Just realize Gauss is the better Ember

[Marvelous_A]

-They both have DR ability based on meter

-Both have radial AoE that can strip armor that again based on meter

-Both have AoE nuke

 

The thing is Gauss does everything better than Ember.

>Gauss' meter has no negative effect so you only need to fill it up, you can just spam TS or run really fast

>Kinetic Plating is cast-and-forget ability, does not need any attention other than refreshing it time-to-time, doesn't drain all your energy if left unattended, offers immunity to knockdown and stagger

>Thermal Sunder is Fire Blast+Inferno combined except it costs way less to cast, strips armor too, deals way more scaling fire damage, can scale infinitely, can proc 3 different elements, benefited by Redline, has better augment

>Thermal Sunder can stack heat proc exponentially and does 50% more damage than Fire Blast even at 0% battery. It deals 1500 initial damage at max battery. Fire Blast deals a laughable 200 damage that doesn't even scale. Inferno has no scaling and only deals 2500+700/s damage, and it costs 10 energy per target. It also f**ks up your immolation meter if you spam it. You can spam TS non-stop once you reach 100% in Redline because it won't drain battery anymore

>Let's just ignore the other benefits of TS and Redline because Ember simply doesn't have those functionality

 

Basically my point is Ember buff when

[Divinehero]

i mean sure but ember cna strip with a much longer range

[Marvelous_A]

29 minutes ago, Divinehero said:

i mean sure but ember cna strip with a much longer range

Yes and I think armor stripping is the only advantage Ember has over Gauss. Still FB is costly AF with the 75 energy cost and you need 2 casts to fully strip armor at 0% meter.

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

hace 33 minutos, Divinehero dijo:

I mean sure but ember can strip with a much longer range.

I mean sure but:

• Fire Blast Knocks and spreads enemies away, which is counter productive for Inferno.
• Has LoS checks which makes it so only the enemies visible at the moment of cast are affected.
• Has poor energy economy by default that is to be fixed with an augment and that only takes it that far.
• Throws lvl 1 wizard spells (Fireballs).

Gauss;

• Converts taken damage to energy.
• Has outright immunity to some types once his Redline limit is achieved.
• Can group up enemies with an augment or if you use TS, although if they are already in TS range, pulling them in even more isn't all that needed.
• Creates an AoE that goes through walls and needn't check if enemy is visible to affect it, with a constant energy requirement per cast instead of reliant on how many enemies you have on you direct LoS.
• Said AoE is much bigger  than the one generated by each inferno meteor, which means it can target multiple enemies simultaneously without relying on needing as much range, and its time to cast is nearly-instantaneous making it way quicker to scale in damage as well.
• Speaking of scaling, has dual scaling, a cap-less initial hit that hits twice as hard per cast + heat DoTs that also become twice as lethal per cast.

There's a few nitpicks more about why Gauss is extremely superior, and as someone who loves to play him, but have my fair share of time spent on Ember, I can easily say that "can armour strip with a much longer range" is not a favourable argument for Ember when the line of sight checks are taken into account. Ember is almost equally as engaging and active as Gauss, but she's far from being as good. It's like comparing Nyx to Xaku.

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

i agree 100%.

i kept trying to like ember, but she has too many issues, gauss is 1000x better with very similar (more like flat out superior) capabilities and like 1000x better user input.

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

17 minutes ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

I mean sure but:

• Fire Blast Knocks and spreads enemies away, which is counter productive for Inferno.
• Has LoS checks which makes it so only the enemies visible at the moment of cast are affected.
• Has poor energy economy by default that is to be fixed with an augment and that only takes it that far.
• Throws lvl 1 wizard spells (Fireballs).

Gauss;

• Converts taken damage to energy.
• Has outright immunity to some types once his Redline limit is achieved.
• Can group up enemies with an augment or if you use TS, although if they are already in TS range, pulling them in even more isn't all that needed.
• Creates an AoE that goes through walls and needn't check if enemy is visible to affect it, with a constant energy requirement per cast instead of reliant on how many enemies you have on you direct LoS.
• Said AoE is much bigger  than the one generated by each inferno meteor, which means it can target multiple enemies simultaneously without relying on needing as much range, and its time to cast is nearly-instantaneous making it way quicker to scale in damage as well.
• Speaking of scaling, has dual scaling, a cap-less initial hit that hits twice as hard per cast + heat DoTs that also become twice as lethal per cast.

There's a few nitpicks more about why Gauss is extremely superior, and as someone who loves to play him, but have my fair share of time spent on Ember, I can easily say that "can armour strip with a much longer range" is not a favourable argument for Ember when the line of sight checks are taken into account. Ember is almost equally as engaging and active as Gauss, but she's far from being as good. It's like comparing Nyx to Xaku.

atleast Nyx has immortality and gigantic crowd control.

[sunderthefirmament]

48 minutes ago, (NSW)Royal_Elf_Mika said:

atleast Nyx has immortality and gigantic crowd control.

