in game. I want to see where this puts my favorite frame in terms of functionality, modding & fun factor. However what I am adamant about is that some sort of Puddle functionality remains available to Hydroid. Without it, this kills a playstyle I have enjoyed for many years & what keeps me coming back to Warframe. Without it, I'm not sure if the same enjoyment will be there for me, I will have to see when the update come out. I'm all for having the Plunder ability to try out, but Undertow needs to be a riftwalk or applied to Tidal Surge.  All this feedback from Hydroid mains over the years & it seems DE has chosen to ignore us Hydroids mains as usual. As I said I usually never speak up on forums but this is my "that 1 guy who complained about Conclave to Steve changes" This is my hill & I'll stay fighting on it. If not it might be time to move on.

If anybody read all of this, kudos to you. To any remaining true Hydroid mains, I salute you brothers keep up the good fight.

Much love to every Tenno out there & happy hunting!

[Northern_Psycho]

21 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

but I liked drowning enemies and being the creature from the deep, as well as whatever potential it had for weird synergies

21 hours ago, SDGDen said:

unique and had a lot of meme potential (similar to grendel's meatball)

This is why I dont like people's consensus on Puddle's removal. It's always an appeal to how "unique" it is. 
Never how useful, interactive, or fun for other players in your squad it would be. 
If you're concerned about Hydroid losing something special, dont worry. His other 3 abilities are still there, but actually good now. 

Would I be opposed to Puddle being woven into his Tidal surge, or even a special roll interaction? Absolutely not, that sounds awesome. 
But don't try to appeal to personal feelings when the ability was just bad at everything outside of meme value. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

7 hours ago, DrBorris said:

This is unrelated to the main topic, but I couldn't disagree more. More playstyles are viable in SP than normal path because you don't have comically busted power differentials. I can bring more weapons into SP and feel like I am contributing to the mission than I can to a normal mission. The requirement is that you make an actual build. "Build diversity" isn't "every build works." For making a build to be satisfying there needs to be a power curve, you should feel rewarded for combining things together. If everything works then why try? What's the reward in finding new combinations? 

You already get that in the main game, plus plenty of chance to make your equipment perform how you want and every chance to bring something that may not be specialised for the mission but can be plenty fun to use (in some ways because of how non-specialised it is), and you’re not dealing with warped enemy survival (so things like direct damage against armour or using mismatched elements is a lot more of an option) or being deluged in enemies so playstyles that are affected by enemy density (like single target and the impact of killing a specific enemy) are an option.

Steel Path not only asks for massive overkill and tasks the player with figuring out the best way to turn it off, it was introduced for that purpose and its state of balance was never going to be a concern for the min-maxers it was introduced for as a place for them to actually have a reason to turn the game off as effectively as possible. You can call it “Hard mode” if you want, its purpose is to be rendered as easy as possible, and if you’re asking “Am I doing too much damage and am too invincible?”, you’re in the wrong part of the game.

Some playstyles are available in unbalanced Steel Path that you can’t do in standard due to just how crunchy some enemies are and how many there are, I’ll give you that; compared to what you can do in the main game, they’re a paltry amount. Players are probably burning like 7 mod slots equipping “Mandatory Mods” and then wondering why their gameplay is so boring and limited unless they hang around in Steel Path for a chance to feel anything at all, when it’s the modless base that provides the broadest canvas, the most ways to build and combine, the greatest flexibility, the most opportunity to solve whatever “I want to play like this in the content I’m about to do” build puzzle, and the standard game still gives a fight and a chance to feel something if you’re jumping into content that matches your build instead of building for higher, taking into lower (although that too is an option and facilitates whatever playstyles would rely on building for higher than the content being done).

If someone’s only ever been chasing efficiency and worrying about opportunity cost, they’ve been doing themselves a disservice, particularly since the game itself is designed around a “Power comes with a literal cost” system where we can have full customisation of our gear for the playstyle we’re aiming for or full power to go more places or any combination of the two. There’s more to solving build puzzles than just “How can I make a thing maximum effective”(note that “Maximum effective” is different to “More effective”) even if that’s also an option

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[SDGDen]

1 hour ago, Northern_Psycho said:

This is why I dont like people's consensus on Puddle's removal. It's always an appeal to how "unique" it is. 
Never how useful, interactive, or fun for other players in your squad it would be. 
If you're concerned about Hydroid losing something special, dont worry. His other 3 abilities are still there, but actually good now. 

