The new Pack Leader seems flawed

[Aruquae]

Quote

 

• Pack Leader has been changed. Instead of healing your Companion by 36% of melee damage inflicted, it now restores 50 Health per melee hit. Excess healing becomes Overguard instead, with a maximum of 600 Overguard.
• Primed Pack Leader increases Pack Leader effect to 92 Health restored per hit, and increases Overguard cap to 1100.

Dev note: Pack Leader's healing was so strong that, functionally, any upgraded melee weapon would fully heal your Companion in a single hit. You would hit an enemy for several thousand damage, and your pet would proportionately receive thousands of Health. This change tries to make the healing values more sensible so that you can heal your Companion efficiently but not *instantly*. By letting you overflow into Overguard, it also provides some extra ability to tank large hits.

Pack leader is finally getting fixed which is amazing! Only problem is the flat 50 health restored PER HIT. I’m the type of player that likes slow, powerful melee (hammers, glaives, etc.) so when I saw this I was confused. In the midst of melee, the flat 50 health can be good for very fast weapons like Praedos, but absolutely terrible on things such as a glaive or hammer without speed mods. Another problem is the 50 health in itself. 50 health is good for pets with around 600 health, but once it gets past 1k, it’s going to be very hard to replenish their health especially if they’re taking more damage then you can heal. I propose a solution, keep it percent based, but a percent of the MAX HEALTH of the COMPANION. Every melee hit should replenish a certain percentage of health depending on the amount of health from the companion. Light/normal attacks could fill like 6% while heavy attacks could fill around 30%. Percents are just examples. Thoughts?

Edited October 17, 2023 by Malikili
Typo

[Tsukinoki]

Two things immediately sprang to mind:
-This is "50 health per hit", not attack.
You have to remember that most of the time you're melee attacks aren't hitting just one enemy, and slam attacks with the big heavy weapons will hit quite a few enemies at once providing a decent sudden health boost to your pet.

Sure if you're one-on-one fighting an enemy you won't be healing your pet much....but how often does that actually happen in warframe?

 

-Also remember that this comes with all pets getting auto  revives after a short duration (with mods to shorten that duration quite a bit if you're proactive about it), and Pablo has confirmed that a pet being down won't turn off vacuum or radar.
So with the above taken into consideration the mod allows you to keep your pet active a bit longer...but it's not like dieing will cause any major loss of functionality or anything else as they'll get themselves up a short time later and rejoin combat.

 

For most normal levels of play I think it'll do just fine in helping keeping the pets alive.

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

My thoughts are that I'll get my hands on it and test, looking at it doesn't seem too bad since enemies will have to go through shields before reaching health and when the pet health is full you can get overguard giving it even more protection. We'll see I guess.

[Zakkhar]

43 minutes ago, Malikili said:

Pack leader is finally getting fixed

More like massively nerfed.

[Pizzarugi]

People actually use Pack Leader? I looked at it and thought "nice waste of a mod slot when I fight enemies that can 1shot my companion". And look, now it's even a waste for base level Steel Path content!

[Aruquae]

35 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Two things immediately sprang to mind:
-This is "50 health per hit", not attack.
You have to remember that most of the time you're melee attacks aren't hitting just one enemy, and slam attacks with the big heavy weapons will hit quite a few enemies at once providing a decent sudden health boost to your pet.

Sure if you're one-on-one fighting an enemy you won't be healing your pet much....but how often does that actually happen in warframe?

 

-Also remember that this comes with all pets getting auto  revives after a short duration (with mods to shorten that duration quite a bit if you're proactive about it), and Pablo has confirmed that a pet being down won't turn off vacuum or radar.
So with the above taken into consideration the mod allows you to keep your pet active a bit longer...but it's not like dieing will cause any major loss of functionality or anything else as they'll get themselves up a short time later and rejoin combat.

 

For most normal levels of play I think it'll do just fine in helping keeping the pets alive.

Ah yes, I realize it was hit and not attack

Hopefully as you’re putting it, is the way they intended. 

And yes, in regards to the pet just being incapacitated I’m fine with it dying as it can come back, but I don’t want it to ALWAYS be dead. Like with the current vulpaphyla or djinn

36 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

My thoughts are that I'll get my hands on it and test, looking at it doesn't seem too bad since enemies will have to go through shields before reaching health and when the pet health is full you can get overguard giving it even more protection. We'll see I guess.

I figured this too

Which is why I titled it “The new Pack Leader seems to be flawed” and not “is flawed.” I was simply pointing out my initial thoughts on this, and if this would put an accidental favor to speedy melees.