Her immortality depends upon an augment to be even somewhat useable, and even then it's too punitive to be worthwhile when shield gating exists.  And Xaku has giant crowd control too.  Build them for max max max range and enough strength for the full strip on the 3.  Then use the 1st version of Xaku's 3rd ability (Accuse).  You can convert half the map.  Or, if you have a console host, you can likely convert every enemy the game can even spawn.  Unlike Nyx's CC, the enemies won't still shoot you.

 

Nyx enjoyed a brief period of relevance when Steel Path was new, CC still mattered, and armor stripping was a lot harder to do.  Now we have Helminth abilities that fully strip defenses with fewer restrictions than Nyx's psychic bolts.  And CC doesn't mean anywhere near as much as it did.  Nyx, as a result, is overshadowed by a significant portion of the roster, and not really worth bringing into a mission anymore.

 

But to get back on topic...

58 minutes ago, (NSW)Royal_Elf_Mika said:

i agree 100%.

i kept trying to like ember, but she has too many issues, gauss is 1000x better with very similar (more like flat out superior) capabilities and like 1000x better user input.

I'm in the same boat.  I want to like Ember because I think DE should be praised for doing reworks of older frames.  But her rework, while largely effective, falls short in many areas:

1. Fireball shouldn't exist.  It's useless without the augment.
2. Immolation is clunky as hell.  The variable DR and energy cost is extremely unreliable and punitive.
3. Fireblast has DE's typically wonky LoS checks, making it unreliable.
4. Inferno doesn't do enough damage for Ember to really qualify as a nuker.  And turning her into competition for Saryn was one of the goals of the rework.

 

Gauss is a lot better in general.  My only real gripe with Gauss is the horrific sound effects associated with Thermal Sunder.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

Ember could mainly use buffs to her 1 and her 3 IMO, her other abilities do the job, and by nature she's always going to be a one trick pony because all she has is heat damage, so there's not much she can do beyond DoT and armor stripping, just with different animations.

56 minutes ago, (NSW)Royal_Elf_Mika said:

atleast Nyx has immortality and gigantic crowd control.

Qorvex is gonna render Nyx even more obsolete: he basically has Chaos as his passive and is tanky enough to not need an ability to survive. 

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

59 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Her immortality depends upon an augment to be even somewhat useable, and even then it's too punitive to be worthwhile when shield gating exists.  And Xaku has giant crowd control too.  Build them for max max max range and enough strength for the full strip on the 3.  Then use the 1st version of Xaku's 3rd ability (Accuse).  You can convert half the map.  Or, if you have a console host, you can likely convert every enemy the game can even spawn.  Unlike Nyx's CC, the enemies won't still shoot you.

 

Nyx enjoyed a brief period of relevance when Steel Path was new, CC still mattered, and armor stripping was a lot harder to do.  Now we have Helminth abilities that fully strip defenses with fewer restrictions than Nyx's psychic bolts.  And CC doesn't mean anywhere near as much as it did.  Nyx, as a result, is overshadowed by a significant portion of the roster, and not really worth bringing into a mission anymore.

 

But to get back on topic...

I'm in the same boat.  I want to like Ember because I think DE should be praised for doing reworks of older frames.  But her rework, while largely effective, falls short in many areas:

1. Fireball shouldn't exist.  It's useless without the augment.
2. Immolation is clunky as hell.  The variable DR and energy cost is extremely unreliable and punitive.
3. Fireblast has DE's typically wonky LoS checks, making it unreliable.
4. Inferno doesn't do enough damage for Ember to really qualify as a nuker.  And turning her into competition for Saryn was one of the goals of the rework.

 

Gauss is a lot better in general.  My only real gripe with Gauss is the horrific sound effects associated with Thermal Sunder.

 

59 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

Ember could mainly use buffs to her 1 and her 3 IMO, her other abilities do the job, and by nature she's always going to be a one trick pony because all she has is heat damage, so there's not much she can do beyond DoT and armor stripping, just with different animations.

Qorvex is gonna render Nyx even more obsolete: he basically has Chaos as his passive and is tanky enough to not need an ability to survive. 

ya, i agree with both of you. the only thing i can 100% say is nyx is a easy choice in content like steelpath circuit, if you have a good weapon or teammates with good weapons.

her immortality is also awful due to how slow you move with it (assimilate). but atleast with Nyx VS Xaku, nyx can bring something to the table thats "viable" unlike ember, especially since Chaos effects Eximus indirectly and can have a extreme duration/affect duration with the Chaos Sphere mod.

 

[SneakyErvin]

It really depends which playstyle you prefer. In endless there are few situations where you actually ever worry about energy on Ember, She is practically indestructible aswell, more so now with further natural DR on shields. I prefer neither Ember or Gauss atm, if I want a heavy nuke frame I rather beat people with dead horses as Dagath.

[0_The_F00l]

Technically yes (as longa s you only look at the two similar abilities) , but there are small enough differences to set them apart.

The DR for ember is universal but gauss is for specified damage types.

The aoe blast on ember is much larger , while gauss can cast more often in a smaller area.

That's pretty much where the similarities start and end.