Would I be opposed to Puddle being woven into his Tidal surge, or even a special roll interaction? Absolutely not, that sounds awesome. 
But don't try to appeal to personal feelings when the ability was just bad at everything outside of meme value. 

alright then, here's why undertow isn't nearly as bad of an ability as people may think:

>sacrifices mobility for high survivability and status immunity
>allows you to more tightly control how you place your 4 (when you cast your 4 in undertow you place it within undertows range, rather than within tentacle swarm's max range) 
>combines well with various other abilities (ahum yareli's 3) 
>heals you and other players with the augment, which pairs well as a support tool with the augment for hydroid's 2 to cure status ailments
>works as a stealth ability, afaik enemies can't spot you when you're a puddle. 
>changes your hitbox, meaning that things that would have hit your chest but not your toes simply miss you (including some laser walls that are lifted just a slight bit off the ground) 

 

pablo raised some valid concerns with undertow, the mobility issue with it is a bit *too* much, it being full invulnerability is also a bit much and pulling enemies entirely under is a problem for allies, but these can be fixed with simple changes:

>slightly increase travel speed for puddle mode
>remove the invulnerability, replace with puddle being an official stealth ability (meaning it works like invisibility)
>make tidal surge cheaper while in puddle form (similar to ash's 2+4 synergy) to help with travel a bit further
>make enemies "float" inside the puddle rather than dissapearing entirely in it. 

 

also, they LITERALLY stated they wouldn't remove meatball in grendels rework SPECIFICALLY because it's a meme power and frames are allowed to have funny meme powers. why shouldn't the same exception be made for puddle? they made meatball into a much better ability while retaining it's meme status, they could have EASILY done the same for puddle, but instead we get some unimaginative, uncreative, uninteresting armor buff.

 

pablo needs a nice paid vacation because he's clearly suffering from some kind of writer's block.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, Northern_Psycho said:

This is why I dont like people's consensus on Puddle's removal. It's always an appeal to how "unique" it is. 
Never how useful, interactive, or fun for other players in your squad it would be. 
If you're concerned about Hydroid losing something special, dont worry. His other 3 abilities are still there, but actually good now. 

Would I be opposed to Puddle being woven into his Tidal surge, or even a special roll interaction? Absolutely not, that sounds awesome. 
But don't try to appeal to personal feelings when the ability was just bad at everything outside of meme value. 

Most of the time the squad doesn’t care because each of them are built to handle the whole multiplayer mission alone; even though puddle can shine plenty well in solo, jumping into multiplayer clutching our “It can be useful” ability just ends up with the others blowing everything up or never needing the help in the first place because they’re specifically built to not need the help because they don’t want the help. And that’s before you get into the realm of a bunch of forumers too concerned with a warped sense of ViAbIlItY to actually have some fun with a thing for what it is in a game that’s designed to allow more than just Maximum Viability

Edited October 3, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)N7ShadowedSoul said:

Ok DE I really hope you're seeing the feedback from actual Hydroid players & will be making adjustments accordingly....

Thank you for taking the time to voice your Puddle Support. You are a gentleman and a scholar!  Let's hope our collective voices keep the Puddle alive so future Tenno can partake of some Puddle-rific Power! 

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

#LongLiveThePuddle
#PuddlePower

[(NSW)Yeyeg]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)N7ShadowedSoul said:

Ok DE I really hope you're seeing the feedback from actual Hydroid players & will be making adjustments accordingly.