[Aruquae]

On 2023-10-17 at 12:00 PM, Pizzarugi said:

People actually use Pack Leader? I looked at it and thought "nice waste of a mod slot when I fight enemies that can 1shot my companion". And look, now it's even a waste for base level Steel Path content!

I use pack leader. It’s not much, but it’s something. Better than nothing. 
It’s also very good with link mods. Garuda is naturally tanky.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Malikili
Edited for clarity

[-Krism-]

10 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

People actually use Pack Leader?

Yeah, so?

[(XBOX)Hellsteeth30]

I'm allergic to anything Fortuna so I use Pack Leader (no Synth Fibre).

[Her_Lovely_Tentacles]

An alternative solution to 50 HP per hit might be something like 40% of unmodded damage.

That way, naturally slow heavy hitters would at least get a bit extra out of it

Edited October 17, 2023 by Her_Lovely_Tentacles

[Tiltskillet]

53 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

More like massively nerfed.

A nerf can also be a fix.  DE is definitely trying for both in this case, since there was almost no reason to use a ranked Primed Pack Leader over a partially ranked regular version.  As long a the mod is still worth consideration for a slot on a melee build, I won't be unhappy with the change.  I won't know until I test it for a while.

That being said, I wish they were improving it by making some of the life steal work on ranged weapon damage, so it wasn't absolutely reliant on melee builds.  But oh well.

 

[Aruquae]

7 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

A nerf can also be a fix.  DE is definitely trying for both in this case, since there was almost no reason to use a ranked Primed Pack Leader over a partially ranked regular version.  As long a the mod is still worth consideration for a slot on a melee build, I won't be unhappy with the change.  I won't know until I test it for a while.

That being said, I wish they were improving it by making some of the life steal work on ranged weapon damage, so it wasn't absolutely reliant on melee builds.  But oh well.

 

Ranged lifesteal would be nice, how would it work? Even with what we have, when it comes to weapons we either got slow heavy hitters, or very fast heavy hitters. 

 

17 minutes ago, Her_Lovely_Tentacles said:

A alternative solution to 50 HP per hit might be something like 40% of unmodded damage.

That way, naturally slow heavy hitters would at least get a bit extra out of it

Unmodded damage? This can work with most melees. Slower weapons are naturally stronger at base.

[Tiltskillet]

17 minutes ago, Malikili said:

Ranged lifesteal would be nice, how would it work? Even with what we have, when it comes to weapons we either got slow heavy hitters, or very fast heavy hitters. 

I don't know, other than it would need to be less than melee.  Perhaps restricting it to direct damage.

I don't think there is any elegant and simple way to get around the divide between slow and fast weapons though.  Even percentage-based doesn't, since even now weaker but more constant lifesteal from fast melee works better for pets than  bigger lifesteal from slower melee does.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

8 hours ago, Malikili said:

Thoughts?

Nunchakus might finally become meta lol. 

per hit isn't that bad since you can hit multiple enemies at once, especially with heavy blades and other large weapons, though I would agree that heavy attacks should grant more health back: Life Strike has this exact function, where heavy attacks can restore most, if not all, lost health, so it's already in the game, just not for companions.

either way, it's looking like the gun-based companion mods will work better anyway, so I'll just be using those. if my properly modded companions can actually survive a steel path run, I'll consider part 1 of the rework a success. 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by (PSN)robotwars7

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Personally, am taking a wait and see approach. The information give so far, doesn't really answer some of the questions I have, and contextually, other changes may partially offset some of my worries. Less than a day away, so I'd rather just wait and test out then give feedback. Does seem like like a bit of a nerf, but eh. 

Also, I liked using Pack Leader. My Kavats and Kubrows rarely died in Steel Path 2+ hours (in some modes that gets deep level wise, but for transparency sake, I get really bored by then, so 90/100 mins is usually when I like to extract, so I don't reach level cap often). I also duo/PUB, and see others pets die more frequently, so eh. Maybe because I use Stropha/Glaive a lot, and they are longer range and pretty convenient for topping off pets healths via Pack Leader, but the idea that some people don't find it useful is whats alien and foreign to me. 

[Tiltskillet]

28 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

but the idea that some people don't find it useful is whats alien and foreign to me. 

One guess I have is that a lot of people don't use melee much, and/or don't want to feel constrained to do so.   Another guess is that so many people are using Panzer full time, and don't feel lifesteal is a priority on top of its self-revive when deciding between Pack Leader and another mod.  I could probably come up wit more reasons if I spent some time thinking about it.