[ReddyDisco]

Ember needs qol changes

[RichardKam]

2小时前 , (NSW)Royal_Elf_Mika 说:

 

ya, i agree with both of you. the only thing i can 100% say is nyx is a easy choice in content like steelpath circuit, if you have a good weapon or teammates with good weapons.

her immortality is also awful due to how slow you move with it (assimilate). but atleast with Nyx VS Xaku, nyx can bring something to the table thats "viable" unlike ember, especially since Chaos effects Eximus indirectly and can have a extreme duration/affect duration with the Chaos Sphere mod.

 

Xaku might be a better Nyx and all but for someone who have no interest in looking at a skeleton with zero fashion sense for more than 5 mins, Nyx is infinitely better.

Nyx, Xaku, Ember, Gauss, whatever. Given the powercreep today you can do whatever you wanted in any mission. That's the beauty of powercreep is it not?

[trst]

Spoken like someone who doesn't play Ember.

 

Ember's armor strip has over twice the base range and arguably takes less work to maintain full stripping with than Gauss' double cast Sunder while Redline is active and above 80% battery.

Ember's DR works against all damage vs Gauss only blocking physical, cold, heat, and blast damages. Also Ember's meter has no negative either if you know how to actually use it. Plus hers isn't reduced just by taking damage.

While it might be unfair to factor in augments since Gauss somehow still just has two it's still a consideration that Ember can grant 50% DR to allies, generate large amounts of energy orbs, and can self-sustain with a heal. Compared to Gauss just getting a conditional grouping ability.

There's also their weapon buff augments where Gauss gets two 75% base buffs vs Ember's one for 100%. But Ember's has a longer base duration and applies to abilities that scale off weapon mods. It also benefits from her passive where I believe Gauss' does not.

Also Ember's nuking has a far larger range than Gauss'. Plus due to how enemies "respawn" if left unkilled Inferno can actually propagate throughout several rooms in a non-stationary mission.

And lets just be perfectly honest and admit that Thermal Sunder is an overtuned ability. An absolutely indisputable fact considering how popular it is via Helminth despite it being nerfed on other frames. I'd bet Gauss' play rate would take a nose dive if Sunder was ever nerfed.

 

Edit: Also I forgot to mention that Ember's passive works for Helminth abilities where Gauss' only buffs his base abilities and shield regen.

Edited November 26, 2023 by trst

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

Yes Ember also has a terrible first ability, how on earth do you have an ability that gets buffed by itself, a combo multiplier, another ability, and still does crap damage?

a lot of these first abilities with combo multipliers are completely pointless, like Rhino charge, why would you use the combo on Rhino charge if it's not for mobility I guess?

[Skoomaseller]

correct, like how yareli is a better nezha 😎

 

[Marvelous_A]

6 hours ago, trst said:

Spoken like someone who doesn't play Ember.

 

Ember's armor strip has over twice the base range and arguably takes less work to maintain full stripping with than Gauss' double cast Sunder while Redline is active and above 80% battery.

Ember's DR works against all damage vs Gauss only blocking physical, cold, heat, and blast damages. Also Ember's meter has no negative either if you know how to actually use it. Plus hers isn't reduced just by taking damage.

While it might be unfair to factor in augments since Gauss somehow still just has two it's still a consideration that Ember can grant 50% DR to allies, generate large amounts of energy orbs, and can self-sustain with a heal. Compared to Gauss just getting a conditional grouping ability.

There's also their weapon buff augments where Gauss gets two 75% base buffs vs Ember's one for 100%. But Ember's has a longer base duration and applies to abilities that scale off weapon mods. It also benefits from her passive where I believe Gauss' does not.

Also Ember's nuking has a far larger range than Gauss'. Plus due to how enemies "respawn" if left unkilled Inferno can actually propagate throughout several rooms in a non-stationary mission.

And lets just be perfectly honest and admit that Thermal Sunder is an overtuned ability. An absolutely indisputable fact considering how popular it is via Helminth despite it being nerfed on other frames. I'd bet Gauss' play rate would take a nose dive if Sunder was ever nerfed.

 

Edit: Also I forgot to mention that Ember's passive works for Helminth abilities where Gauss' only buffs his base abilities and shield regen.

If you actually play then you know everything sounds good on paper until the hard reality hit you in the face.

Ember fails at the fire and nuke department and the only infinitely scaling fire ability in this game goes to boi who runs really fast. Range matters most in SC level because everything dies if you sneeze at them. Ember isn't relevent as a nuke on high level because her damage output falls behind severely despite her huge ability range. Also LoS exists in this game.

Ember is also counter intuitive to play. Why is FB so expensive to cast if it's a crucial part of immolation balance anyway? And you reset the gauge you lost the bonus on abilities. All her abilities work best at max heat gauge except the gauge itself doesn't work that good at max level. Contradiction much?

She's still very much viable in SP level, just not excels in anything. We really could use Accelerant for the current Ember and the old fire ring that offers 50% heat weapon damage (which was niche back then but fire damage is much better now).

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

You can also Helminth Thermal Sunder onto any frame you want, make all kinds of Better Embers....

for yet another slap in Ember's face.

[Skoomaseller]

5 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

You can also Helminth Thermal Sunder onto any frame you want, make all kinds of Better Embers....

for yet another slap in Ember's face.

>tfw a psycho murderer and a priest are better at arson than an arsonist