 

First off let me say I am not a casual Hydroid player. I am a DEVOUT Hydroid main & have loyally played him since nearly Warframe's release on Xbox back in 2015. He was the very first frame I went & got. I have played him in every bit of content this game has had in 8 years. DE I have been playing him since stamina & stamina stats were a thing. Back in that day he had the highest stamina stat of the available frames. I remember a dev stream where Scott was talking about the thought/theme of Hydroid was being a melee fighter that used his abilities to quickly lock down, get in & out. A hit & run pirate frame. This is how I have played him for 8 years. While every other player has chosen the new damage heavy, nuke a map OP frames...not me I have loved my Hydroid. He may not be perfect, he may not be the best but he is the Warframe I enjoy the most. He is the frame I continue to choose to play Warframe for. DE I have more time on Hydroid/ Hydroid Prime than pretty much most of the frames combined. I was there when you guys made the changes/rework to him in 2017. Most of the changes were good, some of them changed his mechanics/modding for the worse. However I'm not one to get on the forums & post really EVER. However this rework, I definitely felt I needed to say something. While most of these changes seem interesting, good or straight improvements there are some major concerns.

Tempest Barrage:

Back before the changes/rework of Hydroid in 2017 the ability range stat had significant impact on the effectiveness of this ability. Range would affect the circular area of effect of where the barrage would land. A preferred mod setup would actually lower the range & up the ability strength so you could cluster all the barrage into a focused area thereby increasing the consistency of the damage. Combining this with Corrosive Barrage (pre corrosive status changes) this enabled a very effective armor strip while giving decently solid damage. Well, your changes in 2017 destroyed this functionality & setup. The range got changed to affect the explosion radius of the water bombs themself with them landing randomly in the pre set radius. You effectively killed both the decent damage output & armor strip capability of Tempest Barrage. The changes to corrosive status procs further made this ability augment worse. On top of that instead of just staggering or knocking down enemies it hit, the changes to impact damage now made them ragdoll out of the ability. The main question here is with these new changes, how is the ability range stat going to function now? Hopefully its more towards the pre 2017 rework.

Tidal Surge:

I can't think of any issue with your rework here for this ability itself. Better qol, better responsiveness, CC. On paper it seems good. Hopefully it feels good in game.

Undertow:

Here begins my biggest gripe point. Good God this is a HORRIBLE choice to just completely remove this from the game. So pre 2017 rework the puddle had alot larger aoe. While not effective in terms of damage, I understand the changes to its base function then. It was not fun. However, what the rework gave us was the ability to cast our other abilities from Undertow. Also, a niche function of being able to grab enemies with tentacle to pull them in. That was a significantly positive change. However, the other changes you made to it then were a combination of not understanding the frame & unnecessary nerfs. When the 2017 rework came out, enemies submerged in Undertow were dealt TRUE DAMAGE. While the damage was meh it did ramp up. Furthermore, when you combined this with Corroding Barrage this allowed the damage to be significantly improved & ramped up so much quicker. You could within 2-5 seconds kill very beefy targets in your Undertow. While not even remotely the strongest thing in the game, it was unique. Surge into a group of enemies, drop undertow, grab a few targets you missed with tentacles, hit them with Corroding Barrage & watch them die. It was more engaging. More importantly, it was FUN FOR ACTUAL HYDROID PLAYERS. Then for whatever reason, you guys decided this was too strong & changed the damage type to IMPACT, arguably the worst damage type in the game. You again just like Tempest/Corroding Barrage effectively killed the function of this ability. In a game where we had Saryn, Volt, Equinox nuking entire rooms in seconds, you decided that THIS/ UNDERTOW was on that level where it needed a nerf into nonexistence? Give me a break. Here's your reasoning.

• Undertow is an ability which we feel makes Hydroid a bit less fun to play as, or play with. There are two main reasons we decided to replace this ability:
  • It forces the player to be stationary, while many objectives rely on regular movement.
  • It absorbs enemies without instantly killing them, which can lead to instances of hiding enemies that a teammate was trying to kill.

Your nerfs in 2017 made this happen. You caused what you are saying. Hydroid players never wanted Undertow to be completely stationary or low on the damage. You made those choices. A 1 meter a second move speed was ridiculous, who decided that was a good idea at the time? The absorbing enemies without instantly killing them? Thats a direct effect from your nerfs! Hiding enemies that the team is trying to kill? No actual Hydroid main wants that either, we want to be able to kill the enemies just as fast to help our team. After these changes Hydroid's Undertow was not about damage or offense but PURE UTILITY. There are several VITAL things actual Hydroid mains use Undertow for. 