So I can understand people not finding it useful, I guess.  But issuing a proclamation that it's useless without further qualification is funny to me. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Tiltskillet

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

25 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

One guess I have is that a lot of people don't use melee much, and/or don't want to feel constrained to do so.   Another guess is that so many people are using Panzer full time, and don't feel lifesteal is a priority on top of its self-revive when deciding between Pack Leader and another mod.  I could probably come up wit more reasons if I spent some time thinking about it.

So I can understand people not finding it useful, I guess.  But issuing a proclamation that it's useless without further qualification is funny to me. 

 

Oh, I get those reasons too, and can think of some. My own wording wasn't the best, I more meant in a situational relative way. For example, on some of my builds, Link Armour and Link Health aren't getting too much benefit (I have some builds, on squishier Warframes, that have zero stat boosting mods, because say, they are Ivara or Loki) but the idea everyone or no one uses Link Health/Armour mods is likewise bemusing to me. Especially if its about perceived effectiveness versus actual or potential effectiveness. Like the other day I saw some people talking about Arcane Energise and questioning its value. (Who uses that useless thing anyway?)

[Pizzarugi]

22 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

One guess I have is that a lot of people don't use melee much, and/or don't want to feel constrained to do so.   Another guess is that so many people are using Panzer full time, and don't feel lifesteal is a priority on top of its self-revive when deciding between Pack Leader and another mod.  I could probably come up wit more reasons if I spent some time thinking about it.

So I can understand people not finding it useful, I guess.  But issuing a proclamation that it's useless without further qualification is funny to me. 

I didn't use Pack Leader since before Panzer existed, so I can at least give my perspective on it.

When you do endless missions to the point enemies becomes powerful enough to 1shot your pet, it's pretty much useless since no amount of healing is going to stop one single hit from knocking them out. Leading up to that, you'd be stuck having to melee all of the time to prevent them from getting melted by enemy attacks even if melee isn't your strongest weapon or you just don't like mashing the attack button. Another problem with it is if you do happen to like melee, it's going to be a terrible mod if you roll slow and heavy weapons. You like the Gram Prime? Guess the mod's not gonna get much mileage out your choice of weapon. Like 2h nikanas, you absolute masochist? Same issue.

You'd be better off just reviving your pet since then they'd be invulnerable for a few seconds before getting insta-downed again. That way you can install something useful like more radar or Sharpened Claws for some passive armor strip.

On the plus side, with the new overhaul to pets coming soon, you could replace the new, more awful Pack Leader with one of the mods to rez them faster.

[Tiltskillet]

1 minute ago, Pizzarugi said:

When you do endless missions to the point enemies becomes powerful enough to 1shot your pet, it's pretty much useless since no amount of healing is going to stop one single hit from knocking them out.

And that's an example of a good qualification.  Rather than "Pack Leader is useless, lol" it's "Pretty much useless in in long endurance", and coming from somebody who is talking from experience.

How long is that, approximately? I don't play for longer than 45 minutes (outside of Circuit, where it's immaterial) so I don't have a number in mind. Confuzzled suggested 100 minutes isn't much of a problem for them.

[Aruquae]

9 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

And that's an example of a good qualification.  Rather than "Pack Leader is useless, lol" it's "Pretty much useless in in long endurance", and coming from somebody who is talking from experience.

How long is that, approximately? I don't play for longer than 45 minutes (outside of Circuit, where it's immaterial) so I don't have a number in mind. Confuzzled suggested 100 minutes isn't much of a problem for them.

Also depends on if you modded your pets with health and armor. Even with pack leader, if you’re warframe is a glass cannon, or just low stats with DR (which won’t carry on to the pet), then your pet will still get one shot in a simple SP node. Tanky though, they can go a decent way. If you’re getting to the levels of a circulus survival though, melee to keep them alive becomes more prominent.

 

10 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Personally, am taking a wait and see approach. The information give so far, doesn't really answer some of the questions I have, and contextually, other changes may partially offset some of my worries. Less than a day away, so I'd rather just wait and test out then give feedback. Does seem like like a bit of a nerf, but eh. 

Also, I liked using Pack Leader. My Kavats and Kubrows rarely died in Steel Path 2+ hours (in some modes that gets deep level wise, but for transparency sake, I get really bored by then, so 90/100 mins is usually when I like to extract, so I don't reach level cap often). I also duo/PUB, and see others pets die more frequently, so eh. Maybe because I use Stropha/Glaive a lot, and they are longer range and pretty convenient for topping off pets healths via Pack Leader, but the idea that some people don't find it useful is whats alien and foreign to me. 