1) MELEE

Let's go back to Scotts comments from 2014/2015.  The theme of Hydroid was being a melee fighter that used his abilities to quickly lock down, get in & out. A hit & run pirate frame. What Undertow gave Hydroid mains was openings & positioning for melee enhancement. Once you were in the midst of enemies, Undertow puts enemies in a vulnerable state. Once you arose out of Undertow, enemies were in a finish able state. The next melee attack on them did finisher damage & lots of it. You didn't have to sit STATIONARY. You could drop it then immediately come back up to get the crazy melee damage. The other thing was with the 2017 rework, Hydroid could now use jump to exit Undertow. What this allowed was for you to come out of Undertow & be in the air. Why do this? To get slam or heavy slam attacks with weapons which did what DE? Oh yeah proc his old passive of giving a tentacle(as crappy as that was). However on weapons that gave bonuses to this, it was really fun to do (again for Hydroid mains) you remember things like the Arca Titron, Ohma, Exodia Hunt, Tenet Exec, Lifted status effect?

2) Survivability

What Undertow gave Hydroid was survivability in another form. Where other frames have things like Iron Skin, Warding Halo, Mesmer Skins, invulnerability windows etc etc. Hydroid had his puddle. Orbital Strikes from Kela de Thaym? Puddle. Big Moa shockwaves? Puddle. Jackal energy waves? Puddle. Steel Path & got blasted by a Bombard? Puddle. Got scorpion yanked by an enemy? Puddle. Need 1 second of breathing room? Puddle. Need to reposition? Puddle then Tidal Surge. Need to heal just a bit? Puddle with Curative Undertow. Need to create an opening for something? Puddle then choose an ability. I have taken Hydroid into many, many hours of Steel Path Kurva Survival. You know what has saved me countless times? UNDERTOW for its sheer utility.

3) Synergy

Undertow enabled flexibility with his other abilties. Tempest Barrage allows enemies ins puddle to be status affected. Tidal Surge could be used for shorter distances & to puddle gather enemies. Tentacle Swarm got 200% percent damage when cast from Undertow. Are these synergies going to be given to the base ability somehow?

KEEP PUDDLE IN THE GAME SOMEHOW

What Undertow gave was OPTIONS DE....PLAYER CHOICE...VERSATILITY. The complete removal of this ability shows complete lack of understanding of how actual Hydroid mains are using Undertow & shows you don't understand how vital & frame defining it is for Hydroid. This is the ability that is the core identity for Hydroid's uniqueness. I really hope you listen to the feed back here on it because there are 2 really good ideas to still incorporate Undertow in some form.

1) Incorporate it somehow like you did Limbo's riftwalk. Via a dodge, crouch or something, Puddle utility/survivability needs to remain in the game somehow.

2) Apply it to his Tidal Surge ability. Make it a hold function. Tap to Surge, Hold to puddle. Again this is a vital core identity/ mechanic for Hydroid mains. The Puddle utility/survivability needs to remain in the game.

Tentacle Swarm:

Well to be honest I'm a bit conflicted here. This ability can go a couple different ways. It could be a more power/damage focused ability that just obliterates things or crowd control. If it remains as a CC ability, then the utility needs to be much better. The random spawn locations of the tentacles does need to be fixed though. With that said, while the Kraken has always been decent at Crowd Control, it's always made it harder for the team to kill enemies grabbed. These changes alleviate that issue by holding them straight. Pablo also said that if enemies walk into the area they will be grabbed by the Kraken. While the changes seem much better, it also makes the ability less fun? less lively? Less power fantasy? It's basically a reskin of Khora's Strangledome now....here's my thought process.

Hydroid is an ocean frame. The ocean is the most powerful force on Earth. Hydroid calls the Kraken...in Greek/Nordic mythology this was one of the most powerful creatures in existence. The Kraken was a force of nature that even some of the gods feared. In folklore the Kraken was just as powerful, feared & respected by sailors & maritime/ ocean cultures. Should the ability not reflect that lore/ reputation? Also, maybe the augment could be enhanced/buffed or even changed? Just a thought.

Final Thoughts

All in all, the rework seems interesting & I'm eager to test it out in game. I want to see where this puts my favorite frame in terms of functionality, modding & fun factor. However what I am adamant about is that some sort of Puddle functionality remains available to Hydroid. Without it, this kills a playstyle I have enjoyed for many years & what keeps me coming back to Warframe. Without it, I'm not sure if the same enjoyment will be there for me, I will have to see when the update come out. I'm all for having the Plunder ability to try out, but Undertow needs to be a riftwalk or applied to Tidal Surge.  All this feedback from Hydroid mains over the years & it seems DE has chosen to ignore us Hydroids mains as usual. As I said I usually never speak up on forums but this is my "that 1 guy who complained about Conclave to Steve changes" This is my hill & I'll stay fighting on it. If not it might be time to move on.

If anybody read all of this, kudos to you. To any remaining true Hydroid mains, I salute you brothers keep up the good fight.

Much love to every Tenno out there & happy hunting!

Amen my dude

#savethepuddle

[HiFixx]

On 2023-10-02 at 6:26 PM, (NSW)Greybones said:

Also, don’t try and pass off the idea of the new ability promoting movement for anything other than faster clear times;

Undertow:

• This ability is being removed and replaced with Plunder.
  • Undertow is an ability which we feel makes Hydroid a bit less fun to play as, or play with. There are two main reasons we decided to replace this ability:
    • It forces the player to be stationary, while many objectives rely on regular movement.
    • It absorbs enemies without instantly killing them, which can lead to instances of hiding enemies that a teammate was trying to kill.

You can find this in their dev workshop under Hydroid Rework. Sorry for giving you the impression that I alone was passing off the idea. Was never my intention.

[(NSW)Greybones]

55 minutes ago, HiFixx said:

Undertow:

• This ability is being removed and replaced with Plunder.
  • Undertow is an ability which we feel makes Hydroid a bit less fun to play as, or play with. There are two main reasons we decided to replace this ability:
    • It forces the player to be stationary, while many objectives rely on regular movement.
    • It absorbs enemies without instantly killing them, which can lead to instances of hiding enemies that a teammate was trying to kill.

You can find this in their dev workshop under Hydroid Rework. Sorry for giving you the impression that I alone was passing off the idea. Was never my intention.

They’re still not speaking on the level of your standard player who blazes through the mission and builds the way they do in order to not deal with the game. If DE made it a little more mobile, sure; if they made it a little more conducive to team play, sure. Your standard player isn’t particularly wanting to be in a multiplayer match when they design and bring builds meant to solo the whole thing, but I can understand that the problems highlighted can have nuanced and fun solutions that maybe I’d try and go “Wow, they made it more fun to use!”

Many objectives do rely on regular movement, but it’s also a mix of staying localised for either defending the objective or keeping in a fight; mobile defense in particular stands out as one of those fun “You gotta figure out how to keep nearby enough to keep the objective alive, but being near is risky; you gotta keep your distance, but the objective’s at risk” and that ever-fluctuating balance of where to be at what time using what abilities or options that have been brought to the fight to make use of the positioning and movement for survival afforded according to how the fight is going.

Your standard player on the other hand is going “Herp derp, big damage AoE bulletjump through everything”, it’s no wonder they’re latching onto a change that seems uninspired and simplified for the sake of a bunch of players who can’t be bothered thinking beyond a button press, and I’m certain that DE could give it a little more consideration and make an ability that can be fun like Puddle but, if it seriously needs it and it’s not just for the sake of a bunch of players who think that Power Fantasy = no playing around who think that the game needs to be designed like they want to play (which is uninspired and boring as well), better and even more fun to use

edit: Or give it as an optional on-hold. It doesn’t need to be disappeared if Mag can get a weird on-hold effect like what was shown in the cinematic

double edit: I see you, players who read about having to actually make decisions in a fight about things like when and where and how to engage the enemy, and who are thinking to themselves “Why not, out of all the options available, just use X build or Y loadout which is designed to remove all of that…?” Who’s to say I don’t as a sometimes thing, eh?

Edited October 4, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[bangarang35]

22 hours ago, (XBOX)N7ShadowedSoul said:

Ok DE I really hope you're seeing the feedback from actual Hydroid players & will be making adjustments accordingly.