Not talking about nerfs, just talking about how slower melee weapons would be at a disadvantage with keeping your pet alive. TLDR faster weapons seemed to be favorited. Of course we will have to wait and see, but posting problems that might surface can help people in making sure they never surface.

Also like a doof, I forgot to think about it being per HIT meaning if you hit MULTIPLE, then it counts as a HIT each for each enemy 

19 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

This is "50 health per hit", not attack

And I thank you for that flaw in my rational.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Malikili said:

Also depends on if you modded your pets with health and armor. Even with pack leader, if you’re warframe is a glass cannon, or just low stats with DR (which won’t carry on to the pet), then your pet will still get one shot in a simple SP node. Tanky though, they can go a decent way. If you’re getting to the levels of a circulus survival though, melee to keep them alive becomes more prominent.

Modding shouldnt be a problem after the update. With the non-link mods and new stats for the pets most of if not all of them should end up at a tankyness level equal to their current tankyness with a decent tank frame and link-mods equipped.

Plus in the modes where Pack Leader is currently useful we should likely hit so many mobs in quick succession that health should fill followed by OG in a matter of seconds. And if you only carry a weapon to keep the pet alive, things like Contagion, Glaives and Gunblades should fill up the pet very quickly. The first two should likely refill thousands of HP in a single use due to the AoE and depending on how pellet gunblades work they might be even better. Plus you can pre-heal the pet as shields take damage since you'll get overguard from overhealing, while currently we need to wait to heal a pet until they actually take health damage, which can go poof quickly in some cases.

Edited October 18, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

It doesn't sound like a good change but will wait to see how well we will be able to heal later today. It makes sense they wanted primed pack leader to be more worth but thats really all the good I could say.

[SneakyErvin]

9 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

It doesn't sound like a good change but will wait to see how well we will be able to heal later today. It makes sense they wanted primed pack leader to be more worth but thats really all the good I could say.

Even the normal pack leader has no real value as is, since leveling it is pointless due to how much damage we deal and how little health pets have. Like every other % based healing in the game. So it is understandable they go from % to a flat value on this. Something they should really do with all % based healing in the game, no matter if it is skills like gloom or something tied to mods.

6% out of say 100k is still 6k healed, in comparison the pet on my Lavos has uhm 4300 something health. And that is 6k healed if a single mob is hit by my melee and I only deal 100k on a hit.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

10 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Even the normal pack leader has no real value as is, since leveling it is pointless due to how much damage we deal and how little health pets have. Like every other % based healing in the game. So it is understandable they go from % to a flat value on this. Something they should really do with all % based healing in the game, no matter if it is skills like gloom or something tied to mods.

6% out of say 100k is still 6k healed, in comparison the pet on my Lavos has uhm 4300 something health. And that is 6k healed if a single mob is hit by my melee and I only deal 100k on a hit.

On a melee build, it reliability keeps your pet alive as long as you are killing. This is true for at least 1-2 hr on a sp survival fissure. The new version is a straight up nerf. The mod is currently very effective but yes primed was useless because of that. Pets currently cannot keep themselves alive and this was one of the few ways to do that. This may not be the case soon.

Edited October 18, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna

[Yamazuki]

11 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

I didn't use Pack Leader since before Panzer existed, so I can at least give my perspective on it.

When you do endless missions to the point enemies becomes powerful enough to 1shot your pet, it's pretty much useless since no amount of healing is going to stop one single hit from knocking them out. Leading up to that, you'd be stuck having to melee all of the time to prevent them from getting melted by enemy attacks even if melee isn't your strongest weapon or you just don't like mashing the attack button. Another problem with it is if you do happen to like melee, it's going to be a terrible mod if you roll slow and heavy weapons. You like the Gram Prime? Guess the mod's not gonna get much mileage out your choice of weapon. Like 2h nikanas, you absolute masochist? Same issue.

You'd be better off just reviving your pet since then they'd be invulnerable for a few seconds before getting insta-downed again. That way you can install something useful like more radar or Sharpened Claws for some passive armor strip.

On the plus side, with the new overhaul to pets coming soon, you could replace the new, more awful Pack Leader with one of the mods to rez them faster.

Majority of people do not sit in an endless mission long enough for Pack Leader to be useless. The usefulness for most people would come down to the defensive stats of the Warframe they are choosing, and whether a Wisp is present or not.

Regardless, even if DE were to balance Warframe better, it would make zero sense to do so from the perspective of extended endless runs.

Really would have been nice if the basic utility aspects of companions had been removed from them and handled differently, that way it would not ever matter if they were dead or not. What ever combat benefits they provide is inconsequential and most people just don't enjoy losing the basics.