 

First off let me say I am not a casual Hydroid player. I am a DEVOUT Hydroid main & have loyally played him since nearly Warframe's release on Xbox back in 2015. He was the very first frame I went & got. I have played him in every bit of content this game has had in 8 years. DE I have been playing him since stamina & stamina stats were a thing. Back in that day he had the highest stamina stat of the available frames. I remember a dev stream where Scott was talking about the thought/theme of Hydroid was being a melee fighter that used his abilities to quickly lock down, get in & out. A hit & run pirate frame. This is how I have played him for 8 years. While every other player has chosen the new damage heavy, nuke a map OP frames...not me I have loved my Hydroid. He may not be perfect, he may not be the best but he is the Warframe I enjoy the most. He is the frame I continue to choose to play Warframe for. DE I have more time on Hydroid/ Hydroid Prime than pretty much most of the frames combined. I was there when you guys made the changes/rework to him in 2017. Most of the changes were good, some of them changed his mechanics/modding for the worse. However I'm not one to get on the forums & post really EVER. However this rework, I definitely felt I needed to say something. While most of these changes seem interesting, good or straight improvements there are some major concerns.

Tempest Barrage:

Back before the changes/rework of Hydroid in 2017 the ability range stat had significant impact on the effectiveness of this ability. Range would affect the circular area of effect of where the barrage would land. A preferred mod setup would actually lower the range & up the ability strength so you could cluster all the barrage into a focused area thereby increasing the consistency of the damage. Combining this with Corrosive Barrage (pre corrosive status changes) this enabled a very effective armor strip while giving decently solid damage. Well, your changes in 2017 destroyed this functionality & setup. The range got changed to affect the explosion radius of the water bombs themself with them landing randomly in the pre set radius. You effectively killed both the decent damage output & armor strip capability of Tempest Barrage. The changes to corrosive status procs further made this ability augment worse. On top of that instead of just staggering or knocking down enemies it hit, the changes to impact damage now made them ragdoll out of the ability. The main question here is with these new changes, how is the ability range stat going to function now? Hopefully its more towards the pre 2017 rework.

Tidal Surge:

I can't think of any issue with your rework here for this ability itself. Better qol, better responsiveness, CC. On paper it seems good. Hopefully it feels good in game.

Undertow:

Here begins my biggest gripe point. Good God this is a HORRIBLE choice to just completely remove this from the game. So pre 2017 rework the puddle had alot larger aoe. While not effective in terms of damage, I understand the changes to its base function then. It was not fun. However, what the rework gave us was the ability to cast our other abilities from Undertow. Also, a niche function of being able to grab enemies with tentacle to pull them in. That was a significantly positive change. However, the other changes you made to it then were a combination of not understanding the frame & unnecessary nerfs. When the 2017 rework came out, enemies submerged in Undertow were dealt TRUE DAMAGE. While the damage was meh it did ramp up. Furthermore, when you combined this with Corroding Barrage this allowed the damage to be significantly improved & ramped up so much quicker. You could within 2-5 seconds kill very beefy targets in your Undertow. While not even remotely the strongest thing in the game, it was unique. Surge into a group of enemies, drop undertow, grab a few targets you missed with tentacles, hit them with Corroding Barrage & watch them die. It was more engaging. More importantly, it was FUN FOR ACTUAL HYDROID PLAYERS. Then for whatever reason, you guys decided this was too strong & changed the damage type to IMPACT, arguably the worst damage type in the game. You again just like Tempest/Corroding Barrage effectively killed the function of this ability. In a game where we had Saryn, Volt, Equinox nuking entire rooms in seconds, you decided that THIS/ UNDERTOW was on that level where it needed a nerf into nonexistence? Give me a break. Here's your reasoning.

• Undertow is an ability which we feel makes Hydroid a bit less fun to play as, or play with. There are two main reasons we decided to replace this ability:
  • It forces the player to be stationary, while many objectives rely on regular movement.
  • It absorbs enemies without instantly killing them, which can lead to instances of hiding enemies that a teammate was trying to kill.

Your nerfs in 2017 made this happen. You caused what you are saying. Hydroid players never wanted Undertow to be completely stationary or low on the damage. You made those choices. A 1 meter a second move speed was ridiculous, who decided that was a good idea at the time? The absorbing enemies without instantly killing them? Thats a direct effect from your nerfs! Hiding enemies that the team is trying to kill? No actual Hydroid main wants that either, we want to be able to kill the enemies just as fast to help our team. After these changes Hydroid's Undertow was not about damage or offense but PURE UTILITY. There are several VITAL things actual Hydroid mains use Undertow for. 

1) MELEE

Let's go back to Scotts comments from 2014/2015.  The theme of Hydroid was being a melee fighter that used his abilities to quickly lock down, get in & out. A hit & run pirate frame. What Undertow gave Hydroid mains was openings & positioning for melee enhancement. Once you were in the midst of enemies, Undertow puts enemies in a vulnerable state. Once you arose out of Undertow, enemies were in a finish able state. The next melee attack on them did finisher damage & lots of it. You didn't have to sit STATIONARY. You could drop it then immediately come back up to get the crazy melee damage. The other thing was with the 2017 rework, Hydroid could now use jump to exit Undertow. What this allowed was for you to come out of Undertow & be in the air. Why do this? To get slam or heavy slam attacks with weapons which did what DE? Oh yeah proc his old passive of giving a tentacle(as crappy as that was). However on weapons that gave bonuses to this, it was really fun to do (again for Hydroid mains) you remember things like the Arca Titron, Ohma, Exodia Hunt, Tenet Exec, Lifted status effect?

2) Survivability

What Undertow gave Hydroid was survivability in another form. Where other frames have things like Iron Skin, Warding Halo, Mesmer Skins, invulnerability windows etc etc. Hydroid had his puddle. Orbital Strikes from Kela de Thaym? Puddle. Big Moa shockwaves? Puddle. Jackal energy waves? Puddle. Steel Path & got blasted by a Bombard? Puddle. Got scorpion yanked by an enemy? Puddle. Need 1 second of breathing room? Puddle. Need to reposition? Puddle then Tidal Surge. Need to heal just a bit? Puddle with Curative Undertow. Need to create an opening for something? Puddle then choose an ability. I have taken Hydroid into many, many hours of Steel Path Kurva Survival. You know what has saved me countless times? UNDERTOW for its sheer utility.

3) Synergy

Undertow enabled flexibility with his other abilties. Tempest Barrage allows enemies ins puddle to be status affected. Tidal Surge could be used for shorter distances & to puddle gather enemies. Tentacle Swarm got 200% percent damage when cast from Undertow. Are these synergies going to be given to the base ability somehow?

KEEP PUDDLE IN THE GAME SOMEHOW

What Undertow gave was OPTIONS DE....PLAYER CHOICE...VERSATILITY. The complete removal of this ability shows complete lack of understanding of how actual Hydroid mains are using Undertow & shows you don't understand how vital & frame defining it is for Hydroid. This is the ability that is the core identity for Hydroid's uniqueness. I really hope you listen to the feed back here on it because there are 2 really good ideas to still incorporate Undertow in some form.

1) Incorporate it somehow like you did Limbo's riftwalk. Via a dodge, crouch or something, Puddle utility/survivability needs to remain in the game somehow.

2) Apply it to his Tidal Surge ability. Make it a hold function. Tap to Surge, Hold to puddle. Again this is a vital core identity/ mechanic for Hydroid mains. The Puddle utility/survivability needs to remain in the game.

Tentacle Swarm:

Well to be honest I'm a bit conflicted here. This ability can go a couple different ways. It could be a more power/damage focused ability that just obliterates things or crowd control. If it remains as a CC ability, then the utility needs to be much better. The random spawn locations of the tentacles does need to be fixed though. With that said, while the Kraken has always been decent at Crowd Control, it's always made it harder for the team to kill enemies grabbed. These changes alleviate that issue by holding them straight. Pablo also said that if enemies walk into the area they will be grabbed by the Kraken. While the changes seem much better, it also makes the ability less fun? less lively? Less power fantasy? It's basically a reskin of Khora's Strangledome now....here's my thought process.

Hydroid is an ocean frame. The ocean is the most powerful force on Earth. Hydroid calls the Kraken...in Greek/Nordic mythology this was one of the most powerful creatures in existence. The Kraken was a force of nature that even some of the gods feared. In folklore the Kraken was just as powerful, feared & respected by sailors & maritime/ ocean cultures. Should the ability not reflect that lore/ reputation? Also, maybe the augment could be enhanced/buffed or even changed? Just a thought.

Final Thoughts

All in all, the rework seems interesting & I'm eager to test it out in game. I want to see where this puts my favorite frame in terms of functionality, modding & fun factor. However what I am adamant about is that some sort of Puddle functionality remains available to Hydroid. Without it, this kills a playstyle I have enjoyed for many years & what keeps me coming back to Warframe. Without it, I'm not sure if the same enjoyment will be there for me, I will have to see when the update come out. I'm all for having the Plunder ability to try out, but Undertow needs to be a riftwalk or applied to Tidal Surge.  All this feedback from Hydroid mains over the years & it seems DE has chosen to ignore us Hydroids mains as usual. As I said I usually never speak up on forums but this is my "that 1 guy who complained about Conclave to Steve changes" This is my hill & I'll stay fighting on it. If not it might be time to move on.

If anybody read all of this, kudos to you. To any remaining true Hydroid mains, I salute you brothers keep up the good fight.

Much love to every Tenno out there & happy hunting!

Smart man. Clearly someone who understands the frame. Very interesting points that a lot of the current problems from undertow actually were caused by the first rework.

 

I agree with you, ESPCIALLY on the puddle. Adding on armor cannot compare with the survivability that undertow offers. Also, a simple buff is not as unique or fun as undertow. Buffs are effective and easy to implement. I feel like buffs are a minimal effort way to make a character better. It's just a simple stat boost. doesn't require any cool visuals or interesting mechanics. It's just bigger numbers. The  puddle has to stay in his kit somehow. Whether it remains as a charged mechanic or DE just put it on the open crouch/roll mechanics like Limbo. It has to stay though. That survivability is SOOO important to him. The puddle can be  tweaked as needed but it's just too important to Hydroid.

I have to watch how DE handles this because it's going to say a lot about DE's mentality in regards to reworks. I'm an Inaros main and this could possibly say a lot about how they handle his future rework too, along with any other frames. Come on Pablo! Don't pick the easy way, pick the path that makes Hydroid the most fun, effective, and unique.

 

Like I said before, this is probably b-tier even with my grievances with Undertow potentially being removed. But why settle for a decent B when Hydroid could be an A. Help the pirate and save the puddle. Wisp has a kamehameha and she's S tier so that just shows us how  important it is too have cool unique visuals, have fun, and be effective. Nothing tops kamehameha, but still you gotta throw Hydroid a bone too lol

 

#TweakUndertow

#SaveUndertow

Edited October 4, 2023 by bangarang35

[HiFixx]

53 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I’m certain that DE could give it a little more consideration and make an ability that can be fun like Puddle but, if it seriously needs it and it’s not just for the sake of a bunch of players who think that Power Fantasy = no playing around who think that the game needs to be designed like they want to play (which is uninspired and boring as well), better and even more fun to use

I'm only replying to this piece here, cause you did make a solid point on everything else, but take into consideration the scale of what Hydroid's going to be doing now. I get that DE could've made something work for puddle, or even just merge it with his 2nd as that seems like a popular choice by the community, even I'm on board with them on making it work like that. Realistically though, it opens up to some bad habits that DE considers a big no-no, like being AFK. They nerfed Wukong for that exact reason, his 1st ability gave a lot of players the habit of going AFK while the clone went to work. It got gutted alongside AoE weapons, so going AFK is a lot harder to do. Now imagine what would happen if they had left undertow. It would just be going right back to square 1 again, with players wanting to go AFK over using their neurons. I get that not everyone does this, but a good chunk of players enjoy the "play and not play the game" route, and DE's taking their past mistakes into consideration to avoid it from happening a 2nd time. Not that plunder might give players some new bad habits, but we'll just have to wait and see.